Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Synicca on August 12, 2011, 07:49:55 AM
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I have wanted to start this discussion for some time now....
The reason I wanted to start this is because there has been many talks about how to enteract with our MLCers
I for one, have remained "friends" with my H from the beginning.
Some of what H and I have talked about would be considered " a NO R talk" discussion. but, from my own
point of view, and as for my OWN sitch. I believe that my Marriage has long suffered from "losing" sight of
OUR friendship. I believe in order to truly have LOVE, it must begin with a true undying friendship.
We talk about how our H's or W's are/were our best friend, BUT were/are they really?? The foundation of
every M or R should start with being friends first.
In my own case, MY H has said many times during this crisis, that He see's now that WE ARE FRIENDS.
The one thing he has truly valued in ME, during this mess. He has seen that NO MATTER what path he chooses
to take, I will remain his friend most of all.
It was something that suffered before but now has a new found light to it. If anything, I want my H to be happy.
IF this means without me, then so be it. His happiness brings me comfort. as a friend this is what we all want
for eachother. regardless of what that person decides to do for their own future.
SO anyway, I would like to hear from others, on whether YOU could be friends with YOUR MLCer right now
as your very own sitch plays out??
Could you support him or her in THEIR journey, even if it meant they never returned to your Marriage??
hugs
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Great Thread!
Last night in MC my H called me his best friend. I feel the same about him.
Since the BD, we have become closer as friends. I listen to his confusion when he talks about it. Although, I "try" not to spin my 2 cents in since he does not want my help. He knows I am there for him. We talk more about who we are or our vision of how to become a better person now than we did prior to BD. We talk about ourselves as individuals. During MC last night, I told H and the MC that no matter what, I want my H to be happy. This is true. With me or without me, for 23 years he has always been my friend and we all want our friends to be happy.
Some people believe that friends shouldn't hurt each other like the MLCer has done to us, but I do not agree. Friends do get hurt by other friends. Sometimes it gets resolved and sometimes it does not. There have been times in our lives where we have gone long periods of time without talking to some of our friends only to pick up where we left off.
I want my H to be happy and to find out who and what he is. If his happiness does not include me as a spouse in the future, then I may be hurt, but I will feel better knowing that he is happy. If he finds he is not happy without me in his life as a wife (my biggest hope), then at least our friendship will be able to continue through the rest of our relationship. The ball is in his court.
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Yup. We were friends before! He said at BD about being with ow "I'm with a REAL friend now." ??? ???
Now ever since BD he talks that "We work best as best friends." :o. "You are my only friend."
I find it easier to know that we can text and call each other and not be weird with each other. Nervous and on the shy side ,YES, but like with a real friend you can still say " You have a Booger dangling" :o or " I'm holding the fort while you have space bc that's what friends do." :o :o :o I think in order to have the ability to be the Lighthouse you need to be friends. Or the lighthouse needs a friendly smile. Warm glow. Duct tape. Truth darts. I get good hugs this way. ;D ;D He has been my best friend since 1995 and he always will be. Now matter what Monster Spew came out of his teenage mouth on 2-14-11. I read somewhere , I think "Clingy Boomerang" article they might express fear of losing you as fear of losing 'the friendship'....DGU yoo hoo...?? Good thread. I know some of us have Monster Central. I could not be friends with that! >:(
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You and some of the others on here puzzle me. You always make me feel like queen b#$%^ because I could never do what you do. On a saint scale, I am definitely a low outlier…
I could have been and would have wanted to be friends with my ex forever, even if he wanted out of our marriage—IF he had and wanted to be friends with ME and honor our contract to do right by our kids. When he started to go into the tunnel, but I didn't know why or anything about MLC, I offered him the option of divorce because I knew he wasn't happy and I sincerely want him to be happy.
But, when he said he wanted to be together forever, then went and found her and decided that he needed to treat me like dirt and throw our whole marriage and family under the bus without exploring anything about himself first, I realized that while he SAYS he wants to be my friend, he is not capable of it. Friends often put the other person first and consider their needs, but he has not considered anyone’s needs but his own in some time. I don’t think he can be anyone’s friend right now, not even OW’s.
I could be his friend, if he could be mine. I have tried over the years to ditch a lot of those “stick-tite” friends that offer you nothing and suck you dry, why would I voluntarily add another one? While you have been a good friend to your H, over all the years, has he TRULY been yours, is he TRULY a good friend now? I think it’s possible, but I think in most cases where ex’s claim to be “friends” there are other unspoken and hidden reasons for it and they secretly either despise each other but need something the other is providing, usually money, sometimes sex, or they are living off crumbs of what they thought they had—like the ex-wife who foolishly still believes that because they maintain a “friendship” he really does still love her and one day will return while he actually allows the relationship because he knows he can get her to do things—like having a second wife—and that’s not a friendship, and it is not healthy for her.
There may come a day when the pain has gone and he and OW have been happily married for 10 years and I have a new partner, when the possibility exists that we could build a new friendship, but why bother, there are a billion other people in the world that have never thrown me under a bus, so why not try some of them first? Just my opinion, but I've been thinking about this a lot...
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LL,
Ponder this for a sec.....What if your best Girlfriend was going through MLC...and she was running herself
and everyone around her into the ground, would you walk away from her??? or would you be her
friend and help her through it. Even if it meant, SHe may step on you from time to time, until she got
THROUGH ths crisis?
This is a form of "detachment" unconditional love...is the very foundation of ANY R.
It is at the very center of "Let go and Let God"
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My ex H has stated throughout this entire ordeal that he wants to remain friends. (BD Oct. 09) In the earlier months he pushed me away and pushed hard at times. He did not break me........even though I respected his requests for space/time and left him alone. I've gone over and over this concept in my head trying to decide if I can actually be his friend regardless of how things turn out between us. It is hard for me to "think" I can remain his friend in the event that he has other women or another woman in his life. I believe if this happens I will become nothing more to him than an ex wife. Not sure.
At the moment and due to a certain incident that happened a few weeks ago, I am his friend. He knows I am the one who will be there for him. He has thanked me for my "grace and forgiveness" and has stated that it has helped him so much through all of this. I maintain my unconditional love for him and showing him through my acts of kindness. I think the fact that I have maintained a steady and continuous "friendly" attitude toward him throughout his crisis has truly helped. I honestly want him to be happy in the end. As none of us know what the future brings, all still remains to be seen.
I have a close friend who divorced her husband many years ago (10 or 15). She had absolutely nothing to do with him for a year afterwards.......wouldn't even talk to him. Now, they are platonic companions. They do all family things together: dinners, holidays, vacations, etc.
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Ponder this for a sec.....What if your best Girlfriend was going through MLC...and she was running herself
and everyone around her into the ground, would you walk away from her??? or would you be her
friend and help her through it. Even if it meant, SHe may step on you from time to time, until she got
THROUGH ths crisis?
This is a form of "detachment" unconditional love...is the very foundation of ANY R.
It is at the very center of "Let go and Let God"
S
I believe in friendship with our H but while they are MLC we need to tread lightly in order to not "smother" them and instead love from a distance. It is also important to keep a healthy distance for YOU as much as your MLCer.
In reading your comments above I get the impression you feel you can "help" the MLCer along the process yet it maybe your offer to continue to help may actually be hindering their progression as much as your own. Something I have painfully realized is that my H was my best friend because I wanted him to be and I was his. Yet, it was not enough. I no longer have control over anything except my own actions which is to remain nice and cordial but I also choose not to lose sight of myself in this journey. Yes, I've become more selfish through this as I never truly was.
I have great friends and have for many years yet there are not many whereas my H never has. That I believe says a lot. He needs to learn to become a good friend just as much as becoming a better person not for me but for himself. So if we continue to "help" are we really doing them any good or are we helping ourselves feel more "comfortable" with the reality of the sitch as it is today? That's something I try to ask myself every day. That's part of the mirror work we all need to do.
Letting him go and letting God doesn't mean you need to do anything except just that. Let them go. That too is unconditional love. I love my H very much but I've let him go. If he comes back great, if not I will be there in whatever way he chooses to have me but not until we're both ready.
