Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: unbroken on August 14, 2011, 05:49:15 AM
-
I'm wondering if anyone can explain how our MLCers find movement through the tunnel.
-
LIW
If I understand your question correctly, what makes them finally work through their issues is entering into Liminality. As RCR notes in the article, this is when the real work begins. Here's the link.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality.html
-
I often wonder that too...
How is it that they even begin to "look" at themselves?
I know in my own sitch, I told my H that there is lessons to be learned here...but what they are is up to him
to figure out....but sheesh! How do they figure it out??
I think if they stay lost in the tunnel..( reason for never coming back ) what the heck brings them out??
is it when they hit rock bottom and cant figure out what they are doing wrong and they continue to try something
different?? hmmm what if they never get to a place that works? and then they just dont care??
Argh...this is a hard subject!
-
From Synicca's post:
"is it when they hit rock bottom and cant figure out what they are doing wrong and they continue to try something different??"
From the Liminality article referenced above:
"the MLCer falls to rock bottom, the home of the Shadow. This is the place he has been avoiding through out this crisis and thus there is a likelihood that he will hang on the chasm's ledge and try not to fall. The depression gets deeper with the Liminality phase when the old Self dies to create a new Self--Ego-Death."
-
LIW I know what you mean, i have often wondered given my H is a conflict avoider how on earth will he ever face up to his issues, however recently little things he has slipped into conversations has made me think maybe he is.
For example the other week when i caught him again at OW he said.... why do i keep doing this, i don't want another family. i have MY family i need to stop, work out why i am ruining things, hurting you over and over. He also said how can you still have me here after all this, i said because I love you and truly believe we will be OK, he said I don't deserve you in my life. Hopefully this means he is starting to look at where he is and what he is doing.
-
I think we would all like more insight into this topic - my xh never shows any signs of 'exiting" replay and I am starting to belive he will never come through this.
hugs
Tiff
-
I don't know the answer, but I suspect the MLCer will have to hit their "bottom"..... the lowest point of their lives.... where they are essentially in the gutter of life because of their choices. At that point, there is nothing but to "surrender" and ask for help from a higher power.... their best thinking got them to this miserable place, the same as any addict.
I have been at the place of surrender more than once.... the place of despair and pain.... where I admitted I could not "handle" this by myself, and the support of family is not available to me as they don't understand MLC, and the support of the forum is just that... support (thank you all so very much) but NOW it is time for REAL HELP.... to TURN OVER the situation to the "universe, higher power, God"....
Just my take on it.
-
What makes them hit bottom though? I mean what if they just stay in the tunnel with no forward movement? My H (timewise) should still be in replay, but he is not really monster-ish anymore (well we have very little contact - absolutely NO social contact). Also he seems perfectly satisfied in OW relationship. What would make OW relationship start to unravel? Because frankly my H was so TERRIFIED of being "alone" that I don't imagine him ever leaving her...
And can someone remind me about limbo? What it is and when it is likely to occur, if it does? Thanks !
-
I'm finding that if I listen carefully and read his texts carefully I can HEAR him asking himself questions.
Recently he was heard saying " That guy Bob caused this depression. My old boss started this depression." :o :o
And " Mamma Bear, Harry is a real A**hole. Oh and i guess I am also." :o :o
He also started saying "My brothers and sister never gave a crap about me. I was the youngest. I got screwed out of so much."
And my favorite " If you won't be my friend I won't have any." :o :o :o
I believe he is isolated over there at OWs and his messages are sounding more and more depressed. Letting him twist in the wind . I act like a pit crew at the Indiannapolis 500 speedway. I watch him going by in the laps. If he gets a flat or hits the wall I'm going on my coffee break. LOL :) :) But with only 6 months since BD I know we're only at lap 37...... :o
-
Hi everyone. I have these very issues on my mind also...
My husband is clearly in even more of a depression now that he has moved out of ow/friends...
I have thought several times he was hitting rock bottom...only for him to carry on to something else...
he wants a divorce, wants to be alone, have his own place...
works his butt off to only pay for everything for me and the girls...he has nothing...
