[Dji76]

RE - Id like to take a stab at this. Honestly, who cares what someone else wants you to be. Work on being the best version of the man YOU want to be and the right people will come into your life, the wrong ones will exit. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. In my experience women want a man, not another girl friend. A little assertiveness and confidence goes a long way in this age of using the internet to avoid rejection when dating. I think when people are offended by how someone else presents themselves it speaks to their own insecurities. Especially online. We are all adults here and have been through some real sh!t, a few choice words should not be so frowned upon.

As for the grudges, I look at it as people still working through their own anger. Personal attacks like "Ill play your game" when RE is asking a sincere question are non sense. I appreciate all the work that the mods do but there should be an understanding and empathy for the fact that many are still healing... I had to leave hs when I was in the anger phase because I wanted to lash out at people who appeared weak to me. I could only see weakness in others because I could still see it in myself and I hated it.

RE, I did the same in my marriage, I let my guard down. Never again my friend, never again. I am focused on my personal development, raising my kids and my other goals. I happen to have met someone that fits nicely into that reality and appreciates what I am doing. The time we do have together is all about each other but we have our own lives and matters to attend to. I no longer look at love as being together all the time and having a dependent connection. For me it is all about supporting each other to be the best version of ourselves, appreciating and respecting our needs for time and space to accomplish goals and maintain friendships. I think when we are so focused on what the other person wants is when we lose ourselves in the relationship and in that regard I think women lose respect for a man that has lost respect for himself.

[Finding Hope]

Oh GEEEEEEEEEEz, here we go again

FH

[ruggedendurance]

It was just a question.     And the language that offended OP was descriptive of how nauseated I was with myself.......

I was just hoping for some honest feedback.    To those that took a shot at it.

Thanks

[lawprofessor]

Hello Rugged,
Nice to hear your "voice" again.  I've missed you. 

Personally I find nothing attractive about a feminized man.  But some people define that differently. 

Yes, some women want a doormat as they are easier to control.  And those women are just as broken as the man they attract.  Broken attracts broken.

A person does not truly love a person they do not respect.  Not in a healthy manner as real love begins from the solid basis of respect.

So you see a more feminized version of yourself came to be during the marriage? Yeah that's what I mean when I say so many of us lost ourselves in the marriage.  Nows the time to be the man you lost and better.  I've talked to you.  I know there's a good man there. 

That said we swing through this like a pendulum before settling somewhere in the middle.  Manly doesn't mean giant a$$hole control freak.  Manly doesn't mean pu$$y either. 

Rugged some of us show pain by anger.  You and I do that.  Its hard for others to see that.  It makes them uncomfortable, scares them, especially if they are already conflict avoidant types.  Its easier for them if we are a crying puddle on the floor that they can pour sympathy and understanding on.  So  OK, I just figure we are an acquired taste.  Not everyone can handle a good strong bourban you know?  Some prefer a Shirley Temple.

Yes, women often want to change a man and look for potential.  But a healthy woman wants the core man she fell in love with to remain and grow.  She wants to add a bit of polish maybe and him to her.  Not change the real man.  I love introducing a man to new interests like movies, hobbies, food, art, a better cut pair of pants, a new place to vacation, new friends.  And I hope he does the same with me.  I want him to bring something to the table as well as being able to appreciate what I bring to the table besides my a$$.  I'm not looking for a yes man or my long lost twin, a man that is intimidated by me or who tries to control me. 

Many years ago I dated a man that taught me how to rebuild a motorcycle from the frame up.  Who would have know that I'd turn out to love mechanical work.  (Right now I'm doing the engine on an old triumph). Not terribly feminine for some but not my problem.  I taught him to paint.  He now restores old tanks and has a pretty good side business doing that.  And NOBODY thinks he's not manly even though he discovered he has an artistic side.

4 years is a long time in hell.  Wear your battle scars proudly as a new man.  Well I've rambled enough.  Time to get back to work.

Lp

[Absolutely Fabulous]

DJ, these 2 ( OP and Rugged ) have a history. That what I meant by grudges. I just wanted to clarify this.

[Absolutely Fabulous]

As per usual, we'll stated LP.

[OldPilot]

DJ, these 2 ( OP and Rugged ) have a history. That what I meant by grudges. I just wanted to clarify this.

