[UrsaMajor]

Good Morning,

As I have been asked by the author of the thread to comment, after thinking about it for a little while (remember? Respond, don't react?  ) I've thought a bit about it and ordered my thoughts/ideas. First, I am trying to focus on the initial opening discussion but will occasionally refer to comments from other posters as I did find them interesting but, for the most part, I want to respect the wishes of M3G and stay close to the topic. Second, I refuse to engage in a cat fight with  anyone over anything. I will be glad to discuss whatever but I have enough drama in my life with my mid-lifer - 'nuf said.

This is what I personally feel about limiting contact and the various "levels" of doing so. I have no basis for this except what I have experienced and observed in my life.

Advance warning : This will be a long read and I ramble a bit

For a little background as to why I feel the way I do about limiting contact:

This is my second time on this Rollercoaster (Yes, apparently I have some magical attraction to women who will go into some crisis  ) with xW going off the rails at age 33 (so mid- or quarter?) with full-blown Godzilla-Monstering for more than 10 years and with a small child (at that time - D was 3 when xW blew up - she is 26 now)!  Currently, my Mid-Lifer is a Low-Energy Clinger, minimal to no monstering after BD and the few weeks afterwards so a totally different kettle of fish.

First, a slight definition of terminology - NC vs. nc (capital letters vs. small) from my view.

When I say NC (upper case) I mean exactly that - NO direct contact between the Mid-Lifer and the LBS - ALL communication is handled via 3rd party from the LBS point of view.  As noted in a previous post in this thread, we can only control ourselves. When one is NC, we still can not control what our Mid-Lifer does. We CAN, however, control how we respond to it and, in NC (upper case) I feel that means that there is NO direct response from the LBS to the Mid-Lifer.  MLr sends a note? Response is returned via Attorney. ML'r tries to call (Thank GOODNESS for Caller ID - I didn't have that first time around so used my Answering Machine as a call screener)? Block the number or don't answer.  NO direct engagement - period.

For me lower case nc is about the same as black hole dark - for specific things, there may be direct contact but that is it... OK? Now that we're all on the same sheet of music maybe....

My experience with NC/nc :

I see NC as one of the most potent defensive weapons (and I use this term with full knowledge) in the arsenal of the LBS. It is totally appropriate and a means of self-protection in cases of abuse, either physical or mental (now the degree of what constitutes mental abuse is VERY subjective and is a personal decision that I am not going to go into. Physical abuse, however is straight forward and is a 100% no-go for me. In my view it is also a reason to not even consider reconciliation because that is a red line that shall not be crossed ... ever... for any reason... ) because the whole purpose is to remove any direct contact between the LSB and the Mid-Lifer.

When xW was in the depths of crazy, she would often call and literally scream at me... for hours... until I put an end to it with NC. With the exception of 3 days around my D(now 26)'s High School Graduation, I have had no contact at all with xW for more than 15 years. To this day, seeing her name in FB posts from D or in my e-mail inbox (more on that in a second) elicits a visceral gut-level response (PTSD anyone?) from me. xW has sent me FB Friend requests (    You can NOT make this stuff up - FB needs a button when you delete such requests that says "I'd rather have my squishy bits pounded flat with a hammer or a root canal without novacaine!") LinkedIn requests (again, WTF? She was a paralegal secretary so our lines of work have NOTHING in common) all of which I have simply deleted. I refuse to have anything to do with her.

In the initial stages, when I would try to arrange visitation, she would use the opportunity to go off on a Monster rant, slinging all kids of baseless accusations (mostly regarding parental kidnapping, etc.) , cursing, and would refuse to allow D to visit me so I finally had to haul out the nuclear Weapon of NC. ALL communication regarding visitation were then sent via my attorney and included the implicit threat of enforcement actions begin filed if she failed to comply. As xW was a paralegal, she was fully aware of the consequences of her actions in that regard and would ALWAYS agree to the proposed visitation. She would then usually try to call or send really hateful letters (this was before e-mail got off the ground in a big way for private people) which I would then deliver unopened to my attorney who would deal with it, usually by reading for any pertinent information and then tossing the letter in the circular file.  That way I was insulated from the MonsterMadness..... This continued until D was about 12 or 13. In that time, xW followed the High-Energy script of serial AD's (one of which took her into Bankruptcy - OM<x> was 33 and still living in mom's basement - what could POSSIBLY be wrong with this picture?), smoking again (and not just cigarettes), etc.. Once D was a little older and would speak for herself, my contact with D was opened up and I dealt directly with her regarding schedules and such with the only "contact" for xW being me ordering and sending plane tickets for D to her for the dates agreed between D and myself.

