[Which LBS Stage do you think you are mostly at now? (pick main one)]

Which LBS Stage do you think you are mostly at now? (pick main one)

Denial (shock, confusion)

1 (1.7%)

Bargaining (trying to figure out why, planning, adjusting)

1 (1.7%)

Anger (fear, resentment)

3 (5.1%)

Depression (despair, exhaustion)

13 (22%)

Acceptance (detachment, calm, control)

33 (55.9%)

Renewal

8 (13.6%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Voting closed: October 27, 2017, 04:41:15 AM

[Treasur]

Worth a re-read too for the LBS https://thestagesandlessonsofmidlife.org/the-left-behind-spouses-emotional-journey/

Clear messages that a) the M you had is gone b) you have to protect yourself the best you can and c) whether you want it or not, you are now on your own path of change and recovery

[Shocked]

Thanks Treasr for starting this discussion. It seems this group has many in acceptance. I agree that I can still cycle into any of the stages briefly. Mostly I have no choice to move my life forward to find new joy else where. I hope this discussion will help in how to do that!

[Treasur]

Lots of us do seem to be at/near Acceptance, don't we? Not sure why. Maybe proving how this community helps. Maybe it's about time because a lot of new folks don't find their way here straight away?

Prompted by Anjae.

Been musing on the RCR version of MLC stages and how it might help us think about the LBS path.(in italics)  It’s based on a Jungian concept of the Shadow Self, about Ego & Identity Strength. Absolutely not linear, and different phases can play out at the same time. For the MLCer and the LBS, it is fundamentally about evolving a new you through crisis.

Separation – prolonged by denial, driven by trying to prevent the inevitable feeling of something ‘not right’. Continues until see that you feel worse, that everything you have tried hasn’t ‘fixed’ it and too tired to run any longer. (I think as LBS we get to this point too, it’s what drags us towards Detachment & Acceptance. We can’t deny reality, and everything we’ve tried has failed so we have to find a way to live with it.)

1.   Rejection & Refusal – refusing to acknowledge issues, wanting to ignore an uncomfortable reality. (Where we all start, that sense of shock, obsessive focus on MLCer)
a.   Denying Reality – “It’s not happening” (Shock and hoping it will magically go away, feeling numb and frozen)
b.   Reducing Impact – “It’s not a big deal, it’s ok/normal” (Bargaining bit when we think we can adjust, take the edges off, make a holding pattern, influence them somehow)
c.   Justification – “I have no other option” (Needing control, reacting emotionally, feeling trapped or in limbo)
d.   Projection – “It’s your/their fault” (Feeling like a victim, controlled, hurt, as if others don’t get it or are not supportive)
2.   Resentment – anger driven by feeling inferior, powerless or out of control, fear and ‘why me’. (Confusion, anger, fear, not sure what to do and anxious about the impact on you and your family, starting to see some tough facts, feeling overwhelmed and how unfair it is)
3.   Replay/Covert Depression – avoiding guilt and fear through fantasy, cycling between anger and depression, control, confusion. (Healthy and not healthy GAL and self-care. Concerned about our own sanity sometimes. Experimenting to find ways to make ourselves feel better, if not the situation. Forcing ourselves to do tough things. Failing sometimes, doubt. Intellectual detachment)

Overt Depression – reality bites, grief, fear of nothingness, retreating inward, volatility, not sure what to do or if have courage to act. Continues until you find courage to accept where you are and decide to act. Depending on your choice, may move forward to uncertain Rebirth or may cycle back to Replay if still avoiding or Depression if stuck unable to act. (Grieving, hunting for answers, solutions and hope. Cycling through big emotions. Teaching ourselves to Detach, Let Go and trying to survive from day to day. Hunting for emotional detachment and stability)

Rebirth & Integration – anxiety and uncertainty, driven by need to heal and rebuild, process of experimentation to find comfort with new identity that incorporates old and new, issues of safety and control, trust, doubt and shame. Continues until feel ‘settled’ into new identity and confident enough to resolve outstanding issues and effects. (Acceptance and Renewal. Writing our own story, finding what works, feeling better about ourselves. Learning to live through what has happened. Focusing more on the future than the past. Deciding to focus on our own lives and what doors we want to keep open or not. Starting to see what we have gained as well as lost. Knowing we will be OK whatever happens. )


I wonder if by discussing the LBS route, we might be able to come up with a To Do/Not list for different stages. Like MLC, we can't skip it and it isn't linear, but maybe we can help ourselves navigate it better as we wish our MLC spouses could!