Just to clarify, I am an ADMIN of the Hero's Spouse, and
we have a Terms of Service agreement (TOS)
that I help to enforce.
Which is here
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11.0
and includes the following
You agree, through your use of this website, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law.

I have no grudge against rugged, I think he has work to do,
just like the rest of us.

I would just ask that he follows the rules.

[Finding Hope]

OP,

You could slap a few with violations of this site. Maybe time for tough love??

FH

[Ready2Transform]

My xH became obsessed with "manliness" (his word) at the beginning of his crisis (and it seems to continue). I have a hard time defining it. I always considered the xH a "renaissance man" because he'd acquired skills in many different areas, and never had any problem discussing his feelings. He seemed to be at many times in our life together confident of his individuality (ie didn't have to fit in with a stereotype or any particular set of expectations) and even took joy in challenging people's expectations of what he should or shouldn't be doing. He never seemed apt to lose his punk ethos. Some of the manlier things he always did include military service, martial arts, outdoorsman stuff, woodworking, etc. Could throw back beers and play dirty rock with the best of 'em. But he also sewed (machine and hand), cooked, practiced meditation and yoga, gardened, read Dorothy Parker and prized his fancy watch collection. His friends were liberal, conservative, every color of the rainbow and every sexual and gender identity.

So when he took on more traditional masks of masculinity (lumberjack clothes, facial hair, action films, bourbon guzzling, shooting, hunting, gathering  etc) and claimed I "emasculated" him by working and not being an "at your service" wife instead of the partner he'd always had, it was easy to lump it all into more of his "Mr. Hyde" persona. I certainly didn't get it, and yes, I preferred the other guy - though I don't think that was a man I made him be. He didn't stop his emoting and even became more of a chatty hen with OW and her girlfriends (would come home from some of their reenactment events talking about various gyno issues all the women had and how sad they were - how does THAT translate to "manly"?), so these accoutrements really were just costume, I think. He just didn't want to appear to be weak, but he still desperately wanted attention. I did eventually call him the "p word" - on the night he admitted he and OW were in a PA. Because frankly, no matter how a man appears, his actions define him. And I was raw and disgusted but those cowardly actions when I'd had to be so strong and carry him.

So would I want a man to not be "manly" because of this? I don't have an answer for that. I am attracted to men who are comfortable with themselves and don't give a damn what other people think. That's manly to me. But that doesn't mean I would want someone to clash with all the time. This is why I don't really define myself as a stander anymore. To take back my xH because he's my xH and not because we are a good match could be very bad. Things in common, strong sense of self, someone who won't bring me the drama my xH has. I don't want someone I either have to support financially, or who I would have to depend on. Independence all the way there. I have no clue how that would apply to basic gender roles. For some guys, that really is an issue I guess, and for most women, it's likely not what they want, either.

[in it]

Lord knows I'm far from an expert in a relationship.

Well I guess I want honest and direct and zero game playing..seems to be a problem to find a man like that. That's what a man is to me. Confidence.  No drama. Good sense of humor. Someone I feel safe with. Someone I can trust. Someone who will LISTEN. Someone I may be able to count on when I need them.

Has his own interests and hobbies or things he does that makes him feel good.

I have been asked out to dinner in the past accepted then..nothing. What gives? I was asked was I supposed to play coy and make it harder for him.... say " Oh no I couldn't possibly do that" Play the shrinking Violet? WHAT?

Someone want to clue me in?? What's this thrill of the chase I read about. Is that what makes a man feel like a man? Am I supposed to play hard to get..here we go again. Make yourself too easy to get ( actually I'm just being honest) and it's "Oh $h!te who wants her." Seems like the bigger the b!tc# and the harder you make it, and the meaner you are the more desirable you are. The more they like it.

Games. No thanks. I don't have the energy for games.

Can someone explain this to me?


And IF (and that's a big IF ) it was getting more serious I would like both of us to have some upfront communication in form of a basic guide as to how to meet each others needs.

IMHO  "The 5 love languages" is a wonderful book and explains all the ways people feel loved.  I would like the man in the relationship to read it and highlight/ identify what makes him feel loved and secure and I would do the same. This means being vulnerable and I think that's a scary step for men to make.

Some may see it as handing you ammunition to wipe them out with instead of someone having a genuine honest desire to want to meet their needs too.