Please don't take the focus off yourself while your focusing on your MLCer. I know you know first hand what they may be going through but that was your individual journey and your H is on his own. You are a powerful force within yourself. This will shine through when it needs to.
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I asked my H if there was a way we could be friends after he left (a month after BD) and he looked at me like I was crazy. I tried in the beginning but I was so distraught and his behaviour continued to be so erratic - like bringing her over to pick up the kids less than 2 months after BD. So, I went NC because I needed to protect myself. I am always civil and I try to be kind when we do have contact these days, but I am not his friend. I have also told him I will not be his friend while he is still with OW, and I let him know that this is not as an attempt to "control" him, but is a self-protection thing. I am sticking to that, it is a boundary. I told him I would always be there for him if he was in need, but I would not be his "pal". I do not know where this lands in the "right/wrong" approach, or what "kind" of person this means I am, but I do know that it feels right to me. I, personally, could not do anything else. If he wishes to initiate contact, I am friendly but I am not his friend. I maintain boundaries with him that I would not have with a true, close friend. There are things I will not discuss with him because it will unleash monster or it will make me upset. In any case, in my sitch, H is not really "allowed" to talk to me by OW anyway (he never ever contacts me during their "at home" time, I am scheduled into working hours.
I am sometimes sad about this because there was a very long time, prior to MLC, where we were best friends and I believe shared most things with each other and supported and helped each other out as best we could. But that did change as H started into his crisis which I think, with hindsight, he had been gradually heading into for around 2 years prior to BD.
I think that it differs for everyone. When you look at the people on here who have reconciled some remained friends with their MLCer during the process, others did not. I think we need to remember that what we do during the MLC may leave an impression on our WS that may help or hinder a potential reconciliation but I do not believe that it affects the outcome as much as we might want it to.
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I am always civil and I try to be kind when we do have contact these days, but I am not his friend. I have also told him I will not be his friend while he is still with OW, and I let him know that this is not as an attempt to "control" him, but is a self-protection thing. I am sticking to that, it is a boundary. I told him I would always be there for him if he was in need, but I would not be his "pal". I do not know where this lands in the "right/wrong" approach, or what "kind" of person this means I am, but I do know that it feels right to me. I, personally, could not do anything else. If he wishes to initiate contact, I am friendly but I am not his friend. I maintain boundaries with him that I would not have with a true, close friend. There are things I will not discuss with him because it will unleash monster or it will make me upset. In any case, in my sitch, H is not really "allowed" to talk to me by OW anyway (he never ever contacts me during their "at home" time, I am scheduled into working hours.
This is my same experience. Much like you S&D, I had the same discussion early on and have this boundary set for me.
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I agree with truth seeker.
I think the operative word is
MIRROR
Your MLC'er is in control during the crisis
they will have to control the contact too.
You can not pursue - that much I am sure of.
If they move away from you and never come back there is not too
much you can DO about that without pursuing.
If they are pursuing you then I would say let them depending on your healthy boundaries.
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Synicca
I have a close friend who divorced her husband many years ago (10 or 15). She had absolutely nothing to do with him for a year afterwards.......wouldn't even talk to him. Now, they are platonic companions. They do all family things together: dinners, holidays, vacations, etc.
I do not know your friend, so cannot possibly comment on their particular situation, but I can imagine situations where after betrayal and everything else, an LBS decides they don't actually WANT reconciliation, but do not mind having friendship. I would not make the assumption because of a situation that you know about that all LBS's continue to want a marriage relationship with the WS. Part of this process should include detachment which enables us to question our own needs in any future relationship. The type of friendship that many of us would have as a "friendship" with our MLCer during crisis would inevitably be very one-sided. Maybe, then, it is better to back away. Afterall if one was best friends with the MLCer BEFORE and the MLCer makes the journey, one day they will remember that you were that person for them for a long time. I personally don't feel the need to "prove" I was his friend to H. I know that I was. He is the one that has forgotten and now, in MLC, if I were to be his friend, he would use me and he would NOT truly appreciate it, he may even feel disdain towards me for being a pushover. Cos that is how he thinks right now.
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Mama Bear
One of RCR's articles addresses the friendship question as a stand alone subject. Here is a piece from the article that sums it up well and is why there can be debate on this topic.
"though your love has no conditions, your active friendship is conditional."
Here is the link to the article itself
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_contact-and-communication_cake-eating_friendship-balance.html
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My mlcer contends that he wants to be "friendly" to each other because of the children. He hasn't used the word friend. I think in his mind that the two words have entirely two different meanings. Friendly sounds considerably more detached.
He also says that he is not interested in reconciling. Perhaps the damage to him, to me and our marriage is too much and h thinks living with OW is a better option. Then again it's been 13 months since BD. That could be "only" 13 months or OMG, "13 months since this nightmare started.
I have been thinking about the word "respect" and "respectful" of late. I wondered if h knows that the children might want him to be happy but have lost some measure of respect for him. They can be respectful to him over the phone but deep down is there true respect for his actions? It's so sad.
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Actually S&D
I didnt make that comment stated in your last post..That was LoveMyMan
but, as far as " Stopping" this process. I have no control over that. As for Letting Go and letting God.
That is axactly as I put it. I do not pursue my H, I do not start convos...as a friend if he needed/needs
to talk, I am there. to listen. and if asked for advice from HIM. I will give my best.
This isnt about pursuing, or stopping the MLC process. It IS about being the light. The one that stands
against ALL evil.
I'm sorry, if some of you think, I have walked a very tight rope with my H. It is in fact. Allowed us
to find peace within our R. It has given us BOTH the chance to sit and talk about our Marriage.
Things that we havent discussed EVER.
so in hindsight...I have paved the way for a much better M with him IF he decides to return.
It is about unconditional love....no matter what my H does...outside of "disrespect" I will stand and help
IF needed. ( and I will choose, what I consider Disrespect) As for all of us, no one knows what each of us
can handle...someone may not beable to emotionally handle a convo about OW/OM. But I can.
some may think it is wrong. But that is only wrong for you. I do not judge, nor wish to push anything on
anyone here. It is what YOU are comfortable with. nothing more, nothing less.
Thats just my 02.
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Synnica, I think we think alike on this topic. I figure my Wooby Snookems Sabotage Sam needs a place to vent or a shoulder to cry on I'm there. But better be quick bc I'm moving forward. I really help him feel loved from a distance. Like it says about a hurt animal trying to lick its wounds. Stay back! Don't crowd! Pray...You don't want to get scratched or bitten. :o
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Nope nope nope...not being his friend right now. Can't ...and besides I am not "friends" with people
with such low moral standards and characterthat they cheat on their spouses and lie and are so incredibly selfish
that they do not consider the impact their actions have on others close to them. And honestly, we don't
want to really mirror their actions do we? If we "mirrored" their actions we would have another partner
and be irresponsible too right?
I don't believe that my "h" deserves to have my friendship right now.
There HAS TO BE some consequences for their actions...boundaries if you will.
I view being friends with your MLC as "cake-eating" . My h can have all of me as his wife or he can
have none of me.
I agree that maybe this attitude will change in the future when I have a new partner, but for right now
I cannot and will not be his friend. I will be respectful and kind, the way I would treat anyone.
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Synnica, I think we think alike on this topic. I figure my Wooby Snookems Sabotage Sam needs a place to vent or a shoulder to cry on I'm there. But better be quick bc I'm moving forward. I really help him feel loved from a distance. Like it says about a hurt animal trying to lick its wounds. Stay back! Don't crowd! Pray...You don't want to get scratched or bitten. :o
MB,
I get what you're saying but it also seems like you're doing all the heavy lifting while the MLCer OW/OM gets to play with the MLCer without any of the responsibility. Let the MLCer go to the OW/OM for them to deal with all the issues. You know you're the better option. No judgements here, just an observation made with love. :)
Drop the rope. Let them feel the reality they created for themselves. Let the OW/OM put the pressure and wrap the noose around their own necks. If you're there to always help them lick their wounds you're in essence being their "mother" while the OW/OM doesn't have to do a thing but play their part. Fantasy and all. Believe me I get it! I love your name because I too am very much a momma bear but only with my kids and no longer with my H.
