[Dji76]

I agree with the idea of it being easier for broken people to find a relationship. Those are need based relationships and something I would no longer want any part of. Someone asked on another thread if everyone is broken and should we just accept it. I think we all have some level of broken but its a choice as to how much we allow that to control our thoughts and actions.

[beyondblessed]

The term broken seems extreme to me.  Yes, the MLC'er is beyond broken, but most people are not that extreme in their psyche.  Everyone has quirks and flaws, but not everyone decides to blow their worlds apart without a second thought.

As difficult as it is to accept....these are not now, and very likely never will be again the people we once trusted with our very beings.  That person who left us high and dry at BD is who they are now.  So if you are a covenant stander you may be in for a lifetime of playing the waiting game. That's not how I'm going down.  Life was meant to be lived and that's exactly what I am doing and will continue to do.

[nah]

As difficult as it is to accept....these are not now, and very likely never will be again the people we once trusted with our very beings.  That person who left us high and dry at BD is who they are now.  So if you are a covenant stander you may be in for a lifetime of playing the waiting game.

That's if we assume standing means waiting.  Yes, this happens but it's also what we are trying to teach people what not to do, standing is not supposed to be just waiting and watching.  Just the opposite.

This time away is supposed to help us detach, find ourselves and in the meantime it gives us a clearer lens at what our marriage really was, not just what we thought it was.  I thought mine was near perfect, it wasn't.  Some might be surprised (as I am done) that looking back, mine was pretty darn good though, not perfect but good.  I have many great memories that I will always hold dear, yes the year before BD, BD and beyond sucked, but before that time, my marriage wasn't terrible.

So will the Leaver ever be capable of being exactly like the person I once trusted?  Of course not, whether he finds his way out or not, we both will always be changed, time and experiences good or bad does that to people.  This man I knew and loved for 25+ years changed, made bad decisions and ran away.  Is it possible that he will change again and make different hopefully more reasonable decisions in the future?

If he changed his mind once, why not again?

Too bad for them, by the time they do, usually the person who was left is gone.

I have said this several times, what disappoints me about this article is I personally disagree with the statement about time.  Yes i agree that most seem to reconcile on the earlier side, but my opinion is because on the earlier side the person who was left wasn't yet done.  If my husband changed his mind within the first 2-3 years, I would have taken him back.  Now that 3+ years have gone by, I have done so much GALing that I really don't want to deal with his nonsense anymore.  I had a lot to offer so someone else scooped me up.  I always said my husband was textbook MLC, well, turns out, I'm textbook too.  Why work on a mess with him when I can be treated with respect and love by someone else?

Lately I do see changes with the Leaver, he was a vanisher who has been sniffing around.  If I was a stander, then I feel within the next year or two, we would have had a very good chance.

So, yes, I do believe they can come out of this mess.  Unfortunately for him, and many like him, life went on while he was in la-la land.

[beyondblessed]

And I agree with everything you've just said, Nah.  Choices were made, lives were disrupted.  I'm not saying things can't be fixed, but I think way too many things would have to in alignment for it to be likely with most couples

Nothing is impossible, I'm just saying it isn't likely.  Every relationship had it's good and bad.  Mine was average for the most part, and now that I'm single again for the 1st time in 18 years....I've had more than my share of attention from men than I ever did in my 20's.  And after dealing with xh's nonsense and bs, it is exactly what I needed to start carving my own path and my own identity.  I was the perfect co-dependent, and this detachment from him and our M is what I needed too, even though I wish he hadn't  gone crazy in the process.

[calamity]

Good post Nah.  You've saved me a ton of writing.

[Anjae]

The term broken seems extreme to me.  Yes, the MLC'er is beyond broken, but most people are not that extreme in their psyche.  Everyone has quirks and flaws, but not everyone decides to blow their worlds apart without a second thought.

I agree, most people are not that extreme and most likely are not broken. They just have their quirks and flaws.

For me it is more a question of personal development and being in the same page. Not easy.

Agree, Nah.

[Velika]

I think I am the person who said that everyone is broken. Maybe broken is a very dramatic word for simply -- in a process.

I think it takes a type of humility to be able to examine that process openly and honestly. I feel as a result of this LBS experience I value this type of sincerity, even sort of a fumbling honesty, more than ever.

Or maybe as Leonard Cohen wrote (it's everywhere today):

"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."

[Medusa]

Great post, Nah.

Even if we do no work, we change because life goes on. We have to come to terms with that, and it's not easy. Both the MLCer and LBS will have experienced that shape them. Even if the MLCer forgets chunks of what he did, the LBS has to come to terms with our memories. That, I would guess, is one of the most difficult parts of reconciliation.

We have levels of brokenness. When we do the mirror work, we learn what is and isn't acceptable to us. We hopefully realize that at our age, everyone is going to have some baggage. Even if we reconcile.

[lawprofessor]

I went back and re-read what you ever wrote, LP.

I found this quite interesting:

Therefore, no assurance that without the broken parts meshing, we would be a solid couple with a viable future.

Sometimes I wonder if a little (or a lot) of brokeness is what makes some couples viable. And if so, is it so bad to have some brokeness present?