For D's High School Graduation, we (I was then married to current Mid-Lifer and S was on the scene) received an invitation to her graduation and follow-on party.... We used that as a springboard for our summer vacation to visit my parents on Colorado and S's Godparents in Atlanta so we made a 3 week thing out of it.  I basically arranged everything either remotely or with D (she worked at a hotel in the area so that was how we got that squared away) but I did reply to xW thinking her for he invitation, accepting it and giving her our itinerary. Those were 3 days of stress because I was constantly waiting for the explosion - it never came but I could not shake the feeling.... On a side note, I didn't even recognize xW in the Auditorium where the graduation was to take place. She came up and said "Hey you! We saved some seats over there." and I guess the look on my face must have said "Who the heck are you? for  second because she continued with "where xSIL and xWSD1 & xWSD2 are sitting"  THEN I finally realized who this person was...  Yes, seriously. I would have NEVER recognized her... After the ceremony, MLCW, S D and I went back to our hotel and then D went back home. The next day was a pool party at their house (xW had remarried several years before - actually about the time that the monster was beginning to disappear) and it was a decent time - no incidents and we all had a reasonably good time. xW's brother and sister were there too and everything went fine...

So, in that way, we downgraded from NC to nc. I have no desire or need to have any contact with her as there is zero chance of any kind of R, friends or anything, because I refuse to accept ANY risk that the old monster could reappear... Yeah, THAT (in my eyes) qualified as emotional or mental abuse. For crying out loud, I'm 53, have been out of that situation for 20 something years and it is STILL a trigger for me.

Going NC brought out Monster¹⁰ as if "normal" Monster was not bad enough.... but I had to do that to set the boundary that I refused to be bullied, I refused to be abused by her, and it was in HER hands to change it by CHOOSING to be a reasonable decent human being instead of a rabid Godzilla on Steroids.  It took her nearly 10 years to make that decision...

Having said all that, NC is like Gandolf on the Bridge with in "The Lord of the Rings." It is a boundary that shall not be crossed. Some say that it should be of finite duration. My personal take is that it is dependent on 2 things - First , the ability of the LBS to deal with the Mid-Lifer and second, the Mid-lifers ability respect whatever boundary has been put into place with NC as the consequence for crossing it.. there also MUST be REAL consequences for crossing that boundary. Without real consequences, the Mid-Lifer will ignore the boundary, just like any other. In my case, my attorney told xW in plain terms that if she continued, there would be a restraining order filed. When xW started contacting my employer and monstering, a "Cease and Desist"order WAS filed (Like I said, actual real consequences) with the threat of a law suit for tortious interference with employment being filed.

This is why I refer as NC (upper case) as a weapon. There are real consequences involved, just waiting for the trigger to be pulled. That is the only way in which NC can really be effective. To put it bluntly, the Mid-Lifer will have to feel the pain of crossing the boundary.
Note to M3G: You noted that in the court order, your x(?) is conjoined from contact other than with respect to the kids but you say he continues to contact you about everything and anything other than the kids. That puts him in contempt. What are the consequences of that action? Does that mean that you have to report his breaking of that injunction? If so, have you? Otherwise it is an idle threat that has no backing and, as we have all experienced, if the mid-lifer doesn't feel the burn, they will not respect the boundary.

NC, for those with small kids and who are in close proximity to their mid-lifer, is also not for the faint of heart. It means (to me) that the kids are dropped off or picked up at a 3rd party location so direct contact between the LBS and the Mid-Lifer is prevented. Usually Social Services will have been involved at some point in some way or another from my understanding/perspective and agreements are made as to where and when the kids are exchanged.

On to nc/Dark/Dim - I differentiate these as usually NC is for those who need protection from their abuser and have neither hope or desire of reconnection/reconciliation because, let's face it, if there is truly NO contact, there can be no reconnection.

Therefore, I see nc/dark/dim as more of a tool for the LBS that allows the LBS to respond rather than react. To me, the three above terms imply that there IS direct communication / contact with the Mid-Lifer, albeit limited to specific subjects/times/means. These three tools are more flexible in their usage and can be applied as needed. If the Mid-Lifer has some respect for boundaries (yes, it CAN happen, especially among the lower-energy types like mine), going up the severity scale can be used as the "response" to a boundary being broken. for example, in one thread on HS, the LBS set a boundary of "If you choose the Adult Child over me on my Birthday, I will go nc for 30 days or until such time that you do <xyz>." In another thread, it is "I am going to have no contact with you until you see a mental health professional about your anger." This is a clear boundary. the resulting reaction is clearly defined , and the conditions for the lifting of the reaction are all clearly spelled out.

Again, for me, UPPER CASE NC is of unlimited duration and is solely based on the needs/situation of the LBS whereas nc/Dark/dim are well-defined methods/levels of interaction and the transition to a lower level is a response to to trespassing or crossing a line, are finite in duration and have well-defined criteria and are levels of communication/contact based on the .

