[whatthe????]

Personally, I don't want a "yes man".  I want someone who is honest and forthcoming with who he is and how he feels.  Nice does not equal douche bag.  My H kept all these feelings stuffed down and I wish he had told me how he felt.  b/c, well now here we are!  Neither of us had any idea that he had identity issues, insecurity issues, or anything else.  Seriously, he was the total package.  I'm a no non-sense kinda gal and that was one of the things he said that drew him to me.  I wouldn't have changed a thing about him!

[BBhelp]

I feel terrible that I had lost so much of myself in the marriage.

Rugged,

I do know how you are feeling right now...There was a time when I struggled with those same thoughts.  It was then the mirror started getting clearer for me...that it became so obvious all of the things I gave up, all of the sacrifices I had made...and it really helped me see how much I had changed.  I saw that I had given up so much of myself that I had become ONLY HALF of a Whole. I was a Husband and a Father...nothing else. 

I don't equate that with feminizing my behavior...more of a gradual melding of two lives, two personalities with our kids, in-laws, etc.  It was healthy that we could "Mix" so well..but unhealthy that neither of us retained our individuality in the process.  I think when both members of the marriage are healthy & strong that they are able to absorb the difficulties of this phase of our lives, while when one or both of the parties are not...you get conflict, stress & MLC.  So when she got bumped, she went on tilt because she lacked the skills to deal with it an looked Outward to find her salvation...while when I got bumped and finally found the way to look Inward i found a better path for myself.  In my case, my wife eventually found that path as well and now she has found herself and her own salvation as well.

So now...Is It Different?  Definitely!  I am not more Masculine...but I am damn sure more Independent!  I am comfortable in my own skin and making my own decisions...typically we agree on most things now.  But the biggest difference is the fact that I will no longer change who I am or what I believe just to make her happy.  There are times when I can literally have the "AHA Momont" in my head where I can see where I would have gone before in a situation...but now I just won't do all the Fixing & Giving In that before.  It is a truly good feeling to "FEEL" you own learning & growth.  In doing that she has gotten stronger on her own as well because I continue to let her stand on her own two feet.  Today we are still Husband/Wife & Mom/Dad but we are also still ourselves.

The fact that you are seeing all that you gave and all that you gave up is good, because you are seeing things clearly.  But continue to look Inward to figure out WHY you gave up yourself in the whole thing.  I know when I saw myself clearly and identified my weaknesses, unhealthy expectations, and the shiny & smudgy parts of my own character and personality...I was able to make some really healthy changes in my life.  DJ is a great example to follow on this road as well as he continues his path forward.  So keep looking in that mirror...because I think what you will find is not Macho Man but Independence.

Stay Strong.

BB

[hawk]

OP is the picture of a feminized male..........

Yeah.   My words were descriptive.    Honestly.  I felt less than myself in the marriage.

But the question is valid.   I had heard that men marry women hoping they will never change.   Women marry men in hopes of changing them.

I feel that I gave up a great deal of myself to make the marriage work for as long as it did.    I honestly feel that she had no respect for the feminized version of me........  Or.   What I see now as a feminized version.

Then........  I go to a bar.........    Women are after a raging male........   The women I meet have no problem with my straight forward speech.   They appear to be more macho than the men I see........

To me.  There seems to be a distinct double standard

Probably not so different than a man that wants to meet a "nice girl" to marry but expects a w#ore in the bedroom......

Yep ,very true. see it every day.
Even with the kids , believe me l've had dozens of them staying dozens of times and the girls are way worse than the boys so there's really no need to kitty foot around.

And l also believe men do often seem to be the ones cutting back on all sorts of sh@t in a marriage and toning themselves right down,
Even mine , no femining crap, eff that , but even with my w being one of the coolest easiest going chicks around it was still always surprising how it always seemed to be me cutting back or missing out or watching myself with this or that,

[ruggedendurance]

Thanks all.
these are great posts.
I guess.   I am piSS poor at expressing myself.    Masculine is the wrong word in a sense.   Not in the sense that I felt like a neutered animal and........... I know what neutered animals act like.   You don't leave a horse a stud very long unless you are willing to deal with a lot of bull$hit.    That being said.    In the horse world.   I like the personality.
I'm not really from a touchy, feely world.    So the things I see and the things that have formed my opinion and speech don't fit in with every audience........... I'm working at it.
Confidence does seem to be a much better word.   I was not prepared to be a great husband.    My dad was the biggest a$$hat on the planet.    He suffered from a horrible childhood and suffered, from what I call, the small man syndrome.    Just a human with all the madness you can stuff into a small man.........
So.  My plan was to do the exact opposite of him in every situation............
I can see now.   It was too simple.   But to be honest.   It was way better than I had been trained to be.
But.   I wouldn't have described me as being a confident husband or father.   I guess.   I realized I didn't know how to be either one.
So yeah.    The lack of confidence disgusts me.......    Looking back now..........   If I would have been more confident.   If I wouldn't have held myself in check.  In most of the situations that pi$$ed me off.......    The marriage would have never lasted as long as it did.
I realize now.   I did the best I could with what I knew........ 
Honestly.   I can probably say the same about her.
I am at an odd place in life.   I have a few years left to get this $hit figured out and I really would like to finish in the best way possible.
Funny.  I thought I asked a simple question

[lawprofessor]

Now that is the answer of a real man.  Own reality.  Then move forward.  What you were then does not have to define who you are now or who you can be tomorrow. 
Lp

[ruggedendurance]

