[Standing Strong]

Hi ladies 

I had a series of questions which can only be answered by your unique perspective, experiences and biology 
A few of these may be really difficult to answer, or maybe to hear, and the intention is not to hurt, poke or anything of the sort.... but to understand what it is like to be a woman and what you go thru in the course of life. I will give examples of my perceptions/thinking (which could be right, wrong or somewhere in-between).

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and honesty..... 

Story which set off this series of questions:
This morning I had spin class. There was a substitute instructor this time. I'd never seen her before. She was obviously happy to be there, as most instructors like to project. As she gets on her bike and starts talking to us, she wishes us a good Sunday and then tells us that she won't be having a good Sunday as she will be remodeling her Kitchen with her Husband.  Over the course of the class and especially at the end, she shares that working with him is something she doesn't like, that she wished he would just do what she tells him to do, that she is always right and he is always wrong, and that he just needs to take instruction and not think on his own. 
I couldn't help but think "how bad would he feel if he was here to hear all that?". The thing is: people say what they really feel when they think there aren't consequences to them expressing themselves. Here was a woman, in her late 40's or early 50's, NOT in good shape, belittling her husband who was taking his Sunday to remodel HER kitchen. The poor guy..... I'd like to imagine that he viewed the work as an act of love (that's how I would be approaching it - but I admit that's me projecting something beautiful - I love working with W, but she sure doesn't seem to like it either).

The reason I bring this up for women to answer is this: It is generally thought by many men (not all) that at some point in a woman's life, she can (not always) care a lot less about her H as she turns inward, especially during/following empty nesting, 40+, menopause (?) or something else that I've missed (or don't know about).

Examples:
Case in point, I had thought a bit about this, and remember how my mom acted when she got to that age and how she has been since (up to now). I do remember her being MUCH more family and H oriented in her 20's, 30's and the 1st part of 40's. After that, she was MUCH more disengaged and didn't chase dad around anymore (she still doesn't). Once she had empty nested, seemingly everything changed drastically. Very noticeable to me is how much she cared about what he thought before, and afterward didn't care much about that at all. I remember thinking it was very cold, but now I wonder if this is a normal occurrence.
Example 2:
My cousin is a little older than me, 6 months or so. She was insanely beautiful when she was young. All my friends wanted to go out with her 
This last year she told me marriage was no longer an option for her, and she had given up. This puzzled the heck out of me, there were tons of guys she dated that wanted to marry her, and her answer was no. Fast forward to now, I don't think she has the offers anymore, but beyond that, I don't think she sees the utility in having a man. She does everything herself, and seems to like only relying on herself. She values her independence, and doesn't seem to want to sacrifice that at any price. She doesn't seem to put any importance on having a relationship at this point (age 45).
Example 3:
Building on Example 3.... The professional women I work with (around 200 of them)...... there's every age category: 20's 30's 40's 50's and up. I don't mingle much with the 20's, but the 30's on up I know very well. The marriage rate is about 25% married, 75% single. Of the mid 40's group, I've had several that I'm close to say they are done with dating, don't need a man, and have no designs on getting married (several of them just divorced their H's in the last 2-3 years)..... and then you get closer to the 60's bracket and those gals are horn-dogs..... I can't tell you how many have propositioned me, but I don't think they want relationships, they just want to boink.  So what I've observed (personally) the 30's are looking for relationships/marriage (had some hit on me), the 40's are totally out of it (none of them hitting on me, with the exception of the MLC'ers which I won't include in the count), the 50's and above (seemingly always hitting on me, VERY direct about physicality... enough to make me blush). So interesting. If it was one or two, then I'd call it an outlier but that's not what's happening.   

So my question is: Does there come a point in your life, where a man simply doesn't have the shine it used to have? And if this has happened to you, can you describe it? Or maybe it's not a complete loss of value, but a change in value? If that's the case, can you describe what it's like for you?
In all these cases (if it happens to be true), what do you think for the men who find themselves in this situation? Empathy? What do you think (As women) what they should do, or maybe can do to improve their situation? Can anything be done in their situation? Most men I know who find themselves there, just shut down (Almost universally, and I know A LOT personally). I can't say their reaction is good, bad or whatever..... but it is very male to react in this way. I do know they are universally shocked and had believed what had been in the 20's and 30's would continue on for the rest of life (the ones which married in their 20's of course, it's harder to keep track of the ones which married in their mid 30's and had been married for much less time).

