[Adia]

What about holding them accountable during the mayhem? After three years he did finally divorce me and in this 4th year is still with OW, and is still in contact. I have a difficult time not saying some hard truths to him at times...always have spoken my mind with him because I certainly do not think he should get to 'rug sweep' his actions just because we are divorced now.

Stayed, you reminded me of some things my X told me when he was in treatment for drugs n alcohol.

The counselors and the others trying to heal do not let you get away with sweeping things under the rug or making excuses for what you have done.  Nope, the hold their feet to the fire until they see, understand and admit the gravity of what they have done, the hurt they have caused.
Until they see real remorse.

That's when the healing starts.

And this too. I have an (recovering) addict son and I have always held him accountable for his actions and choices. I do not see why my exh should have an escape from reality.

[Ready2Transform]

They have no motivation to be accountable to us when they are checked out and done with the marriage, no matter how nuts any of that is. I think that's why boundaries are so valuable for us. It is the only thing that will give us control back. When they DO want the marriage or at least the stability of the home again, that's when you have leverage to hold them accountable.

[Adia]

Thank you Ready2. I think this is true and have often felt that I need to do a lot more mirror work on this matter. It's incredible difficult at times when I feel that everything is on me, I have been the one taking care of my son(s) and trying to help him stay clean. I do not want to become the bitter one because of my circumstances, as I know I would be there for my sons no matter where my relationship status stood. Would be nice to have some assistance though

[Ready2Transform]

HUGS. I can't even imagine what must be on your shoulders. If friends and family aren't able to be part of your support network, I know many around here have gotten a huge value out of Al-Anon. You should NOT have to go through this alone just because your H is off the rails.

It's been one of the hardest things for me to accept that mine was able to make such a clean emotional break, due to mental illness or decision or otherwise, but it definitely has helped bring down my level of expectation in him.

[Adia]

HUGS to you as well. I've tried the Al-Anon but the beast that I deal with is not alcohol, and that's where it felt centered on. I do know that whatever the DOC (drug of choice) is that of course, some of the same practices apply. In the end though, it is the addicts choice to face their demons and change. Somewhat like an mlc'er, I suppose.

[stayed]

Boundaries are important, for ourselves as well.  I mean that in the sense that we have to set our own boundaries about what we are not going to allow ourselves to do as well.  We have to set rules for ourselves as much as for our MLCer. 

The truth is Adia, it probably doesn't do much good speaking your mind, at least not to the way your h thinks.  If it HONESTLY makes you feel better, then that alone, makes it worth doing.  The thing is, you need to be pretty sure that it is making you feel better because sadly, it is very easy to find yourself very bitter and very angry, especially when you have been left to deal, completely on your own, with a very loved child that is dealing with addiction, depression or even a physical illness. 

It's you that MATTERS Adia.  You and your sons.  Focus on you.  Remember, we all have to face our Maker some day. Your h's day before a higher court will come.  For now, the most important thing is you and your sons, especially the one who is battling an addiction.  Believe it or not Adia, seeing the way you are handling your MLCer's betrayal, has to be motivational to your son. 

Hugs Stayed

[beyondblessed]

Not all come  back for the right reasons.

Actually, I think they return believing they can control the return.  They want to return to exactly what they had without any repercussion or consequences.  Just my opinion but it seems to me that the returns that fail, are the ones where the LBS's allowed that to happen.  This is probably one of the few times when a partner has "leverage" over the other.  Not a nice way to put this, but if you want a new, improved partner then somebody has to make that happen, because MLCer's really do not want to revisit the past or "mirror work" or do stuff like that.  They would much prefer,  ALL IS FORGIVEN and forgotten... now let's just carry on as though nothing happened. 

Definitely this can and is forgiven.  Forgiveness is just as much for ourselves as it for the sinner.  That being said.. we NEVER forget.  Nor should it ever be forgotten. 

Just my opinion... completely! 

Hugs Stayed

If they return in the same state of irresponsibility and wanting to be non-accountable for their actions, then what is it they have actually accomplished  and what purpose did their escapes actually serve?  Have I wrongly been under the belief that this time "away" for them was supposed to help them sort things out.

If you just take them back in the same condition they left...many times after years of them having been away, how in the world would you expect it to work?  It would be in essence as if the time away was nothing more than an escape for them...not a time of healing, improvement, and healing.  Just a time for them to be free of you.

