Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: LisaLives on December 26, 2011, 01:12:35 PM
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I have been too busy to post, but have wanted to update my thread, though I start frequently, I find it hard to figure out what's important at this point of my journey, so I never finish. I still lurk on many threads, though, and followed writingmom with interest when she reappeared.
HB has advised her that by remarrying, her husband has closed the door on reconciliation forever and that she should stand down and move on. I think, in summary, but is that interpretation right? Do others think that? There is a baby complicating this situation, but when is the door closed and how do you know? Buggy's H has a baby but not a marriage, is that different?
My H stated his intention to marry on BD and never wavered, and I took him for that word. That was part of my never classifying myself a stander, though I can't say that when I chose not to stand, I was firm in that conviction or that it was easy to let go... I am still not there yet...
What do others think? Will you stand through a marriage, a baby, a huge court battle? Do you know, and how would you advise others? Just curious, I was a little shocked and confused, and was wondering if something on the forum had changed--I never thought I would see that advice, and certainly not from HB. I have not read all WM's post, but her H does not seem to be the worst of the lot... But maybe I missed something important by not being here regularly, so I thought I would ask. Thanks for considering, Lisa
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Hi Lisa
Good questions.
I always thought that standing was a personal choice. That while we listened to and took advice from others, that ultimately, it was our decision when our stand was over or not.
These are our individual journeys, and these are our personal choices to make.
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Here's RCR's blog that touches on this subject.
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?paged=30
As many are aware, a very good friend of mine had his MLCer ex-wife marry the alienator. The marriage to the alienator lasted 18 months. She started expressing regrets to my friend for leaving their marriage several months ago, and that picked up again in the past few weeks. It is currently between 3.5 and 4 years since bomb drop.
His ex-wife's marriage to the alienator did not end his stand, nor would I personally advise anyone that it necessarily should if they want to continue their stand. It is not for me to say what should end someone else's stand, or if anything should.
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Hey LL,
Good to have you back! I think HB has always said that it was wrong to stand when the ex had married someone else, because then it is as if you become the adulterer (or something to that effect). I can't recall seeing her post that directly to someone recently but I know that her position is that once the ex has remarried then nothing should be done to disrupt that marriage or hope for its demise. I guess it depends upon your convictions as to whether or not your ex remarrying should affect your stand. I'm Catholic, as are many on here, and in our faith even if the person legally divorces us and remarries another the church still recognizes us as married. So, barring an annulment, there is no earthly end to a marriage that was recognized by the church. I hope I never get to that point but I don't know what I would do if my W were to remarry. I'd likely seek an annulment and move on as the pain would be unbearable to stand in that case (not that it isn't already).
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Hi Lisa ~ I have heard of some stories when the MLCer married OW and then divorced and wanted to get back
with their wife. Rejoice Ministries also has some stories on that. The chances of that 2nd marriage lasting is very slim from everything that I have read. To me, if I were in that position and I wanted to stand, I would. I wouldn't take that as the end.
NB
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Lisa,
If I may chime in, I believe that Standing is a personal choice and that none of us knows the outcome our MLCer will have, marriage, baby, OW, or not.
I wasn't sure if I considered myself a true "Stander" or not. I waffled a lot in the last 2 1/2 years since BD only to realize that yes, in my mind I was Standing for our marriage.
I do not recognize their marriage as being legit. It is based on lies and deceit and betrayal. The court may recognize it, but I do not. My faith and my moral beliefs will not allow me to embrace this "union" as anything more than two lunatics playing house.
I believe that reconciliation is possible when remarriage has occurred and I do not see a remarriage like this as being a respectable institution that should be honored. There is no sanctitiy in OW's remarriage to H. I will not respect it.
I do not want to stir their pot or have an affair. I simply want it to combust on its own as I'm certain it will. But I do NOT recognize it as anything more than a joke.
All this being said, I think HB's assessment of my sitch was prayerful and personal. I know that her faith is strong and that she does not enter in to these discussions lightly. I would not assume that it is blanket advice. My H has been in 5th gear since BD, wasting no time in filing, having a baby, getting a D and getting remarried. He is high energy and has never waned from that. He's done it all to the extreme.
He is still in Replay and choosing to believe the lies that she's fed him. The extenuating circumstances make it difficult to think that he will want to or be able to return. But please don't let this get in the way of your personal choice to Stand.
I have come to believe that perhaps HB is right, painful as it is to consider. But my H is not your H. As we know, there is no one pattern or equation that we all can follow. The end is a mystery. Some will have happier endings than others.
Just look deep within yourself for the real truth. We can suggest and encourage and talk out loud on here, but this is your life. Please don't be swayed by this instance as again, this is an H on Red Bull x 1000.
Best of luck.
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I do not recognize their marriage as being legit. It is based on lies and deceit and betrayal. The court may recognize it, but I do not. My faith and my moral beliefs will not allow me to embrace this "union" as anything more than two lunatics playing house.
There is no sanctitiy in OW's remarriage to H. I will not respect it.
I do NOT recognize it as anything more than a joke.
Writingmom - it reminds me of a conversation that I had with my H a couple of months ago.
H - 'We're SEPARATED Kikki' (one of his favourite sayings, although I haven't heard it for a few months)
Me - If you call running away and abandoning your wife and kids, and moving in with a woman that you barely know, a separation - well so be it. But, that's not a separation, that's ABANDONMENT.
H - Well, what I'm doing isn't illegal or anything.
Me - Just because it's not illegal, doesn't mean that it is okay. The damage you are doing to your children is legal, but it is appalling.
I agree - these remarriages may be 'legal', but they are nothing more than a farce.
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My stand will end when Jesus takes me home. A remarriage is not a "marriage" in God's eyes. It is legalized adultery as the Bible tells us that a woman is bound to her husband until death(her first covenant husband, not a second, third, fourth) Why can people not recognize this for what it is? Because the Lord's way is the narrow way. Because the Lord's way is not easy!!!!!. A covenant vow is the one recognized by God. How can one make a second life-long vow when the FIRST one is still in effect? A civil divorce carries no weight with the Lord Almighty. Neither does the legalized adultery that even churches now call remarriage. Churches preach what our itching ears want to hear to keep congregants and to not lose money in the offering plate. And Jesus will say, "I never knew you."
I love HB and know she is a true woman of faith, but I disagree with her if this is truly her stance on this topic. Her stance is just not Biblical and believe me, I have studied these scriptures for 4 years. God does not recognize remarriage as the world does. In fact, his Word forbids it. God always wants restoration of the covenant marriage. Even if abuse, adultery, or any other sin has been committed, our Lord is a God of reconciliation. One may need to separate for a time in order for God to work(or to protect yourself or your children), but one is to remain single if that happens. The Bible is very clear. Most people just refuse to follow it.
For those who want more reading on this, I encourage you to go to the Rejoice Marriage Ministries site. And, read the Word of God as his Word does not lie.
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I spend Christmas Day, with my friend and her family.
Her monther now well into her 80s is a LBS (they have never divorced, therefore still legally married)
Her H left her for ow 40 years ago. He told his wife to wait for him, he will get rid of ow and come home. He went of vacation with his wife, when ow went to visit her family abroad. He always told her, that she was the only one he loved. But yet he stayed with ow.
Ow became pregnant and had a baby. When the baby was 6months old, he told his wife he wants to come home. His wife told him, that she will raise his child and that she wants him back. He leaves right away, but changes his mind and stays with ow.
For the past 40 years he visits his wife 5 days a week. In the evening he goes to ow. The holidays he spends with ow.
15 years ago, was the last time he asked to go home. That time she told him that she does not want him back , she had gotten used to live alone.
The old man continues to visit. OW is aware that he still goes sees his wife.
Now the LBS thinks, if the old man dies one day while with ow, ow will not call the lbs.
If something happens to the old man while with the lbs, the ow will not be contacted.
The child with the ow is around 40, and has never met his 3 siblings with the lbs.
My XH married his ow this past August.
from what he has said about her, no one would have believed he would marry her.
I do not consider myself a stander, because xh seems too lost to ever find his way out.
If by chance he does get a glimpse out of the fog, I am sure he will run back down the tunnel because the reality will be way too harsh for him to confront.
By the way, he has not admitted to marrying her.
At this point of his journey. He has been unemployed for one year. Living in the USA, He has no friends, or family except ow, who recently got her green card. (perhpas he married her to be able to stay in the US)
He cannot come back to Canada, because we are divorced, his children do not talk to him, and he only has perhpas one friend left. He cannot go back to Europe, because the ecoomic situation is worse than where he is.
Everyone in Canada is in awe of what this man had, and threw away.
Everyday I think perhpas xh is so confused he believes he is happy.
Everyone that knows him thinks he has lost his mind.
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From WritingMom:
All this being said, I think HB's assessment of my sitch was prayerful and personal. I know that her faith is strong and that she does not enter in to these discussions lightly. I would not assume that it is blanket advice.
I have been reading Writingmom's thread and would agree with her assessment above. I do think HB was discussing circumstances specific to WM. That being said, this continues to be such a heartwrenching discussion and can create added stress and pain for an LBS standing for years while H moves on entirely. We can debate it from legal, moral and religious foundations, but in the end I hope we can open our minds and hearts to supporting the LBS in whatever decision they ultimately are forced into by the actions and decisions of their spouse. I understand a covenant marriage, but I do not believe that God expects the LBS to suffer endlessly or to not live their life to the fullest, and even covenant marriages can be annulled or ended for cause. For example, some US states have covenant marriage laws that state:
What are the grounds for a covenant marriage divorce?
• The other spouse has committed adultery.
• The other spouse has committed a felony and has been sentenced to death or
imprisonment at hard labor.
• The other spouse has abandoned the matrimonial domicile for a period of one year
and constantly refuses to return.
• The other spouse has physically or sexually abused the spouse seeking the divorce
or a child of one of the spouses.
• The spouses have been living separate and apart continuously without
reconciliation for a period of two years.