I think back to that spin instructor this morning, and her husband who probably has no clue what she's really thinking/feeling. If he knew (maybe he does), then what should he do? Effort isn't going to do anything, he's going to be expending effort to do something for her without a real payoff. I know I have been in that place: doing big work in the hopes of melting a heart (like what would have happened in our 20's) but it doesn't work like that anymore. Are women conscious of this? If you do notice it, what do you DO with it? Bury it? Ignore it? Feel guilt and then put it away? Make an effort to change feelings? Or maybe you haven't experienced this at all?

Hope it's as fun to answer as it is to ask. 
More questions after seeing how this one goes.
Com'on ladies, let's probe the deep understanding of the female mind. HA!!
Time to make a man understand!! LOL!!

-SS

[KellBell]

hmmm. I think some of that may have to do with experiences. The women in their 40s probably got married in their early 20s and are now happy with a little independence post divorce. Jaded and taking time to finish raising kids and deal with life. Not looking for another man to take care of. And those who haven't married are independent and don't feel a man will make or break their happiness and quality of life.

My daughters are in their mid 20s and they don't want to get married until they are in their 30s. They want to establish themselves and their identities before getting married- which is a very practical and wise stance. They also want to have fun and travel prior to kids.

My mom is in her early 60s- and it's crazy the way I hear her and her friends talk about men or refer to relationships with them. They seem to think they are in their prime. Confident, independent and they don't feel they need a man permanently for anything. Companionship for events and sex is really all they have need of them for.

I can say- I am in my early 40s. Recently divorced. Not looking for anything right now. I'm going to enjoy this time raising my kids and being on my own. But I am open to dating and finding love again at some point. Would love to be married and have someone to retire with and spend time with. My bestfriend is just one year older than me and she is dating a 28 year old...so who knows. She doesn't see it being long term...just passing the time with him, but they have been together for 3 years. She still talks about her plans when she retires and he's not part of that vision. So here is where past experiences may come into play. Not sure. I don't think men lose their shine...I think women in their 40s are evaluating just how much they are wanting to invest in another man at this point. Probably have a checklist and if a guy comes along that ticks enough boxes then he may be worth the time, but until then. Fine being alone. I think women in their 30s are ready to get married and start families...serious dating. And women in their 20s...exploring who they are as individuals and having fun.

Not sure if any of that helps. Possibly a generational thing? And definitely generalizations on my part...maybe I'm an outlier...who knows. Interesting to be sure. I do see more and more 50-60 year old women coming into their own. It's a freeing thing for that generation of women to be able to call the shots, be independent and make their own decisions. Not needing a man and being able to be in control.

[MadLuv]

Hmmmm, well I am going to be 60 in less than 6 months. I am told I look to be in my 40’s. I cooked every night for my xh, packed his clothes for trips, pulled his clothes every morning for work, laundry, mowed. I pretty much did it all with all kids grown.  I was raised by a father that believed if it could be done it could be done by you. So, remodeling or hime improvements I was more knowledgeable. So, I am sure he felt a little less manly.

Cars, he handled. Before he started working massive hours and traveling we shared more of the home duties of laundry, dishes, mowing etc. So, our change came with his higher pressure job. I would prefer to be in my marriage. I doubt I will remarry, but I also am not going to give myself up all over the place. I have to feel connected to someone.

[MomOfSteel]

I’m not quite 40. I guess I would have remained happily married but now will not jump back into things anytime soon.  I think that women in their 40s are just starting to reclaim themselves to some extent.  I was looking forward to all my kids finally being in school, H established in his career and finally feeling like I had the means and time to start focusing on myself.  Well, joke was on me apparently.  I will say that I will likely be very gun shy about future relationships.  It’s not that I don’t want companionship or a partner, but I would rather be alone than risk going through this garbage again.  I also know I’m not mentally healthy enough to trust in having a healthy relationship.  It’s smarter to not worry about that and focus on the kids and figuring out a new plan for my life.  Im guessing that the others in my age range are just not willing to trust and be burned so readily right now. 

