[Rollercoasterider]

Onward and others...

Thank you so much for the questions--and I like how you tend toward good questions that challenge--I don't mean mentally, but challenge in the sense of pushing back. I knew this would be a controversial topic and we discussed the post ahead of time at the mod board and trust me not everyone is or was pleased about it! The hope-reality balance was a big issue and it is something I am always looking at.

I am now posting not to answer questions, but to let you know I have seen them but that I am busy at least for tomorrow--I have an all day parenting class tomorrow--and I think I really need to focus on family through Halloween--since we have only Sunday left for Pumpkin carving and then I've got to plan our Halloween day/night...and that will be exciting. The kids understand the concept now and are TOTALLY excited.

[Onward]

Onward, could you clarify\detail for me what you mean as to the inherent contradiction we all deal with in your comments?  I am afraid I'm not sure that I understand what you are referring to exactly, and don't want to miss your point or guess at it.

Is it reality versus hope?
Time it takes versus too long?
Faith based versus other approaches?
Standing still versus moving forward?
Am I in the ball park?  Or am I as lost as the Cubs were tonight? 
Lp

LP, the inherent contradiction I see is in the role of time, and what is often written here about time.

MLC takes time. A spouse in MLC must work through the MLC before they return -- if they return at all.
Yet, the longer a couple is apart, the less likely a return.

If an LBS believes in the process of MLC, time must do its work.
Yet, an LBS who trusts the process is working against the odds.

There are perceptions that an LBS standing for a long time is waiting or stuck.
Yet, an LBS who hopes for reconciliation must be open to standing for a long time.
These are contradictions.

I personally think reality and hope learned to live harmoniously a very long time ago.

I’m not sure what you are referring to in regards to faith based versus other approaches.  Perhaps you mean approaches to MLC?  I think different people will have different bases of belief from which they will make individual decisions regarding how to respond to MLC.
If someone claimed to believe certain things, and then behaved in a ways contrary to those beliefs, they might have internal conflict, but that’s a different matter.

There are many differences of view regarding what, precisely, constitutes standing still and what constitutes moving forward.  So no, that wasn’t what I was referring to.

[terrified_in_TN]

I have to agree with Onward-I noticed the contradiction, but didn't post to point it out.  I figure learning about the MLC "process" is an ongoing effort and therefore a moving target as things are observed.

I can't find it now, but there was an article that stated "MLC takes Time.  A LOT of time."  Although I did find an article with that exact title, it doesn't read like I remember (or maybe it was edited?).  In any case it gave an example if you are "18 months from BD, your spouse is in replay.  If you are 3 years from BD your spouse is still likely in replay."

And then to find RR's recent blog post that suggest that the further distanced by time from BD the less likely a return is a contradiction to that earlier article I attempted to find.

In all honesty, I appreciate the harsh truth of diminishing odds with time.  When we ALL land here I think we all try to find the magic fix, and want to know the odds.  I think we ALL just want to save our marriages and have life turn back to "normal" again.  Reading the articles gave one a sense that this is all "temporary", but lengthy.  It gives one the needed hope.  RR made it crystal clear that there were NO guarantees, but the articles "read" like most will WANT to try and return.

One of the things I did when I arrived here was to search out all the journey's with purple icons [haven't we all done that?].  While I realize there are no real reliable statistics, I did notice a "trend" with the majority of the "purple" that suggest that the majority of those return in a relatively short timeframe-around 2 years or less.  It *seems* like based on that alone, that most of the "returners" realize quite quickly that they made a mistake quite early on.  [I acknowledge that it is also possible they weren't "fully cooked" when some of them returned as well being the timeline was relatively short].

Anyway, this latest post stating that the further distance by time one is from BD the less chances of a return do seem to line up with what I'm seeing in the forums.

Again although the contradiction, I do applaud the most recent post and believe it should somehow be incorporated in the main articles.  The new-comer absolutely needs HOPE upon arrival-but I think they also need the cruel reality of the odds.

-T

[OldPilot]

Again although the contradiction, I do applaud the most recent post and believe it should somehow be incorporated in the main articles.  The new-comer absolutely needs HOPE upon arrival-but I think they also need the cruel reality of the odds.

Thank you for this comment.

RCR can speak for herself and of course so can others.
There has been much discussion about this going on behind the scenes.
I can only relate my own timeline which is going on 7 and a half years from bomb drop and 8 years from
the  trigger event.
Although I have seen some movement in MLC for the most part there is none.
Now maybe my ex was never in MLC and just has permanent depression which midlife set into
full view.

I really think that the point of all this is that we must concentrate on ourselves and not worry about
the person that we have absolutely no control over.
It is amazing to me how codependent, conflict avoiding, enablers seem to always make up
the LBS population.
I think that those are things that we all need to work on.

[Mitzpah]

At the 'height' of my almost six years in this (and on this site ), I would like to say that when we are freshly BDed, we are desperately looking for hope. I went to a therapist in the following week and I was horrified at the way she shot my yearning for hope down - Needless to say, she didn't last

The balance between hope and the harsh reality needs to be gently reconciled and I think HS with its kind and caring people along with RCR's articles were instrumental for me in the beginning and carefully guided me to acceptance in my time.

Thank you Onward for your brief allusion to this:

I’m sorry to blunt in making this point, but I can’t imagine telling a friend with a cancer diagnosis, “I don't want to discourage you. But, you know, the odds aren’t good.”

As many of you know, my son was diagnosed with brain cancer at the age of 13, we had a doctor (top brain surgeon) tell us that all that was left were 'safe'  palliative resources and another who wanted to defy the odds and operate. We went with the latter surgeon - my son is cured with minimum side effects. My sister was diagnosed at the end of last year and we tried all the agressive resources we could, she died two months ago at the age of 52.