• The spouses have been living separate and apart continuously without
reconciliation for a period of one year from the date of the judgment of separation
from bed and board was signed.
• If there is a minor child or children of the marriage, the spouses have been living
separate and apart continuously without reconciliation for a period of one year and
six months from the date the judgment of separation from bed and board was
signed; however, if abuse of a child of the marriage or a child of one of the
spouses is the basis for which the judgment of separation from bed and board was
obtained, then a judgment of divorce may be obtained if the spouses have been
living separate and apart continuously without reconciliation for a period of one
year from the date the judgment of separation from bed and board was signed.
Instead of an immediate divorce, a separation from bed and board may be
obtained. The grounds for a judgment of separation from bed and board are
(same as above).
While this may be a legal interpretation of covenant marriage, I understand that the religious perspective may be different. But it does seem that even clergy people who are very much in support of covenant marriages, do draw a line at some point in terms of understanding that there are circumstances beyond a spouses control that make a covenant marriage impossible as it requires both a man and a woman.
I am not advocating divorce or in any way diminishing covenant marriage, or suggesting anyone not stand, but I do hope we can be compassionate here. Yes, this is a forum for Standers, but even RCR does not make the blanket statement that standing is the right choice for everyone and in every circumstance. She understands that an MCL spouse may move on, remarry, have more children, etc. and that an LBS has a right to make the best decisions for her/his own mental and physical wellbeing, financial security, physical safety, and the security and wellbeing of children.
The bottom line is that none of us can know or predict the way our life may go and we do the best to navigate it, be true to our vows, our spouses, and our children, but sometimes standing changing nothing in terms of our MLC spouse. Some never progress or exit the tunnel.
Our lives are precious gifts meant to be used and lived fully. If one can do that while standing and feels it is in their best interest and the best interest of their children regardless of how far removed the MLC spouse is, then that is the LBS's prerogative. If, on the other hand, the MLC spouse is so far gone, moved on, abandoned, started over without looking back, it may not be in the best interest--even in the name of religion--to put one's life and gifts on hold.
Some people are able to live full, whole lives while standing indefinitely no matter how much their MLC spouse has moved on, and others cannot. I hope we can remain compassionate and supportive of both paths as neither was chosen by the LBS. Even if an LBS is the one to initiate divorce, it was still forced on them by the circumstances of MLC and they may have no choice for their own survival or that of their children. This still does not close the door on reconciliation at some point down the road, even years into the future.
Peace and healing to all,
Phoenix
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Dollard, your friend's mom's H has to be the most extreme case of a cake eater ever! It seems like that poor woman allowed herself to be used for 40 years and was never able/allowed to move on - whether single or remarried. :(
I believe the Bible says we are released from the covenant of marriage for two reasons. Adultery and abandonment. If our non-believing spouse chooses to leave us, we are free from that covenant. My H is in the process of divorcing me, and while he claims to be a Christian, no one who seeks to obey and glorify God could behave like he is. Not only cheating and lying, but the deliberate, calculated way he has set out to financially destroy me (and therefore my kids). I can no longer consider myself a stander because like Dollard, my H is SO lost and keep spiraling further and further downward. I've had to unfortunately adjust my thinking from fighting for my marriage to protecting myself and, more importantly, my kids.
I agree, everyone must decide for themselves how long they can stand and I would never judge anyone. If I had found this site earlier and handled my H's MLC differently, maybe I could have helped our situation...I don't know. If by some miracle my H came to me tomorrow in complete repentence, I'm not sure what I would do either. I spent two years believing that would happen, but I no longer do. It's hard to stand, and it's hard to give up the stand.
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Hello all,
Just my personal take on this issue. I intend to stand for as long as God gives me the grace to do so. I do not yet know if my H has become involved with an OW but if he does, I feel certain a divorce, remarriage and child would result from it. My H has not only abandoned me to a certain degree, but has also abandoned his faith. He is now convinced it's more than appropriate for one to pursue happiness at all costs. This is what's causing me my greatest despair. If my H now feels there is no greater good than obtaining whatever you want whenever you want it, then truth and commitment have no room in this new mindset, and his downward spiral will continue to depths I can't imagine. And if I'm already as weak as I am, how can a desire to stand survive all that? I have no idea. I just know that if it does survive it won't be in my own strength, it will have to be totally God.
:)
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Wed,
Turning their backs on their faith is very common in MLC, it is something else they are running from. My H's faith used to be very important to him and was the core of who he was. It is not now. Hopefully they will return back to it post MLC. I do know that if he does return to it, he will have an extremely hard time with the decisions he has made while in MLC. That search for "happiness" is the desparate attempt to make the pain they are experiencing go away.
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I'm going to reply here, but much of this is from WritingMom's storythread. I just feel that as a general topic this may be a better place for my reply.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1935.0;all (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1935.0;all)
The whole purpose of this board is to Stand. I have wrestled with that too, off and on since Bomb Drop but have found that deep within my soul, I've thought he's coming back; and from that little, quiet dark place was born hope. And that hope has continued to grow.
And now, you [HeartsBlessing] say it needs to die. :'(
The purpose of this board is to support those who need it in Standing and going through their spouse’s midlife crisis and infidelity. Standing is not a requirement, but because so many other boards out there are not supportive of Standing, I created this community as a special place of safety for Standing. But most Standers will probably choose to Stand down someday. We have Covenant Keepers here too, but this is not a board strictly for that group who Stands forever.
The boards purpose is the support your decision.
HeartsBlessing pointed out that we disagree regarding Standing after an MLCer marries an alienator.
And all I could tell you is what He was telling me; and more follows here:
What follows is a dose of reality; and food for thought. Understand I am PRO Marriage; but I also know there is a limit on what I can say to keep hope alive, especially in the event of the remarriage of a MLC'er to his affair partner.
Now, I WILL say that RCR holds a whole different point of view than I do on this aspect; but I've never seen a MLC spouse that moved ON and married the affair partner return to the LBS...there really IS a point of no return in this particular aspect. Most especially when a CHILD has been introduced into the mix.
Yes and No about disagreeing. But let me add--I'm adding this after writing the entire post--that I think HeartsBlessing gives her responses only with careful consideration and kindness and I take nothing she says lightly. She is comepltely honest, honorable, empathetic and compssionalte in everything she says.
I believe Standing is the decision of the abandoned spouse and not mine or anyone else’s. So I’ve read and coached a few situations where I don’t think the person should Stand, but as I read the threads of some later they are still Standing and it is still my job to support them in their choices. So in that way it’s not me encouraging Standing but supporting it.
I do not believe that marrying the alienator must end a person’s Stand. I think it may reduce the odds of reconciliation and that reduction may be even greater when a baby is involved. I also agree that remarrying may slow progress and this is even slower when there is a baby. So discard timelines. I also think the odds that the betrayed spouse will continue to Stand through this are low and thus reconciliations will be extremely rare.
But the poor odds about the success of the invalid marriage remain—and those odds may be even worse when a baby is involved.
There’s a lot of intuition involved in Standing and sometimes we have opposing intuitions when it comes to specific situations. HeartsBlessing said that she was telling you what He was telling her. Was that divine communication in general about situations where the MLCer marries the alienator or about your situation?
Then you have found that deep within my soul, I've thought he's coming back; and from that little, quiet dark place was born hope. That is an intuition that seems to be the opposite of HeartsBlessing’s. Now if hers was generalized, I do believe exceptions are allowed since though rare, some who marry the alienator do divorce and remarry their original spouse.
Now I do have a caveat for your intuition. Was it an intuition or wishful thinking? I think that when we are experiencing great trauma we often have energy blockages to our intuitive source. Sometimes the trauma may kick a source open, but sometimes it may do the opposite. You want something very badly, so badly that you may twist what you hear through that source.
When I had my main Knowing it did not tell me directly Sweetheart would come home and we would reconcile and live happily ever after. There were no words. I had to interpret the Knowing and explain it verbally to understand it and to share it. But it was simply a series of calming waves washing over my body. But it was so intense that I knew it was beyond me. The message was basically that everything would be fine—I would be fine. But within that I knew (I interpreted) that Sweetheart and I would get through the crisis together.
I don’t think there is a point of no return. I think there are points of probably no return, but that probably leaves room for a different path.
Whether to extinguish your flame of Hope or not is your choice. What do you want and what do you feel? It’s time for more prayer and meditation. God is not going to grant your requests just because you ask for them—where’s my pony? Pony? Where’s my pregnancy and baby? God will grant you what you need in this life to learn and experience all that you are meant to take with you. Some of those things He grants are hardships; all are blessings even when we do not feel blessed.
Right now you feel that believing there is no Hope will shatter you. God will guide you through this and if you embrace His guidance you will embrace and accept each step and revelation that you need to when you can. God won’t rush you. Sometimes it may feel rushed because He knows you are ready for what is coming. Trust Him.
In the beginning and at other times I asked or recommended to Sweetheart that instead of making a final decision about Us, that he instead put our marriage on a shelf and work on himself. I assured him I would be there when he took it down. Do that for your Stand. Sometimes reconciliation happens to those who no longer want it. The abandoned spouse moves on, maybe dates, and has absolutely no interest in their (former) spouse. But something changes. Their spouse progresses, changes and expresses remorse and the betrayed spouse sees a new person—maybe the old person but someone different from the abandoner. The betrayed spouse thought the door was shut—possibly slammed shut, locked and triple bolted. But her or she has the keys; she can choose to open the door. Take your Hope and Your Stand and store them together in a protected back corner and let them go. Surrender them to what happens. And if something happens, if he divorces and approaches you again, your Sand and Hope will be there for you and you can take them off the shelf and activate them again.