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Here is a piece of advice I got from a guy who went through MLC
"If friendship is all she can handle at this point, use it. It keeps you in her life while all these other changes are happening and when the time comes, she will realize that you have stood by her through all of this"
I think it matches up with this piece from RCR's article.
"But if you are to Pave the Way, you need to show agapé and that includes being a true friend in need. When the opportunity for beneficial friendship arises, take advantage of it."
This is from the article also. I think this is good insight on when to think about backing off, which No Contact would accomplish.
"Let your MLCer know that you will resume No Contact if your MLCer returns to Monster, the alienator or cake-eats to avoid helping himself."
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And honestly, we don't want to really mirror their actions do we? If we "mirrored" their actions we would have another partner and be irresponsible too right?
Mirroring work is for you to also look at the mirror at yourself, in doing so you will see for yourself completely as well as your R. What you can or cannot tolerate is for YOU to determine for yourself. Make sense?
As for mirroring your MLCer's actions, I'm sure DGU can find the article to reference for you as it not to behave as they have behaved.
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Sorry Synicca, I misread the post about the friend. In any case, I do not personally think you are doing anything "wrong" or that noone should be "friends" with their MLCer if that is a helpful place to be for the LBS. That was sort of my point when I said that I felt we all need to respond to the individual nature of our situations. In my situation being a friend would never work, which is not to say that I am unkind or rude or dismissive either. I just do not seek him out and when he tries to engage on certain topics (usually with a "pity me, my life is so bad" angle) I just listen, validate briefly (sorry to hear that, sorry you feel that way) and then change the subject. My thinking is that he can remember that I DID spend years sorting out his life with him. If OW isn't doing it for him, then I am not going to step in and rescue him so that he can have his cake (have his bizarre sex R with OW) and eat it too (have me being the "mummy"/"helper" for his emotional problems). He needs to realise that OW is not meeting his needs and that could get blurred if I step in and fulfill that part of a R for him. But that is MY R. I am sure that everything about it, other than elements of the MLC script are profoundly different than yours - of course they are! I can see that you are being a beacon in your sitch, in my own way I think that I am doing the same because H needs to learn where there are holes in his new R and if I patch those holes for him it may take longer. I was not intending to criticise anyone, just giving my perspective on this topic.
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S, I think this is a fascinating topic!
I already posted once but my computer went nuts so I hope the other post doesn't show up...forgive me if so.
I think it all really depends on the couple, and the inviduals.
For me, and I know this sounds lousy but...I don't give unconditional love to friends. That doesn't mean I don't try and be supportive, or that I don't love them or care deeply. I do for some, not so much for others. But, I've tried that route with friends and it's been too my own detriment with some. This is why I prefer not to think of my H as my friend during his MLC.
Instead, I view him as simply my husband. That is because it's my husband that I vowed to see through the good and the bad and to love forever. I thought long and hard about my vows before I took them. I really did.
For one thing, he hasn't acted as a friend, but, has acted in many (not all) as a husband throughout this (perhaps because he didn't leave).
A friend who goes through something will have my shoulder and my ear but if they then take it out on me and betray me, they would have to answer long and hard for that and would not have me standing for very long. That is actually something that has changed in me just in the last 15 or so years. Previously, I think some of my friends sniffed out my loyalty, my patience, my lack of sticking up for myself. And they abused it. Badly. They are no longer my friends.
Mr. MLC has done the same but he shares the body of the man I made the vows too. So, that is why he is extended more of me. Plus, I have never been "in love" with any of my friends and of course I have with my H.
So for me, in part due to the personality change that I have seen and found distasteful, and in part due to me feeling so alone, and due to all that I mentioned above, I'm not into our friendship at this point.
And we always called each other best friends before all this...just in case any one wonders.
I DO see how it would be different for some of you though...just commenting on my own situation.
:)
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BB kind of answered a question for me, but I don’t think you can compare a broken marriage relationship to a friendship. However, if my friend finds herself in an MLC, walks away from her family and takes up with a married man, the answer is NO, I will not support her in that. I will love her, and I will be there when she chooses to start making the RIGHT choices, but no, I will not condone that from any friend or family member, even my kids should they ever make the same decision. There are too many risks in supporting someone’s questionable behavior.
Furthermore, I think you are confusing love and support. And unconditional love to me really only exists for your kids, and maybe some siblings, and very possibly with some friends, but it’s the kind of love where you would give your life, no hesitation and no questions asked. While I will always love my ex-H, I can no longer love him unconditionally and I have never had another person besides he or my kids for whom I have had that kind of love. I would need to know that if I gave my life for him, he would look out for my kids, and he really can no longer make that promise. He can TRY to make that promise, but he and my kids, by insurance actuarial tables still have a long time on this planet and when he marries OW, he has to make a promise to put her and her children first. This is why, IMHO, the divorce rate for second marriages is higher than for first—most people can’t really do that, and time proves it. But, MLC or not when he stands up there and takes her as his wife, “forsaking all others, ” I have to trust that maybe this time, he will keep his promise.
The problem I see in all this is that there is an expectation that MLCers deserve special treatment. He wants me to treat him like he does know what he’s doing, like he is rational and whole, and yet the expectation here is that we need to treat them with kid gloves because they are dis-eased. Well, MLC or not, they still function and would be determined of sound mind in a court of law—I got no choice but to go with that. And that is not a foundation for a friendship—that is caretaking, mothering, coaching or a special needs attendant, it is not a friend, and in that regard, he is in no way capable of being a friend to me or our kids.
Plus there is a need to overlook the betrayal and broken promises. We had a contract and made promises to each other. That is not like when your friend misses lunch or you find out she told someone else your shoes are ugly, that’s kinda huge. I tried to explain the situation to H this way. He was a major leader in his workplace. If his boss came to him and told him that he really was not living up to the standards he had, and he found this other person to replace him—the most perfect, most wonderful person who would do great things. However, given that H, you are a good person and very loyal to the organization, you know more about all the projects have going on than anyone else, we are going to pay you 1/5 of your salary to stay on as an administrative assistant doing all the crappy you already do so that the new leader can focus on the fun and important things, and of course get all the recognition—would you stay? Why, what is really in it for you? And like everyone else, this is just me and my sitch, I could not be friends with him until he gives up the alienator, and I am pretty sure I mean it--but you know life changes ;-)!
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We were definitely best friends and after BD my ex kept saying he wanted to stay friends and I told him that I didn't have friends who treated people the way he did. He then asked if he could be a "flawed friend"! After coming back for a week (after six months with OW) and then going again he stated that we would always have a good relationship...
However, six months on, we have very little to do with each other now. At work I am friendly but only in the way that I am friendly to other work colleagues. He tells me nothing of what is going on in his life outside work and I tell him nothing of what I am doing. This is different from the first six months after BD when we had more interaction so I'm not sure if this is good or bad really. I certainly don't consider him a friend at the moment and I am quite sure that OW would not allow that to happen anyway!
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The whole issue of friendship with my MLCer is extremely difficult, we have been the best of friends for 36 years. At BD however H announced that he realised that we had only ever been friends (the passion he felt for OW was real love). In the following months we continued as friends but only on his terms.
Regarding friendships with other people my H has cut himself off from everyone including our very oldest and best friends and his family. They have tried and tried to reach him and he has ignored them. By his own admission the OW is the only person he talks to.
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I read through all the comments and thought about what this means to me.
My H initially mentioned "being friends" with me. I said I have friends. We were friends, lovers, partners, etc. At the moment, it doesn't feel appropriate for me to replace 1bit of our R - the friendship bit.
I feel it's a cop out. So he can ease guilt. I don't believe anything is truly unconditional, including my friendships. Good friends we can tell each other what we think - good or bad - without fearing losing them. We all set the limits - conditions. When they are clear then they might feel less conditional (ie, unconditional).
At the moment, my H struggles with truth so I think if we were friends it would be on condition that I didn't say anything to upset him. Those conditions feel very deceitful so I can't play that game.