The odds were not good at all, in both cases we went with hope, dealing with the reality that was thrown into our faces day after day. We knew there were no guarantees and we fully trusted God for the outcome in both cases. Why did my son live? Why did my dear sister die?

I continue to stand for my dead marriage, for the full restoration of my family, in the hope that one day, the miracle will come.
In the meantime, I live my life as fully and productively as I can, facing the reality of loneliness, tight finances, kid issues (they never end, do they?), and being still, knowing that God will be exalted, regardless of the outcome in my lifetime.

[Beacon]

After reading the responses I tend to look at reconciliation as meeting again on a different level at a different time. It will be brand new. I look at is my MLC W and our marriage is gone. I am standing yet I am moving forward in my life and doing things for me. I haven't dated yet and have no urge to at this point because I am enjoying doing things for me. I may date casually in the future who knows. I go day by day. If my MLC W exits the tunnel this year or in 5 years and wishes to come back I will approach it as something new. Like a first date all over again. When I look at the situation in this way it helps me to detach and say what we had is gone, IF we have something again it will be brand new. She may never return and that will be OK also because I have and am moving forward and have done so without her. My love for her is still present and our connection we shared will never fade but there is that harsh reality of the unknown.

Just my thoughts on reconciliation.

[Mitzpah]

I continue to stand for my dead marriage, for the full restoration of my family, in the hope that one day, the miracle will come.
In the meantime, I live my life as fully and productively as I can, facing the reality of loneliness, tight finances, kid issues (they never end, do they?), and being still, knowing that God will be exalted, regardless of the outcome in my lifetime.

I realize that maybe the sentence above may be misleading... I look forward, my marriage is nonexistent, legally speaking and the old marriage is truly dead. What I mean is standing for reconciliation and a 'new' marriage with my h. and father of my children.

[nah]

Quote from Onward

Since this is a “discussion” thread, and not a “full agreement” thread, I did want to share how some of the messages in this post landed with me, though.

I thought long and hard about posting this, even slept on it, because in many ways it is easiest to just let it go. Then there's also that niggling thing about teaching others how to treat you....so.....

Even though RCR has stated she is not trying to destroy hope, and I believe that, there are aspects of this post that I did find quite discouraging.


Onward, you brought up some very good points, and I was thinking the very same things.

The balance is tricky, we want to encourage hope, be gentle with the "newbies" yet what about reality? 

In the early days when he was stomping all over my heart, I kept repeating out loud, "it's part of the process, he needs time".  Literally out loud over and over just so I could breath.   At the time, If I read on this site that the longer it takes the less chance I had, it would have put me over the edge.  I just know it would.  I could breath b/c I believed the time away was good, it's the only way I could get through the day.

Yes, I now know that most returners seem to come back on the earlier side, and most seem to be still cooking.  I'm not sure if I would have wanted to know that in the early days b/c mine was way gone, and at the time what seemed to me as a hard core vanisher.  Again, the type of MLCer that seems to be less likely to return.  Should we tell the newbies that too?  It has been discussed on this site before but with a little side note that most likely because LBSers of vanishers are less likely to take them back as they are more use to them being gone.  See the little twist of hope?  I thought, "well, that won't be me" (even though, it is me but at the time I needed hope). 

In the early days when I mentioned on this forum that mine was a vanisher the mentors basically told me not to worry, that some need that space more than others.  I thought, "oh good, its not so bad".  Also, my "vanisher" once called me out of the blue about two months after he left to say, "Hi"... because of the advise on this site I brushed him off, thinking it was too early.  Then I second guessed myself, thinking it was my only shot.  A very respected mentor on this site said it was too early and he probably only would have left again. 

So was I wrong to brush him off?  Do we need to scramble more in the early days because the clock is ticking?.... OR is time a gift?

It seems confusing at a time when newbies are already in a puddle of distress.

[Songanddance]

RR made it crystal clear that there were NO guarantees, but the articles "read" like most will WANT to try and return.

I can see how the articles might be misinterpreted that most would want to try to return but in the article Midlife crisis - the overview -section on Liminality there is one very telling sentence which struck me to the core when I read it not long after BD.

RCR says that this is often where they make the decision to return to the marriage or not; she also says that this is not always the final final final decision but it usually can be. Nevertheless this is at liminality and most of the early returners on the forum have not hit liminality so the timeline for these early returners is quite short.

Not all of the purple icons are early returners and not all of them were vanishers or CBs that have returned. 

Stayed has a marvellous story about a very good friend of hers whose H just disappeared and over three+ years later asked to see her again. Apparently her friend was convinced that he would be seeking D but instead he wanted to return and he did.

There are quite a few stories either as threads or from forum members who know of returners who are/were well outside the 2 year mark. RCR is very clear in her articles that 2 years is a general early average for possible early returners as in marking the end of replay. This is not a guarantee that the return will last and indeed her own story is very informative on repeated returns and how she handled it.

[nah]

Most reconciliations happen in the early years. That is not to say that they do not happen later, but the odds go down with time.

For me, this is the quote that I am struggling with...

Don't get me wrong, I think like most of RCR's articles it is informative and well written.  It's just in the early days I read and read each article many times and took them to heart.  If I read this I would have been distraught that the clock was ticking and I feel I would have become even more desperate, if that's even possible.

I understood that there was no guarantees but I was digging like crazy for statistics, time lines, anything that would help me beat the odds.  If I thought time was against me instead of patience and time being my best warrior, I would have spiraled down even deeper in despair. 

Yes, believe me I know,...we are supposed to focus on ourselves.  Newbies never do this, we ALWAYS focus on the MLCers in the beginning.  So how is telling them that odds go down with time help them?  Now instead of learning to focus on ourselves, we feel pressured to hurry up and figure a way to get our spouse back.

I would anyways....