[Anjae]

I do have a question which maybe no one can answer but how does limerance fit with MLCrs that feel 'nothing' there's many a story where the MLCr actually never felt anything for the OW they just liked how she made them feel (ego based affairs)..... any ideas?

Good question. I don't know.

We had a previous discussion on Limerance in one of the articles&links to share threads if anyone wants to check: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3496.20

[sparklestar]

Thanks Anjae,

I will definoitely take a look.  I guess that its interesting becasue some cases seem to have this limeramce involved where as others have teh feeling of 'nothing' complete numbness.  I would have thought (assumed) that these were mutually exclusive and thus either or not both?  Or does limerasnce happen becasue of teh numbness as in a 'cutting through' that said it doesnt make sense becasue if an MLCr can say I felt nothing for the OP I just liked how they made me feel then it isnt limerance..... Its almost like 2 extremes.

[Nas]

Whenever I listen to Joe Beam I find myself wishing he would elaborate more.

For instance, he says his LO went into phase 3 and wanted to end things while he was still in phase 2. 
He never explains if he ever actually went into phase 3 himself and decided he no longer felt the same about the LO, or if she simply went into phase 3 and left him.  Meaning he never went into phase 3.  He was still infatuated and she dumped him and left.

The specifics of that matter to what he says next.  He said he didn't just immediately contact his wife and try to reconcile.  Why?  Because he had so vilified her in his mind, he felt being alone was still a better choice.
Well, it would help to know if he still believed his vilification about his wife because he was in fact still in phase 2 and still too consumed with his lost LO, or if he was in phase 3 yet still believing in his rewritten history of his marriage. 

To me that's important.  If he was still in phase 2 it means he didn't want to reconcile because he was still in limerence. 
If he was in phase 3, that means he didn't want to reconcile because even after limerence ends, the person still believes in the rewritten history they created to deal with their cognitive dissonance at the beginning of limerence.  That would be a sad outcome, to tell oneself terrible lies about their spouse and then always believe them.

He also says after his LO left him, he started drinking and living a hedonistic lifestyle until he realized he was miserable.  But he doesn't give a timeline.  For how long after his LO left did he live this way?  Was that covert depression?  Was that his way of dealing with still being in phase 2 and having lost his LO and when he finally realized that was no way to live, was it because he had finally reached phase 3? 

These are just questions that came up as I listened to this. 

[Ready2Transform]

It's something to ponder that I don't know if there are a lot of answers to yet (again, glad to hear in this that a bunch of doctors are entering a new study).

I hear you on the, "Is it just another word for MLC or infatuation?", and here's where I (not being the expert) think it may be a little of both but not the whole salami on either.

When Dr. Dorothy Tennov began her studies in the 1970s and coined the term, it was more philosophical and didn't deal as much with the pathology we're dealing with, so in that way, it WAS just a study of the nature of infatuation. She still faced scrutiny for it and it wasn't until Dr. Helen Fisher took back up with a much more neuro-angle that I think we see the concept we're dealing with now. I have a bit of a soft spot for her work since I found it long before I found this site and the concept of MLC. Particularly, her writings on serotonin imbalance and dopamine suppression that turns "off" love toward a spouse. I don't have the link handy, but for the neuro-studiers, she's a good resource.

But even with Joe Beam, who DOES have an angle with this that's not just academic (he has a program for couples and LBS he wants to sell), it's consistent that limerence in general does not have a target demographic that would put it at just middle age, therefore I don't think it can just replace MLC as a term. None of these doctors go deep into the other areas of life where there will be MLC behaviors (though they do mention, Joe Beam stating the statistic of 85% of the time, that the limerent object will become a distracting obsession that can effect the rest of their lives).

But it gives us insight into the nature of the affair, and I think that has value. Yes, normal and healthy relationships can begin with a sense of "infatuation" - that's the dopamine -  but most don't have a habitual aspect. There are people, or maybe something within all of us that's just waiting for the right conditions, that cause a 'tip' into something different. I'm sure we were "in love" with our spouses when we started seeing them, with the butterflies and a bit of distraction from daily life. But rarely can we compare what we experienced with them to what we saw with them and these alienators.