[waiting4]

Lots of us do seem to be at/near Acceptance, don't we? Not sure why. Maybe proving how this community helps. Maybe it's about time because a lot of new folks don't find their way here straight away?

Prompted by Anjae.

Been musing on the RCR version of MLC stages and how it might help us think about the LBS path.(in italics)  It’s based on a Jungian concept of the Shadow Self, about Ego & Identity Strength. Absolutely not linear, and different phases can play out at the same time. For the MLCer and the LBS, it is fundamentally about evolving a new you through crisis.

Separation – prolonged by denial, driven by trying to prevent the inevitable feeling of something ‘not right’. Continues until see that you feel worse, that everything you have tried hasn’t ‘fixed’ it and too tired to run any longer. (I think as LBS we get to this point too, it’s what drags us towards Detachment & Acceptance. We can’t deny reality, and everything we’ve tried has failed so we have to find a way to live with it.)

1.   Rejection & Refusal – refusing to acknowledge issues, wanting to ignore an uncomfortable reality. (Where we all start, that sense of shock, obsessive focus on MLCer)
a.   Denying Reality – “It’s not happening” (Shock and hoping it will magically go away, feeling numb and frozen)
b.   Reducing Impact – “It’s not a big deal, it’s ok/normal” (Bargaining bit when we think we can adjust, take the edges off, make a holding pattern, influence them somehow)
c.   Justification – “I have no other option” (Needing control, reacting emotionally, feeling trapped or in limbo)
d.   Projection – “It’s your/their fault” (Feeling like a victim, controlled, hurt, as if others don’t get it or are not supportive)
2.   Resentment – anger driven by feeling inferior, powerless or out of control, fear and ‘why me’. (Confusion, anger, fear, not sure what to do and anxious about the impact on you and your family, starting to see some tough facts, feeling overwhelmed and how unfair it is)
3.   Replay/Covert Depression – avoiding guilt and fear through fantasy, cycling between anger and depression, control, confusion. (Healthy and not healthy GAL and self-care. Concerned about our own sanity sometimes. Experimenting to find ways to make ourselves feel better, if not the situation. Forcing ourselves to do tough things. Failing sometimes, doubt. Intellectual detachment)

Overt Depression – reality bites, grief, fear of nothingness, retreating inward, volatility, not sure what to do or if have courage to act. Continues until you find courage to accept where you are and decide to act. Depending on your choice, may move forward to uncertain Rebirth or may cycle back to Replay if still avoiding or Depression if stuck unable to act. (Grieving, hunting for answers, solutions and hope. Cycling through big emotions. Teaching ourselves to Detach, Let Go and trying to survive from day to day. Hunting for emotional detachment and stability)

Rebirth & Integration – anxiety and uncertainty, driven by need to heal and rebuild, process of experimentation to find comfort with new identity that incorporates old and new, issues of safety and control, trust, doubt and shame. Continues until feel ‘settled’ into new identity and confident enough to resolve outstanding issues and effects. (Acceptance and Renewal. Writing our own story, finding what works, feeling better about ourselves. Learning to live through what has happened. Focusing more on the future than the past. Deciding to focus on our own lives and what doors we want to keep open or not. Starting to see what we have gained as well as lost. Knowing we will be OK whatever happens. )


I wonder if by discussing the LBS route, we might be able to come up with a To Do/Not list for different stages. Like MLC, we can't skip it and it isn't linear, but maybe we can help ourselves navigate it better as we wish our MLC spouses could!

 
WOW Treasur,  I really think you are on to something. I think we need a more open discussion on the LBS route.. I know I am not doing well right now, simply hanging on  but not sure what I'm hanging on to or why I'm putting myself through all this for someone that just walked out the door.. I know I love him , but I'm seeing that love isn't enough and even my H said that love isn't enough.. so right now I am feeling defeated, lost, unsure.. I'm in a bad place this morning..my emotions are reeling...

[Treasur]

I'm sorry waiting4, the cycling is exhausting, I know.
Where do you think you are mostly at in terms of LBS stage, even if you're dipping in and out of others?

