[Thundarr]

Still standing,

You are not unclear, yet I believe at some point the person with whom the covenant was made ceases to exist.  Just as death ends the covenant, so too do I believe that death of the spirit or identity should also release one from the covenant.  The WAS will either have to answer for the breaking of the covenant someday, or will be forgiven if they truly had no control.  If it becomes clear to me that my W will never return, or that she will never return to being the woman I married then I would no longer stand.  I don't know when that will be, or if it will (of course I hope it doesn't happen) but that is my belief.  Is the covenant made with the body or the soul?  As I posted on my thread, I feel my W is dead.  Will she be resurrected?  As my friend HFF on LT says, only God knows and only time will tell.

Peace to you, Stillstanding.

[Love being on higher grounds]

Thundarr,
I need to ask a question here...one of my D's is 11 and I have been at this quite a while longer than you, with my husband being the one out in another world...

How would your standing/not standing affect whether or not you daughter has her mother in her life?

hugs,
L

[Thundarr]

My W has rarely acted as a mother from the past 10 months and has rejected the little ones repeatedly.  If, after a period of time, it becomes likely that she will not return to the role of mother in their lives and continues to reject them then I will be forced to choose in their best interest.  I do not want my children growing up in a single parent home and without a mother figure, so if God leads me to marry again in the best interest of the kids then so I shall.  Again, I hope that never comes to pass.

[StillStanding]

You are not unclear, yet I believe at some point the person with whom the covenant was made ceases to exist.  Just as death ends the covenant, so too do I believe that death of the spirit or identity should also release one from the covenant.

So who decides when that "death of identity" happens? I don't remember anything like that described in the Bible.

The WAS will either have to answer for the breaking of the covenant someday, or will be forgiven if they truly had no control.

Maybe I misunderstood you; are you talking about your wife divorcing you, or you divorcing your life? If it's the former, then I agree—if she breaks the covenant, then she has to accept the consequences. But what you said made it sound like you were going to be the one who ended the marriage. You can't hang the blame for that choice on your wife.

If it becomes clear to me that my W will never return, or that she will never return to being the woman I married then I would no longer stand.  I don't know when that will be, or if it will (of course I hope it doesn't happen) but that is my belief.

How can you know that your wife will never return? Have you read ANYTHING anyone has said on here about MLC?

Yes, it is possible that your wife could be one of the few who never recover from their crisis, or recover but are so plagued with guilt that they don't feel like they can ever return. But it is unlikely that will be the case, and whether or not she can feel safe coming to you when the crisis is over depends on your actions.

I've used the metaphor of Orpheus and Eurydice before, to describe Standing for an MLCer. When Eurydice is killed by stepping on a poisoned snake, Orpheus travels to the underworld to reclaim her. Hades tells Orpheus that he can leave the underworld and have his wife back, but he has to walk in front of her and cannot look back to see if his wife is following him while they climb. If he makes it to the surface without looking back, then his wife will be returned to him. If he looks back, then she will return to the underworld forever.

As Orpheus makes his way to the surface, he can't hear anything behind him. He begins to doubt himself (Perhaps Hades is tricking him? Maybe something went wrong?) and, with the gates to the land of the living in sight, he turns around and sees his wife—for an instant, before she is whisked back to Hades.

I'm not saying that your wife will come out of the crisis in 7 years and a day. It might be 4 years; it might be 9. (9 years would be a bit extreme, as would 7.)

As I posted on my thread, I feel my W is dead.

Your wife is not dead; she is a living, breathing person who is in crisis. Your "feeling" is just that—it's a feeling; an opinion. Stop using your wife's crisis as an excuse for your own behavior.

[limitless]

Still Standing......

You are, I would say, brutally honest......

I agree with what you have written.....although I don't know that I would say it in quite the same way.   

The metaphor of Orpheus and Eurydice is an excellent one!  It fits the LBS and MLC quite well - as during this deep, dark middle - it can be very discouraging and there are few (if any) signs of progress.  As RCR states, there is unlikely to be any signs.....as progress in beneath the surface.

Thundarr -

I remember first coming to this site and reading that ANY return within 2 years would be and EARLY return.  And, I thought to myself - TWO YEARS!  My H will be gone for 2 YEARS!  It seemed an eternity.  And, I guess it seemed so long to me - as all I could think about was WHEN?  WHEN?  WHEN? 

As time goes by - and you learn about MLC - and think about your situation....or at least when I have thought about MY situation - I've realized - there is NO going back...only moving forward.  And I've realized it isn't as simple as just returning....and I have given up concerning myself with WHEN?  WHEN?  WHEN?

I do not have a Covenant marriage.....and yet I can't see myself with someone else.  Maybe I will feel differently in the future....I don't know.  I do know that MLC takes time...(lots of time).....and I was married to my H for 30 years prior to BD.....A 30 year relationship, the love that I had for him...and for our family - is worth giving my H the time to deal with his issues and doing some needed work on myself, as well.   