WritingMom, yours is one of the situation I do not even have to review to recall some of the details. I cannot say whether he will divorce the alienator; I can only say the chances are high it will someday (when?) end in divorce. And at that point I cannot say if he will be interested in approaching you. He may want to and be too scared and certain you will reject him, or he may not think of it, or he may think about it and act. But this marriage is doomed not simply because marriages where they have a baby first have a higher rate of failure and not because marriages that begin as infidelity have a higher rate of failure. This marriage is doomed because of who and what the alienator is. Recall her own history. We all know that MLCers Affair Down. Some Affairs Down are general, the context of infidelity and in-fatuation brings to the surface some acts of desperation and personality disorder attributes. Then there are those Affairs Down that are specific; the alienator is not reacting that way because of the context but this is his or her typical manner of being. BPDers, HPDers and NPDers are natural Affair Down alienators. The alienator in your situation has a history of infidelity. She was also married; so two marriages were destroyed. She had cheated before in her marriage. She got pregnant by a previous affair partner and placed that child for adoption and returned to her marriage. Her history places her as a specific Affair Down alienator. I don’t whether she has a personality disorder or not, but her history is clear about her patterns.
What do others think? Will you stand through a marriage, a baby, a huge court battle? Do you know, and how would you advise others?
My experience is very little with this, but there is a little experience. The first time Sweetheart left the alienator she faked a pregnancy. It was obvious she was faking to everyone but Sweetheart and given his position in the situation I completely understood and there was a tiny probability that she could have been pregnant. So what if she was? What if she was pregnant and did not miscarry? What if Sweetheart now was a father? I told him it did not change my decision. I told him I would support his decision regarding a child and if he wanted I would help him fight for custody and raise the child with him, but I would also support him if his decision were to place the child for adoption. I did tell him that I felt the alienator was less fit for parenting than we were and I thus hoped we would have custody if the child were not placed for adoption.
She conveniently miscarried within a few weeks. I do not know how my emotions would have reeled. I don’t know how it would be taking care and mothering—even if only on visitations—her child because though I love children I would have to have continuing contact with her. And regarding the affair, how would that have played out since No Contact would no longer be a possibility? And would Sweetheart have taken our divorce farther since he now had a child with her? Would he have felt he had to marry her? Maybe? I have no doubt it would have ended in divorce, but in how long?
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I cannot say whether he will divorce the alienator; I can only say the chances are high it will someday (when?) end in divorce.
I have a friend whose H went into MLC 6years ago. They have been divorced 5 years. H married the OW when she was pregnant. This marriage is now seriously in trouble.
My friend said that he never learnt his lessons and now he is repeating them. Will they survive? Who knows? But sadly there is another child besides his first two who stands a high chance of being caught in another scenario of abandonment :(
xx
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God is not going to grant your requests just because you ask for them—where’s my pony? Pony? Where’s my pregnancy and baby? God will grant you what you need in this life to learn and experience all that you are meant to take with you. Some of those things He grants are hardships; all are blessings even when we do not feel blessed.
Thank you for this. It's something that I've been needing to hear and to focus on.
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This subject has touched a raw nerve for many of us, I am sure!
It helped me spiral down yesterday.
Although I am not familiar with the legal aspects of a 'covenant' marriage and this 'type' of marriage is not recognized as far as I know here in Brazil - deep down, I know I married for life in the Biblical sense of a covenant. So, probably, I could classify myself as a covenant wife.
That being established, I will stand for my marriage forever, whether he marries OW or not. So, no, marrying OW and having a child with her does not end my stand.
Only death will release me. I face never being in a marriage relationship again, I am not comfortable with that, I rebel against that idea everyday, however it is what I feel God wants of me. I desire to be in the center of His will.
What I need to do is come to a calm acceptance and not be bitter about my status.
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Whenever someone "hears" something that they "think" is of the Lord it must be tested by finding scripture to back it up. If the words fail the test against the Word of God they are not to be trusted.
God does NOT recognize an adulterous marriage. I also studied this for a few years now. You have to go back into the Concordia and look at the original Greek text. The new translations of the Bible have messed up a lot of the marriage scriptures.
There are people who have studied this topic very extensively here is one site . . . .
http://www.cadz.net/
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I believe Standing is the decision of the abandoned spouse and not mine or anyone else’s.
I am part of this forum because I did not want to end my marriage. Everyone was telling me to cut my losses and move on. That was two years ago. I too feel that the main element is that the final decision to stand is the choice of the abandoned spouse. However, if I ask for advice from a member, I must be willing to read something I may not accept.
We all have out limits. In my situation, if my wife were abusing the children, I would divorce. I never support a situation where physical or sexual abuse is occurring. If a member were to post such experiences, I would tell them to separate or do whatever is necessary to protect themselves.
HB writes:
unfortunately, your husband is WAY behind you; as he's still deep in Replay; and nowhere near his awakening, as yet; that's assuming he ever reaches it.
From that comment, I felt that HB was making the same statement that we all know: there are no promises. My wife may leave me tomorrow. A piano could land on my head. Just like a few souls that went west, the disappeared and never returned. One thing we have to accept is the possibility that our spouses may never come back.
I have been on this board for almost two years. If I get a divorce or she takes off, I would never come back and feel that the forum mislead me or gave me false hope. One of HB's first posts or pm's to me was that there were no guarantees in this process.
Writing Mom writes:
It does also hurt to think that H is still deep in Replay, HB. I really don't want to believe that! I HAVE come a long way, but still cannot mentally accept the end of "us." The longer he stays in Replay, the less hope I feel like I can hang on to. And the longer he stays in Replay, the further he seems from Awakening! To hear you say "if" as though he may not get there...no! I can't go there. I can't. Not yet.
This is where the issue becomes pertinent to the purpose of the board. When do you accept the cold facts? It is one thing to have hope and another to cling to a fantasy. Once we cross the land to fantasy then we are running away just like our MLCers. It becomes unhealthy and will stop our own journey in its tracks.
I even remember one question that we were to ask our MC, "When do you feel that the marriage can no longer be saved?" It is a good question. You don't want a therapist that advises divorce after one session, but you don't want one that drags and unhappy and unwilling couple through years of therapy knowing that there is no progress and never will be any progress.
From what I read, WritingMom may not want to believe it, but something has been stirring concerning the possibility. That feeling was in her heart. HB just brought it to light.
HB writes:
What follows is a dose of reality; and food for thought.
He is currently STILL deep in Replay; no where near his awakening; and this is assuming he ever reaches it. I'm not sure that he will...what follows will tell you why I suspect this.
We are each called upon to learn and accept the various possibilities of the crisis; I can NOT downplay what can happen; the Lord has never allowed me to show Hope without also showing what is possible.
Again, it is up to your ex-husband to move on through or not; but OW who is now his current wife is still a bandaid a symptom, rather than the whole problem, and he's still using her to avoid his issues. As long as he continues in this way; he will NOT move forward.
If there is no movement, then the process is stuck and WritingMom will eventually become just as stuck or she will have to end her stand. Once again, very difficult words to write-but they are honest words and I will always accept the brutal truth over warm and fuzzy lies. As much as I wish I could tell WritingMom that this is just a phase and he will come back to her, I could not do so without feeling that I would be misleading her too. Even if he does come back. OW and the child will always be in the picture.
HB writes:
This is ALL food for thought; take what you need, leave the rest. I will say no more on your situation, as He's has indicated there is nothing more to say at this point.
HB still makes it clear that this is the advice she has to give. She did not demand that WM quit her stand. She just painted an honest picture and write words that stirred emotions that were already in my friend's heart.
RCR writes:
God will grant you what you need in this life to learn and experience all that you are meant to take with you.
Just like HB, you are writing another truth. Once again, our spouses may not come back, but from the process of standing and paving the way, we experience a new life and a stronger commitment to ourselves and our families.
Now that I have rambled meaninglessly, my point is that will we are here to give advice to support those that choose to stand, we also should be honest in our opinions and feelings concerning our fellow LBSers.
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This is where the issue becomes pertinent to the purpose of the board. When do you accept the cold facts? It is one thing to have hope and another to cling to a fantasy. Once we cross the land to fantasy then we are running away just like our MLCers. It becomes unhealthy and will stop our own journey in its tracks.
I even remember one question that we were to ask our MC, "When do you feel that the marriage can no longer be saved?" It is a good question. You don't want a therapist that advises divorce after one session, but you don't want one that drags and unhappy and unwilling couple through years of therapy knowing that there is no progress and never will be any progress.
If there is no movement, then the process is stuck and WritingMom will eventually become just as stuck or she will have to end her stand. Once again, very difficult words to write-but they are honest words and I will always accept the brutal truth over warm and fuzzy lies. As much as I wish I could tell WritingMom that this is just a phase and he will come back to her, I could not do so without feeling that I would be misleading her too. Even if he does come back. OW and the child will always be in the picture.
You mention accepting the cold facts. I think one of the key things many of us actually have difficulty accepting is the MLC process. RCR has a very very good article on Acceptance, one that I have personally read dozens of times.
As far as advice from a marriage therapist, that's something that has been discussed a few times on the forum. Marriage therapy is of little value during the MLC.
No apparent movement does not necessarily mean the MLCer is stuck. Another of RCR's articles that is excellent is Back-Limbo-Forward. It discusses movement and progress of the MLCer.
So many of us have a bomb drop of two years ago or less. In one the articles, RCR describes two years as "the end of the beginning". Do we have difficulty with the truth behind the statement that midlife crisis takes time?
From RCR's post
"Take your Hope and Your Stand and store them together in a protected back corner and let them go. Surrender them to what happens. And if something happens, if he divorces and approaches you again, your Sand and Hope will be there for you and you can take them off the shelf and activate them again."
I think this is great wisdom.
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DGU, Most DO have difficulty accepting the time line of how long this truly takes.
I want to give all of you hope by sharing some things I have witnessed in my H over the last couple of months. Remember that my BD was almost 4 long years ago and H's divorce was final this past September.
