[Not Applicable]

When I was 10 years old, I went to a local day summer camp. There was a girl who was a year older than me at the camp and i really liked her and looked up to her. The last night of the camp was a sleepover in a local park. I wanted to sleep in the same tent as that girl, but she told me, "No, this tent is only for the big kids." A real slap in the face. But looking back, hey, she was still 11 years old, hardly mature herself. She can be forgiven, someone older, not so much.

You remind me of that 11 year old. Maybe you should edit your original post and indicate how long we have to have been dealing with our spouse's MLC to participate. Maybe you should edit it to indicate that this post is only for non-standers who have already made their choice not to accept their spouse back. Maybe you should indicate that those of us who "still" have "monster" husbands shouldn't participate (although from reading some of your posts it sounds like your H's monster was still going strong after 9 years whereas mine has been almost entirely burned out since 18 months post-BD ) God forbid you should have anyone who hasn't made their mind up yet, or worse yet, who is choosing to stand for their spouse and their marriage to participate in a discussion about the LBS's choice. Maybe you should just indicate this is one of those threads that is exclusively for the "He can have the ugly wh*r^. I don't want him. Hope the karma bus hits both of them. I am so 'happy' with my new boyfriend that I am still hanging out in a forum for standers after all these years" crowd. And you actually wonder why you don't hear many reconciliation stories. Maybe it's because on threads like this, you are insisting you don't want to actually HEAR those stores.

My husband is a good man, who I am sure has no desire to hurt me, who has made some rash decisions that WE will have to deal with forever. However, he has never wavered on being willing to STAND by me forever as my husband, even if he is not acting like himself now due to a state of emotional numbness. He asked me recently, why do you stay with me? I told him one thing-because every marriage has its good times and its bad times, maybe this is our bad time, but it doesn't mean I dump and abandon you. And you don't know all our circumstances but I can tell you my husband is CHOOSING to stand with me as well through circumstances that weren't of his liking either. We support one another as best as we can right now. That's what is important.

I accept that maybe I don't get you, because I don't have a husband who has "left" in the traditional sense like you have. I have a man who hasn't "left" me but probably could be better described has having "left" himself.

I make my choice to stay with my H every day. I see transformation and change and improvements happening rapidly. Reconnection/touch and go/reconciliation, all these are just a continuum. I don't worry where he is at the moment, what's important is the forward movement, and I see it all the time, Thank God. If that ever stops and stalls at a point that is unacceptable, then I will make a different choice.

Oh, and I don't know what the "special type" of abuse you think I am suffering from but you have no right to call my husband an abuser. Yes we are going through difficult times but I will stand up to a total stranger who doesn't know him ABUSING the man who has stood by me all these years. Keep to your big kid tent and stay out of mine.

[Velika]

I am going to say (even though I know this is a discussion intended for those who are further along etc.) that I kind of agree with Goner about what appears to be a truism on this site, and that is, "In the end, it's the LBS who decides."

Unfortunately, even if there are a million qualifiers to this, a person who is newly traumatized and shocked into submission is extremely vulnerable to a promise like this. I know I was one of those people!

I think that unless we know what we are dealing with, we can't say this with certainty, and even then it is hard to make this statement. It is true that many MLC seems to follow a pattern. But, what if this is cyclothemia, bipolar, (avert your eyes) bvFTD, personality disorder, etc.? What if this is just an exit affair or the end to an abusive relationship? In this case, I think that this truism can be very dangerous. It can confuse a person for whom even a month of this feels like an eternity in hell. It can lead someone to make very bad decisions.

I'm not sure what the answer is. As humans, we cling to hope. In a state of trauma, it is easy to slip into fantasy thinking, and that includes revenge fantasies (MLCer is miserable and ultimately we will have our turn to reject them back) as well as happy ending fantasies (MLCer will transform into the person we always knew he/she could become, and they will win us back in new and improved form).