What I am trying to do is set my boundaries with H. Good friends accept your boundaries and visa versa. Friendship is 2 way. Not necessarily balanced but def 2 way.
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The friend thing is tough. I don't feel it. He does. He says things like "we're best friends" and "You're my real friend". Again, friends don't treat each other like furniture. At least my other ones don't treat me like that. There is no friend bond there.
However, I do think allowing the possibility of a true friendship at a later time, when he's not so nutty, might pave the way home, or at least to a happy co-parenting situation for the kids. They are all that matter right now, anyway.
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I am glad I started this.....
This is my very own assessment into what my R is with my H.
I come from a spiritual background...I have been raised to believe that "Everything happens for a reason"
That people and events will take place in our lives to change the course of that path in order for US to
learn these valuable lessons God would want us to learn.
I believe...( and this is just me here ) That my H MLC and OW R was "set in stone" It was coming straight
for me whether I knew it or even wanted it to happen.
I do not want to change the course for which my H is taking, because then he wont learn these valuable
lessons that no one else can provide...THAT includes me. I know that I cannot give him what he needs
right now, by way of learning these important lessons that will help him grow and become whole as
a human. This is what I want for him.
Please do not misunderstand that his "cheating" was a complete disgrace to my Marriage and he KNOWS
he screwed up. But if I had screamed, pushed, begged, and maybe even blackmailed him into staying..
(which by the way, I have alot of dirt on him) LOL!! I could very well distroy his R with OW in a heartbeat.
It would have gotten me nowhere.
I have THAT much power to put a big ass wrench in their so called "love" BUT. Why would I do that?
There are many reasons....not just MLC. but because my H as a "person" needs to learn these lessons.
and I WANT him too! Whether he comes home to me, or stays with her. or someone else
AND, because everything is allready written...I have no control over what tomorrow brings. It is what it is.
This phrase: It IS what it is
Simply meaning....That I accept his flaws...BUT I do not accept his behaviour. I have told my H.
not to walk on me, that I am not a doormat...That I will decide what I will and will not do FOR
him.
The only reason..( if you know my sitch) that I even continue with these stupid "fake" convos...
Is because....I really like to see how the OW will twist into the wind and make it ALL about me.
I know my H's R with her...pretty well...I can tell you that if I were to text H with something simple...
like.."D13 needs shoes" This simple comment..sends her threw the roof! Don't ask me why...but it does
and the more she "FLIPS A LID" the more she looks like the worst thing my H has ever done....:)
anyway, I think I have gotten off topic now....continue:
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This is from one of RCR's newsletters from about a year ago. It's about Touch and Goes, but mentions a few things discussed in this thread.....friendliness, acceptance, and how the MLCer may have treated the LBS.
Touch-n-Goes are about testing, information fishing, putting out feelers and reassurance. The MLCer feels guilty and ashamed for causing you pain. Will you accept him, be kind and friendly even though he was not that way to you? They are testing both your forgiveness and acceptance and the integration of the two. Accepting the process of the crisis is different than accepting a person as they are now with their history of mistreatment. Remember how in the beginning people told you that the person you knew as your spouse was no longer the person you knew--that person was either dead, no longer existed, on a vacation, abducted by aliens…? That continues to be true. The Monster that was your MLCer is gradually crumbling and the person he will become is not that Monster. Will you be able to love, accept and forgive that new person knowing what the Monster did?
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I am glad I started this.....
I come from a spiritual background...I have been raised to believe that "Everything happens for a reason"
That people and events will take place in our lives to change the course of that path in order for US to
learn these valuable lessons God would want us to learn.
I believe...( and this is just me here ) That my H MLC and OW R was "set in stone" It was coming straight
for me whether I knew it or even wanted it to happen.
AND, because everything is allready written...I have no control over what tomorrow brings. It is what it is.
The only reason..( if you know my sitch) that I even continue with these stupid "fake" convos...
Is because....I really like to see how the OW will twist into the wind and make it ALL about me.
I know my H's R with her...pretty well...I can tell you that if I were to text H with something simple...
like.."D13 needs shoes" This simple comment..sends her threw the roof! Don't ask me why...but it does
and the more she "FLIPS A LID" the more she looks like the worst thing my H has ever done....:)
anyway, I think I have gotten off topic now....continue:
And forgive me, I am not judging or being critical, but I think you are too vested. You are not friends, you just admitted to playing them and enjoying it, and that is not detachment, either--just sayin', seriously, no judment or criticism, we all do what we want, need or believe, but I would not recommend what you are doing to anyone else.
You are admitting to liking that you have control, but what if it starts to get ugly--do you really want to be there when she goes ballistic and comes to vandalize your house, or who knows what? That is why I want no part of their craziness. I never want to give either of them any ammo to use against me. He wanted out, I gave him out, with NC, and no obligations but a monthly check, there is no arguing with that, the judge ordered it. You may be paving the way, but you may also be manipulating, intentionally or not, and if one of them comes to believe that, it could backfire. Of course you know your H and your sitch better than anyone and you have to do what you think is right.
So many people wonder why I am so strict about NC, but I don't want to EVER incite any negative emotion. I don't want to say S13 needs shoes, I want to just be able to buy them. That was why I never opposed legal settlement--I didn't want to be at his mercy for anything, there is nothing I need to ask him for and nothing we must communicate about, so he can no longer blame me for anything. This is his life now. So, I hope you know what you're doing, but be careful--I would not want to mess with two precarious people...
Also, do you really believe we have no power to change our lives or those of another? Doesn't that make everything sort of sad and boring. I have always been in a helping profession and if I didn't believe I could make a difference, I couldn't do it. I am not even sure I could have made it through the last 18 months if I didn't believe I HAD to and that I was in control of my life now. In a way I believe I have a "destiny," but that I control HOW I get there, and I can go kicking and screaming or accept the path, which means making the most of every day, and to paraphrase Paolo Coehlo--when I seek my destiny, the universe will conspire to assist.
Anyway, just be careful, in this world we only control ourselves, and I have seen over and over that it is best to keep a safe distance and have good boundaries with unstable people--I have worked in mental health, so I know enough to be scared...
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This is a very interesting topic. I'm also glad you started it.
Friends? No. I don't think so. Friends don't treat each other in this manner. I have read the articles and, I believe, that if my H and I are to ever reconcile - we will need to become friends to each other.....I'm just not there, yet.
I do believe that I have detached enough and let go of my anger and hurt enough to be "friendly" to him. That is, of course, if he is contacting me and being friendly to me.
Hmmmm. Interesting topic.
No. I don't think that you can "friend" them out of MLC. (I know that most all of us realize this). I do think that being "friendly" in response to their kind and friendly gestures do some "paving the way."
I just don't think this is something an LBS can do while the MLCer is in Monster or self-destructive, etc.
"Mirror" is the word.....(as opposed to "Grease").
One question - Does mirroring "Monster" pave the way, too? (Just kidding....no need to respond to that).
Limitless
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Lisa,
Like I said before...This is the way that works for you...and there is nothing wrong with that.
It is afterall what you can handle...
Limit,
I think if our H's or W's are treating us with disrespect, of course there is no way of sitting there and "taking" it.
being a friend "at the right time" for what works for you. This is what matters.
but, in here...I believe, some are still holding onto the bitterness of what "they" have done.
It's realizing...THEY did it to themselves. THEY are the ones that WILL ultimatly MEET their maker...right?
In the end, ALL of us who judge, cheat..become evil people..WE all will have to reap what we sow.
I do not need to judge my H for HIS choices. this is up to God and HIM. no one else.
SO learning to let go of that is important...Just my .02 here again.
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Synicca,
It's realizing...THEY did it to themselves. THEY are the ones that WILL ultimatly MEET their maker...right?
In the end, ALL of us who judge, cheat..become evil people..WE all will have to reap what we sow.
I do not need to judge my H for HIS choices. this is up to God and HIM. no one else.
Very well said.
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Syn,
Yes. I certainly see what you mean.
Actually, during our entire marriage....I was the one to hold onto anger and resentment. (And he provided plenty of reasons for me to be angry).