In my current situation, I go between dim and dark. The communications pipeline regarding the kids and planning around them is fully open. Other than that, we have discussed things like Christmas presents, for the kids, who will make Christmas dinner, will we go to church together, etc.  MLCW asked me the other day if I could take care of the kids on the 22nd "because she is going out to dinner."  I replied that I'd be happy to have the kids but I did not take the bait of asking about the dinner because, frankly, the Mid-lifer is going to do who/what the Mid-lifer is going to do so I am not going to waste my time or energy on it... All that does is rev up the Monkey-Braining. In addition, I do not share my plans with her except as it pertains to where the kids will stay on that particular night. She has decided to be a single mom so she no longer has the right to know what I am doing just as I feel I have neither the need nor the right to know what she is doing when the kids are with me.

Since I still entertain the possibility of reconnection and because my mid-lifer is not abusive at this time (in my opinion), I am keeping the communication paths open so that, IF she decides at some point before my life moves on that she will get her head out of her .... fog... and if she works through the issue(s) that brought her to MLC in the first place and IF she hasn't burned every bridge between us, there is a possibility that we can rebuild... and see where we go from there....

Side Note: XYZCF asked a question regarding the control of communication that I thought was pertinent with respect to the LBS... One thing that the LBS has to remember is that, even in NC, there are some things that are simply out of our control and the Mid-Lifer is at the top of the list. As I said above, the Mid-Lifer's gonna do what they are gonna do and we have no control over that. We CAN have, SHOULD have, and DO have control over how we respond to them and, depending on how limited you have chosen to be with your Mid-Lifer (and, like anything else, yes, it is a choice that you or I make) that response should follow the boundaries that have been put in place, either by the courts or by the LBS themselves. That means that the LBS may need to take a certain set of actions if the MLC'er has violated the court order for example. Like M3G said, we only control ourselves and I would add that we should also be consistent and consequential... After all, we are dealing with someone who is spinning madly somewhere in the spectrum between  "toddler in Temper Tantrum Mode" and the "petulant pouty passive-aggressive teenager in Puberty."

[terrified_in_TN]

Been watching this thread.  I don't have much to contribute.  Just wanted to chime in and say Ursa-that is the most well thought out informative post I have read about NC/nc/D&D.  I am still trying to figure out boundaries, as I have a particularly abusive (NPD, not physically) MLCer.  We still have a small child so NC just isn't possible....or at least I didn't think so until now.  Your post was pure gold to me.

Thanks,

-T

[MoreWillBeRevealed]

I thought D&D meant Divorced and Done too. M3G--you use a lot of acronyms. When you start a thread, I suggest you define the acronym first and then use acronym throughout. Nothing wrong with acronyms that are standard and listed in the acronym resources section of this forum. D&D was not listed on that acronym list, or at least I couldn't find it. So now many of my previous posts would have been written differently.

UM--I don't agree that NC means everything through 3rd party. I feel I have instituted NC but still see H when he drops off S5 from visitation. I just never engage with him. I have made a few errors but for the most part feel I am doing well with NC. As long as I do not engage with H, I don't experience abuse from him.

[UrsaMajor]

UM--I don't agree that NC means everything through 3rd party. I feel I have instituted NC but still see H when he drops off S5 from visitation. I just never engage with him. I have made a few errors but for the most part feel I am doing well with NC. As long as I do not engage with H, I don't experience abuse from him.

Fair enough... That is why I said that it was MY experience, my understanding and what I had to put into place. With my xMonster, if there was ANY contact, it was full-on rage. She could not control herself... and why I differentiated between what I called upper case NC and lower case nc.  If you and your Mid-Lifer are able to NOT engage when in physical proximity, then you are already one step ahead of the game. Many abusive spouses use those instances as a chance to get a shot in... Heck, mine met me one day in the airport when I was flying through (I arranged it so I could see D before I had the NC in place) and proceeded, in front of D (who was 3 at the time) and zig hundred other people in the terminal, to go on a full-blown screaming rant that culminated with her throwing D papers in my face just as Security showed up.. This was pre-9/11 so she was able to get to the gate... It was UG-LY!

[Tyks]

UM, you should never apologize for your long posts. They are very enjoyable to read.

I am nc because contact brings out the mush in me. It takes days to recover my sanity and strength to carry on. So far h has not contacted me (even though he said in his email that I posted that he would continue to communicate with me when he wanted to). I guess he hasn't wanted to. That's okay by me. Makes me miss the old h less.

[UrsaMajor]

UM, you should never apologize for your long posts. They are very enjoyable to read.

I am nc because contact brings out the mush in me. It takes days to recover my sanity and strength to carry on. So far h has not contacted me (even though he said in his email that I posted that he would continue to communicate with me when he wanted to). I guess he hasn't wanted to. That's okay by me. Makes me miss the old h less.