MLCer has to be the strangest wormhole of them all. I feel at times it is almost a hole in the Matrix. So I get that there is a peculiar logic and pattern to it that defies understanding, like a bizarre natural phenomenon, an energetic geyser if you will. So in many ways, I get what you are saying AB, when you make this qualification to your original post. I guess I feel as Goner does, however, a bit skeptical that this is really worth repeating so often on this site.

[Treasur]

I would like to keep this thread about the main topic: those that have MLCers that have shown signs of emerging from the tunnel, and the decisions that will have to be made by the LBSer.

Thank you for clarifying, AF...I had misunderstood seeing it more broadly. Maybe adapt the thread title a bit?

When you look through the archives, tbh, I think there are more stories of reconnection than we think. They seem to stay white because LBS are unsure and then seem to go in one of two ways...turn out to be a premature return and LBS keep posting, or turn into a more demanding reconnection process and many LBS stop posting or not so often.

I still think, like V said, it is a phrase which can be misunderstood and understandably makes newbies feel better when you feel that life has suddenly removed choices from you. I still think that both have choice...but perhaps the 'flavour' of how we see real reconnection attempts is a bit more like a dance when the MLC spouse 'asks' the LBS...the LBS gets to choose if their dance card is full with better offers, I guess!

[Snowdrop]

Hi everyone,

None of the following is about this thread but just in general.

I rarely post anymore on the site but do read from time to time.  One of my reasons for not posting is that I am tired of the online bullying and aggression.  There was a time when this was a great place to come, but I see cliques and high school behaviour and bullying and meanness...on a regular basis.  I have posted before and others have talked around me making sure I get the message I'm not invited to the party.  There are certain members I avoid and refuse to take part in any thread where they are involved as I know they like to remind all that they know the most and therefore can decide who will be welcomed into the conversation or not. This makes me sick to the core.

Believe me when I say I don't care one bit as I don't look to them for my validation, however, I feel for the new person recently experiencing BD and who is looking for support.  The behaviour of some is disgraceful when always looking for a fight.  Just stop.  Healthy debate is okay and interesting, but aggression is not.

BD for us was 5 1/2 years ago.  I used to read how it would ultimately be the choice of the LBS if the MLCer returns, and I could not understand how that could be, especially when it was H who created this mess and how our lives were turned upside down due to his "decision making".  Surely, he was the only one who held all the cards and therefore only he would decide how this would end.

Not anymore.  I am the LBS in our situation and yes I will be the one who decides whether or not he comes back to this family.  I understand he has to make the move to come home first, but there's no point as he is no longer welcome.

I think back to BD and how I thought we needed him in order to make our family complete.  He threw us into turmoil and we had no choice but to survive it, making us realize that we have done just fine and in fact now wouldn't change it or go back to what we had with him.  I used to think all we needed to do was get him home, but now the thought of him ever showing up makes me nauseous.  I never want to see him again. 

Yes he created all of this and got to leave and carry on his new life with OW far away where he can never be questioned and he can live his life of lies.  We live in truth and honesty, whether it hurts or not, and with that there is no option to have him back.  I don't want to spend the rest of my life making him feel better about what he did.  It is over.

There is indeed truth in that yes, I believe, the LBS does have the final say.  Then again, that's just my two pence.

[Treasur]

I agree with you Snowdrop about posts that seem a bit aggressive or judging or competitive about differences in a situation. I know I've had days when I've chosen not to post on a thread because my emotions about my situation that day might get in the way. There are 'seasons' for some kind of advice or questions maybe depending on where we are in LBS stages...I'm sure if I'd found this site a year earlier it would have really helped me progress a bit quicker through the early stages.

Sometimes as LBS we do need a loving challenge if we're flailing around or stuck. But what all of us need most, especially as newbies, is the understanding kindness that we often can't find in RL. The validation that we are not insane, and the cheerleading as we start to pick ourselves up or make hard choices to protect ourselves and our kids.

[OffRoad]

Roll and scroll for what doesn't apply to me or with posters who might come across as boorish. Only we can decide for ourselves what works for us or doesn't. Someone elses version of reality is not necessarily mine. Another great lesson I've learned.