Is it wrong for me to ask...when he will see the WHOLE sitch for what is CAUSING him to have NOTHING??? I ask myself ALL of the time and then just keep plugging forward...
it is so obvious, and he doesnt see it. I dont think he is facing anything yet, maybe starting to touch on it.
the whole thing just keeps spinning...over and over...I just back away...
oh well...not an answer, just wanted to show that we all think this at times...:)
hugs,
L
-
What makes them hit bottom though? I mean what if they just stay in the tunnel with no forward movement? My H (timewise) should still be in replay, but he is not really monster-ish anymore (well we have very little contact - absolutely NO social contact). Also he seems perfectly satisfied in OW relationship. What would make OW relationship start to unravel? Because frankly my H was so TERRIFIED of being "alone" that I don't imagine him ever leaving her...
And can someone remind me about limbo? What it is and when it is likely to occur, if it does? Thanks !
S & D
Thought I would "pinch hit" for DGU.
Here is an exerpt from the Article on "Limbo"
"He has now gotten to know the alienator and realizes this will not be a permanent relationship--consciously or unconsciously. He is on the path toward Liminality; but he is not yet there. Liminality is the stage of deepest Depression and Hopelessness. No one wants to go there. He avoids Liminality and seeks Replay. But at this stage of Replay, the addiction may not be as powerful. This is Limbo.
You MLCer may remain with the alienator and insist he is happy or there is no longer an alienator and he insists he is happy; or he denies unhappiness. There are even those who admit unhappiness. But for all these differences, they continue to insist your marriage is over. Some express regret and wish it were not so. They are not at rock bottom, but he seems more depressed than before. He is near the Ledge--the boundary between Replay and Liminal Depression."
Limitless
-
thanks Limitless! ;D
-
Just wanted to add this piece from the Limbo article that Limitless referenced.
"The difficulty is that Limbo is a place where progress is indetectable. The growth is beneath the soil."
-
In regards to finding out the length of time they take... it's very similar to our own "growing up" stage. Somethings that my parents or relatives were teaching me when I was a lot younger are only starting to make sense due to what life threw at me. Some of it came sooner, and some came only recently. Take for example a simple advise regarding money, "Save some for a rainy day..." when I was younger (high school/college), I spent it on things and didn't save... "shoes", "clothes", "records"(well during my day it was vinyl records and cassette), "eating out instead of brown bagging", and so on. The only time I started admitting to myself that my parents were right was when my ex was pregnant with my son, and she was on maternity leave. I needed to find a second job to keep up with the bills. It may not be considered "Rock Bottom" compared to our situations here but it still made me think that "I should have saved for a rainy day".
I'd like to know if you guys also experienced what I experienced, regarding parental advise that only hit you years after it was given to you. What made you think about it?
Unfortunately depending on their "Upbringing", "Morals", or "Beliefs" it may take them longer or shorter to reach that "awakening".
-
Thank you Limitless! I know I should not focus on their R and try to see it as a symptom, but the longer it continues, the harder that is to do. Perhaps it would be easier if I knew that they were arguing or something. I have no idea about what goes on between them and so I am left with the assumption that he is happy with her. I wonder therefore how far H is from realising his R has no future. He seemed to be aware of it when they first moved in together, he made a comment about having more children "not in this R, but in the next one ???" Wish OW was a fly on the wall for that comment. But he probably does not even remember saying it.
Anyway, I have totally backed away. I figure me being "gone" should give her the "freedom" required to let her guard down - to let H uncover why it was she and her previous boyfriend (the one she cheated on with H) "no longer even talk anymore".
I still feel tearful when I think about how great the good years were...
-
S & D,
I'm going to give you some incite from what I have heard from MLC man at work.
The last 6 months - he has "insisted" that he is happy with OW.
Total mask of Replay and denial.
He now can't wait until he moves. He has a new place for Aug. 26th and he is counting the days.
So....they aren't happy even if they don't admit it.
Limitless
-
Thanks again L!!! I never thought I would be hoping H was NOT happy until OW came along. :-\
-
Don't know. Would love it if RCR or Stayed or HB or even Patience could give some insight into what liminality looks like and how you know they are actually moving through.
What I'm about to say may not satisfy anyone's questions; this is one area of the crisis that I don't have "pat" and ready answers for, as it deals with each individual on their own individual levels....as each PERSON is different each CRISIS is vastly different; what one will do, another will not....and this has everything to do with the differences in people as a whole.
