[AlvinTheMaker]

So... As I'm now walking the path towards D, I have started the process of cleaning my closet from ghosts, skeletons, spiderweb and absolutely anything that might create regrets on later point in life if left unsaid.

One important part is the mistakes made. We all make mistakes, and a twenty year marriage is guaranteed to include lots of mistakes that neither LBS or MLCr acknowledged before this crisis and self work.

I know MLC behaviour hurt as all very deeply, but I'm sure all of us have seen also our own mistakes along the road. Some are onetime offences, some are serial violations (my biggest sin being that I cheated by putting too much time into life happening and things other than our interpersonal R, allowing W to drift apart).... I'm now taking full accountability of even the slightest of mistakes never voiced aloud. Saying out the apology of specific action, and how sorry I am not for not understanding the hurt it must have caused at the time.

And in this process I'm understanding that we all learn of mistakes. If this marriage was a twenty year practice run, then it definitely made me lot better equipped for next R. And it will be better, way better regardless of who it happens (still thinking our partners are temporarily insane by giving up a 20 years investment/training of making another person grow and then let someone else reap the results).

Needless to say, the apology situation is like game with score of 10-0. The MLCr has not made a single apology and that is okey as well. This is me paving the way, setting an example she may or may not follow when done with her demons. It must be somewhat impossible to genuinely apologize when dealing with low self-esteem, resentment, stress/anxiety and god knows what that MLCr must deal with it. To accumulate all that hurt and to not be able to be vulnerable and human; it makes their own hell they will roast and cook.

I'm curious... Those of you decided to walk out
of your M (and/or dropped the rope) , did you do this process I'm now doing? Or if you did not do so, then why?

And at what point did you do so? When hammer was knocked, or as early as possible (my sitch, the papers are in but still living under same roof - I want my part said before I move out).

Alvin.

[Treasur]

Perhaps the most important question is why you want to do that?

Imho words are largely wasted at a certain point; our spouse doesn't want to hear us.
And if they do, it becomes a false equivalence....we apologise for normal human failings which they convert into blame and justification for rather worse things that they do not apologise for or stop doing. And it can varnish over the reality that this is not a mutual ending to a m, not a reciprocal parting.

You said on.a post recently that you now see that perhaps you pursued too much?

This is me paving the way, setting an example she may or may not follow when done with her demons.

If this is why you want to do it, is this not more of the same? (Which is normal, Alvin, most of us have done it....which is why perhaps we see it so clearly in others actions)

Like me, you like words. But perhaps it is worth considering if this is a time for less words or that there are no perfect words to be found for either your w or your kids?

Going back to your question, I did apologise at one stage early on....even if i wasn't quite sure what I was apologising for lol. My then h simply ignored it. And then much later, at a similar stage to where you are now perhaps, I sent a thank you goodbye letter with no expectation of a response. Which is just as well bc I never got one  I have no idea if he even read it. But I did it for me bc it felt wrong to end 20 years without thanks or a goodbye. My xh never expressed either, but it was a kind of closure action for me so it served a different purpose and I feel ok about doing it. But I needed to have got to a place where I was much more detached than I had been so i could be really honest with myself about why I was doing it.

[AlvinTheMaker]

I agree. The why part matters most..I'm doing it for number of reasons, none relating to pursuing. Personal integrity possible matches best

It is good to acknowledge ones errors and apologize for the "misbehaviour"  from those affected (whether or not they were hurt by it was and is always their choice). That is essential for every human being. Process of apology leaves you with clear conscience, and does make you better equipped to do own healing. You know you made a mistake, and you made the effort to amend it. It is up to them to accept or reject it. No response or forgiveness is required back...

Alvin.

[Treasur]

All I can note fwiw, Alvin, is that what you say now sounds different from when you said  "This is me paving the way, setting an example she may or may not follow when done with her demons." The former is more about who you choose to be regardless; the latter is about hoping to engender a reaction in someone else. Perhaps paving A way for yourself is different from paving THE way you think someone else should follow? I think we have all wrestled with that at times. You will of course do as you see fit, and respond to answers to your question as you choose....only you know what is really true in your heart and intention.

[AlvinTheMaker]

That is one of the reasons I wanted to hear experiences of others. To get various comparison points what these things mean to each of us, and maybe adopt something into my existing mix (that is what self growth is largely about).

And yes, the perspective of closure (and the effect it has on any kind of new beginnings) is important too.... In a way this is very a unique point in time of being LBS, possibility to make sure there's very little unfinished business that would be soil for negative triggers to grow.