Somehow, from my personal experience, healed, or more healed people, have a hard time find a mate. At least, I have. It was much, much easier when I was not healed. Or was less developed (when I was younger). Now it is like I am on a level and most people are in another.

And I am probably being too choosy and wanting a certain level that may not be available.

Happy birthday, LP.

Anjae and others as not all is directed at Anjae, just general discussion ,
Personally I differentiate between brokenness and being human, having human weaknesses and personality traits.

Brokenness is exemplified here most often in my thoughts as levels of codependency.  It is the spouse who sees no reason to live without the partner.  It is the spouse who cannot define themselves without reference to the other spouse.  It is the lbs standing still.  It is the lbs hanging on every word or action of the mlc person.  It is sacrificing ones self for the other.  Its the inability to understand the mlc person isn't the person you married.  Its the inability to face that the mlc spouse doesn't currently care what you want or how this impacts you.  It's the screaming that I don't have mirror work to do, he's the one with the problem.  Its the inability to see the broken parts meshed so both had broken parts.  Its the inability to see the difference between toxic enabling and healthy strong boundaries.  Its being unable or unwilling toaintain healthy boundaries.  Its the constant cry of "why\how did he do this to me? . Its the conflict avoidant approach to life's challenges, not opening the mailbox, not standing up for ones self, being beaten down and behaving like a martyr or victim especially in the hopes the mlc person (and others) will see this as a measure of your love.  Its clinging to HS as a part of your identity, coming here day after day, hour after hour, avoiding making a new life, new friends, new interests and moving forward.  And everything else that falls under the label of codependency and the like.  Being a fixer is a huge flag of brokenness.  As is being controlling which is part of being a fixer.

Human traits are not brokenness per se.  They are simpler things such as a tendency to be introverted versus extroverted.  A tendency to prefer specific activities to others.  Perhaps you have a thought process that prefers more logical thought patterns versus someone who is earthier and likes shades of gray.  The trait only tends towards brokenness when there is intolerance and an inability to think outside the box and consider other ways of understanding.  We need both skills although one is usually a stronger easier fit.  For example, a computer, math, engineering type thinker should be able to also exercise and appreciate and even understand a part of the person who is more artistic, a gray thinker, a bit more abstract.  There are times when exercising both sides of the brain is enriching even necessary to leading a happy fulfilled life.  Being unable to do that is a sign of brokenness. 

So for me brokenness comes from human tendencies gone awry.  There is a significant difference between preferring your spouse handle paying the bills as he is an accountant and you cook the meals as you are a chef AND you being unable to pay the bills because you have no idea how and are too scared to open the mail so you conflict avoid and hide your head in the sand.  As well if youre the accountant in the example and you choose to starve versus learn to cook a simple meal. 

You see, a healthy relationship means that both the chef and the accountant eat and pat their bills.  And both take an interest in the skills of another so that both parties are appreciated and knowledgeable.  Partnership.

Many find in retrospect that they didn't have a balanced partnership.  Both sides were at fault for that as both were part of the marriage.  That doesn't mean one didn't love the spouse or that they are rearing history.  Instead it means their definition of healthy and broken has evolved as they got healthier. 

So to get to your comment, to paraphrase, I don't believe some brokenness is necessary in a relationship.  Human characteristics and qualities are necessary.  That is where true meshing and appreciation creates a beautiful marriage partnership where the two parties respect each others similarities and differences.  But the key is respect.  Without respect there is no love.  Respect doesn't involve taking the other person for granted either.  It means surprising the chef with a prepared dinner at times because sometimes the chef may not feel like cooking. 
Yes it is easier to find a mate when broken to various degrees.  There is much brokenness in the world.  However for me, I'd rather be single than be a half of broken team.  I've already done that once and its no fun and no longer suits my wants in life.  As well the reality is there are healthy as well as broken people in the world and one is only single as long as they choose to be for the most part.  Healthy attracts healthy but at times broken as well.  When the lbs gets healthier, the mlc person may be attracted as they need to draw strength from the healthy person.  Its still an unhealthy relationship at that point if the lbs accepts contact but more of draining emotionally and a huge test of all the lbs has learned.  To remain healthy while the sickness remains encapsulated in the mlc person as they work on becoming healthier.

I see some talk of if I get healthier and stronger will I risk getting too healthy to have him back.  Yes you might. BUT:  When one asks that it is a symptom of them still being broken.  To choose to stay ill in order to possibly mesh with broken is a train wreck waiting to happen.  A waste of the experience and self abusive.  Would you choose to have cancer just because your spouse has cancer and says he will leave if you don't also get cancer?  No, not likely.  Little difference here.  In this case of a possible return the mlc person has the option of working to get healthy or not.  The lbs has the option of giving it a chance, and walking if after a reasonable time the mlc person fails to make progress getting healthy.  But the strength needed to live that choice is easier coming from a healthy person that a broken person. 

Yes, no person is perfect but a healthy person has core respect, healthy boundaries, and is able to appreciate others for what they are, which is translates to being able to attract a healthy partner if they chose and the skills to differentiate between a healthy relationship and an unhealthy relationship. 

We make our own choices and are 100% responsible for those choices. 

Lp

[Anjae]

Thank you for your reply, LP.