The "underlying issue" has MANY issues, the aspects of these same issues, faces, and fears that are examined as the MLC'er goes along this journey. There is NEVER any one "underlying issue"; there are always multiple issues/aspects within each MLC'er to be faced, resolved, and healed; and all must be faced in FULL, completed in FULL, the crisis demands a completeness; not to mention something gets "burned" out within the MLC'er, and even that is unique and individual within each person.
I've said this before somewhere, I'm not versed well in the area of Liminality; as it combines the stages of Depression and Withdrawal, whereas I see both stages as separate though they may run in tandem, or even together. The "good" and "evil" that exists within EVERY person, is spoken of here; (the "evil" is the shadow person) and I see it as "crossing over" into the TRUE "opposite" within in order to experience ALL facets, aspects of one's personality in preparation for later "repackaging" into what that person will become at a later time.
From my own point of view, each person has all aspects of good and evil that exist within each one; when one goes through puberty, reaching the end of this phase, they "package" themselves into what they think will be a lifetime set of behaviors, personality, etc. At the onset of the Midlife Transition, that "package" falls apart at the seams, and they find themselves experiencing at first, the negative aspects of their personality; the 'opposite' behaviors you see...on the other hand, as deep and true Depression sets in later within the crisis that has resulted from their running away, or even still deep in Transition, they will literally go or "cross over" into the "shadow" of themselves for a time, and this is a battle only they can overcome.
Within this process of learning to know themselves, this is necessary as NOTHING can be hidden, overlooked, or even set aside in this aspect. They've literally "fallen apart" and must do this, in order to piece themselves back together at a later time. It's part of their journey to find themselves, and this involves facing the worst, in order to get to the best within, choices are faced and other decisions are made as these aspects within are sorted, examined, rearranged, and this takes TIME to complete within.
This particular deep area/aspect of Depression experienced within the crisis also sets them up; for hitting rock bottom; going as far as one can go, before beginning the journey out of the pit the MLC'er finds themselves in. Rock Bottom can be fought, but as long as it's fought, the journey becomes that much harder for the person fighting this downward spiral that must happen in order to open their eyes even more to themselves, and what they have becoming during this time in their journey.
This point of "bottoming out" may very well be where they finally begin to face the rest of their issues within themselves that were, up until that point, "set aside", but they can even continue to set aside one or more issues, even to the point of actually exiting the tunnel, going right on into the Settling Down Process, only to have that processing interrupted, given some time, by the issue or issues they are STILL attempting to run from and not face. This results in another crisis, though related to the initial bout, it won't be the same exact one, as it will only deal with the issue/issues that were 'set aside' within the initial crisis. All other decisions will have been made, and all other issues will have been resolved, settled, and some healing will have occurred; but this wouldn't finish until ALL and EVERYTHING has been completed within the MLC'er.
Unfortunately, I have not seen a case like mine; what I have seen has involved the fact the MLC'er didn't exit at all; having "bargained" their way into this with a LBS who was so happy to have them return, they never realized the MLC'er wasn't finished, and still had a long way to go....there was one such case that appeared on the board, and people mistakenly thought the couple were "done"....and I pointed out they weren't done, because I saw it clearly.
I could write more on that aspect, but I will stop right there, it's an aspect I've covered before.
Yet, I know, this STILL doesn't even explain HOW they begin to face themselves; and I can't even explain how, I just know they do; and some things only God knows, and since the "HOW" is really not that important; just so they DO, that's really ALL that matters; this is one aspect left in His hands...NO ONE knows the whole mind of God; not even me. I think if people knew "how" they would be trying to manipulate the situation to their own ends, and that is why that one aspect is left unanswered, even for me....all I really know is that God has all things within His control, and though He would let me know my husband was facing/processing within, at various times, I never really knew how he was brought to that point within himself; and there were never any "clear signs" that told me anything; one cannot see the "inside" of another's heart and mind.....I could only speculate/guess, based on what my Intuition said to me at various times.