Alvin.

[barbiedoll]

Perhaps the most important question is why you want to do that?

.

I also wonder why . It is a form of pursuing behavior Alvin and it does feel like a tactic of manipulation in my opinion. If it is for yourself , then that is an internal job and need not be spoken out loud. If it is to aid in healing and personal accountability etc etc, then your spouse has nothing to do with this process.  Too many words spoken out loud for a process you feel is important to you. I do believe you anticipate a response from your spouse to apologies etc...lets be real, who won't?. I think silence is hard for you Alvin not meant as a criticism , just an observation from another pursuer. Not everything has to be said out loud for it to having meaning.  When I was finally able to "drop the rope", it was an internal decision and change that was never shared with my spouse. Just my opinion. Silence can be golden .

[Thunder]

Hi Alvin,

I just want to be clear I understand.  Is your question: those of us LBS's who moved out did we apologize for wrong doing in the marriage, or did we not?  Am I correct?

If it is, I moved out because his divorce was almost final and I felt I needed to now be on my own.

Did I apologize to him for anything?  No
I never felt I did anything to apologize for.  I did not want this divorce, he did. 
Was I a perfect wife, oh heck no.  He was not a perfect husband either.
I made a lot of mistakes in our marriage over the years, but I already apologized for them at the time.
He made mistakes too.  That was all in the past. 

The reasons he gave for wanting to end the marriage really had nothing to do with me, and I expect that could be the case with you also.

Do you honestly feel what you did, or how you acted, gave her good reason to want out?
Is what you did really serious enough for her to blow up your marriage and family over, after 20 years?

If you do then by all means apologize.  It will make you feel better.
Just don't think it will matter to her, because it won't. They don't care. So do it for yourself.

If she is just in a crisis and not thinking straight, then what are you apologizing for?
I'm just asking because most of these MLCer will find any reason to excuse what they are doing.  They even make them up if they need to.

So my question is, did you cause this to happen or is she just in a midlife crisis?

[Seahorse]

Alvin - Also FWIW with me...

We were in marriage counseling (during my H's affair, early on).  He was denying the affair but told our MC the things that he felt were wrong with me, and decided to take responsibility for his feelings, and those that I thought could have been an issue in the breakdown of our marriage.  So, I apologized for my part.  He did not - wouldn't even admit the affair.  That was almost 3 years ago.

Circle around to about 4 months ago - in a text - H said "you never apologized for your part in the breakdown of our marriage".  I told him that I had already done that, recalled the setting (I remember it vividly).  I did not apologize again.

So -- my point is -- if she's in replay it doesn't matter.  Even if you do it for you - it won't stick and won't matter.  If you feel you need to, I don't see anything wrong with it, but not sure what it'll accomplish because even though it's for you - she'll probably still bring it up again in the future?

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

Sea

[AlvinTheMaker]

Just an observation....and this is adopted from what CH has shared few times.

If you knew you had misbehaved accidentally with stranger on street (say spilled sugary soda on their dress years back, and not addressed it properly back then),  you surely would make proper apology if you on later date came across the same person, acknowledging and owning your past mistake?  Why would the person you have lived for decades be worth less?

The fact they don't accept it verbally is their issue.
The fact they may omit and forget it is their issue.
All we have is our side of the street, and keeping it clean from dirt.
Alvin.

[marvin4242]

Something about the question ringed hollow and I had to think about it a bit. Because the truth is if ones spouse is truly in MLC and not simply leaving the marriage for personal reasons or because of the behaviour of the spouse the apology, like everything else we do, makes no difference. So if it is for personal reasons sure, why not. If it is to again manipulate or control, well then its more denial of reality and trying to pretend there is control when there is none.

Then it struck me what the issue was. I think it is a made up story that somehow if we do xy or z on the way out the door, if we “have our say,” if we do some combination of magic incantations there will be “closure” and we will move on. And I realized it is more denial of reality. It is more attempt to pretend we have control and that we are ok. Because like almost all human affair there is no simple, clean, delineated moment, there is no simple answer. There will be no “closure” to a 20 year or any long term relationship no matter what we do. Divorce or not, apology or not, selling the house or not. And this is true even when there are no kids. When there are kids in common well what does closure look like exactly? This will be with us for a very long time.

We grow and heal when we realize the true nature of ourselves, of our spouses, of our friends. About how we are all imperfect, that there are better and worse ways to exist, but there is no exact answer. That behaviour to others MATTER when they are guided by empathy and gentle care of the other, and words only matter when they are exactly aligned with that. And that our kindness, care and growth is shaped by thousands of small acts and steps and rarely by one specific action or ritual.