I don't think you can ever KNOW that your spouse is not going to come out of it - or return.  The only thing you can KNOW (I guess) is when YOU are done.  And, for me, it's too early to even consider.  I know the man I married, the man I had children with....the great father he was (but isn't NOW) - and that man was worth so much.....he really was. 

A day at a time...that's all we can do. 

Thundarr - I would bet that back after BD you would not or could not have seen yourself managing as you have.....dealing with your W, as she is right now.  And yet, you have.

It seems to me that you vent.....and that's okay - just acknowledge that venting is what it is.......

One other thing.....I did accept that I could do nothing to shorten the time my H would spend in the tunnel.....and I truly believe that through my actions (reactions) - the only thing I could do was to prolong it.....so I leave him to it...

limitless

[unbroken]

Well, I read the book.  (There's another thread on here about it)  It is very insightful.  I recommend it.  It's a quick read, or at least was for me, perhaps because I was so interested. 
No one plans to stand for 7 years.  I would have NEVER thought I'd be here at 4 1/2 years. You take it one day at a time.  You find love for your spouse.  You remember the person they were and believe they could be again.  You wait because it seems to be the right thing to do.
In the story...  The wife left.  She was unhappy.  THought it was her H.  She thought she was done.  They got a divorce.  The wife had a boyfriend.  He moved across the country to live with her at which point she decided that she didn't want him, she wanted her marriage back.  This was a year or two in.  The wife then asked the exH if there was any chance they could get back together.  He basically told her no way in he!!.  They each then had to live their life as they saw fit.  They saw each other because of the kids and were pleasant.  The wife ended up deciding to stand.  Felt called by God.  Sort of dated a bit, but it didn't feel right to her. 5 more years passed.  More or less the same with the H and then eventually they decided to give it another try.  They used that time to grow in themselves.  Realized that the other person wasn't the problem.
I know someone with a similar story, but a shorter timeline.  Wife unhappy, left, divorced, lived with another guy, eventually decided that she loved her exH, went back, got remarried, had another kid, doing well.
It happens.  But I really don't think it happens unless the people find God and their greater purpose in life.

Thundarr, you never know what you'll do.  And don't think you're doing your kids any favors by finding them a new "Mom". Or don't kid yourself that you're doing it for the kids when you'll more likely be doing it for yourself.  They have a Mom whether she's acting like it or not.  One day at a time.  It's too overwhelming otherwise.

[Mitzpah]

Interesting replies...
I think I would love to read the book and I share Loveisntweakness's opinion that

I really don't think it happens unless the people find God and their greater purpose in life.

That said, StillStanding's application of the Orpheus and Eurydice metaphor is fantastic as is Limitless's reply, especially:

It fits the LBS and MLC quite well - as during this deep, dark middle - it can be very discouraging and there are few (if any) signs of progress.  As RCR states, there is unlikely to be any signs.....as progress in beneath the surface.

and

I don't think you can ever KNOW that your spouse is not going to come out of it - or return.  The only thing you can KNOW (I guess) is when YOU are done.  And, for me, it's too early to even consider.  I know the man I married, the man I had children with....the great father he was (but isn't NOW) - and that man was worth so much.....he really was. 

A day at a time...that's all we can do. 

Thundarr - I would bet that back after BD you would not or could not have seen yourself managing as you have.....dealing with your W, as she is right now.  And yet, you have.

It seems to me that you vent.....and that's okay - just acknowledge that venting is what it is.......

One other thing.....I did accept that I could do nothing to shorten the time my H would spend in the tunnel.....and I truly believe that through my actions (reactions) - the only thing I could do was to prolong it.....so I leave him to it...

This is how I feel, so I continue ahead, asking God to help me work on me, change me into the person He wants me to be and keeping my eyes trained forward, I cannot look back to see what my h. is doing.

It is so uplifting to read about couples who get through, however it is quite discouraging to look at some of the timelines. So, yes, lets set our hand to the plough and not look back! I heard the other day a comment from a pastor who warns about mixing up the spheres of  God's ability to restore and man's free will, he said we have to remember that God does not force Himself on anyone, but that His way of doing things is like the winter rains, the soft spring rains like it says in Hosea (He stood for many years for his wife!) 6:3

Let us acknowledge the LORD;
   let us press on to acknowledge him.
As surely as the sun rises,
   he will appear;
he will come to us like the winter rains,
   like the spring rains that water the earth.”

[Thundarr]

Stillstanding - Limitless was very tactful in her choice of words describing your response, but I will be blunt.  I feel it was patronizing and judgmental along with some degree of spite.  I take no offense, however, as I understand we are all hurting and trying to find answers where often there are none.  There should be no enemies here yet disagreements should be welcomed.  We are all in this together, brother.  I pray peace to you as you have struggled much longer than I.