My husband's attitude changed positively toward me, as he really began attempting to face his issues, this became better, though he was exhausted at times, but there were other times, I thought that I'd been seeing things, as he would swing back and forth like a pendulum, from one extreme to the other; and I could NOT see on the outside what was reflected on the inside......I just knew he was coming forward slowly; again, this was based on my INTUITION; NOT from anything "outward" that I could really see.
I was also made aware of the battle within himself, instructed to pray; and simply told to leave him alone with his thoughts...let him go to do whatever he needed to do when he needed to do it; nothing further was necessary or even required of me...I was there when/if he needed to talk, but if he didn't wish to, I didn't push him.......just kept working on me, living my life, and left him alone, just as I'd been instructed to do.
You can't just walk up to them, and tell them they have issues to face; they'd run that much faster away, not to mention they'd laugh in your face, or get extremely angry about it.......I'd like to say their processing/facing is mostly subconscious but I can't even say that, because I really don't KNOW, and I don't think anyone else knows for sure, either...this is one aspect that's shrouded in mystery; again, based on the individual and the issues within.
Once the bottom is hit; they may sit there awhile looking up from the bottom of the "well" or "pit" they have fallen into. While in there, they can contemplate their lives, make a few important decisions within, and decide to start making the climb out, or, as it's been done before, conclude there's no use, they just can't take any more of the pain within, and actually go on to end their lives, committing the ultimate selfish act; leaving behind in a permanent way, the ones that were left behind in the beginning.
One can always hope this particular aspect doesn't happen; as there is always hope as long as one is living and breathing, and the MLC'er must see this for themselves; as they continue the struggle within.
There's more to it than that, as it involves growing, changing, and in that process becoming what God means for a person to become, due to learning the Life's Lessons and all this learning entails, as the MLC'er really is set to, and is supposed to learn the SAME lessons as the LBS is supposed to learn.
There is NO real set process for this learning; it is geared to the individual person, just like the LBS journey is geared in the same way....for the INDIVIDUAL. Considering the MLC'er is unstable, because of various emotional changes within; and has experienced a 'return' to childhood to start again, there are really no "12 step" programs they follow; they simply make one mistake after another, and through these mistakes, consequences follow close behind, or even at a later time, depending on where they are
Now, if you even knew HOW MLC'ers begin to face their issues, or even when they begin...would it make this go any faster? No, of course not; no one, but the individual themselves has any control over when, or how they begin facing. Even the Lord, who works with each MLC'er on an individual basis, will let them go to do their absolute worst, just as He teaches us these same things through the walking of our separate journeys as again, individuals.
All I can really tell you is that each MLC'er begins a true and deeper facing when THEY are ready and not before.
There are some issues faced in Replay; others are faced later in the crisis, none of the issues are faced in any real semblance of order that I even know about. It's not uncommon to skip over some, or set aside several to be looked at later, depending upon the painful aspects contained within each issue that faces them.
From my memories of Transition; the Lord brought my issues to me; one at a time, but not until I was in a place of "readiness" to begin to look at them. Like the ones who had gone before me, I heard the confusing chorus of "voices" within, that were the children of my own issues; and I will not go into here what had caused these, it's sufficient to say that I had a great many wounds to heal within myself from my childhood and my marriage.
I had forgotten all I had learned before; it was like my mind had been "wiped" out completely in various aspects, and was a blank slate to be rewritten upon again, only in a different way this time, and I found myself in a time before I ever met my husband, although my "core" knew and retained the memories that were important; such as my values, my beliefs, my morals; and "shades" of my life as it had been, and whom I had shared it with.
I had one foot in the past childhood, one foot in the past adulthood, and my current life was "on hold" for me to return into at a later time, but even this wasn't that important to me; what seemed to be important was getting out of the place I had found myself in, getting away from what I was feeling/experiencing in the way of deep emotional pain and heavy confusion. I did NOT want to be where I was; and I desperately searched for a way out.
I can remember having two thoughts, one was the only way was to go through, the other was in order to get out, I had to face, resolve, put to rest, and heal, everything I saw. The main motivation for this, was the intense pain I felt within and the literal burning I experienced.
I somehow "knew" that I needed to go forward, but the pain seemed to get worse, and this is where the strength of people is tried sorely; I know my own strength was tested to its absolute limit and beyond.