I owned my part internally like others have said as I re-examined our 23 years together. I was not perfect, but I was not bad. Nothing that happened came from anything I did. I did not badger, control, direct, demean, list faults nor leave. I had bad moments like we all have had, I said things I wish had never been said in the moment, out of my own pain and lack of self awareness. But they were transitory and my actions were always guided by love and empathy for my wife. So I could apologize for tiny things, but I am proud of our life together and how we treated each other vast majority of the time.

And finally I fear an apology is sometimes nothing more than a whitewash. It simply puts a pin and says “see, I said I am sorry so its all ok now. I may have caused you great anguish and damage but hey I just said sorry, so no problem.” Which I guess circles back to another topic of how hearing our MLCers say they are “sorry” may really not be worth that much after all. Its the damage done that counts.

[xyzcf]

The reasons he gave for wanting to end the marriage really had nothing to do with me,

Thank you Thunder.

I totally believe that MLC is NOT a marriage issue, so what am I to apologize for?

We were married 32 years. The one time he responded to my question why..he said I was "too intense and I talked too much". That was my divorceable offence.

I'm now taking full accountability of even the slightest of mistakes never voiced aloud.

A healthy relationship would be one that any "mistakes" made would have been explored and apologies given at the time...to look back over 20 years and identify each wrong word or action doesn't make any sense to me...relationships need work, we did it for 32 years, we resolved issues all the time throughout those years.....until MLC hit and then there was no room for my input....none at all.

[AlvinTheMaker]

Whoa.... Let's roll back the talk quite a bit as I see talk about forgiveness and other stuff creeping in....

Making an apology (or not making) is about one person, in this case LBS.

Accepting or rejecting that apology is the act of another person, in this case MLC. And it results into forgiveness or unforgiveness. But that is not in hands of LBS, so why even  discuss it (apart of maybe acknowledging that withholding forgiveness is same as drinking poison and hoping other person to die).

If we allow this talk to protrude to cover both sides making both actions, then this talk has no limits, and turns into another endless talk.

But let's focus on just what the LBS can control. Our apology.   Did you apologize your past mistakes (as I'm sure the process has made you aware of perspectives and approaches you never thought). Yes/no, and why?

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

I have started to post and then deleted again. I really thought things through. I don't think you need to apologize at all. The number of mistakes and issues you have done over the course of a 20 year marriage is huge. Are you going to try and identify each one and apologize for each omission? Your own confession with your wife as a priest?

In my opinion, and this is one hundred percent Ready intuition, no research, no evidence at all, from the MLCer's point of view, your apology would only serve to justify her actions and mindset.

My advice is that now is not the time to apologize. Either thank her for all the good times and your children or nothing at all. Focus on you and the children. The less you talk to her now, the better for both of you.

Be good to yourself,

((((Ready))))

[AlvinTheMaker]

Ready - Maybe the bygones should remain bygones, but at least my life has proven time and again that unfinished business easily comes back to bite your ass  at later life (having a good reminder of that with tooth that should have been removed some 35 yes back). None of the mistakes that happen in normal marriage make a life sentence - unless we allow them to become as such in our heads (that is a trap I think some have fallen).

Assuming this goes the same way as it has gone with few testballs I have thrown so far,  W not responding to apology in any way (silent way to reject apology, or maybe fear of responding in effort not to engage, or something else), what is the worst that can happen?

If I withhold my apology, then I'd be drinking the poison for acting in way that is ungenuine to me. That does not sound smart to me. If I go ahead with my apology, then I'm cleaning my side of street and can move on with life. End of story.

If I would begin thinking W's side (which is not my business) she does not even need my apology to forgive. Or to come up with new reasons where I failed. But the act of  receiving apology may change unforgiveness (drinking poison and hoping other to die) into forgiveness over time ( it could be positive if she allows it, but it is her task). And she definitely does not need to respond to apology (though it would be good manners).


And true, W's not my priest... But she is the one I have offended randomly with my "misbehaviour". She has right to walk off, say stop or set up whatever boundary she wishes in order for not to receive my apologies (and then my role would be to honor that boundary). But is is not my right or task to set up such boundary for her behalf.

Maybe this makes sense, maybe not....

