Author Topic: Discussion Ethics: How Far Should LBS Go to Intervene?  (Read 1732 times)

Offline VelikaTopic starterTopic starter

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Discussion Ethics: How Far Should LBS Go to Intervene?
« on: March 27, 2017, 11:00:03 PM »
I would like to raise this topic because most of what I read here on this site and on other sites takes the position that there is nothing the LBS can do to get through to the MLCer.

I wonder if at times, though, if I could have and should have tried harder to get through to the professionals around us. If our spouses are truly ill, should we attempt to be more proactive in alerting those around us, and then following up with new information?

For example, should a LBS:
  • Call the MLCer's doctor?
  • Schedule an appointment with a psychiatrist?
  • Demand a psychiatric evaluation from the court?
  • Contact the MLCer's family and close friends at bomb drop and then with any new observation of unusual behavior?
  • Call 911/emergency during especially irrational episode?

LBS believe initially that they are dealing not with an illness but with an affair, and therefore turn to affair recovery sites/advice for help. The LBS may also not realize MLCer is manic or notice other symptoms of mental illness until some months in.

So much of the advice I read about MLC involves strategies for dealing with the MLCer, or else focus on recovery for LBS. But I have not read a lot on strategies for seeking outside help.

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Ethics: How Far Should LBS Go to Intervene?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2017, 11:20:22 PM »
I believe that if the MLCer is potentially an immediate physical danger to themselves or others, something should be done. MLC or not, this is irrelevant. I believe HB mentioned that some MLCers actually wind up committing suicide so this is a possibility. It's not about getting through to the MLCer, just protecting them from physically harming themselves or others.

When my husband seemed ready to crack under all the pressure a few weeks ago and he ran out of the house to visit a cousin for a few hours, I sat down with MIL and told her my concerns, telling her I just wanted her to keep an eye on him. There was nothing specific I was afraid of but because he had previously expressed that if his feelings would return he would wish he was dead, I wanted another pair of eyes on him. Not to actually intervene, but alert me if something seemed really worrisome.
Beware "MLCers" telling lies.

Offline VelikaTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Ethics: How Far Should LBS Go to Intervene?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2017, 11:36:44 PM »
Good point C4E.

I am realizing, and I want to help others learn from my own experience, that the following prevented me from feeling I could reach out to my husband's family:
  • Poor response at first attempts.
  • My own confusion.
  • Shame over affair/self doubts/insecurities.
  • Feedback from third parties. (E.g. not receiving validation from a therapist that this was indeed mental illness, even though they had only just met my husband.)

I agree that it is imperative to seek help when there are safety concerns like suicide. But what about more slippery slope issues, like, for example, my husband wanting to own guns? (For hunting, which is perfectly legal.) Or what about changes to driving habits? What about poor spending choices?

By the way C4E, I love your tagline quote. Really powerful!

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Ethics: How Far Should LBS Go to Intervene?
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2017, 04:21:16 AM »
I'd put my foot down about a gun. My FIL would never let my husband touch a gun. He didn't trust him with one. So why should I?
Beware "MLCers" telling lies.

Offline Thunder

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Re: Ethics: How Far Should LBS Go to Intervene?
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2017, 05:01:09 AM »
How do you stop a grown man from buying a gun?

They could do it without your knowledge.

Velika my other question is, you can make appointments for them, but how do you get them to go if they don't want to?
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline spock

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Re: Ethics: How Far Should LBS Go to Intervene?
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2017, 05:05:41 AM »
My MLCer used to be very close to his mother, but over the years, they sort of 'grew apart' for some reason. She used to say that he would take time off from work (this was before I met him, he was in his late 20s) to show her around when she visits as he moved interstate for work, spend time together, etc. When he BD'ed me the first time, I called her for help as I have no idea what's going on other than his sister was hospitalised for mental illness (i think it runs in the family). Second BD 2 years later, I told her we are separating and he wasn't making any sense. She's been trying to keep in touch with him, one time she got "I'm busy, don't call me, call spock!"  :o
Together since 2009, 7.5 years
- PA with OW1 09/15 (BD1)
- EA with OW2 02/16 (BD2)
I moved out 07/16..

Offline Nas

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Re: Ethics: How Far Should LBS Go to Intervene?
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2017, 07:56:14 AM »
My advice: don't torture yourself with questions of what more you could have done.  I am proof nothing you did would have helped.

I did not know about the affair for the first full year after BD.
Therefore, I didn't think I was dealing with an affair, I thought I was dealing with an illness.

I wrote a letter to and then called his doctor, who at first dismissed me and then only halfheartedly humored me when I voiced my concerns.
I finally convinced his doctor to refer him to a therapist.
He went to therapy for a few weeks, even admitted to having anxiety, but still the MLC got worse.

I called his mother, with whom he is extremely close.  She told me during the entire 16 years of our relationship, "If you ever have a problem with H in terms of drinking or not treating you well, you can come to me."  I did.  She responded by telling me she didn't think I'd been happy for a long time and I should just let him go as she had seen a calmness in him after he left me that convinced her he was better off having left me. 