As to the LBS gets to decide, they have always gotten to decide, IMO. Whether the MLCER comes back, or not. True, as a newbie we can't see it, we think our lives have been destroyed forever, but the destruction is only temporary. We all rise like a phoenix from the ashes, some take longer than others, but it happens IF WE CHOOSE.

We can only choose how we, as an LBS or as a human being, are going to deal with any situation. So, yes. The LBS gets to choose, at any point, whether they want to stand, not stand, or stand until. We don't get to choose if our MLCER stays or goes, if they monster or not, if they steal the lawnmower or leave the surfboards. But we don't get to choose when people we love will die, if we get cancer, or whether our house gets destroyed in the next major fire or mudslide, either. Why should we think dealing with MLC should be any different?

I know that isn't quite what you were referring to, Absolutely Fab, but IMO, it's 100 %  true. The LBS ALWAYS gets to choose, even from day one. We just can't see it for the grief. And if the MLCER wants to reconnect or reconcile, we still get to choose.

For me, mine would have to be on his knees with remorse or have proof that he really does have a neurological condition that caused this.  I have no need for an entitled, broken man to come back and make my life miserable. I have no desire to have a man who flaunts an OW at me (though mine never has, still see no hide nor hair of one), I have no desire to keep doing all the heavy lifting in a one sided relationship. I deserve better than to be disrepected, manipulated, abandoned, and thrown away like a piece of trash. Everyone else's mileage will vary, as we each have our boundaries that we will not allow to be crossed, and everyone's is different.

Two years ago, my answer would likely have been different.

[1phoenix]

The choices are even with the lbs from the start.  It just takes time, wonderful, precious, loving, hard spent, hard worked, hard fought, thoughtful soul searching time to see.

IMHO, it would take someone who has a core and soul of stone to see those choices at the beginning. That should be something that every lbs is grateful for. 

[Whyus]

I truely believe that most, maybe as much as 80% MLCers evtl. wake up and try to reconnect/come home.  The Problem is that it happens too late for most LBS and they have moved on by that time in one way or another.

At first the LBS wants nothing more than the MLC to reconnect but as time moves on (certainly in my case) the LBS starts to see whats happened for what it is. It may be a sickness/Depression but all the choices, the betrayal and lies were concious decisions and hurt in the worst way possible.

I have made the decision to live as though my W will never return and she probably wont (I am Aware that most totally hate the LBS and Show absolutely no signs that they would ever be interested again one year after BD). I have met somebody who worships me and we are a good fit which obviously makes it easier. Probably in the same way that OM made it easier for W to leave and destroy everything which we had built together.

 If my W does happen to try and reconnect at a later stage then I will concider my Actions on that day and no sooner. I have filed for D and I cannot accept this creature as my W any longer and I believe that a D at this stage really is irrelevant to what may happen in years to come.

Just my opinion, sorry if a Little OT but the flow of this thread is getting confusing.

[Keep believing]

Im not sure who decides . But when i get to the point of quitting my stand , i cant help but think of my children.  Marriage is not about 2 people. Its about family. My youngest will be graduating hs this year. I cant help but think of the future for my kids. Splitting holidays , no family sunday dinners all together maybe with grandchilren. My h and i had that. Family things together just for a pizza night and such even with extended family. Thats what keeps me standing. I woke up today thinking.  H has a mental illness.  Do you leave people who are visible sick?  I have bared all with my h in his crisis. All monstering and affair and such. Would it be worth getting past all that to have a family baclk together? I think so. He is not in his right mind clearly. So i guess my point is , would i make the decision to try puuting it back together. Probably . But right now. ,i particularly do not have that choice. After 3/12 years . So at this point i feel. , the mlcer has the choice.

[barbiedoll]

I've been off the forum for a while, but I've noticed something on other sites: it's the LBSer not the MLCer that decides if the MLCer can come back.

If and/or when the MLCer finally emerges from the tunnel is not the determinant, it's the LBSers decision, not the MLCers.