I do feel that the W that I have is for all intents and purposes dead (at least right now).  The picture I saw of the glowing and caring person is now part of history as that person has ceased to exist.  Her eyes are dead and I detect no indication that she is not thinking logically at this time, and in fact her argument that the D or SA would be grounds to claim hardship on the loan modification was sound although not what I wanted to hear.  I still hold out hope of R and that the D will not go through.  In my state, if it is not finalized a year after being filed it is thrown out.  She, of course, could re-file it but that would take extra effort and money.  I feel she has realized the deadline (probably reminded by her lawyer boy BFF) and will be acting sooner rather than later.  For some of us these months have not been about wondering if or waiting, but rather having to face the cold hard truth that our spouses have already taken actions to remove us from their lives permanently.  Although we all handle things differently, the destruction of my family is not only a possibility any more but a strong probability.  That changes alot of things.

While I am a man of faith and believe I have seen signs that God is watching over me and my family, the reality is that this cannot go on forever.  I would never take the step of ending the marriage unless my W had passed the point of going back.  She may be lost forever and never find the courage to face whatever is pushing her, or she may find someone who will ensure that the door to our family is shut forever.  I owe it to my kids to give them the opportunity that she has so callously taken away - to grow up in a loving family that is not struggling for money always due to being a single-earner home.  I have worked too hard for my kids to grow up doing without, and also cannot stomach them growing up without a mother who is there for them.  Although my W is their biological mother, there is much more to it and if she rejects them further they have a right to have their needs met.  I also do not plan to spend the rest of my life alone.  If my marriage ends and I get to a point where it is clear there will be no R then I will be done.  I believe God will send a sign that my M is over when it truly is, and as Mitz said God does not trump free will.  It will ultimately be up to my W to either return or to be gone forever.  It is no longer up to me.

[limitless]

Stillstanding - Limitless was very tactful in her choice of words describing your response, but I will be blunt.  I feel it was patronizing and judgmental along with some degree of spite.  I take no offense, however, as I understand we are all hurting and trying to find answers where often there are none.  There should be no enemies here yet disagreements should be welcomed.  We are all in this together, brother.  I pray peace to you as you have struggled much longer than I.

I do feel that the W that I have is for all intents and purposes dead (at least right now).  The picture I saw of the glowing and caring person is now part of history as that person has ceased to exist.  Her eyes are dead and I detect no indication that she is not thinking logically at this time, and in fact her argument that the D or SA would be grounds to claim hardship on the loan modification was sound although not what I wanted to hear.  I still hold out hope of R and that the D will not go through.  In my state, if it is not finalized a year after being filed it is thrown out.  She, of course, could re-file it but that would take extra effort and money.  I feel she has realized the deadline (probably reminded by her lawyer boy BFF) and will be acting sooner rather than later.  For some of us these months have not been about wondering if or waiting, but rather having to face the cold hard truth that our spouses have already taken actions to remove us from their lives permanently.  Although we all handle things differently, the destruction of my family is not only a possibility any more but a strong probability.  That changes alot of things.

While I am a man of faith and believe I have seen signs that God is watching over me and my family, the reality is that this cannot go on forever.  I would never take the step of ending the marriage unless my W had passed the point of going back.  She may be lost forever and never find the courage to face whatever is pushing her, or she may find someone who will ensure that the door to our family is shut forever.  I owe it to my kids to give them the opportunity that she has so callously taken away - to grow up in a loving family that is not struggling for money always due to being a single-earner home.  I have worked too hard for my kids to grow up doing without, and also cannot stomach them growing up without a mother who is there for them.  Although my W is their biological mother, there is much more to it and if she rejects them further they have a right to have their needs met.  I also do not plan to spend the rest of my life alone.  If my marriage ends and I get to a point where it is clear there will be no R then I will be done.  I believe God will send a sign that my M is over when it truly is, and as Mitz said God does not trump free will.  It will ultimately be up to my W to either return or to be gone forever.  It is no longer up to me.

Thundarr,

I have responded to your post on your thread.

L

[hobo1]

WGH - Thanks so much for posting that link.

Although I know it is not likely in many situations, including mine, this shows that there can be hope, even if it means it's going to be 7 years later.

I agree with Thundarr in many respects.  There will be some point in time that the LBSer will stop standing...  7 years seems like an extremely long time to stand.  I know many on the board who are multiple year standers, and I applaud you.  I am not.   Unless your intention is to remain single, it would seem that you are giving up 7 precious years of your life. 

Having been divorced for 2 weeks now, I feel the anger that the husband in the video felt.  In the video, it seemed like the wife wanted to get back together pretty quickly after the divorce, but the husband was the one who could not forgive.  I may not be able to if my W came back today too.  In that respect, I will not call myself a stander.

I just think it's not as simple as - oops, I made a mistake, let me write a letter, and make it all ok.