My birthday was two weeks before Christmas. The past two birthdays, my H did not call, text, nor acknowledge my birthday in any way. This year, he came to my birthday dinner, verbally wished me a Happy Birthday, gave me a card, and a gift and did not leave our home that night until close to 11 pm. He also spent most of the weekend prior to my birthday with our family. We even attended a Christmas Festival that our D20's boyfriend was in and I felt led by God to grab his hand during the message and he gripped mine back tightly. We then went to dinner after with D20, her BF, and three other college friends (who do NOT know we are divorced). He was telling them about our college experiences and how he met his wife in college! :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
He spent Thanksgiving with us this year whereas last year, he was away climbing another mountain.
Christmas this year was extra special. Though H has spent all 4 Christmas Eves with us since BD, this year was different. He was so into the Christmas Eve service. He cried throughout the service - even as we were standing and singing the carols. He sobbed throughout the sermon. At the end, it is tradition at our church to sing Silent Night and our pastor told all of us to not let another day go by without telling those we care about that we love them. That directive was straight from God!!!! My H put his arm around me during the carol and held me to his chest. I was belting out the song as well as crying as I just totally felt God's presence over us at that moment and I know my H was feeling that presence, too. It was an unbelievable moment and a gift from God. It was the first time in almost 4 years that I felt actual love from my H toward me and toward our children.
H also went to church with us another Sunday in December and also cried throughout the service. It is so evident that God is moving in H's heart and that H is being convicted. Only God can do this work as we cannot. Give it to God and watch him move in our situations! It may not be on our timeline, but it will happen. Just BELIEVE.
My H stayed at our home until close to 1 am on Christmas Eve. I take D20 and S17 to my sister's house on Christmas Day. We have not seen H on Christmas Day since BD. This year, he asked me to let him know when we returned. I texted him when we returned home and he came over and played games with me and the children. Another change!
The world - and most of my family - told me years ago to kick my H to the curb, especially after the divorce was finalized. My heart said no. God is telling me to stand. God is telling me to wait on him. I truly believe that "what God has joined together, no man can separate." My H tried, but the covenant bond is stronger than we could ever imagine and is only broken at death. It is my calling to show my H the love of Christ NO MATTER WHAT.
Do not give up hope. Pray unceasingly. Believe in God's promises. Know that faith is the assurance of what you are hoping for without SEEING it. God is not done with me, my H, or our marriage. I do not know how long this will take, but my faith is strong and I do believe. Allow the process to work and get out of God's way so that he can do what only HE can do.
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CFK,
Your post really resonates with me. Four years.....and it does sound that your H is making progress.
I think that is really great. I hope that things continues on that path.
Keep posting and letting us know how you are doing.
Hugs,
L
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This has nothing to do with timelines or acceptance of MLC.
If you read the posts and the responses neither of us ever doubted that WM's spouse is not in MLC. Even RCR posted that with a marriage and child, the timeline cease as the MLCer can be stuck in replay.
What HB is writing and advising is that he may try and come back to WM in the future, but he will only be running away from OW and will still be in replay. That the chances are very slim that he may ever truly solve his issues and he may run from ow#1 to ow#2.
I am not trying to tell someone that there is no chance he will ever come back. I just want to make sure that WM knows that the odds are very slim and it will be very difficult.
Let's take the scenario one step further. Two years from now, we are still posting. A person posts that they met their husband, had a child, and suddenly he moves on to another woman. She states that he has done this to his first wife. Do we advise her to stand? Do we call her an OW and tell her that she has no chance?
Our forum is to support people during a very difficult time. You are absolutely correct that most of us are just going on two years. If you read my posts to others and on their situations, I consistently remind them that this process takes time- lots of time. I refer to you each and every time. I just want to make sure that we give good solid advice and not become a group that is stuck to absolute beliefs that every MLCer is coming back and every marriage is going to be saved.
I also consistently post about the fact that satan already has the MLCer, he goes after the LBSer by planting seeds of doubt that this is MLC. Through doubt, he erodes the confidence and will of the LBSer.
I do disagree with you concerning the counseling. Once again, you speak in absolutes. MC often fails if the LBSer convinces the MLCer to go. Then the MLCer may use the counseling as a forum to show why the marriage is over. In my situation, it was her idea. If I had turned it down, she could have easily twisted that as a point that I did not want to save the marriage.
The one thing about MC is that just like MLC, it takes time and can not be seen as a quick cure. Our MC at one point turned to my wife and told her, "Wouldn't it be safe to say that at this point, that in your eyes, he can't do anything right?" My wife paused and agreed. The counselor then said, "Then you should not blame him for anything he does."
If another person can throw a truth dart, and they are trained to throw truth darts, then let them.
As I have stated above and stated throughout my many, many posts- there are no guarantees, you could wait ten years and nothing happen. You could wait another ten minutes and everything change. From my perspective and viewpoint, I would rather HB tell me there is no chance and write those words directly to me, then for her to have that feeling but never reveal it to me to "protect" me. That would be disingenuous and would only hurt the forum and those that choose to stand.
I may not read the articles as thoroughly as I should, but when I feel the necessity to post something, I write my words with under three umbrellas:
This forum is for the LBSer and the LBSer needs to let go and work on themselves. Even if the marriage fails, then the LBSer has done deliberate work so that they will be able to enter into another healthy relationship if necessary.
The LBSer has to accept that their spouse has MLC. That acceptance is necessary for the healing and detaching process.
That MLC takes time and is a lot of work. There are no easy cases. No one gets a break and there are no guarantees.
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Thank you, RCR for addressing this. All very helpful insight.
I have spent lots of time in prayer and journaling and reading yesterday/last night and this is what I personally have come to decide: I need to let go of H. Of our marriage. As RCR mentioned, was hope really intuitive or was it fantasy? I don't know. Was it a coping mechanism? Was it just survival instinct? Was is parental instinct?
I don't know. And I still wrestle with the word hope and what it truly means.
This I know, whether I Stand or not, whether I hope or not, I cannot progress looking out of the corner of my eye and wondering. I think that's why I've not been a regular on here. Sometimes I feel that even though we are encouraged to detach, the umbrella of the crisis is what has brought us all together, and thus the MLCer is given (in my sitch) too much thought.
This is in God's hands. A healed marriage, another divorce, Standing/Not Standing...I don't know how it will play out and I only cause myself to stumble when speculation takes root. Mine or anyone else's.
God will provide for me. Period. He has me where I need to be. Solely focused on him. As long as I engage, wonder, hope, whatever...I'm stunting myself. It's time to let go of it all (again) and move forward (again).
I will say that when H is still present, not a Vanisher (Boomerang in my sitch? I don't know) it is difficult. Just this morning, on my way back from my "retreat", I came directly upon H in OW's car. He saw me. We saw each other.
He had to pull out behind me, but stayed way, way back. He had to come up behind me on a red light, but creeped up as slowly as possible and turned off as soon as he could to get to Starbucks.
He does this. He tries to shield me. When he drives her car, he parks further back in the driveway so I cannot see him. Why? I don't know. There is clearly some level of wanting to protect me. Does he think I'm a fragile egg? Is it guilt?
I dont' know. And although this sort of thing happens a lot, I need to stop letting it trigger hope. I have tricked myself into thinking these were little signs of remorse, shame, regret. I don't think that at this point they are. And I have to let it go, odd as it is.
Hope for me is in God's plan for my future. That's it. Period. If He wants me to Stand, HE will create that stirring in my heart and it will not be a waning emotion. If He wants me to move on, without hope, HE will give me the strength to do so and the clarity of mind to make it happen.
I think RCR's purpose of this board is a solid one: To support one's decision to Stand. I also think HB, in theory, does the same. My H is under the vice of a lunatic beyond all lunatics. She needs drama. She needs to be the center of attention. She likes to appear wealthy. She likes to continue to hold things over my head. She continues to berate and belittle--no, crucify--her ex.
How it plays out or when, I don't know. But I know that it won't happen when I'm looking, when I'm waiting.
Thank you, RCR for reminding us of the above. It's messy for each one of us and certainly I do not want to be the poster child for giving up hope. It is a fine line to decide to Stand and to detach at the same time. That I think is confusing for so many.
For now, WM is moving onward and upward. Whether H joins me in the journey at some point again, I don't know. But I have got to keep moving regardless.
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I also consistently post about the fact that satan already has the MLCer, he goes after the LBSer by planting seeds of doubt that this is MLC. Through doubt, he erodes the confidence and will of the LBSer.
Thank you for this; I needed to read it!
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Covenant For Life's post really made me think. I guess this is a fatal flaw of mine, but I just can't treat my H with love anymore. I don't treat him hatefully, but I just don't want to talk to, or be around him....ever. After so much betrayal, just seeing him now stirs up so much hurt and anger. His recent behavior makes me wish my kids didn't even have to be around his influence at all. I wish he would vanish completely and we could move on with our lives in peace. My girls already know they need to look to other Godly men as role models. I don't know what good he is bringing to them, other than the biological bond and the fact that girls (and boys) deep down want their dads no matter who they are.
I'm a complete failure at standing and at this point I'm sure I'm a downer on this board, for which I'm very sorry. I do truly love seeing some of your MLCers seeming to make progress - I hope and pray there are MANY more outcomes like RCR's and HB's.
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Thank you WM. What a beautiful. thoughtful post. I am going through a painful time as H is moving forward legally after the New Year. I have confusion within me about how to proceed though I know that I cannot control H. I can only determine how I respond. I continue to spend time in deep thought/prayer/meditation as I need clarity. It has not come yet, but I continue opening myself to it. Your post was helpful to me. You are a remarkable woman.
Best,
Phoenix
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You mention accepting the cold facts. I think one of the key things many of us actually have difficulty accepting is the MLC process. RCR has a very very good article on Acceptance, one that I have personally read dozens of times.
For people who want to read it, it's at: http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_acceptance.html
No apparent movement does not necessarily mean the MLCer is stuck. Another of RCR's articles that is excellent is Back-Limbo-Forward. It discusses movement and progress of the MLCer.