[Adia]

Boundaries are important, for ourselves as well.  I mean that in the sense that we have to set our own boundaries about what we are not going to allow ourselves to do as well.  We have to set rules for ourselves as much as for our MLCer. 

The truth is Adia, it probably doesn't do much good speaking your mind, at least not to the way your h thinks.  If it HONESTLY makes you feel better, then that alone, makes it worth doing.  The thing is, you need to be pretty sure that it is making you feel better because sadly, it is very easy to find yourself very bitter and very angry, especially when you have been left to deal, completely on your own, with a very loved child that is dealing with addiction, depression or even a physical illness. 

It's you that MATTERS Adia.  You and your sons.  Focus on you.  Remember, we all have to face our Maker some day. Your h's day before a higher court will come.  For now, the most important thing is you and your sons, especially the one who is battling an addiction.  Believe it or not Adia, seeing the way you are handling your MLCer's betrayal, has to be motivational to your son. 

Hugs Stayed

As usual Stayed, your thoughts & comments are valuable advise.
And the fact is that speaking my mind to him, just makes me sad mostly. You should never have to remind a parent that they have children.

To keep the focus on this discussion thread-RCR's post almost felt like a sign to me and my situation BECAUSE that's what I was feeling/reading into it, not BECAUSE she was personally advising me to do anything. As time passes for me, I'm no longer certain of to my stand. I know that the man that I loved, gets further and further away and I have so much other to focus on; my sons, work, financials and so on.
Adia

[Ready2Transform]

If you just take them back in the same condition they left...many times after years of them having been away, how in the world would you expect it to work?  It would be in essence as if the time away was nothing more than an escape for them...not a time of healing, improvement, and healing.  Just a time for them to be free of you.

That's why it is called "Escape and Avoid" as a stage. That is literally what they are doing. I've not seen, in his many years gone, my xH do anything but crash and burn through businesses and jobs, relationships, and integrity.

Nothing happens until Liminality per RCR's stages, if they ever hit it. From http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality.html

Liminal Depression is a consequence of Replay behaviour. Replay spending results in bills and losses of things that are no longer affordable--not merely Replay luxuries such as the sports car, but also the loss of former possessions and savings (house, car, pension etc.). Financial losses can be significant, but more devastating is the loss of Self and potential, the loss of marriage, health, self-worth due to losses and guilt, and the loss of escape as Replay no longer produces a high. Everything leading up to Liminal Depression was preparation; the real work begins here.

It really is the reason why it's so important we get to acceptance asap and start the self-focus. Even if they do hit this, it's a long haul to get there.

[hawk]

What about holding them accountable during the mayhem? After three years he did finally divorce me and in this 4th year is still with OW, and is still in contact. I have a difficult time not saying some hard truths to him at times...always have spoken my mind with him because I certainly do not think he should get to 'rug sweep' his actions just because we are divorced now.

Stayed, you reminded me of some things my X told me when he was in treatment for drugs n alcohol.

The counselors and the others trying to heal do not let you get away with sweeping things under the rug or making excuses for what you have done.  Nope, the hold their feet to the fire until they see, understand and admit the gravity of what they have done, the hurt they have caused.
Until they see real remorse.

That's when the healing starts.

And this too. I have an (recovering) addict son and I have always held him accountable for his actions and choices. I do not see why my exh should have an escape from reality.

l've gotta admit.
Mine has been so sensitive and volatile in 4yrs l've hardly said one thing about all this .Only things related to my d and ex nearly always brushed those over with things like - oh we can do this or she'll be ok or just brushed it off completely.

But we had a fight a few mths back about  a credit card , it blew up a bit and for the first time really , l said something that l'd felt like saying for yrs.
l said you destroyed her family [ my d's ] and now your acting like this in front of her.

Well , for the first time she hasn't talked to me since .
20 yrs together and now she hasn't talked to me in 2mths and this makes it very hard for d and to keep each other in the loop with all things d. Which we'd at least done really well up until that fight and me saying that.

But she had it coming , l still think that , but it's just that it has totally messed up our parenting now and has been a very emotional time for me since knowing our 20yrs has come to this.

So l'm not sure about making them accountable or maybe l just did it wrong , gotta be careful about it l think and the way it's said but l was pretty damn pissed and had been carrying that inside for 3yrs and letting her of Scot free.
Gotta admit though ,bc of the sitch with my d now , l really wish l'd just shut the fk up at the time and not poked the bear .

Still hoping in time we can get back on track and it blows over.