.

There is nothing more 100% true than this statement and I have often reminded LBS of this fact. It is 100% fact...the LBS holds the cards ( so to speak) and has total control over whether or not the MLC spouse is permitted home. I remember my monster-man sauntering across my deck and saying "If I decide to come home...I will let you know" .   WHATS THAT??  Well there was about 3 second of peace and the biggest fact was delivered.. " Just so YOU know H, the decision about whether or not you will ever be back it this house, whether you will ever be back in this marriage or whether you are ever  the head of this family ...is firetrucking mine!  Your say in this is ZERO. Less than  ZERO. ! So saunter your adolescent self off MY firetruckin deck!".

they expect to continue to feel loved and respected. Well, it doesn't work that way.

.

I have experienced this . He believed he had "every right to finally be happy" and his actions would ensure this elusive happiness. He was insanely blind to what else his "actions" might ensure. Compartmentalization? It was painfull to watch actually but of course the natural progression of things. He was no longer loved (the same way) and he was in some ways "feared" because no one knew him. He once got very angry with my second oldest daughter . He started to say"listen young lady, you are not my judge and jury and...blah blah . She hung up on him. NEVER would she have been able to do that with her "real" dad. Utter loss of respect , and well earned I must say. Oblivious to consequences and shocked when they appeared.

So really reading all the "detach, work on yourself, live like they are not coming back (which always was bull$h!te advice in my opinion and still is very much so), blah blah blah" just is not helpful anymore.

.

Wow!

[quotethis has been a common theme on this forum for as long as I can remember and I have been on-and-off the forum for 5 years now. I learned this fact on this forum many years ago. ][/quote].

Yes! I have myself discussed this many times on HS and have seen it pointed on many times. It is (I thought) a well know fact.

To be honest, I think this "the LBS is the one who makes the choice" is just one of these mantras is supposed to make us feel good and empowered.

.

Ahhhh, so perhaps a statement to "blow some pretty smoke up our ass?". I could not disagree more and rather offensive. It is "assumed" that the MLC spouse wants to return, otherwise the question does not apply. The LBS has the ultimate say IF the MLC spouse wants to return to the marriage.

Having said this, it’s empowering taking the focus off the MLCer and onto what the LBSer may or may not want for themselves. Standing or not, the bottom line is what the LBSer wants after this experience. Pick up the pieces or move on without looking back?

.

Yes!

this is an interesting discission... I may be confued on this so please correct me if im wrong.. but i have not read where the MLCer "HAS TO COME BACK".. i have read they go through the tunnel, some can get stuck in the tunnel.. some can coem out and be so changed that they choose to stay with OW... so am i missing something?

.

Some never come out of it and never ever want to return to the marriage. A permanent "stuck" I guess. I assumed the question applied to a situation where the MLC spouse has made a decision to return. That is his last decision. After that , the LBS now has some (all) the power and control in their lives. THEY decide the fate of the marriage, whether to reconcile or not etc etc .

This post is really about being empowered.

.

Yes. That I how I interpreted this discussion.

Is it possible that the reason those stories are not seen is because
*When they try and post things out for outside advice, they are shredded by other posters
*There is not a great deal of support for those reconnecting and starting to reconcile

You are so right in your stance that it is the LBS who gets to choose how the relationship proceed.  They are shoes that unless one has walked, it cannot be understood. 

.

Yes Yes and Yes... all very well said. And understood ... because I have had those shoes !

One of my reasons for not posting is that I am tired of the online bullying and aggression.  There was a time when this was a great place to come, but

.

This is sadly true. Some need to purchase a filter and simply seem to want to attack and fight. That starts to show up repeatedly in certain posters ..and it is difficult to continue dealing with them. But not posting because of them is an opportunity lost for yourself ..and that is unacceptable. Some people are sent as a challenge to you as a sign of something more you need to learn ...I try to keep that perspective. I have learned to ignore some people and seek out others ...to get what I need.

but the flow of this thread is getting confusing.