Alvin

[Ready2Transform]

If you've got it in your mind you're going to do this, then you're going to. I am one of the I'm sure many who apologized pre- and post- divorce to my spouse for any and all transgressions I could think of. Some in a bargaining panic, some not. 9 years out from BD, I absolutely should have just kept that to myself or taken it into the healing process as I've done everything else. Even *he* apologized for some things (sorry, not remorse - important). My apologies helped confirm to him that he was doing the right thing by leaving me, and though he was "sorry he hurt me" - he regretted nothing. Still does not, even though his life is wack. Even if it's "for you" - I can guarantee there will likely be some shock and disappointment at how they receive these apologies. It doesn't make you look like a good guy - it allows you to be the fall guy. But...do what you have to. There's learning in all of it.

[Ggg4life]

Alvin-

I'm in agreement now is not the time she wants to talk.  For me, before ex left... After giving him the chance (like we do) to stay and work on it (not understanding the beast we were dealing with), I had to accept he was going freely.  He's not a prisoner. I told him I forgive him for feeling he needed to destroy the family in order to be set free.  I said, I'm sorry you felt you couldn't talk to me or desired to work on this marriage. I'm sorry you didn't value us enough to stop.  I'm sorry if I failed you in this marriage, however I am not saying I accept blame for your affair, cruelties, etc.  Those were done without regard for our marriage.  It was your free will to abuse or love us.  I wish you would have made better choices, but you are forgiven. Not approving or condoning ANY of this.  You'll have your own crosses to bear.  I wish you well.

Forgiveness was for me to release the bitterness, etc.  Yes, on my journey it would surface again in my emotions.  Then I would be reminded did I truly want to be free and forgive? Or was I controlling outcomes? It's a choice and a process.   I remembered in our marriage all the times he lovingly forgave me.  Who was I not to set him free that way.  As I knew if I wanted forgiveness from God, it would start with me taking ownership.  I believe no marriage is perfect.  It can be a culmination of bad choices that they use as an excuse.  There is no excuse for any of it.  The fact is the mistakes still happened. The manner in which they dealt with them are not on us.

IMHO, If my teen daughter did something horrible by poor choices to someone including me, I would still love her and forgive her, even if I don't approve of what she's done. At that point, it's her mess to clean up. Her accountability to deal with. It's not my problem to get stuck in her mess. Only she can work it out.  My boundaries in love are set, but I will not enable or approve of bad or destructive behavior.  Then it's on me. 

Not sure if this is what you're asking, but it's my truth.. Sometimes,life is the best teacher no matter how old we are. 

[forthetrees]

Since then h was (and still is) conflict avoidant, he only brought up his list of slights on the way out the door. I thought them over and apologized for the ones that I thought were valid. When I say avoidant I mean things that happened decades ago that only came to light upon BD and the months after. So yes, I did apologize b/c I did not know until that point that those things had caused him harm. Of course had I known when they happened, I would have apologized then. No, he did not apologize for anything. I was surprised in the moment of the conversation when I said my apologize and then got dead air. He has never since apologized either. I like to live without regret and I try not to cause others harm so an apology on my part allows me to be in congruence with my values.

To thy own self be true.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

but at least my life has proven time and again that unfinished business easily comes back to bite your ass  at later life (having a good reminder of that with tooth that should have been removed some 35 yes back).

The hardest point I had to accept, to acknowledge was that there would always be unfinished business between myself and my ex no matter what. I sought and wanted permanent closure. The end of the road, the end of the chapter, to erase the dangling modifier and make the sentence complete. Ten years down the road, still unfinished business, a project that will never end.

I am a man of action. Decisive and to the point. You spoke of control, and you are right, we only control ourselves. The hardest thing is to control ourselves to do nothing.

In the end, Alvin- it is your choice. if you want to apologize to your STBX, go for it. The question you posed to the forum was if I apologized for my mistakes in the marriage and my response was no, I did not. Not at the time of the divorce. Years later, we both acknowledged and apologized to each other and it really meant something- at least for me. However, it did not bring complete closure- it just made things a lot easier.

((((Ready)))))

[3longyrs]

Did you apologize your past mistakes (as I'm sure the process has made you aware of perspectives and approaches you never thought). Yes/no, and why?

I did Alvin...I tried to apologize to my w in the beginning after the last bd before she moved out,but as we now know,she wanted no part of it...I went through my own transition before my w's crisis,did and said a lot of things that I needed to atone for ...I said things to friends,the kids,others in the family and after a while of learning through this process I saw that it was needed for ME...

Only after my wife made the turn toward home did I try again...and it was excepted as hers to me was...They will not be receptive in the beginning of the crisis because no matter what you say gets twisted to fuel that rebellion...Only after they begin to look inside will they ever hear a true apology...thats my opinion ...