My instinct is that, just as the MLC stages serve a purpose, a point you have to unconsciously maybe get to before moving forward...I wonder if there is a similar 'goal' for an LBS stage too? That each phase has a 'job' and if we see that, it might help us keep ourselves well and moving forward (if slowly sometimes!)

[Anjae]

I am sorry you are felling down, Waiting. Like Treasur said, cycling is exhausting.

I think we need a more open discussion on the LBS route.

We have four threads called LBS Stages:

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2625.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5734.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5789.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8078.0

The latest is a fixed thread on the Community Board. And there is no shortage of the trials and tribulations of the LBS journey in our individual threads.

I would also suggest reading RCR articles, both site and blog ones. Also RCR's Newbies, Read This  http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1149.0

My instinct is that, just as the MLC stages serve a purpose, a point you have to unconsciously maybe get to before moving forward...I wonder if there is a similar 'goal' for an LBS stage too?
That each phase has a 'job' and if we see that, it might help us keep ourselves well and moving forward (if slowly sometimes!)

I've had a MLC and been trought every LBS stage, but I don't have a clue what the purpose was. For me, MCL is pretty useless. It is something I think could be solved/mitigated, saving everyone a lot of pain, hurt and grief if only health professionals were trained to recognised it as soon as it shows (and that is way before BD) and knew how to deal with it.

I see absolutely no reason or purpose for all we and the MCLer go through. However, there are many views on what MLC is, and that, I think makes it very difficult for anyone to be looking for a way of making it not happening/prevent it/solve it/mitigate it.

I truly do not believe any of this was necessary nor that anyone is going to prefer to have done all the crazy stuff MLCers do. The only palpable thing I tend to see MLC doing is, often, leaving the LBS and children in a dire financial situation.

Yes, we recover emotionally from it, we carry on with our lives, but, often, the financial damages (and other damages) never go away.

I come arrived by googling Jung + MLC. Jung's theory is beautiful, but since Jung had a MCL himself (or at least suffered from mahor depression) and lead a less than stellar life afterwards, I have to wonder if his theory wasn't just a way of getting away with having a wife and a mistress under the same roof - even if Emma Jung, his wife, didn't mind. Jung married openly for money, Emma knew it and was fine with it. Jung also got emotionally and sexually involved with patients, which is truly less that stellar.

MLC is a term created by Canadian psychologist  Elliott Jaques and it refers to middle age men artistic creativeness and if they may, or may not, have a crisis of creativeness, not to what we see as a midlife crisis.

[xyzcf]

I wanted to comment from my own experience on this:

Rebirth & Integration: Focusing more on the future than the past.

I actually focus more on the present moment than the future.....I have learned that my future is not in my control really and that I should focus on the moment more...especially ones that bring me joy.

I am more aware of what matters to me now.

Anjae:

I see absolutely no reason or purpose for all we and the MCLer go through.

I agree. I was a very stable person prior to BD. I was very happy in my life and loved this man...still do.

I see no purpose in any off this, for me, for my daughter and most of all for him. Perhaps he will resolve some issues that he carried with him, perhaps he is more content on his own.

Any "growth" I may have had could have occurred in a much less painful way. I had always been on a path of self actualization, if anything, this caused me to loose several years of my life and without any beneficial differences in who I am or what I have become.

No, this has not been a necessary experience in my life...maybe it has for some people..I cannot speak for them.

[Anjae]

I agree with Xyzcf, Rebirth & Reintegration for me is more focussing on the present, on each day, at each moment.

Any "growth" I may have had could have occurred in a much less painful way. I had always been on a path of self actualization, if anything, this caused me to loose several years of my life and without any beneficial differences in who I am or what I have become.

Same here.  Lost finances, lost health (now fortunately much better, but all the stress of MLC, court cases, nasty MLCer, etc did a number on me), lost lifestyle that I loved, etc.

Do we really need to be subject to the excruciating amounts of stress, and the damages it causes, that come with MLC? What for?

This is a strong comparison, but is like saying WWII, the Nazis and the camps had a purpose and were necessary for people to become better versions of themselves. Sure, the after WWII saw Europe having peace, but was it really necessary? And, currently, peace in Europe looks frails and people do not seem to have learned with past mistakes.