And that article is at: http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_progress_back-limbo-forward.html
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Covenant For Life's post really made me think. I guess this is a fatal flaw of mine, but I just can't treat my H with love anymore. I don't treat him hatefully, but I just don't want to talk to, or be around him....ever. After so much betrayal, just seeing him now stirs up so much hurt and anger. His recent behavior makes me wish my kids didn't even have to be around his influence at all. I wish he would vanish completely and we could move on with our lives in peace. My girls already know they need to look to other Godly men as role models. I don't know what good he is bringing to them, other than the biological bond and the fact that girls (and boys) deep down want their dads no matter who they are.
I'm a complete failure at standing and at this point I'm sure I'm a downer on this board, for which I'm very sorry. I do truly love seeing some of your MLCers seeming to make progress - I hope and pray there are MANY more outcomes like RCR's and HB's.
A failure, how? By feeling human feelings? By having a hard time with your H's MLC? WE ARE ALL survivors here!
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Faith, WM, I have never been a big fan of the concept of schadenfreude--it seems very cruel, but I feel such a huge sense of relief that there are others who feel something of what I feel.
Faith, I understand your sense of failure and I think our H's are psychological twins. Your story sounds so much like mine it is eerie, and at the same time, tiring. I feel your pain and frustration and echo every single sentiment. I am so jealous of the women whose H's just drop off the planet. I honestly feel my boys would be much better off with some distance and space to process and it would be much healthier for H to reconnect when he is saner--because I do believe he will look back with some regret.
In my heart I would like to stand, but my head has always told me differently. I struggle with hope and faith and acceptance and strength, but at the end of the day, my head always wins. I know that if I stand and it doesn't work out, I will never forgive myself for wasting more time investing in a man who never loved me. But, no matter what I choose to do "not standing," I will make the best of it and be happy. And the second path is the only one where I get to make the choices and call the shots--and it is time for me to put on the big girl panties and make choices and stop living for him...
I am sending both of you all my strength and positive energy. Love and light and hope for a much better new year! Lisa
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Stillstanding
Thank you for posting the article links that I referenced.
From Ready
"What HB is writing and advising is that he may try and come back to WM in the future, but he will only be running away from OW and will still be in replay. That the chances are very slim that he may ever truly solve his issues and he may run from ow#1 to ow#2."
It is quite possible the MLCer will leave OW and still be in Replay. I have seen this firsthand with my friend's ex-wife. I do not agree that running from one OW to another makes the chances slim that the issues of MLC will not eventually be solved.....the process will continue. In my friend's case, she did go to OM#2, and the relationship with OM#2 was worse....and more quickly worse.....than with OM#1. But to say this means she will never truly solve her issues, I am not sure I agree with. At some point, it is quite possible if not probable that the MLCer will not be running anymore.
Here's RCR's article MLCers Run Even When the Alienator is Gone.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_contact-and-communication_pursuit-and-distance_mlcer-run-when-alienator-gone.html
From Ready
"I just want to make sure that we give good solid advice and not become a group that is stuck to absolute beliefs that every MLCer is coming back and every marriage is going to be saved."
I am divorced. I am quite certain there is no abo$l()te belief about MLCers coming back and marriages saved. I do believe and trust in the process of MLC......and below is another reality that I reference often.
From RCR's article Stories and Human Behavior
"An MLCer may become stuck, but those are the rare cases. More common is for a person to regret their actions--often when they are too late because the spouse has closed the opportunity for marital reconciliation."
From Ready
"Once again, you speak in absolutes."
I reference articles.
From Ready
"MC often fails if the LBSer convinces the MLCer to go. Then the MLCer may use the counseling as a forum to show why the marriage is over. In my situation, it was her idea. If I had turned it down, she could have easily twisted that as a point that I did not want to save the marriage."
In my situation, it was also her idea to go to marriage counseling. I did not turn it down either....I went. I also know of other MLCers who are the ones who suggested marriage counseling. The effectiveness was still low because, although the MLCer may be cycling during counseling (as mine was) they were ultimately still running.
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I thought I would chime in regarding the MC.
One of my associate's wife threatened him with divorce over a year ago. She stated that, unless they went to MC, she would be gone.
Fast forward - after one year plus of MC - with some major changes made by my associate - his wife left anyway.
In this instance, I see the MC as just a means to an end. She wanted to leave. She didn't want to look like the "bad guy." I believe she expected him to fail at MC....and he didn't. When the MC turned to her and said - your H has made some great changes...what are you doing? - She just acknowledged that it didn't matter - she still wanted out.
limitless
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In this instance, I see the MC as just a means to an end. She wanted to leave. She didn't want to look like the "bad guy." I believe she expected him to fail at MC....and he didn't. When the MC turned to her and said - your H has made some great changes...what are you doing? - She just acknowledged that it didn't matter - she still wanted out.
My my what great lengths they will go to so they are not the "bad guy". Get manipulated and yanked around by OM or OW because they don't have the guts to walk away..feign they are trying at thier marriage then bail on the spouse anyway...try and blame everything on the spouse and take no responsibility for thier role in the disintegration of the marriage..or even raise a little flag that they are soooooo unhappy
Good Lord you'd have to be Carnac the Magnificent to figure these people out.
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Then let us reference research:
MIDLIFE DIVORCE INITIATION:
FROM CRISIS TO
DEVELOPMENTAL TRANSITION
Sara Iwanir
Haviva Ayal
CONTEMPORARY FAMILY THERAPY December 1991.
Excellent article on recognizing that midlife marriage therapy is different from traditional marriage therapy.
Sometimes one of the marital partners suffers a personal crisis, due to problems in his or her career, in
health, or to a feeling of existential anxiety, such as a sense of emptiness, a lack of purpose, or an identity problem.
In these cases individual therapy is recommended, focused on the initiator's problem. The partner may be used as cotherapist to support the client and to help create a new interaction and marital pattern that is adapted to the changes in the position of the individual.
Unbalancing previous hierarchical relationships. The person who initiates the rejection gains an advantage over the rejected person, even though in the past he or she may have been the weaker partner. The conflict initiation and the resultant power shift disrupt the existing situation and open the way for redistributing the balance of
power between the partners. In many cases the initiator is ahle to provoke the crisis through an external empowering factor such as a lover or even a therapist. Such a factor gives him/her the strength to dislocate the existing unsatisfactory or even destructive relational pattern. We refer to this process as "unbalancing the system". Minuchin & Fishman (1981) write about therapists using this technique in order to empower a family memher, for instance, by openly siding with him. The unbalancing of the system may produce significant changes in cases where individual family members are able to experiment with a variety of interpersonal roles and functions.
These changes, in tum, may produce new realities for the persons concerned. There are two types of S/DIs: overt and covert. The overt one is defined as a case where one spouse leaves the home, starts legal proceedings, or states his/her wish to separate. Here, the real wishes are stated openly. In the covert initiation, often the person concerned will show signals such as: an affair, devoting a lot of time and energy to activities outside the relationship, ceasing to provide money (for men) or cooked food (for women), and rejecting any attempt at closeness and cooperation. Federico (1979) described the often unconscious or precocious
strategies whereby the (covert) initiating partner provokes the other to behaviors that can lead the marriage to a point of no return.
This kind of initiation can he used by the one who wishes to separate but is
not ready to take responsibility for his/her decision. The initiating party, says Federico (p. 100), uses one out of two strategies to make his partner the one to blame for the S/DI: The first strategy is provocation: the initiator starts a series of escalating rejections, disturbances of everyday routines (such as neglecting to fulfill accepted roles) and humiliations. The spouse starts by accommodating in a complementary way to these new norms. At a certain point the partner finds the situation insufferahle, and reacts by suing for divorce.
The article then makes recommendations for the therapist and the couple to reestablish emotional bonds. Some of it is outdated but it does recognize leaving the children out of it.
My point is that if the MC recognizes MLC, they can be a benefit.
As I read the articles, I will post more. As I have stated before, the newer models of MC involve looking back at the childhood and adolescent issues. The feeling is that if they can identify and heal "past" issues, they can then work on the marriage. Once again it recognizes that some of the crisis issues are more connected with issues that occurred prior to the marriage and must be addressed before the therapy can continue to work on the marriage.
One of the things the article suggested was a symbolic ending of the old marriage and starting a new marriage. Both parties accepting that the old marriage was over and it was time to start a new marriage. (I think HB told me once that I had to accept my old marriage was dead, burnt to the ground, even the foundation was gone) We don't stand for the old marriage, we stand for the new marriage that is created when the partner comes out of MLC.
I will also let you know that there is very few quantitative or qualitative studies concerning MLC. Even Thundarr will admit to little if no training in this area. However, I do spend time reading them and trying to glisten information concerning identity and identity crisis.
The point is there is not just one way to deal with MLC or a secret code- I believe that we have to read and then we take what works for us. We also post our personal stories. One day after I finish my own paper. I will try to download the threads and code them into a phenomenological source and put the data out for all to read. That is way down the road.
I just am noting that I also read and study and I my observations and advice are based not only on my experiences, but what I have read on other threads, and research that I have completed.
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I have posted my own reply here on Writing Mom's Thread:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1935.45
Love,
HB
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From Ready
"(I think HB told me once that I had to accept my old marriage was dead, burnt to the ground, even the foundation was gone)"
I agree that the old marriage is done. I don't believe the foundation is gone. I have seen this pretty clearly with my friend whose ex-wife married the alienator, then later divorced the alienator. There is a foundation that her and my friend have. Her communication to him shows this to be true.
Below is part of RCR's blog called Love: Foundations & Seeds. The link to the entire blog is below that.
"Your MLCer may ravage the building that is upon the foundation, but the foundation itself remains. It is your history and your family. It is the lessons you learned together, how to calm each other down, how to excite each other, how to cook just the way you like or not use the foods you don’t. You built your foundation of countless little things as well as a few big things."
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?p=219
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There is a foundation that her and my friend have. Her communication to him shows this to be true.