I wandered off on my own personal journey there.   Sorry.
I really did want an answer and I got reply's that I wasn't expecting.
I did feel that I was being feminized by her and her family.
I'm guessing.   They saw in me, the exact behavior that I displayed last winter..........   Or a strong potential for that behavior.    So.    In order to prevent any uncomfortable situations................    It was best if I was never encouraged.
That is fine.......   I get it.
Then again.    I feel that she was living in fear of something that was never going to happen.   I went out of my way to be as calm and consistent as possible.
For those of you that believe it is beyond me to be calm and consistent......    I've spent a ton of time with large animals.    A 1,200 lb animal demands that you remain calm and consistent.   Even if you have to be rough with that animal at times.    Calm and consistent.    The animal will respond properly to the discipline you dole out.    You actually develop a certain love for an animal you work with.
There is no person on the planet I could have loved more than her.
So.   I feel  her fear was unfounded and.........   her fear drove her to emasculate me in an effort to make her more comfortable.......
I suspect.  That could be the case in many marriages.    It is underlying emotions that drive a lot of our behavior.     Fear is a big emotion.   
Even if it is unfounded.    It is easily justified.
The problem with that is..........  I had never been judged on my merits.   I had been judged on my potential to be a serious problem...
Let's face it.  Any man can be a serious problem.
In the last 4yrs.   I've also seen the kind of carnage a woman can dole out.......
I had never lived in the fear that she was capable of something like this...   Even if I would have known.    I see now.   There is nothing I could have done to prevent it.
She can use that excuse (potential problem)  to treat me like $hit in the marriage.   Fine.
How can she use that excuse to f#ck a pig like creature while she was still married to me?  If she was terrified of me?   Wouldn't she do everything in her power to keep me from being pi$$ed off?   What could possibly pi$$ me off more than that?
See what I am saying?    That behavior she displayed, appears extremely inconsistent........

All of that being said, to say this.

What I've gathered from the responses.
Women want a masculine, confident man.   A quiet confidence.   A quiet masculinity.    I understand and agree.

All I ask is this.........   If a man does f#ck up every once in a while.   Give him some space..........   If he has his $hit together?   He'll come back around.
Display a little calm, consistency in your own camp........
Then.  In the impossible situation that a woman screws up...............
I think we would all get along just fine

[nah]

R- I can't stop thinking about this thread.

Most of us on here have lost ourselves in someway while trying to keep our marriage together.  I know I did.

I don't know why our spouses choose to throw us under the bus instead of looking at themselves.  I thought we were a team.

Like your wife, he used pathetic excuses to justify his behavior. 

I guess that's why we keep coming back here...to try to find answers, or at least try to understand.

[Ready2Transform]

It never makes any more sense. I've studied it from every angle over the last five years, and there is NOTHING that can justify what I have been through. Once I started to see it through my own eyes, the anger came and I felt the injustice in a bigger way. The psycho behavior is worse than the infidelity and fallout in so many ways because of the triggers and trauma. We try to rationalize it or at least find a rational way to label it and move on, but there just is none. Accepting that is so very, very hard. Not applying it to every other area of your life with new relationships and establishing normalcy is also a huge challenge. I don't know why we were all 'picked' for this task, but I truly wish we weren't. I could have gotten character other ways.

[gman242]

Rugged, we're in the same boat. Be how you want to be now, do it and accept nothing less. It was the first thing I did after BD and I love every minute of it. I'm honest, but fair, with myself and W and we're on a new path of honesty and working together.

I did the same thing you did, I sat quiet and learned to work around her rather than be honest and work things out because of her issues. She has the problems, she needs to be the one to get over them. However you can guide her and be an example and being how you want to be.

Re personality traits, I'm 90% female, 10% old male. I have no issue saying that and I bet most of the men on here with MLC wives would find them in a similar mix if they took an honest inventory of themselves. Everything I read about MLC, I keep having to switch H to W in my head to have it make sense to me. lol.

This is something to think about too.. a while ago it was in the news that a bunch of rough and tough veterans were coming out as transgender. Is it a surprise? Get rid of the stereotypical macho stuff and think about what first responders are typically associated with? A deep love of children, animals, family, cooking, a sense of nesting and protecting the "family" whether it be theirs or someone else's... Those are all female personality traits. The "male" drive that it takes to commit acts of violence or response makes up only a small portion of that person.

Yes, there are no neck, chauvinistic Neanderthals out there, but does that really describe who we think of when we visual the ideal paramedic, combat medic, soldier, nurse or firefighter? Not at all, it's everything I just said.. lol.

I'm just saying it goes to show you just are who you are and you tend to attract the opposite of your nature because it brings balance one way or the other.

[Dji76]

Rugged "I was not prepared to be a great husband. So.  My plan was to do the exact opposite of him in every situation............I can see now.   It was too simple.   But to be honest.   It was way better than I had been trained to be. But.   I wouldn't have described me as being a confident husband.  Looking back now..........   If I would have been more confident.   If I wouldn't have held myself in check.  In most of the situations that pi$$ed me off.......    The marriage would have never lasted as long as it did. I realize now.   I did the best I could with what I knew........  Honestly.   I can probably say the same about her."

Thats great stuff RE! I have come to the exact same conclusions. After my parents divorce I vowed to do everything opposite. Extremes are rarely a good thing. Like you, if I would have been more confident the marriage would have not lasted. Hell, I probably would have never been married in the first place. The great thing going forward is that its all a choice! We can be whoever we choose to be. It is possible to change behaviors and not be controlled by our emotions.