These two thoughts never went away no matter what I did, said, ranted, spewed or even tried to shut it all out of my mind. I had NO peace at all. I was pestered from the time I got up, til the time I went to sleep, and even then, my sleep was disturbed, as I was awakened by fear during the night.
It's a tough existence to endure, even for the strongest person, and I don't claim to be that strong within myself.
All I can really tell you is that God worked within me; helping me forward when I needed Him the most, and I allowed Him to give me this help, as He did NOT force me to do anything I didn't wish to do. This is the same with ALL people, not just "exclusive" to me.
He will work within people's heart in response to prayer; as again, what is within the heart, the mind will usually follow; but He will NOT force, coerce, or otherwise make people do what's right. There are consequences that are designed to help turn people away from what are wrong actions, but the best way people learn anything is by making these mistakes, and suffering these consequences of their actions; by reaping directly what they sow.
God WILL allow them to go that far....His ways, nor His thoughts come anywhere close to ours. Often we don't understand why something happens the way it does, we only know that God has the whole picture, we don't...and therefore, it would behoove us to trust Him with what's ahead; EVEN as we listen to our Intuition; and carry out its instructions; ALL the while, walking our own journey to wholeness and healing.
He was the only one I recognized clearly during that time; but He also used our son during various other times, and only when I was receptive to what was being said to me. My husband didn't know what to do; he really didn't understand, and in my moments of clarity and I DID have them, I would explain what was happening; that I was going through The Change, and needed space and time; but he was still battling within himself; and therefore, he wouldn't leave me alone, as he did to me what I had once done to him....and this was pressure me, try to force me to return to the person he knew and understood, and in fear of losing me, he grabbed onto me...this didn't help, as it was only triggering more and more anger within me.
It was the job I had that helped the most, even though I was alone for long periods of time, I had my space to work out all that was within me to work out.
I did have some awareness, even of what I was doing, when I was doing it.
For what it's worth, as each issue was worked out within, each child of my issues with was "reintegrated" back into my psyche, and each "voice" was quieted forever, the pain lessened within me, and my awareness grew more clear...but no one could do this for me, and no one could do it to me....I was the only one who could eventually heal and fix myself...even God with all of His help given to me during my Transition didn't interfere. He simply watched out over me, tossed in pieces of advice that actually came out of nowhere at times....just as He had done with my husband within his initial crisis, and even had done this same thing within my husband's secondary bout of crisis.
My husband would say at various times "Something told me......" and finish this sentence with whatever he'd heard in his head; and I would know the Lord had planted another seed for later growth within my husband's heart...as what is within the heart, the mind will usually follow.
Letting go and letting God really does have its merit; recognizing you don't have control over anyone but yourself; and learning that you can't make someone do what you would wish them to.
Right or wrong, this is THEIR journey, not yours...you have your own to make, that will change you in many ways, that is, if you'll let it happen within.
On the other hand, your journey is also important; as change that leads to growth, that in turn, leads to your own becoming of the person God meant for you to be, must also occur within you, and as long as you fight it and think you don't need it, you'll cycle in various ways that will lead you right back to the journey at hand.
On a personal note, I can see some things now that I'm in hindsight, but not others, as some questions I will never have answered; and I can live with that.
It is also sufficient for me to know that God's timing and planning was in many aspects, "tailor made" in this individual way, for both me and my husband. We are completely different individuals, so we required different handling in that one aspect....I didn't do the one thing I wanted to do the most, and that was RUN AWAY; which would have made all of this worse than it actually was.
The aspects universal to the crisis were opened up for my own understanding, some during my time in, and some in hindsight, so others could be helped through what I and others who've been this way before could provide.
Yet, people being what and who they are, and I was NO different at one point; the more questions answered, can bring forth MORE questions, and one must beware of the danger in constantly asking questions; it interferes with the journey at hand; and you'll find yourself stuck in seeking answers that will NEVER materialize in certain aspects of MLC, or receiving answers where you're attempting to "script" something that will make the crisis worse, because interference by the LBS, is NOT tolerated well at all by the MLC'er.
If this could be "scripted" to a good outcome, I can guarantee one of us would have given you the steps for this long before now. Honestly, I have looked at this from all angles; due the analytical nature within myself; and I have NEVER found anything that would "shortcut" the process, or shorten it, or anything that could have prevented it from happening, God has this one in HIS CONTROL.