The idea that MLC is going to lead to a new better version of a person comes from Jung's ideas, even, like I said in my previous post, he never used the term MLC. It is just theories. There is no scientific basis to it. I know when they are out of crisis MLCers seem to become better version of themselves, but that may more due to all the horrots they may have been through and never want to go there again.

What is known is that prolonged stress will have neurologic impact. And that, when it comes to neurology, re-living a trauma is not a good thing, since it will ring alarm bells in the brain - PTSD is an easy way of understanding it - causing more and more damage.

The whole, lets re-live the trauma in order to cure/heal it is at odds with neurology/neuroscience and brain health. It is one of those, for me, bizarre things from therapy. It is illogic from a neurologic and wellbeing point of view.

And, of course, if one seems MLC has an emotional issue that has to be lived through, one will think that there is nothing to be done. Currently, there is nothing to be done because we don't know how/what to do. But that does not means it will always be like that.

I don't know if MLCers resolve their issues, my mini crisis didn't seem to have any issues to be solved. At least I do not recall any issues nor had resolved them. But what I was never managed to understand, and no one here or eleswhere as ever had a good enough answer, is how adding more problems/issues is going to make it less heavy for the MLCer and easier to solve any pre-existing issues. The consensus is that it makes it harder for them to solve whatever problems there may be. If so, then, MLC really brings not benefit. At least not on the issues level.

[Treasur]

Seems like many of us muse on the 'purpose' of MLC, if it is 'real', what causes it and what shape people are in if they ever return to someone close to the person they were. I don't know. I change my mind sometimes.

But I'd like to pull the discussion back to US, the LBS.

I think people come here mainly for three reasons; for hope, for advice and perhaps most of all to protect their sanity. None of us chose this, but we find ourselves here in a situation that often makes no sense at all. We are dealing with something that is incomprehensible to us. Something that, no matter what we do, we can't seem to cut through or work round. And something that most people we talk to don't get or dismiss as real. Finding your own reality making no sense is one thing; having your reality (that you can't ignore) dismissed by others is s$it icing on a s$it cake. No wonder so many of us can feel like we're losing the plot...and then we come here, and suddenly bits start to make sense. In a WTF way, true. It doesn't change what we have to deal with, but we start to see that we're not imagining this and we're not the only one.

When people said to me in the past "everything happens for a reason", I would want to punch them. So, saying there is a 'purpose' to LBS stages isn't meant like that. More that, having found ourselves in the horrific crazy situation, there seems to be a process for an LBS and that process seems to have a rhythm. Maybe it's an adjustment process that hopefully becomes a healing one. There are differences in our experiences - in our spouses, our situation, our personalities and priorities - but there seems to be a common thread too.

I just find myself musing (with the benefit of hindsight) if the different phases we go through as LBS naturally focus on an end point. If the sudden fracturing of our lives mirrors some of the stages of MLC.

Many of us start here by trying to 'get' MLC and focusing on our MLCer. But I wonder if the real purpose of this community is to support the LBS in their own recovery no matter what the MLCer does or the outcome. And if knowing that different things help (and why) at different phases for the LBS is also about validation and hope in the trenches.

[Anjae]

MLC is real. We are all dealing with its consequences.

More that, having found ourselves in the horrific crazy situation, there seems to be a process for an LBS and that process seems to have a rhythm. Maybe it's an adjustment process that hopefully becomes a healing one.

In that sense, yes, there is a purpose to the LBS journey. The process does have a rhythm. And I do think it becomes a healing one.

I just find myself musing (with the benefit of hindsight) if the different phases we go through as LBS naturally focus on an end point. If the sudden fracturing of our lives mirrors some of the stages of MLC.

An end point? The end point is healing, I think. Yes, I think some of the LBS stages mirror MLC ones, even the names do so. But the journeys are done differently. The LBS realises much faster than it has to heal and move forward. The MLCer remains trapped in MLC la la land for years on end.

But I wonder if the real purpose of this community is to support the LBS in their own recovery no matter what the MLCer does or the outcome.

Of course it is. That is obvious by what we do, regardless of the outcome.

And if knowing that different things help (and why) at different phases for the LBS is also about validation and hope in the trenches.

Yes. But what works for one LBS may not work for another.