I went to a friend who had also noticed H's seemingly depressed behavior and then reached out to H in a very nonjudgmental and kind way.  H has not spoken to him since.

Several others reached out to my H without my knowledge, out of concern for the alarming changes they saw in him.  He outright ignored most of them and hasn't talked to any of them since.

There's nothing we can do.  In fact, I would venture to guess my attempts actually made things worse in those early days.  He saw me trying to fix him, trying to control him.  He even yelled at me once, "You CAN'T fix this."

Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline calamity

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Re: Ethics: How Far Should LBS Go to Intervene?
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2017, 08:19:41 AM »
Nassau, I'm sorry that was your experience and thank you for sharing--you are not alone.  Many lbs's on HS have said the same thing.

I totally agree with your h [probably the one thing he's said that makes sense :D ??? ]:  you can't fix this.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 08:21:05 AM by calamity »

Offline heroIam

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Re: Ethics: How Far Should LBS Go to Intervene?
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2017, 08:32:52 AM »
Unless my H is deathly ill or seriously injured/maimed.....me stepping in is most likely a form a control.
So, I would not intervene.  Regardless of their bad behaviors, they are still grown men.  They managed this far without us intervening.
“In the end, you’ve got to be your own hero because everyone’s busy trying to save themselves.”

Offline Songanddance

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Re: Ethics: How Far Should LBS Go to Intervene?
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2017, 08:42:00 AM »
Quote
So, I would not intervene.  Regardless of their bad behaviors, they are still grown men.  They managed this far without us intervening.

Exactly! 

I would never have arranged or recommended for my H to have an appointment with anyone. Yes at first you are dealing with an affair and then realise that it is severe depression that you are coping with. But you cannot control anyone who has depression - all you can do is be present and be whole and healthy in your responses and that means not stating that they need to see someone. My H used to say " I think I need to see someone" and my reply was " Ok" or "Uhuh"    He had to sort it - it was not for me to do.

If it becomes a life- threatening situation or the potential for harm especially to children or self is real, I would then call the police. My H assaulted my S who was 18 at the time. S did not want to call the police because he admitted that he had also assaulted H.  I just called them both out on it and walked away.

Trying to "do" something for the MLCer only makes it worse for us.  We cannot fix this - therefore we step back and leave them to it.
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 through 2018.
2019 is the year of Decisions!

Offline ZaMunky

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Re: Ethics: How Far Should LBS Go to Intervene?
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2017, 08:44:01 AM »
IMO, you can't help people who don't want the help. They are in full run mode and trying to....maybe force is the wrong word, but trying to encourage them to seek help will only increase the speed they are running away from you, then they will get angry at you and claim "this is exactly why we are not good together, because you are always trying to control me" and bla bla bla. It will just make it worse.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 08:45:14 AM by ZaMunky »
Me: 46
W: 40
Married: Dec 2, 2008- 8 years
THE BD - 3/8/2017
W left 5/25/2017
I moved out 7/23/2017
W Divorce filed 8/14/2017
OM suspected but not confirmed
Kids: D3 D3 S4 S8 SIL12

Offline LEC16

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Re: Ethics: How Far Should LBS Go to Intervene?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2017, 09:56:21 AM »
IMO, you can't help people who don't want the help. They are in full run mode and trying to....maybe force is the wrong word, but trying to encourage them to seek help will only increase the speed they are running away from you, then they will get angry at you and claim "this is exactly why we are not good together, because you are always trying to control me" and bla bla bla. It will just make it worse.

Probably true, I actually got a councilor to come to my W because she wouldn't seek help. It didn't help as W didn't do anything that the councilor suggested. She was told it would take work and time to restore feelings. W said it isn't worth the effort, what she didn't know is that the councilor knew she was in some sort of crisis. The bottom line is they need to want help and need to be willing to take time and do the work.

Offline Anjae

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Re: Ethics: How Far Should LBS Go to Intervene?
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2017, 10:38:26 AM »
We should't intervene. Like others had said, MLCers are grown ups. Plus, it never works if we trie to intervene. Not while they are in Escape & Avoid.

Later on the crisis, when the fog is lifted, and if they ask for help, then yes, we can help. But then and if.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Elegance

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Re: Ethics: How Far Should LBS Go to Intervene?
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2017, 10:45:52 AM »
My H is just like all of yours, where he wont do a thing to help himself. He feels he can do it naturally  ::)

That's is fine with me, yet he clings to me so much, keeps me up and interferes with my life because it's almost impossible for me to wake up the next day to do what I need to do when he keeps me up all night >:(

I found a natural solution (thanks to R2T) he can try out, yet of course he won't try  it. It helps with his dopamine addiction. Actually it lessens the need for for dopamine naturally. Yet of course he won't try it so I'm back to square one.

If it was just him, I'd say let him be because just like others said before , you can't help someone who doesn't want it. I'd love to hear suggestions in my case or others who are affected by their MLCer's stubbornness to receive help. Any advice?

« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 10:59:28 AM by Elegance »

 

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