There are no set number of ways one can approach the journey to be taken, but there is only ONE way to come through and finish this completely; and that is to face ALL issues and aspects in FULL, making the changes within, growing through the crisis in order to become what God means for one to be. This takes TIME, STRENGTH, and a WILLINGNESS to face oneself in FULL.....and again, it's geared to each INDIVIDUAL PERSON going through.
The above is true, regardless if it's the LBS or MLC'er facing this journey of a lifetime.
No one has any real choices here but to either follow the "rules" within the process as they've been laid down before many times, or don't participate at all, walking away, and having to face it all again later on, as the circle comes around back to the point of where it all started; the only difference could be, another person is in the picture, for either MLC'er or LBS, starting from the beginning again, OR the original couple goes back into it, picking up from where it got left off, from the place it was put on "hold" from a time before, and, either way, this next time, the journey is MORE difficult, taking longer to complete, as time IS added on, for the cycling done beforehand.
Also understand, there are SOME things, you'll find that you'll need to ask Him about directly, especially in regards to your own individual situations, and that's assuming He will answer; as no one will ever have ALL of the answers.
He's never answered everything I've ever asked...and you could spend your whole life asking questions, but that's time wasted when the journey still awaits the walking, and the crisis continues just as its set to run, until the process is finished, not finished, stuck in, or otherwise run from.
Whether this helps or not; some things I do know, need to be understood in regards to this journey, but as I also recall, as long as the basic aspects of the crisis are seen and understood, the rest will come at a later time, as the journey for the LBS is walked, as more comes in that aspect to be seen and understood, more to do with the marriage partners as individual people; not so much people within the crisis.
This last aspect is NOT something I can teach you; it is something you learn on your own WITHOUT my or anyone else's help; but you've got to walk forward to get to this point; I can't carry, drag, or otherwise bulldoze you into that aspect; it's up to YOU after all of the tools are provided, and the explanations have been given.
There does come a time when the individual walks alone, with only their Intuition as guidance, but by then, you should know that some things will need to be thought out within yourself. Learn to trust your Intuition, it will let you know if you're off on a wrong train of thought......take it from one who knows, and has been there. :)
Love to all,
HB
-
I am posting on this thread (thank you loveisntweakness) because after re-reading the articles on Liminality, I've had some possible insights on my friend's situation.
This is one part of the article that stuck out for me
"Liminality forces him to face his shadow and he may have realized the devastation he has caused around him and fear there is no return."
My friend's ex-wife has divorced the other man. Several months ago, she told my friend she regrets what she has done over the past few years. She talks about the damage she knows she has done. She has told him she wonders at times about a return to him, but isn't sure it would work (see below).
This is from the Back Forward Limbo article
They see our hope and feel burdened and pressured and they are not yet ready and not certain that it will work. They feel it is better to not risk it; it is only much later that they either learn or admit their error and have the courage to rebuild.
After the divorce to other man, she started seeing another guy, which dissipated fairly quickly (3-4 months). She has maintained consistent contact with my friend. So why did she start another relationship?
I read this in the Liminality article.
"This is the place he has been avoiding through out this crisis and thus there is a likelihood that he will hang on the chasm's ledge and try not to fall." and "It is no wonder they cycle by running back to Replay behaviour."
Hindsight is the only way of knowing for certain.....so we'll see how it plays out. However, I am wondering if we are almost actively watching his ex-wife trying to "hang on the chasm's ledge" and trying not to fall into Liminality. Interesting.
-
LIW
I just wanted to say thank you for starting this thread.
I believe the articles on here about Liminality give a good description of what to see and expect (withdrawal being one of the key behaviours), yet there is always still more to learn from 'real' situations.
CrazyStuff
-
S & D,
I'm going to give you some incite from what I have heard from MLC man at work.
The last 6 months - he has "insisted" that he is happy with OW.
Total mask of Replay and denial.
He now can't wait until he moves. He has a new place for Aug. 26th and he is counting the days.
So....they aren't happy even if they don't admit it.
Limitless
Thanks Limitless, My H also says he is happy with OW and his life the way it is. ::) It's really hard to think that he isn't.
Modified to add..
HB, Thank you so much for that great post!