[Thunder]

Alvin, you asked..."Did you apologize your past mistakes (as I'm sure the process has made you aware of perspectives and approaches you never thought). Yes/no, and why??

My answer was:

Did I apologize to him for anything?  No
I never felt I did anything to apologize for.  I did not want this divorce, he did.
Was I a perfect wife, oh heck no.  He was not a perfect husband either.
I made a lot of mistakes in our marriage over the years, but I already apologized for them at the time.
He made mistakes too.  That was all in the past.

But you know everyone is different.  Alvin if you feel the need to apologize to her then you should.
At this point it is entirely up to you how you want to end things. 

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

Did I apologize to him for anything?  No
I never felt I did anything to apologize for.

This is coming from someone who lives in Minnesota. They spend over half their lives apologizing to others about their weather. LOL

Ready

[Thunder]

Oh you're a real riot Alice!   

[AlvinTheMaker]

. Ten years down the road, still unfinished business, a project that will never end.

Thanks Ready,

This is good to know, and I'll make a mental note myself...OTOH if a relationship lasts 20 years, it sounds only logical for the fallout to last at least the same.

Alvin.

[AlvinTheMaker]

They will not be receptive in the beginning of the crisis because no matter what you say gets twisted to fuel that rebellion...Only after they begin to look inside will they ever hear a true apology...thats my opinion ...

It may be true, but how MLCr sees it something not in my control. The only part I control is making (or not making) the apology, and how it makes me feel.

It is kind of interesting to notice there are people doing this in totally different styles, and all are doing ok.... So I would assume this comes largely down to personal integrity, being true to what you are. And it is different strokes for all of us.

Was I a perfect wife, oh heck no.  He was not a perfect husband either.
I made a lot of mistakes in our marriage over the years, but I already apologized for them at the time.
He made mistakes too.  That was all in the past.

Amen... To reality of married life.

Alvin.

[Finding Joy]

Alvin, I think intention matters.  So for me, I had to know that I did everything in my power to save the marriage.  Early on I apologized for some things I had done that he had monstered about.  I do not regret it because I know that I have left no stone unturned.

That said, I wouldn’t expect anything from it.  In that same manner there are many times I spoke up when I felt I needed to say how I felt.  This was for me and my healing, but certainly did not help our relationship.  It could help her justify, but if you need to do it for closure, do it.

[OffRoad]

Whenever I made a mistake I was aware of during our marriage, I apologized. Therefore no reason to apologize for those things again.

None, not one single thing, of what my mlcer accused me of was anything I had done. They were all things HE had done. I felt no need to apologize for those things either. And I have no need to take on his projected issues as any problem of mine.

Can I think of things I might have done wrong in his eyes? Yes, but if he never mentioned them, we're they actually "wrong" or do I just imagine they might have been?  I see no need to apologize for something that may or may not have been an offense. And no one can tell me that.

I can only truly apologize if I know what it was I did to hurt someone else and agree with the assessment. My being quiet my be hurtful to one person and a relief to someone else. An apology for being quiet might not be appropriate. 

If a person knows they were rude, or spiteful, or absent in their marriage, they can apologize if it makes them feel better to acknowledge their shortcomings, expecting nothing in return. Take that knowledge of what you want to do differently and do better moving forward. If the apology helps positive change, why not?

[Zion]

Anything I apologized for... 1) Even if true, was an attempt to fix and turn him back 2) The items I mentioned, he later used in mediation to monster at me. Given ammunition... the MLCer will use it against you to feel better about what they are doing.

[Couragedearheart]

Alvin,

For me it took several months after BD for me
To really process through all the things H had said and done and examine my own behavior in the marriage. Most of the reasons H stated he wanted a divorce for were made up crap that was just an excuse.  But in my self examination I did discover something’s I genuinely needed to apologize for....which I did....and changed those behaviors.

I honestly think the apology matters very little compared to action.  The words ended up being sort of meaningless.....the actions showed more.

You can apologize if you want too.  You don’t have too. It is a choice. I would say this time is about you....do whatever brings you closure. Don’t write down your apology as it can be used against you in the divorce and talk to a lawyer first.

I hope whatever choice you make brings you some peace.

Courage

[Finding Joy]

Yes, like Courage I examined my heart and had legitimate things to apologize for.  So for me, I needed to apologize to make sure I had done my part.  Of course it meant nothing to him during monster.  It gave me peace though.