Having past history that includes your family, and attaining a more true and solid foundation within the rebuilding of a NEW marriage, are TWO vastly different stories...history is what you have with your spouse because of having been with them for a period of time, whether long or short. But the foundation this same history was once built upon wasn't made of the best materials to begin with; simply because neither person knew beforehand what a truly bonded and loving marriage was all about.
Although the marriage itself doesn't cause the crisis; there are TWO people within this same marriage that must bear their own individual responsibilities for the events that led to it having broken down and the foundation completely destroyed in this process.
"Your MLCer may ravage the building that is upon the foundation, but the foundation itself remains. It is your history and your family. It is the lessons you learned together, how to calm each other down, how to excite each other, how to cook just the way you like or not use the foods you don’t. You built your foundation of countless little things as well as a few big things."
I respectfully disagree with RCR's article and I will tell you why: a foundation that was once built on sand, straw and even brick in the past is completely destroyed by the actions of the MLC'er toward the marriage when THEY destroyed the whole nine yards.
It takes two to make it; ONE to break it; and this is very true when it came to what was done at bomb drop. The whole foundation was taken out from underneath, just as sure as the proverbial rug was jerked out from under the unsuspecting spouse when the MLC'er says the words that destroys a whole lifetime of work, togetherness, relationship and marriage.
Once the journey is walked by BOTH people, however, the rules of engagement undergo a radical change, and they SHOULD..you do NOT wish for this to happen EVER AGAIN, and for this to take place what follows must needs to happen:
A NEW FOUNDATION and "dwelling place" must needs to be built from GROUND UP, CONCRETE mixed with ROCK is the way to go within this second round, and this new foundation must be a much firmer and stronger one than before.
The concrete represents what's been learned by both people, the rock represents the greater strength that is added to the NEW foundation once it's begun, finished, and the house(relationship/new marriage) is being rebuilt in all NEW aspects.
Nothing should ever be the SAME, ever again.
In order to rebuild the new marriage IF it comes to this; a whole NEW foundation MUST be rebuilt upon a NEW knowledge of what commitment entails, based also on a NEW knowledge of love and what it really means, NEW aspects, NEW principles, and a NEW way of relating; this has everything to do with the LESSONS that MUST be learned by BOTH people.
Literal "children" go into the crisis, true adults emerge and the result SHOULD BE much stronger, more deeply committed, and more resolute couple than before; this takes so much WORK to accomplish; nothing good is ever easily attained. You must be willing to continue to grow, even as this rebuilding takes place; and this also means standing your ground, making sure your spouse clearly understands what must happen in order to go forward into this new marriage.
EVERYTHING MUST CHANGE to STRENGTH; with NO weaknesses in this aspect remaining; NOTHING of the "old" should remain except what is NOT going to make that much of a difference in the long run.
When my husband and I began to rebuild; we found that EVERYTHING had been completely destroyed; and we had to rebuild from SCRATCH; which meant the very foundation we ONCE stood on was ALSO gone.
In it's place stood two STRANGERS that had to get to know each other again; BOTH of us had changed drastically because of what had happened within the fabric of our lives.
As long as ANY of the 'old' remains, there will be MORE purging that takes place and that means MORE crisis is in store.
This was very true within his second bout of crisis; as he had one last issue to face, resolve, and eventually heal within himself. Until ALL was faced, resolved, settled and healed by BOTH of us, we could NOT rebuild our NEW marriage properly, a total rebuilding was defined to me, as meaning from the FOUNDATION UP.
When he went into this second bout of crisis, the whole marriage was destroyed once again; PLUS what foundational work that had been started...and it was NOT right, simply because he was NOT finished, but then, neither was I.
He'd made the major decision to KEEP the marriage; but that has NOTHING to do with the rebuilding we had to begin from scratch ONE MORE TIME.
It had to be right, or it couldn't be.....I dreamed of this particular aspect one night; and in my dream, I saw someone I didn't like at all; this represented my husband; and we were trying to build a house from foundation up, but HE was trying to take "shortcuts", and I was having to stand my ground, and tell him NO, we could NOT do it this way. We were arguing, me and this man I didn't care for, nor like; but in the end, he had to do it the way I wanted it done.
When I carried this dream to one who interprets these, it was revealed to me that the man I didn't like was my HUSBAND; he was trying to do whatever he wanted to do; and get me to accept something "half made". This could NOT be, as I was fighting him at every step.
The "house" plus the NEW foundation represented our "new" marriage as it was trying to come together just before my husband went into his second bout of crisis.
Yet, it was NOT "right" for obvious reasons.
The point being; until it was "right" for BOTH of us, we would get NOWHERE in our attempts.
I DID see this come to pass...and as I asked for further understanding; it was given to me as I went.
In other words, to begin from the BOTTOM to the TOP we had to START OVER COMPLETELY and TOTALLY and this started with us building a MUCH STRONGER foundation to build ON than we'd had before.
We could NOT rebuild on the "old" foundation that my husband had destroyed, and I had to let go of this aspect, as well. NO ONE can hope to rebuild a successful new marriage from ANY of the OLD, nor should anyone simply "settle" for a "cracked" or "destroyed" foundation.
Don't "settle" for anything you don't wish to accept...too much "muddy water" has gone under the bridge to ever go back to what once was; it won't work.
The only "sure" rock foundation anyone has is the Lord; and with His Guidance, together, we rebuilt; this time with CONCRETE mixed in ROCK, to speak metaphorically. And this time, all went as it should have.
This meant getting ALL and EVERYTHING.
This is NOT about me being "right" this is about what I've LEARNED by having gone through...and this is NOT about being a "perfectionist"; this is about my own true experience.
Love to all,
HB
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Hello all,
I have been hesitant to chime in on this thread as it has become less about the original topic and more a philosophical debate amongst those who have a much greater knowledge and wisdom than I am even close to, at least at this point. I don't know if I can hang in on a debate between Ready, DGU, Limitless, HB and even RCR. Thank you Ready for stating "even Thundarr" as I am both honored and humbled by that remark, and will state again that I make no claims or assertions that I am any more knowledgable or wise than anyone else here.
That being said, I will throw my hat into to the arena and hopefully add something to the discussion. Ready's article that he reprinted was amazing in that the foundation for the therapeutic approach is grounded in empirically validated theories. I don't know what techniques the therapist who Ready is seeing uses, but I would strongly suspect a John Gottman influence as evidenced by the direct line of questioning and cutting straight to the point that to his W he can do no right. Unfortunately, Gottman has not specifically addressed MLC (even though he's written literally dozens of books) but many of his concepts COULD be applied if the therapist had a solid understanding of what he or she was dealing with when seeing a couple with one partner experiencing MLC. Again, I really like the article and feel that the information contained within IS valid and fits with what we know about MLC but without the field research of utilizing it in a real world setting we can only speculate.
As far as the foundation of the marriage goes, I'm going to straddle the middle a bit here as I agree with DGU in that the foundation IS still there in most cases from what I have seen but I may define foundation differently than what he and HB have been describing. First off, most would say that the foundation of any relationship is trust and if that were the criteria used then the foundation is surely destroyed even if there is not an alienator. Just knowing that my W could so viciously hurt me and then laugh in my face at my pain affects my trust not only in her but in humankind itself. I WANT to believe that what I'm seeing is not the real her, but if I were to judge only outward behaviors then I would have no choice but to deem her a sociopathic abandoner who has no maternal instinct or code of honor. In a way I'm forced to accept that hormones and brain chemicals are involved which led to what I consider out-of-character behavior. In fact I know that not having concern for the kids is out of character as I don't believe she could have faked concern for her children for the last 19 + years that we have been parents. I am still mystified by the fact that the maternal instinct can be overridden and logic would tell me that the only force more powerful would have to be a threat to individual survival, which lends credence to the belief that the MLCers are running away because they fear dying. Even with that, though, mothers (and fathers) sacrificing themselves for their children is not uncommon in the animal kingdom or in the human world especially. Going back to the original sentence in this paragraph, that trust in the very basic belief that we really "know" the other person is oftentimes shattered by the events of MLC.
Now, as for my personal theory on the foundation of the marriage I think that trust IS a large part of it but also familiarity as well. This would seem to be disputed by my previous paragraph, but that notwithstanding I again go with the assertion that the core person is inside there and that the things that made the person who they are will not change permanently. One of the theories in MC has to do with the two trees growing side by side and how the roots end up becoming so entangled with each other that they eventually grow together. Both trees may be strong above ground, but if you start cutting the roots both trees will suffer. They may eventually recover and grow new roots separate from each other but they will never again be completely purged of the other tree due to shared resources. 20 + years of a relationship changes both parties in ways that can never truly be undone, and this can be validated by the fact that couples sometimes reunite 20 or more years after separation/ divorce. Our spouses are and will always be part of us and vice versa, so that foundation of familiarity will still be there even if we change everything we can about ourselves.
I do not speak in absolutes here as there are no such things in the fields of Psychology and Counseling. There are some marriages and relationships that WERE never valid even though the parties went through the motions. Many stay married for years and never truly commit nor do they accept the other person into their own heart. In those cases there is no foundation and I believe that the two could walk away and never look back. It may even be seen as a relief to both. I think many celebrity marriages are this way, as I believe many celebrities and politicians as well lack the necessary tools to truly bond with another person. It is an accepted belief that many of the glitterati are sociopaths, and this could be a large part of how they got to where they are. Not being constrained by "weaker" emotions such as empathy and guilt could go a long way to helping a person reach their own personal goals, but could also help them to reach Death Row as well. But, I digress.