I guess if there is one thing that I have learned through this entire mess - is that I had to learn to let go of things. Not hold them inside me. Let go of the anger. Let go of the hurt. Let go of the resentment.
RCR writes about the LBS taking the crisis personally - and that we need to NOT take it personnally. (I'm sure DGU knows which article this comes from). ;)
When I start to feel anger at what he's done - I think about the fact that I am taking it personally.
You are so right. They do this to themselves. We are collateral damage...but truly they do this to themselves.
As Stayed so aptly puts is "I'd rather be the LBS than the MLCer ANY DAY."
Limitless
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And I think...THAT is the first step to "letting go" Its really accepting that THEY did this to themselves.
NOT us...Yes, it hurts, yes it tears apart our children...and that SUCKS!
but, we can choose to let it define us or not...anger is a horrible thing if you allow it to turn into resentment.
and it changes you...resentment changes who you are...the very core of your spirit. and we shouldnt do that.
God doesnt want us to be full of resentment. he wants us to be in peace. Finding it is the hard part...taking the
first step is even harder...but it can be done.
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Fabulous topic. This is something that gets "skirted around" here but not often directly addressed.
Of course, every LBS's sitch is different and it's hard to make generalizations about this but, for me, I've found that the kinder I am to my H, the kinder he is to me. It's almost spooky how that's the case for me.
Syn, I agree with you that the MLCer is "ordained" to take this journey, that they must work on the issues that are unresolved in their lives, or the unprocessed pain/depression, and that's what the MLC is all about.
As LBSers all we can do is get out of their way and not pursue or pressure. That's why letting the MLCer set the pace completely on contact is so crucial. They feel so out of control (despite what they say) in their lives that anything that gives them a sense that they're in control (like when and if they contact their spouse/family) helps them calm themselves. At least that's what I observe with my H.
I almost never initiate contact with my H since he left to live with OW 7 months ago. He, however, contacts me every 3 - 4 weeks. We see each other once or twice a month (lunch, coffee, he comes to the house for a visit, etc.)
It helps that he & OW are living 90 miles from me so I don't have to run into him/them and our only child's an adult (D22) so there's no custody stuff. H & D talk on the phone, not frequently, but more than H and I do. She refuses to visit him at this time because she disapproves of what he's doing (she's made this very clear to him) and she doesn't like the OW but she does talk with her F with some regularity.
When H and I are together I try to be warm, cordial, mirroring, affirming and to listen and reflect what he's saying. I give no advice, make no editorial comments, no R talk, and OW is not discussed by either of us. In fact, I act like she doesn't exist.
I say nothing negative to H, even when I'm angry. For example, he's recently told me he won't be able to afford to pay his half of our D's grad school tuition for this semester (something he agreed to do in our settlement agreement.) He told me he'd have to owe me the money. I simply said, "I understand. I know you're good for it." What I really wanted to say was "You and OW just bought a 54 foot boat to live on and you're telling me you can't afford $5,000 for your daughter's education!!! You a** h***!"
I only ask questions about his work and health and not very many of those. He, on the other hand, almost grills me (in a friendly way) on what I'm doing. He's like a man who's been wandering in the desert and has found an oasis. He wants to know everything I'm doing and asks lots of questions, in a nice way. I'm working very hard at GALing so there's always a lot to tell. He seems a bit stunned in fact by all I'm up to.
As time goes on H is becoming warmer to me. The last time I saw him (three weeks ago) he asked just before he left if he could "have a hug." It was the first time we'd hugged in 7 months. Last week, for the first time since he left 7 months ago, he came by the house unannounced (I think he was checking up on me, to see if the changes he sees when he visits are "real.") Luckily I was on my way out to a lunch date, (had makeup on and was dressed up a bit.http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) So I had to apologize that I couldn't visit with him. His excuse for coming by was to drop off some mail that had been mistakenly ended up being forwarded to him. The "mail" was advertisements!
So by being kind, not confronting him, not reminding him of how unhappy he's made me, not acknowledging OW, not taking any "bait" he puts out (the tuition issue may have been an attempt on his part to button push) I feel I'm showing H that I accept him and that he can trust me. It's counter intuitive that's for sure, but, as I've heard said somewhere, "Would you rather be right or be married?"
MLC doesn't last forever, that I do believe. I can (I hope and pray!) endure his behavior because I believe there's hope of reconciliation and, if that happens, he will eventually deeply regret his current choices and actions. His "right mind" will return. That's my hope anyway.
And I agree that unconditional love should be our goal. It's one of the changes I'm having to really look at in myself. I took so much for granted in my marriage and I can see, with the clarity of hindsight, that my behavior was often cruel and selfish to my H (yes, I was no angel!)
Change is what the MLC journey is about and not only for the MLCer but for us, the LBSs, too. If we can keep the "unconditionals" as our guides, I believe we'll be better off, whatever the outcome of our sitchs.
My rant for the evening!
TMHP
M 58
H 60
D 22
M 38 yrs.
BD Jan.'11
H living with OW
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Like everyone else, I find this a good topic. I know during our marriage when all we were "normal", hed often say that he didnt beleive that that when a couple broke up they could be friends untill a long time later.
BUT, now he feels WE CAN be friends and I think thats cos I make it wasy for him. I dont fight, nag, argue, pry, condemn. I just smile, set my boundary of no sex while he is having sex with someone else. This made him decide he wasnt going to ask to stay over anymore
I think its easier for me becos we dont have children together. The legal paperwork is signed . He cried when he did his side. Couldnt do it for ages as he said it hurt too much.
I dont see him as my friend or vice versa. I also see him as my husband.I think he sees me as his friend becos Im friendly and supportive and dont criticise.He told his parents we are getting on really well..AMAZING..LOL..he really believes that becos of my positive veneer.
Maybe our H's/W's see us as friends becos we are supportive and non threatening and they know us well? I will always be open to contact as long as my H respects me and doesnt talk about any OW he may have. I dont want to know anything that can feed my imagination. Its bad enough already !
I have to stand back and let him fall . Cant pick him up and kiss him better. I know he only has around $1200 left and has not job yet and hasnt looked for one. Yes, Im worried and perhaps he may try asking for a loan...but I cant be THAT type of friend. Still too early for that. He needs to support right himself now. THings ma change but this stage is vital for him. ..and for ME!!
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I just wanted to touch on the word anger. Not the resentful, spewing, restless, rage but pure anger - closely linked to assertiveness.
When my H changes agreed boundaries, then I am angry at the situation. Not necessarily at him but at the situation. I want to be honest with him so I let him know that this isn't appropriate. Actually, he usually understands and is more respectful to me when I'm clear with him.
That for me is assertiveness. I see nothing wrong with being angry any more than I see there is anything wrong with being sad or happy. I also tell him when I've naffed up. That's honesty. (I don't like naffing up but that's another story!! ;D)
So what I've learnt from MLC, being in it myself no doubt as the LBS, is that I need to respect myself. It has helped me know when to respect my H too and when I've got it wrong and have to own up. The best friend I can have at the moment, is myself.
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I am a friend to Dearheart.
I am a friend to many people though. He is not my best friend as he once was, nor is he my confidante as he once was.
I support my friends through their worst times of their lives. A friend through drugs, dearheart through MLc and another friend through his affairing down. I don't like their behaviour and try not to condone it but I don't leave them either.
I know I am the black sheep here LOL. I see things differently to many. You need to do what is right for you. NC works for you great. Wanna sleep with your H as long as you know how it is, FABULOUS.
Trouble for me started when I thoughti would follow the LBS hand book. I stopped doing what had been "working" for me for what I was being told to do. because hey what would i know?
I was doing EVERYTHING wrong according to everyone and so I tried to stop listening to my intuition and I was pulled back into line quick smart. For those who don't believe that's fine, for those who think I am crazy that's ok, oddly enough I'm happy. I FEEL that I'm doing the right thing. And believe me I really was pulled back into line. It was obvious, very obvious that i was not doing what i was meant to.
We all look at each other in amazement.
We wonder how another person does something.
We are each guided to deal with our crisis as we should. Simple as that.
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Shantilly,
Your not the only black sheep!! LOL!!!