[KellBell]

I realized I may have missed what you were asking for on here. If you are asking about how a woman sees the value of a man at different ages...then I would say this.

20s- looking for someone to date, have fun with, travel etc. Nothing usually too serious. Looking for a friend, good company, supporting them emotionally in their quest to find themselves, career etc.

30s- looking for someone who will be a good father and husband. Someone who is reliable and steadfast. Same goals and visions for the future.

40s- not really looking for someone. Realizing it's ok to be on their own. If something great comes along that checks alot of boxes then great! Otherwise, focused on themselves, family/kids if they have them, their careers and friends.

50s and 60s- Really just a progression of 40s. Don't need a man full time. But it's nice to have one around once and while. Nice to have someone to go out with, dinner, events, double dates etc. Nice to have someone to help when you need it and talk with.

I agree with Madluv...we are in different age groups but both approached our marriages in the same way. We were equals with our spouses in the beginning. And as time passed and the family grew our roles changes. Our spouses worked more (providing more for the family) and we took over raising kids, keeping house, becoming less dependent on our husbands- for alot of reasons. Alot of times it was just easier and quicker for us to do what ever needed to be done instead of waiting for husband to get around to it. I wanted my husband to help around the house, fix things and be engaged. But it would either tick him off, never get done or cost us money as he would just hire it out. I know I put more energy into the house and kids as way to alleviate pressure off my husband. He was working and providing for us- so I thought by doing all the other stuff I was showing appreciation and contributing my half to the relationship. Making it easier for him, less for him and giving him time to relax when he was at home. And it worked for us. He would always compliment me and thank me for getting things done and how great things were. I honestly don't feel I pushed him out or made him feel unwanted or unneeded. He quit contributing. He quit participating. He quit engaging. And that was directly related to MLC. Before that- it was a dance we grew into and it worked for us.

I think most women looking for a man just want one that this open and willing to compromise. Relationships are not 50/50. It ebbs and flows. And at times and in certain aspects of the relationship it's 20/80 or 60/40. The ratio isn't what's important- it's about being on the same page. Knowing what each other wants and expects from the other- which then really just comes down to communications. So in short- no. Men don't lost their shine. A good man always shines. It's really about the state of mind the female is in.

[Standing Strong]

This is fantastic, thank you ladies 

So far, from the responses: There IS a change in the 40's. This is very interesting. Unclear is why? And how drastic is this shift? One theme that seems to span the responses is "reclaiming" life. What does this mean? Or perhaps, what is it like? And why at that time? Is it a re-evaluation of life? Restlessness? Freedom? Re-prioritization? I realize there is probably a big difference between being married or divorced during this time, but maybe it's not as different as it appears (maybe).

This also brings up the question of why? Historically, many women married and had babies in the 20's, leaving the 40's for empty nester time. I'm curious with the younger generations (and many of my generation  ) marrying and having children in the 30's, late 30's and even early 40's.... I wonder what effect (if any) that would have on this "40's reflection(?) change". Do babies trump shifting perception/desire? That's a curious question.

In a quick and maybe not accurate summery (so far) in two sentences:
20's - 30's = Men needed
40's onward = Men optional
What do you think? 

Keep going ladies, your thoughts and views are so very welcome, interesting and insightful     No judgements, just probing the female experience. I as a man find it utterly fascinating....

-SS

[MadLuv]

In a quick and maybe not accurate summery (so far) in two sentences:
20's - 30's = Men needed
40's onward = Men optional
What do you think? 