Now, as far as what HB said about "two children entering the marriage" I do respectfully (as always, HB) have to disagree in that it does take only one to destroy what has been built by both. The actions of the MLCer are not representative of the mental faculty or maturity of the LBS as I have seen truly mature, dedicated and intelligent people on here suffering the same fate as I am due to the actions of their spouse. Is it fair to assert that all the LBSes on here were immature "children" who weren't ready for a "real" marriage? I think not. I won't speak about myself in this regard as I would be a biased judge of my own character, and I'm sure many on here WOULD say that I was probably a child in a grown-up marriage but oh well. I truly don't think the breakdown of the marriage is the fault of both parties as I don't feel the marriage really breaks down, but rather the MLCer is what breaks. I liken that to one of the spouses becoming ill (and we often speak of MLC as an illness) and then either dying or becoming incapable of fulfilling their marital duties. Would we blame the widow/ widower or say that they had a part in their marriage ending? Absolutely not. The LBS may be completely mature, devoted and capable of making a life-long commitment and honoring it to the hilt and still be blind-sided by the partner that changes personalities and walks out. And furthermore, if we are to accept that MLC is a "process" and therefore by definition "temporary" then for many it may be just another blip on the radar of a 50+ year marriage that the LBSer was ready for all along.
Sorry for such a long post and I hope I haven't stepped on any toes as, like I said, those who posted before me are not only more knowledgable than I in this but also some of the smartest people I've ever had the pleasure of getting to know. Thanks to all for such a great line of discussion and fruit for thought.
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They like to call the "Foundation" of the World Trade Centers "The footprint" I like that. After the implosion and destruction a new hole is carved out. Rebuilding from scratch in a familiar geography. ::) ::)
I'm with Thundarr in The Newbies section.....I'm like the Count from Sesame Street talking to Einstein :o :o :o :o
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Very interesting discussion... so interesting, I'm going to throw my two cents in here...
Is it fair to assert that all the LBSes on here were immature "children" who weren't ready for a "real" marriage?
In my assessment, not only of myself, but from the writings of others on the forum, I would say that a level of maturity has been gained.. a level of personal insight.... a level of empathy for complete strangers.... that would NOT have been gained if not for the trial by fire of MLC. Devastation and loss have a way of showing us our TRUE blessings in life. I've seen major changes occur in attitudes... in coping skills.... in strength of character and commitment of many of the LBS' here that started out with BD. Changes for the better.
I work with YOUNG people.... their attitudes and belief systems are severely SKEWED by media propaganda and the lack of LIFE EXPERIENCE. There is nothing WRONG with them, but emotionally... they are immature. Nothing cures that EXCEPT life experience and hard times. I wouldn't with this on anyone... but I know now that I am on my way to being fully "grown up" because of it...
I have had to face my OWN weaknesses and insecurities....these weaknesses contributed to the breakdown of my marriage... but not only that.... they were MY part of the reason the foundation of my marriage was so shaky. I agree that the foundation is mainly made up of FAMILY and shared experiences and that COUNTS FOR A LOT.... they are the threads that can hold you together when nothing else is there... my marriage is literally hanging by these threads... currently there is NO "relationship", and no trust. There is a conscious DECISION by both my husband and myself to "dance with the one whut brung ya" instead of starting over with a NEW person.... but we will BOTH be NEW PEOPLE.... strangers.... we already ARE strangers in many ways.... as OW has been in the picture now for almost two years. She has had more of a relationship with him than I have... as far as communication and care go.... it may be FAKE, but it is MORE than I have been getting. She's had all the holidays and memories for this period... they may be good or bad... but they are there, and we have very few.
However, I believe that starting over from scratch with someone who is FAMILIAR to you is preferable TO ME, and to my husband. Like people who say they just don't want to have to go through all the dating and such again.... it is EASIER to start from scratch with someone whose clothing is already in your closet, I guess, LOL!!
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Your post was very insightful Thundarr. I have something to add, and in Jeopardy format I will do it in the form of a question.
With the point you made about trust, would it be possible to say that trust can be rebuilt because there is a foundation?
My answer would be yes. Many LBS recognize that their MLCer is very different from the core person they were for so many years. Since MLC is a process, I think it is very believable that the MLCer can return closely to those cores that they held......only more "refined and effective" as Jim Conway writes.
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I agree with you wholeheartedly, DGU.
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Call me a jaded cynic. I find this interesting. I think trust is the foundation to any relationship and I truly believe it can never be reestablished. I think you can harden your constitution, look past certain things and thereby change your definition of trust, create better boundaries and limits, but once a sacred trust has been shattered, I don't think you can ever go back.
I think there are cases where trust has not been shattered, and then there's a chance. I think there may be some people who never wholly trusted, and then there's a chance. And I think there are some MLCers who are so obviously mentally ill for a period of time, that you can blame something else, and then there's a chance.
But I think, for most of us, when your spouse--the person you trusted more than any other--spits on your marriage vows, turns to another person and puts your kids in jeopardy, even if it's only in a minor way, but clearly puts their own needs above their children and spouse, I don't believe you can ever go back. Anyone that says they can is fooling themselves.
Some people come out with a renewed resolve NOT to trust that way ever again, and in reality, I think that is the only way to achieve R. I think it is possible to rebuild that trust over a LONG period, but embarking on R means you have to put aside trust, for some period of time, because THAT person betrayed you and if they did it once, how will you ever know they won't do it again?
And this is where I find "standing" so hard. I value loyalty and trust, more than anything. I have discarded "friends" for minor breaches. So what to do with exH? Even considering taking him back would mean I would have to change my VALUES--how does one do that, and can you feel good about it? Could I feel good about myself if I elevated a person who trashed me above all of the things that I value and am trying to teach my kids?
And this is why I asked the question. Do you have a line that could not be crossed? I could have forgiven a sexual dalliance, I could have forgiven financial infidelity, drugs, alcohol, a sex addiction... But for me, I think when he decided he loved her enough to MARRY her, I had to come to the conclusion that nothing we had meant anything to him, because there was NOTHING that made him hesitate enough to look back and try to salvage even the RESPECT for what we had by leaving in a better way--she was worth sacrificing everything.
No matter the proccess, the dis-ease, etc. If the lack of character is such that he could put his kids in jeopardy and walk away, how could I ever know he wouldn't do it again? How could I ever know he completed his journey? And that is what I find so unsettling about all of it. I got through life knowing that as crazy as my parents can sometimes be, I KNOW they will always have my back. I don't believe his kids will ever feel that, and he doesn't even care, or he would not have done it--and that means I never really knew him, so where is the foundation?
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No matter the proccess, the dis-ease, etc. If the lack of character is such that he could put his kids in jeopardy and walk away, how could I ever know he wouldn't do it again? How could I ever know he completed his journey? And that is what I find so unsettling about all of it. I got through life knowing that as crazy as my parents can sometimes be, I KNOW they will always have my back. I don't believe his kids will ever feel that, and he doesn't even care, or he would not have done it--and that means I never really knew him, so where is the foundation?
Lisa - this is what scares me witless too - how can I ever know if he completed his journey?
'And I think there are some MLCers who are so obviously mentally ill for a period of time, that you can blame something else, and then there's a chance.'
My H definitely falls into this category. His behaviour has been so 'out there', that not once have I questioned whether this was MLC. But have continually questioned - is this just MLC, or MLC and bipolar as well?
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Lisa, I get what you are saying about trust. I just don't feel that way. Maybe because I have been betrayed MANY times in my life, and I have also lied and betrayed others, (but not to the degree my MLCer is doing them... i'm also not a serial killer, LOL!!). I'm a nice person.... what would cause me to do those things? Lack of character? Sure... but I also had and have many WONDERFUL character traits.... so, again.... lack of character? How does one build character? What happened in my childhood that shouldn't have, or what DIDN"T happen that SHOULD have? As an adult, I've had opportunity to read about or find counsel for my abandonment issues... yet they were NOT put completely to rest.. I just didn't know it. So, I have done the best I could, with what I had, under the circumstances... and still, I failed myself many times, and failed OTHERS that counted on and trusted me. Does that mean I can't be trusted ever again? Because I can be trusted NOW, more completely than EVER. All it took was for ME to see, and accept who I really am, what I've really done in the past, and how I choose to be from now and forever on. That's all it takes. So, if a person truly SEES themselves, can they be redeemed? I have been... why not my husband?
I just don't understand how anyone would want to go through life expecting the worst from people... I have witnessed the BEST from people.... and yet I know the WORST also exists..... how do you know the people you hold in the highest regard weren't headed down the wrong path at one time? How do you know YOU would never succumb to temptation, or depression? You don't know... you THINK you know... but you don't. It's the certainty that you KNOW that will get you every time.... that and FEAR.
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RCR's article Tidbits of Trust
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_assurances_trust_tidbits-of-trust.html
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Thundarr, :)
Now, as far as what HB said about "two children entering the marriage"
WHERE did you get THAT out of this: ????
Literal "children" go into the crisis, true adults emerge
I did NOT say "children go into marriage"...a person can be mature physically and mentally; but childlike emotionally. Children go INTO the crisis, ADULTS emerge"
NO ONE that enters this phase is truly emotionally mature; but assuming they allow this process to work on them, they will emerge whole and healed in ALL aspects; NOT JUST SOME.
On the other hand, the true unshakeable concrete AND rock foundation of a marriage should contain ALL of these aspects:
1.God as the Head of Household; (which is a given; without Him who authored and created marriage; you have a real problem).
2.Commitment,
3.Love,
4.Trust,
5.Honor,
6.Protection
7. Integrity
Without these necessary elements to rebuild a NEW marriage, the very foundation of the marriage is unstable, subject again to failure.
Without COMMITMENT; there's NO HOPE for either side; as it takes this one aspect to see the MLC spouse through the crisis without cracking up or walking away; as this one aspect can help hold a failing marriage together when the LOVE is gone for a time. Yet, after the Lord, it's the FIRST aspect needed to rebuild; because the road to a new marriage is NOT an easy one.
Without LOVE, the relationship can be held together by commitment; but it becomes a cold hard existence. Love is often sacrificial, being willing to fore go your own desires, setting yourself aside at times in the name of helping your spouse become the best they can be.
Love is patient, love is kind, love is longsuffering; and in the words of Jim Dobson; Love must ALSO, at times, be TOUGH. :)
AND, love must be FREE; a letting go that because you love, you want your loved one to be happy no matter what they choose, whether they choose to stay with you or walk away. This is the kind of love GOD Himself extends to us; He lets us go to do whatever we think we need to do; and He wants us to be happy; yet, He also knows we won't find true happiness but within Him and ourselves, and no other "outside" resource will ever do.