I am the same way...I have listened to my intuition...When I dont. I get a big slap in the face. There is some things
we have to do in our OWN sitches that make "sense" to US.
Some may never want to touch base with their MLCers for doing what they do...but I am a firm believer
that my H is not of right mind and body...and I cant be angry at him for that.
He is being pulled into things that are evil and discouraging...but I know my H loves me and would die for me
right now...I know this..and that is enough.
You have to beable to work through the anger in order to find peace.
Anger is a good thing....only if it drives you to become a better person, and not some resentful creature
who hates people and wishes this never happened.
You can't move forward living in the WRONG kind of anger. Unconditional love is key.
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Three Black Sheep.
I think my H has completely lost the ability to communicate. I know he has LOW SELF Esteem. When I let go an "I love you" later a few days later I'll apologize slightly and ask "I should stop saying I love you and miss you Right?"
He always says..." No NO It's OK."
LG laughs. Stop telling him you love him... LOL OK one of these days.
I love what you both said Syn and Shant. and Shant oh yeah When you say DearHeart....I think of BraveHeart! :)
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Hi,I know that when I let go of my anger last year , but my H was still here, I couldn't be a friend to him, even though I wasn't angry, he was just too much withdrawn into himself and MLC and OW. Since he left in Feb this year, I was initially very angry, but more recently have been forgiving and open to meeting him, speaking with him, and he has begun to confide in me and even listen to the things I say and act upon them. I hope that by trying to be friends again, he will see that he could become a part of out family, but whatever happens, we are all happier because we are not angry any more, and we communicate better.
Anger and resentment are destructive both personally and to a relationship. It would however be very hard for me to be a friend to my H if he started seeing a OW again... I would find that very difficult to deal with. When he had the OW he didn't want to spend any time with me anyway, so problem solved? Maybe.
Lots of love xxxx
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IPXPE,, Hi. Ii never got ANGRY yet. I'm almost afraid of anger sneaking up on me from behind. I guess after BD 2-11-11 I just cried,came here and started to get up and dust myself off.
I figue if sick puppy is running away someone has to be the lighthouse Right?
Luckily he respects my boundaries of keep ow talk and visuals away from me and OUR Ds. Period. Still..if anger is something I need to go through then where is it? ::)
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the strange thing about me, is I actually try to reach DEEP inside of me to find the anger...
and I have NONE.....Mamma, you may have the ability to "let it go" just like me??
Its hard, I wonder where it went...*POOF* its nowhere to be found!
I get angry at "situations" but that's about it...I may rant about it, but then its gone too..LOL!!
I used to hold onto anger like the plague....but for some odd reason, God helped me learn how to
get through it and not let it change me...:)
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Syn My Mother In Law speaks Ukrainian mostly. When I tell her a long drawn out story about anything that happens in life she always shrugs and says "So don't do it." and then I ask her 94 years of wisdom What is your reasoning and she says "WHAT FOR?" I love that so much. Think through the feelings you are having and decide how to RESPOND ( not REACT) by doing a risk/benefit ratio. And the answer usually is Don't Do it. What for? :)
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Hi Mamma, I don't think anger is good, it was just something that I felt and I had to go through . I would have been a happier person without the anger all along ... I am happier now I have let it go, we are all happier H and D's too. His anger has also abated.
You are lucky to have been without anger all along, I think it is a very negative emotion. Occasionally I still can feel it deep in there, but I make every effort to change it into a more positive emotion, so my words come out differently and do not cause offense.
You must be a really positive person, its taken me so long to get to this place of peace. And I'm still working on it! Mamma bear what a great name too, it sounds cuddly and warm!! Take care xxx
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IPXPE, I am afraid the anger is dormant but I can not detect it. Hmmm? Maybe my FOO issues with anger was tied to my drinking alcohol. Being alcohol free for 10 years maybe the anger left with the alcohol. I'm a pretty free spirit mostly. I'll give anyone the shirt off my back. But for some strange reason people are always getting up in my grill and start something or other. I shrug it off as their insecurity. My boss this week was over the top....I kept thinking WTF? Mean people suck. Our Hs really have been abducted by Aliens and I can see behind his eyes that he's trying to send me a signal that he wants out!
Thanks for all those nice compliments. I am probably very much like yourself. :)
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Mamma,
My mom, says the same thing!! :) Why worry about it? "let go and Let God" you cant change it...
why worry??!! :) words of wisdom...gotta love the elders!!
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Here's RCR's article that talks about LBS emotions. Anger doesn't necessarily come right away.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_unconditionals_forgiveness_stages-of-victim-development.html
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From Limitless
"RCR writes about the LBS taking the crisis personally - and that we need to NOT take it personnally. (I'm sure DGU knows which article this comes from)."
DGU in his best Lurch voice...."You rang?"
RCR's article Love & Indifference ends this way.....
"It is not personal; he is dead inside."
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Yep my H said he felt dead inside ... said I had killed him too ... I hope he realises now that it wasn't me it was MLC. He told me today he's been looking at photos from 5-6 years ago and he's not smiling on any of them. This was the time his father was diagnosed with Cancer and started chemo, that was a trigger I am almost certain.
Mamma bear and Syn ... you're so right don't do it ... what for ... let go and let God. My Gran was 97 when she died and she was full of wisdom, I wish she was here now, and my Mum & Dad too, they were so happy and so wise. I hope my kids think that about me someday!!
Trying to be a forgiving friend, that's me! xxx Definitely nicer than angry me. lots of love xxx
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Interesting to see how everyone is learning to walk the friendship line.
3 years in, I have found a comfortable place, for me.
Early on, H told me it was the friendship that was most important part of the R w/ho, that she should move in and would be a good influence on our kids, loved to cook and clean, and would enhance our M all around. :o Duh, it was easy to draw a boundary there! But the "how to be" with him was a bit harder. ::)
Now, I am pretty dark with him but I am there for him under all the 'stuff', but won't deal with his dramas. For example, when he was complaining to me about trying hook up internet service with the "idiots from the phone co", I drew a line and said "Don't come here pretending everything is ok and that I will listen to your tales of woe about your nesting and shacking up with OW." But on the other hand, When he sent me an obit from an old friend of his, I immediately called him, and listened to him talk about the guy. I knew I was the only one who knew what this man meant to him. I am sure ho sympathized, but our unspoken knowledge is so much deeper. Overall, I am cordial, like i am with a neighbor or the cable guy, ya know, nothing too personal, but if 'true connection' ( I don't know what to call that profound connection that binds us underneath all the crap) is needed, I am there. (Life, death, illness,....rock bottom)
"I will not have a relationship with you while you are involved with OW"
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LGO, my H also said to me during BD time that, if I was willing, OW could live with us and "sleep at the bottom of the bed"! He told me that I would come to love her just like he had. He was serious.
You really can't make this stuff up. They're sooooo bonkers.
TMHP
M 58
H 60
D 22
M 38 yrs.
BD Jan. '11
H living with OW
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Trusting.....that is sooo funny!! I mean, where in that brain of theirs that they think that would be ok?
and sleep at the foot of the bed????? really??? Was/is she a dog??? LOL!!!
I am sorry, but its so true, you just cant make this stuff up!! :) :) :)
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Yeah mine said why couldn't he have two families? Why couldn't he spend time with her for half the week, and me for the other half??
Wonder why that couldn't work for me?? Don't think it would have worked for her either!
He was crazy to even think it could, but then yes, he was crazy!!
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LMAO!! The visual alone. Do we have to pat on the bed like we do for the dog? Come on girl come on jump up! Good Girl. :o
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We should start a thread entitled "the craziest things our MLCers said to us at BD." Would make for verrry entertaining reading, I'm sure.
We'd be shaking our heads and laughing them off at the same time!
TMHP
M 58
H 60
D 22
M 38 yrs.
BD Jan. '11
H living with OW
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Trusting, We had that thread. Scripts Our MLCers Read From....
I think the winner was "I know she's a ow but she needs me."
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OMG! That is unbelievable! I'll look for the thread.
Thanks!
TMHP
M 58
H 60
D 22
M 38 yrs.