I think this is dependent on the woman. Some are not as self sufficient, but then mature and come into their own. Some like myself are raised to depend on no one. I think a lot is on your up bringing IMHO

[beyondblessed]

I definitely think there is a major shift in the way we think of our roles and the role of any man we allow to share our space...especially after ending up in a place such as this.  If we truly embrace the lessons of our life experiences,  we should manage to come out stronger, wiser and ultimately more independent.      After you've dedicated a better part of your life putting others needs and wants first, while neglecting your own, it seems a natural progression to me.

[Standing Strong]

Oh yes BB, I totally get that.
I know a lot of women who after getting D (Especially in 40's) and they openly say "I'm not doing that again". 
I'd imagine getting burned is one thing, but getting burned and arriving in a place where it's not as important to be attached has to be a double whammy.

I was talking to one of my professional female friends the other day. She has a small child, which she bore in her very late 30's. She was D'ed in the last couple years and is in her mid/late 40's now.... Doing the single mom thing. I asked her what life is like now..... she said it involves taking care of the kid, visiting/traveling, and drinking wine. She seems (on the surface) pretty happy, or at least content. She has zero desire to date or be involved with anyone. The odd thing is when she commented on her M, and said something to the effect of "I got my kid, that's what I wanted". Like that was the purpose, or objective of the M. I had to scratch my head...... I've heard this before..... from my cousin, and a few other female friends. This I don't understand. For me: if I had kids (I don't), they would be a side effect of a happy union with W, essentially an "add-on"..... not a primary objective. This seems to be reversed in many people I know (exclusively female), like the spouse is the add-on, and the kids are the primary. Is this a natural way of thinking? Or is it something people tell themselves once an R/M goes south? What is this? In men I know who are D'ed with kids...... they love their kids (of course) but in each conversation the men all said they wished things had been different with the wife. Not one of the women expressed any longing, regret or real compassion for the guy. What is that? Guys want a woman to love them..... it didn't seem like in conversations I had there was any love on the woman's side for the men afterward (but they all universally were very interested in the men contributing to the children's wellbeing and future - which does make sense and is understandable). It also seemed like the women wielded a lot of power to make the lives of the men more difficult as in each situation the women were the primary custodians of the kids and the men had to chase to see their kids. This position of control seemed to make them happy in a way. What is that? I wondered in my mind if this was a method of punishment, which could be extracted over many years (and a method of attention, for that matter). What do you think?

Obviously this isn't the case for every situation or person, just something I have observed in several situations. Is there a nature to this? And if so..... why?

-SS

[Standing Strong]

I should also explore the flip side of the coin too..... something else I've seen and don't understand either:

So I was talking about the observations of the 40+ and what I've seen there, but I also have seen the complete opposite with the late 30's female crowd (and in my family too)...... where there are a rash of marriages, or attempted marriages. Now that I think about it, yes..... I've noticed a big handful of these quicky marriages within the ages between 33 and 38..... and a run for the doors at 39 (as if in a panic). Women trolling almost.... and it makes me think about right before I was going to turn 40 and all of a sudden, gals I hadn't seen in 20 years were crawling out of the woodwork wanting to hook up, catchup, or whatever (they were all about to turn 40 as well). I didn't reach out to anyone, they all reached out to me. Now this is somewhat different I suppose as these people were mostly single (not all) and I'd imagine it's a totally difference ball of wax between a single never married woman and a several year (or longer) married woman.
Since all the ladies here were in the married for a while (or longer) category, I don't know if you'd understand this rush to marry or not, but it seems to be a thing. What are your thoughts about this? Do you think it's a normal something?

Time to flip the script and compare:
I have noticed in many men, they hit their 40's or later and they just hang it up if they aren't married already. Many of them don't want to marry anymore (not all, but a lot. Some just want to date, maybe live with someone, but marriage - no). I know is a real thing, and I think a lot of them are bitter for whatever reason. Mistrustful. Definitely a thing. For guys, the run for the doors (to get married) I think happens in their 20's. I know I was very motivated to marry young, and I did  I know several women in their late 30's who have married guys in their early to mid 20's and that seems to be more and more common.

What do you think? Ring any bells? See similar things? Any explanation for any of it?  I have some thoughts and assumptions, but I'm not alone in wondering about these things am I? HA!!

-SS