Hi Tyks,

Here is your NON-HS-Friendly emoji in response to H (If you click the link, you'll be able to see it... https://smileyshack.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/sgiving-the-finger_100-111.gif

[Tyks]

Lol. That gave me the laugh I needed this am. Thank you

[calamity]

I am nc because contact brings out the mush in me. It takes days to recover my sanity and strength to carry on.

This was me.  I used to think, I should be stronger, I should be able to deal with him but 'shoulds' are self-defeating.  We do what we can and maybe it is just what we need to survive. 

[Absolutely Fabulous]

I thought D&D meant Divorced and Done too. M3G--you use a lot of acronyms. When you start a thread, I suggest you define the acronym first and then use acronym throughout. Nothing wrong with acronyms that are standard and listed in the acronym resources section of this forum. D&D was not listed on that acronym list, or at least I couldn't find it. So now many of my previous posts would have been written differently.

UM--I don't agree that NC means everything through 3rd party. I feel I have instituted NC but still see H when he drops off S5 from visitation. I just never engage with him. I have made a few errors but for the most part feel I am doing well with NC. As long as I do not engage with H, I don't experience abuse from him.

You'll have to forgive me, I was married to Marine for 20yrs., the military uses a lot of acronyms. I had explained towards the end of the post that my kids were D&D ( Dim and Dark ) and I was NC. I'll be clearer in subsequent posts. In my defense, if everyone had read the initial post all the way through instead of just the title, they would have understood. There's only so many characters you can use in the title, so, I improvised.  I also had a disclaimer for newbies. They wouldn't know what D&D was. Velika being at this for a while knew exactly what I was talking about, and responded immediately. I see More that you are a newbie, this was really supposed to be for us that were at this for a few years into it here on HS. Although you are welcome there are many of us on here who have been dealing with each other for years ( Medusa, TNT, Velika, In It, Calamity, XYZ, RTR, ect... ). So that was why I had a disclaimer.

Thanks UM for your input, as always well thought out and well written. I agree with TNT that was the best explanation of D&D and NC that I've read in a long time. I'm NC on my end, but he still contacts, the last time I did have to go through my lawyer. Hence why I think he's moving back to the state. For the time being I want nothing to do with him, and have told him as much. So, NC has been a major consequence in my situation. I respond, I don't react. I also don't initiate contact unless I'm forced to. Like this month when he didn't deposit our money until 5 days after the due date. That made my bills late, so I had no choice but to contact. He ignored, I sent a joint email to him and my lawyer. The money was deposited the next day. 

TNT great to see you posting again.

UM, He is indeed in contempt of court, but with him living on an island, he tends to get warnings. That's about the best we can do for now. He usually backs off for a while. I will be looking in to a 3rd party pick up when and/or if he does move back. I'm not interested in reconciliation at this time, and he's in need of serious therapy. Even my younger girls have told me that they would never speak to me again if I took him back. I lost a marriage, almost lost my OD because of it. Not jeopardizing my relationship with my younger 2.

I choose NC as a direct defense against him using the OW/AD to try to humiliate me and my younger 2 kids. OD liked her: she agreed with her out of control lifestyle. Go figure. Now, OD is talking to me again. I think that that's a good sign that the AD used her to get close to XH and now she's served her purpose. Poor kid, now she doesn't see much of her dad, unless she works with him at his snow cone, oops, shaved ice stand.

Thanks to everyone participating. And I too hope that the cat fights will stop. This is supposed to be a place where we can share, and yes, I do expect sometimes for this thread to get raw. It's why I started it, no pretenses. Controversial as this topic is, it really does need to be addressed openly and honestly.

Whether thin skinned or thick, everyone, including those of us who are more candid and/or blunt should be respected. Provocative statements are unnecessary, and if you provoke someone, then you can expect them to be triggered. And, on this post may give you a piece of their minds. So if you don't want to illicit that type of response from those who may be dealing with a "monstering mlcer" don't push anyone's buttons. People are dealing with enough drama from the MLCer.

[MoreWillBeRevealed]

Oh geez, UM. I don't blame you for wanting no contact with that insane woman! Ugh. She sounds like a piece of work. I am fortunate that mine doesn't monster or say abusive hurtful things if we keep conversations to financials and our son. The monster and fake robot (just as hurtful) comes out when H is asked ANY question about how he is doing or really anything is presented regarding anything other than financials and son. I instituted this form of NC and not inquiring about anything at about 2 months. Like I said, I haven't been perfect with it, but last time I asked H if he was ok (I swore he relapsed on drugs) I learned not to do that again. That was a few months ago.

M3G--I did read your entire thread. I just didn't pick up on dim and dark meaning D&D because I had it in my head it meant divorced and done. No apologies needed, just thought I'd make that suggestion. No worries. Keep doing a great job putting you and the girls first.