BD Jan. '11
H living with OW
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Not meaning to hijack the topic but.... just an intermission for leavity....
Also look for "The Script...animated" thread if you haven't seen it, and check out this bomb drop skit...here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xza2N_RPhQ&playnext=1&list=PL63F6F7E8B3470413)
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oh yes LGO....The animated script thread......LOVE LOVE the videos....hehehe
But we are so happy....we are soulmates!! :)
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But we are so happy....we are soulmates!!
Schmoopies!
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This is what RCR said in my coaching regarding my h wanting to be friends with me:
It is a game for him. He’s trying to get you to be a friend to him while refusing to be one to you. What he’s really trying to get you to be is a buddy. That’s a friend without commitment and no boundaries. Be a true friend. Visit him in the hospital, feed his cat while he’s in jail—or bail him out if that won’t be enabling. True friends don’t abuse the privileges of friendship. That is something you can tell him when he says that he is trying to get you to be his friend.
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Interesting to see how everyone is learning to walk the friendship line.
3 years in, I have found a comfortable place, for me.
Early on, H told me it was the friendship that was most important part of the R w/ho, that she should move in and would be a good influence on our kids, loved to cook and clean, and would enhance our M all around. :o Duh, it was easy to draw a boundary there! But the "how to be" with him was a bit harder. ::)
Now, I am pretty dark with him but I am there for him under all the 'stuff', but won't deal with his dramas. For example, when he was complaining to me about trying hook up internet service with the "idiots from the phone co", I drew a line and said "Don't come here pretending everything is ok and that I will listen to your tales of woe about your nesting and shacking up with OW." But on the other hand, When he sent me an obit from an old friend of his, I immediately called him, and listened to him talk about the guy. I knew I was the only one who knew what this man meant to him. I am sure ho sympathized, but our unspoken knowledge is so much deeper. Overall, I am cordial, like i am with a neighbor or the cable guy, ya know, nothing too personal, but if 'true connection' ( I don't know what to call that profound connection that binds us underneath all the crap) is needed, I am there. (Life, death, illness,....rock bottom)
"I will not have a relationship with you while you are involved with OW"
Yeah mine said why couldn't he have two families? Why couldn't he spend time with her for half the week, and me for the other half??
Wonder why that couldn't work for me?? Don't think it would have worked for her either!
He was crazy to even think it could, but then yes, he was crazy!!
LGO, my H also said to me during BD time that, if I was willing, OW could live with us and "sleep at the bottom of the bed"! He told me that I would come to love her just like he had. He was serious.
You really can't make this stuff up. They're sooooo bonkers.
TMHP
M 58
H 60
D 22
M 38 yrs.
BD Jan. '11
H living with OW
Ladies, these have to be the most insane things I have ever heard!!! I thought my W came up with some off-the-wall crazy things, but those mostly had to do with her "plan that she had meticulously planned over the last 2 years." The plan that did not include her having money, a place to stay or a car she could afford. The same plan that, now executed, has her stranded in another town in the ghetto with not enough gas money to make more than one trip here before payday and had her sleeping at her parents' last week because she couldn't afford to drive home (our D was with her so that WAS true).
But, I could not imagine if she had brought up moving an OM in with us!! What, do these H's watch 'Sister Wives" or something? It makes you wonder if Mormons who believe in polygamy go through this. Hmmm... There I go on the religious connection again. Just think, if they could just add a couple more W's then everything would work out. No one would have a problem with that, would they? And, hey, if the OW wore the same size you'd effectively double your wardrobe!! (That's the same joke I use about homosexuality).
I hope no one takes offense at my early-morning jab at humor. I could never keep up with Mamma, LC or the rest but I try.
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Thundarr,
Yes. They (the MLCers) don't really think too clearly about things.
My H, when he left, planned to get an apartment near our home. He was going to give each of the kids a key - so that they could visit anytime.
Great plan!
Also, with what money? Oops, he didn't think about that.
A year later, he still lives in his parents guest room.
Commutes 50 miles (one way) to work each day. (Work is about 2 miles from our home).
Spends all his $$ on gasoline...and whatever else.
No. They really don't think things through too well.
It kind of confirms the whole MLC and teenage/childhood stuff about MLC.
A teenager dreams of running away from home. Doesn't think too much about where he/she will sleep or where the next meal will come from.
An adult - who is finished with his marriage - (I would think) - would have some plan on where he/she will live, how he/she will afford it, how he/she will be able to provide for their children, etc.
A child/teenager just runs away.
Boy...was that a hijack! This thread is about friendship with your MLCer. Whoops!
Limitless
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Limitless,
As my mom and I were talking last night and having a laugh about my W's master plan, the thought came to me that she might has well have written it out on a napkin in crayon!!! And this is the woman who planned our vacation to Disneyworld and Daytona down almost to the hour and it went flawlessly!! Unbelievable.
Anyway, hijack over.
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Boy...was that a hijack! This thread is about friendship with your MLCer. Whoops!
Anyway, hijack over.
I think the discussion led to this is b/c we are trying to figure how to be a friend and have an adult friendship with a rebelious confused, teenager who cannot think past getting todays' needs met.
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Thundarr, Are you kidding me? You are so funny. Everyone here keeps up with the great sense of humor.
Imagine we were writing a movie for Hollywood. It's a comedy. Hmmmm? Where can we get some material? Thundarr, It's our lives.
The one person on this planet we thought would always have our backs STABBED US IN THE BACK. Now they are texting OM/OW in
front of their kids. Making out at the ice skating rink in front of my kids (D9 and 11) That was ONE time. After that no more ow outings. They smile and give us the eye. If not not for you, soon.
Every single thing they say and do is priceless. I just saw a book in the hospital gift shop called something like "Talking to your Teenage Son" or Inside the Brain of your Teenage Son. Whatever I'll find out. I skimmed it and I want to read it so I know what my 51 year old once kind considerate and loving H is thinking. Selfishness is his 180. MLC takes TIME.......
He's my friend bc he always was and he always will be. No matter what kind of weird alter personality he is in. Captured. I know that he knows that I know OW means nothing. So for my own survival EVERYTHING IS FUNNY. :o :o
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You know, as I was browsing Barnes and Noble looking for some of the recommended books the other day I ran across a couple about talking to your teenager. I by-passed them as I thought about how my teenage daughter has matured so much we have really no conflicts at all anymore. I didn't stop to think about how my W is now the new pubescent teenager in my life and how it may really benefit me to read up on it now.
Funny thing is I turned down a job recently as a therapist at a girl's home and my reasoning was that after dealing with my D's teenage years I couldn't imagine working with 12-20 teenage girls. Funny, I could probably have learned alot that might help me now in trying to be friends with my teenage wife.
It's really hard to be friends with a 41 year-old who seems to be obsessed with her cell phone and texting. It's absolutely sickening to watch. It's especially sad when I see her and her mother (who has full-blown Alzheimers) both not being themselves together and knowing that both MAY be this way forever. Sometimes I think my MIL has a better chance of coming out of it than my W does. I miss my best friend.
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Thundarr, This to will pass. I really think it's a phase if you will and they wake up. Give her (the teenager) SPACE and TIME. I highly recommend Duct tape over the mouth. My H is like :o :o :o
What happened to the shrew? I am quiet and distant around him. Even when he's telling me about running out of gas in his own driveway. While running over to OUR GARGE to borrow the gas can. (can't just buy a new one they cost $5) DRAMA! Gas can equals another Touch N Go....Just Go...LOL :o
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LGO, Oh my gosh thank you, you finally gave me the right lens and it all makes sense now. How can reasonable and considerate adults be friends with irrational teenagers who can only see the world through their selfish prism? If my exH ever makes it out of the tunnel and remembers who he used to be, I can try to be friends with that person, but in the meantime, the selfish teenager is not looking like a good prospect.