Think about pre-teen girls and pop idols. Two girls may both put the posters on their walls, watch the YouTube videos incessantly, go to the concerts, etc. But for one who is emotionally stable, this is part of the developmental phase of puberty and Justin fades into the background as she develops new relationships. Another may not be so stable and continues this obsession well into adulthood, set on developing an actual relationship with Justin despite the irrationality of it. I have a former friend who did this with an 80s rockstar, and it did not end well when he didn't react the way she imagined he would to her loyalty. She had a string of tragic events in her childhood around the time she developed this "crush" that I think played into developing such deep neural networks for this fantasy escape).

So with limerence, to my interpretation from these sources, it is a more pathological and unhealthy attachment that is one aspect of MLC but does not define the entirety of MLC. It doesn't require the midlife demographic to come into play, and not every relationship a sufferer has will be limerent. But that's just me!

If you want to move this to the articles, I'm cool with that. 

[Ready2Transform]

I found the interview with Joe's wife Alice, Nassau, and if memory serves she answers up some of that stuff: http://www.marriageradio.com/why-she-took-him-back

[Nas]

R2T, you rock!!

[Ready2Transform]

Nah, I'm just a nerd with too many bookmarks.

[Anjae]

Since Joe Beam only seems to adress couples and is in for marital reconciliation, I think, at least on his case, we can exclude teenagers and anyone that is not married/in a commited relationship. And he talks about people who left their marriage because they were infatuated with another person. Again, in his case, we can excluide anyone who has not left their spouse for another relationship.

His talk is the one of a former MLCer. 

Still, regardless of who we are reading/listening about limerance, limerance and infatuation end up being the same thing, be it teenage girls in love with a pop idol or an MLCer "in love" with their alienator.

This could also fit infatuation. Or, at least, infatuation for some people. At a point in our lives, I think we have all been there. Be it with a real person, a pop icon, a movie or a sports star.

Limerance/infatuation, do not define the whole of MLC, but seem to play a good part in it. At least at first. Afterwards, who knows what keeps MLCer and alienator together for all those long years.

We don't know much about Joe Beam story. Did he cause financial damage to his wife? Did he monster at her? We really don't know that much. We know he become infatuated with another woman, spend three years apart from his wife, then she took him back. Three years? How many of us which our spouse crisis was done in three years? Pretty much all of us (aside from the lucky few whose spouse come back up to three years). He also says in these second link that he was married to his wife for 15 years before he left, and has been married for 28 years since they got back together. They had divorced and remarried.

I think Larry Billota does something similar with his timelines for how long the MLCers crisis is supposed to last. They are too short.

What we all would want is to know how to solve this mess. But, aside from let it run its course, no one knows.

[Absolutely Fabulous]

Thanks R2T,

I was wondering why the hell she took him back. Dr. Paul Hegstrom's wife Judy took him back as well. www.lifeskillsintl.org I've always wanted to know what was the catalyst that made these women give these MLCer's a second chance. I really don't think that there's anything that my XH could do to make me change my mind. Then again, he's still not fully cooked. And he's really trying to force a relationship with my younger 2.

The AD is definitely out of the picture and trying to continue to get his attention. He's also very desperate to get my younger 2 to visit with him on the weekends. My YD had a meltdown last night. She's really stressed out about seeing her dad again. I often wondered when they were no longer in limerence did they remember the kids. Crazy, but Joe Beam has really redeemed himself.

[Not Applicable]

I do have a question which maybe no one can answer but how does limerance fit with MLCrs that feel 'nothing' there's many a story where the MLCr actually never felt anything for the OW they just liked how she made them feel (ego based affairs)..... any ideas?

It's a one way love. The OW does love them and at some level they know that and it makes them feel important or needed or whatever maybe. But they don't love her back. They are using her for something other than giving love but she actually loves them. They are receiving her love but they aren't giving it back. Does that make sense?