He can't talk about or relate to ANYTHING in the same way I do and we don't have the same values. Right now I sit in a quandary because S12 is apparently coming home today (he said he was not going to because I was mad that he missed an orthodontist appointment and would not let him see Hangover 2) after a visit to exH and OW who took him shopping and to an amusement park and all kinds of stuff. My kids use her, they know they can, they admit it and they like it. I do not like this in my kids, it is not the kind of people I want them to be, and if we were friends, I would be able to talk to exH about it. But I am not allowed to talk to him about anything having to do with her, his rules. Also, S12 wanted to talk to exH about living with him permanently--perfect sitch, right, living with a couple fun teenagers? I thought about telling exH, but even my raising it would put me on the defensive, he would step up to be the savior, S12 would be packing his bags and leaving for parts unknown. Even if all is perfect in their world, exH and OW need time to stabilize first, this would not be a good idea, but he wants to be everyone’s hero, especially his kids. S14 on the other hand is still really struggling with all this, hates his father and has gotten out of seeing him two of the last three scheduled visits, but I can’t talk to him about this either because absolutely nothing is wrong with either of our kids, and the only problem in this sitch is me and the way I perceive things. S14 balled up in his bed sobbing holding baby pictures and screaming that he hates D is surely my doing, not his own feeling, right—I felt that for a long time because H said it so much it had to be true…
Anyway, the list goes on. I can’t talk about anything having to do with my kids--from medical bills to friends. I can’t talk to him about my job because I still feel resentment for the fact that he totally screwed up our lives and I had to reinvent everything about myself to save me and my kids (and yes I am working on that, but it will take just a tad longer, and getting out of the debt he left me with will be a good start, but it will take another two years). I can’t talk to him about our friends, he has alienated all of them, and I don’t know anything about his new life, so where is the basis for a friendship? I feel like our past was the foundation for any friendship we could ever have, but if he denies the past I thought we had by saying he never loved me, that I killed him slowly and painfully, not to mention I was unattractive and didn’t dress well enough, then there is nothing—my friends at a very minimum HAVE to believe I am beautiful and look younger than my age and tell me that at least once a month—yes I AM that shallow ;-)! I could try to be HIS friend and listen to his problems and empathize with OW issues, but why, I got too much to do (thanks to him) and other friends who need me and will give back (and have given so much in the last five years, so I have some debts to pay in that regard!) and are not intent on screwing up their own lives and wallowing in messes of their own making...
For some reason that little rant felt really good, thank you, thank you! LGO, you helped me clarify to myself why I don't have to feel bad for not trying harder to be his friend. I still sometimes (really, a lot) beat myself up over all of this, and doubt every choice I have ever made in my life--he would have stayed if I had not given up strappy heels for practical flats, and if I try harder to be his friend he will realize he loves me--not! I was his friend and he kicked me to the curb with the rest of his friends, his choice, not our mistakes! Today you set me free and that felt so cathartic, I think I'll go buy shoes--Glamour says the fall trend is platform sandals with black tights and there are lots of good ones on sale! I'm the clumsiest person in the world so I might die, but at least no one will be able to deny that I was fashionable when I fell to my demise, and at my funeral all my FRIENDS will say I was beautiful one last time!
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The link to RCR's article the Friendship Balance was posted earlier.....and recent posts like OMR's and LGO's have touched on this.....MLCers in Replay want buddies. The LBS can determine the opportunities where friendship can come into play based on the behaviors of the MLCer. I think LisaLives points out some excellent examples of what RCR bullet points below.
When should you start the friendship process? Starting it is something you should do immediately so that you are Paving the Way, but when should you allow a friendship relationship and when should you use the line? There are times when your MLCer is seeking you as a friend rather than a buddy or when your MLCer needs a friend or if they are not seeking but they may be open to your initiation of friendship. Replayers want buddies and are abusive to their friends. If your MLCer is being emotionally abusive, he will abuse you if you offer your friendship. But it is not only Replayers that abuse your friendship. MLCers who want to come home or who want you to wait and be there for them but also want their adulterous life will use friendship to continue to Cake-Eat.
No Contact, Friendship is non-active
Monster or Replayers
•Your MLCer is openly involved in an affair.
•Your MLCer is taunting you with the infidelity.
•Your MLCer is taunting you with legal tactics.
•Your MLCer is being Monster, spewing--blame and projection.
Cake-Eaters
•Your MLCer is being needy and wants to lean on you without helping himself.
•Your MLCer wants you to baby and take care of him--S-Mother warning!
•Your MLCer wants a relationship with you and the OW.
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LisaLeaves Your friends will say "She never looked better." :)
I'm sorry for you that your H can't be nice. The only reason I am friendly with my H is bc he's acting like a new neighbor who comes around to see my kids and flirt with me. Since it's ONLY 6 months post BD today :) I figured I'd just go with it. Feels OK for me. ::) For now.
So while I work on myself I WATCH this play out. Friendly keeps it calm. He's a marshmellow. If he was Monster I'd hit him upside his head with a whiffle ball bat! :o :o
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MB, the biggest problem for me is he is not, not nice. And I tried so hard in the beginning to try to be his friend. He will be really nice, he'll tell me how much he loves me and has always loved me and wants the best for me and then three hours later he'll tell me that I have to pay all the therapy bills because he can't and he doesn't see why S's have to go to therapy anyway since there is nothing wrong with them... Or he'll tell me how wonderful I am and how he never wants to hurt me and then neglect to tell me that he is taking OW to a very public event in my place.
It's the madness and the chaos that I kept getting sucked into that I just had to let go. But in hindsight, it is just a huge magnification of our whole marriage. His internal demon is a battle to be good enough, for instances, things can be good, but then he turns around and everything sucks and we need to this and that, and it was always my fault--the fact that the west side of the house always needs paint and the crabgrass thrives, you know... All the crazy making stuff I just have no time or energy to fix anymore--cause it seems I was never good at it anyway, so now that's HER job! It's all so sad, really, I wish he were monster, then I could really dsilike him instead of feeling so sorry for him, and her...
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Thanks Synicca for starting this thread.
It's so interesting to see all the different points of view. I love the fact that everyone here is so respectful of each other's opinions.
LisaLives,
I want to thank you also for very eloquently stating your views. You expressed a lot of concerns and opinions that I also have; as you often do.
I cannot be just friends with my XH. I have given this lots of thought over the years. I told him that once, and he agreed that he didn't think that we could be just friends either. The thing is, when he connects with me, he acts more like he wants to be friends rather than reconcile our marriage. It's rather clear to me that he wants to start off with a friendship, with the hopes that it will turn into something else. He talks out of both sides of his mouth.
There are a few problems that I have with even attemping the friendship, as a stepping stone to something more. He still tries to dismiss my feelings, and doesn't show true remorse. Friends don't discount your feelings, they try to understand and treat you with respect. At least anyone that I care to call friend. We can't get very far in our conversations with one another without hitting a hot button, and he doesn't often handle it well. Sometimes it's me that doesn't handle it well because it's nauseatingly painful that after 5 long years, he still only throws a few crumbs.
I've told him that a decent divorce settlement would be a good start to a better relationship of some sort. He still won't do that. He still acts immature, selfish, and shows very little in the way of morals. Maybe this is the person he's decided to be. Not my kind of friend. Not now anyway.
Even having said all that, if he ever reached out to me in real need. I know that I wouldn't be able to turn him away. The love for him as a human being will always remain. I'm pretty sure deep down inside of him, he knows that too.
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GottaBe Me I just think of him as a mental patient now and only half listen to the junk mail discussions and insane ramblings. I figure if/when he wakes up we'll be on good terms. (with the mental patient) I don't attribute any normal cognitive reasoning skills to him at this time. He's handicapped. (apparently so is Bowser) Happiness pouring out of the sky. :)
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MamaBear,
I just love your attitude, and your humor. I'm sure for your sitch, you are doing the right things.
You are an inspiration! You rock girlfriend! I'm so glad that you are here. :)
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M=Must L=Lie C=continuously
So even if I'm his 'friend' today I'm probably his enemy tomorrow....!!!
Gotta a few more ideas for these and will post on my thread. Helps keep me sane ;)
Sil x
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Sil, M=More L=Lunacy C=Craziness
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Mamma,
Last one for day...don't make me do it..... ;)
M=married L=left C=cheated
Gotta ;D
Sil x
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LOL you guys...That was funny!! ;D ;D ;D