NOW, before you read the next one; there is a serious breach of trust in any situation that breaks the marriage down; the trust WILL return in time, BUT until that time, learn to always trust the LORD with all and everything, and NOT lean to your own understanding.
There are several aspects of trust that are broken; physical, emotional and mental....consistent behavior and a willingness to be transparent for a time, or for always can rebuild trust; given time.
Without TRUST there will always be suspicion, alienation, and an unwillingness to become a true team of two that becomes ONE, so that instead of becoming united against the world having each other's back, so to speak, you will instead become a competitive set of two; lacking true intimacy; therefore cheating each other out of a deepening connection. Trust also means you are comfortable, and can be YOURSELF, without fear of what your spouse will say/do in retaliation.
It does NOT mean you can just do whatever you want, if you KNOW it's going to hurt your spouse; that seriously destroys trust. Yet, I would think it goes hand in hand with Protecting the marriage; being unwilling to do anything that would hurt the other; and being consistent in behaviors that would grow various aspects of trust within the marriage.
Without HONOR; your marriage vows are worthless, even if you renew them. Even God commands us to honor each other. A man is charged to honor his wife, who is the weaker vessel, to love her as Christ loved the church, and gave His life for it. Wives are commanded to respect their husbands. Yet, there are men AND women every day that "cut the legs" out from under their partner instead of honoring them as they should.
On the other hand, Jesus gave a commandment that said "Love ye one another, as I have loved you"..this is a very tall order for people to follow; but we must needs do the best we can...to love IS to also honor/respect the one you give your heart and devotion to.
Without PROTECTION on the part of BOTH people; there are NO protective actions taken to care for and keep the relationship SAFE. Protect what is dearest to you, and you will always be protected. This is done with proper boundaries that not only protect you, but also your marriage...and boundaries are NOT only for your spouse, they are for OTHER people as well, especially those who would come in between you and your spouse.
Without INTEGRITY, all of the above could not be carried out as it should be.
Don't confuse this with your life History which includes the person you've married, and your family. This is a totally separate aspect; or it is to ME.
Each person's life is separate, together, family related, and there is a history that remains; but this is NOT the actual foundation that is built upon.
Of course, the familiarity with your spouse is a given; after all you've spent a great deal of your life with your marital partner; but this is considered HISTORY of the relationship; a completely different ASPECT of a relationship; not necessarily the FOUNDATION this same history was built upon.
There are various aspects that make up the whole, and the above listed are the MOST important aspects needed in order to rebuild stronger than before.
And in the end, it certainly DOES become all about the aspects; and I do separate these things out; they all tie together in various ways; BUT they are STILL separated in my own point of view.
Just because you have history, does NOT mean you will rebuild a NEW foundation, based FROM and within that past history.
Once a new foundation is created, you begin creating a whole NEW type/aspect of shared history that has NOTHING to do with the "old" history, if that makes sense. :)
Your history, regardless of what aspect you speak of or see, is actually meant to be learned from, then you're meant to let it go into the past.
That's also why forgiveness, acceptance and healing is so important; once this is all processed; then you need to let it go. As long as you live in the past, there is NO future to be had...you cannot live in both aspects at the same time...you can only live in one or the other.
Even falling in love becomes different that second time around; everything changes. The basic concepts of HISTORY, such as how long you've been married, how many children you have, other aspects of marital history that aren't forgotten, but are no longer relevant because the past CANNOT be changed to fix any mistake real or perceived that was made during that time. Some, but not ALL of your likes and dislikes will be carried out of the end of this trial, though even your perception/perspective changes once the crisis begins to be a distant memory.
Yet, of course, for those of you who might jump on this one, LOL...your CHILDREN DO move forward WITH you, regardless of how this may come out; that is your family and but one aspect of your marital history which contains many aspects. :)
Each person is unique in what they will retain, and let go of as individuals. It is always hopeful that once the trial finishes its work, all that was "wrong" or "unbalanced" will become "right" or "balanced"; and hope becomes new within the couple, even as they work on rebuilding their NEW marriage; from NEW FOUNDATION UP; rebuilding on the stronger and better aspects that I listed above this time around; based on ALL they have learned during each one's respective trial.
I realize you probably THINK I'm painting myself into a corner, but I assure I am nowhere close, LOL, I have LIVED through this; therefore this was what I learned.
To separate the ASPECTS of all and everything is what I have done for a LONG time...as there are different lessons learned from each aspect.
And in the end, it becomes ALL about the ASPECTS that are closely related, but NOT just like each other. :)
Have a good one. :)
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Very well put, HB. Printing it out....
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My answers will be in BLUE.
author=LisaLives link=topic=1946.msg116847#msg116847 date=1325442887
Call me a jaded cynic. I find this interesting. I think trust is the foundation to any relationship and I truly believe it can never be reestablished. I think you can harden your constitution, look past certain things and thereby change your definition of trust, create better boundaries and limits, but once a sacred trust has been shattered, I don't think you can ever go back.
Honey, you're not a "jaded cynic"; you've suffered a great deal of hurt within your situation. What you're asking, and saying is very relevant to how you feel; and right or wrong, you have EVERY right to how you feel.
And, you are RIGHT; once a sacred trust that was given blindly has been shattered; you can NEVER go "back" to what once was. I have often termed it as "too much muddy water under the bridge. I was also once asked by my husband if we could go "back" to what we were before he did all that he did, and I said NO, we can't. Unless we faced the past, we would never have a future...and I meant every word I said.
For what it's worth, I NEVER DID "harden my constitution", sacrifice my morals and standards, nor did I ever make any kind of "excuses" for what was done to me during the time spent in his MLC. Wrong is wrong, and you can never make what was done "right"; you can only make amends, ask for forgiveness, forgive each other, and forgive yourselves, as the past is set in stone; this cannot be changed, no matter what. You can only try to do better going forward.
I think there are cases where trust has not been shattered, and then there's a chance. I think there may be some people who never wholly trusted, and then there's a chance. And I think there are some MLCers who are so obviously mentally ill for a period of time, that you can blame something else, and then there's a chance.
I haven't seen one case where trust wasn't totally shattered, Lisa. When a MLC'er turns on their spouse, one kind of trust; the emotional kind is shattered in that aspect. When adultery is committed, the physical trust is also shattered. Then there is your mental trust; where you see your MLC spouse or even a cheater do things you never THOUGHT they would do; and this shatters that aspect of trust.
When it comes down to it, ALL aspects of trust are shattered, because the relationship was NOT protected as it should have been by the person who shatters and destroys it completely.
And these three aspects of trust are really hard to rebuild. In my case, I was encouraged to trust the Lord first; then all else would fall into place; and this took awhile for me. There was so much hurt, so much pain, and so much damage that was done.
But I think, for most of us, when your spouse--the person you trusted more than any other--spits on your marriage vows, turns to another person and puts your kids in jeopardy, even if it's only in a minor way, but clearly puts their own needs above their children and spouse, I don't believe you can ever go back. Anyone that says they can is fooling themselves.
Some people come out with a renewed resolve NOT to trust that way ever again, and in reality, I think that is the only way to achieve R. I think it is possible to rebuild that trust over a LONG period, but embarking on R means you have to put aside trust, for some period of time, because THAT person betrayed you and if they did it once, how will you ever know they won't do it again?
For one thing, you DON'T know if it will ever happen again; and IF you are a believer; this is where trusting Him totally comes in.
I had asked that same question of the Lord when I was going through; and at times, I had one foot in, one foot out, I was afraid, hurting, bawling my eyes out most days, having so much trouble trusting what He was advising me to do on other days. Yet, I cycled through these feelings, just like anyone else that goes through this; and every time I started off another direction, I was influenced to stand fast and stand still.
The Lord kept assuring me this would not happen again; and I kept asking Him HOW He knew these things(I know, I was a dummy, LOL,,this was the LORD I was speaking to, not someone else). He explained that my husband was going through MLC; and He further explained about the state of mind; and much of what He explained, He explained again later on...as I didn't "get it" that first time or the next 50 times.
In the end, I KNEW I needed to trust the Lord and take Him at His Word; as He did, indeed, have that bigger picture, knew all and everything, and I knew next to nothing at that time.
Yet, when my husband finished his affair, I told him directly there would NOT be another time like this. I was wiser, more knowledgeable, and I told him I would KNOW if he did something like this again. I also said that I knew it was pretty bad to live with someone who KNEW not long after when he did something he was not supposed to do that would dishonor me.
I further told him that if I EVER saw these same signs again; I would show him the door, no questions asked, and kick him in the rear end as a going away present.
I was right to do that; as it gave him further incentive to understand that this woman was NOT dumb like he thought I was.
I have not seen this happen again; it's been over 10 years now; but it's not something I "look" for, as, over time, I regained my trust for my husband, but it was a long, hard road.
The difference now is that I will ASK questions if I see something that is NOT right; and I rely on my Intuition to let me know what's going on IF anything is going on.
And this is where I find "standing" so hard. I value loyalty and trust, more than anything. I have discarded "friends" for minor breaches. So what to do with exH? Even considering taking him back would mean I would have to change my VALUES--how does one do that, and can you feel good about it? Could I feel good about myself if I elevated a person who trashed me above all of the things that I value and am trying to teach my kids?
Why would elevate your spouse anyway? No one needs to be put on a pedestal; each person is HUMAN; therefore capable of making mistakes, and you know you can NEVER put your eggs in one basket when it comes to a person in your life, married or not.
You really would have so much to overcome if you even considered taking him back, considering what you say next:
And this is why I asked the question. Do you have a line that could not be crossed? I could have forgiven a sexual dalliance, I could have forgiven financial infidelity, drugs, alcohol, a sex addiction... But for me, I think when he decided he loved her enough to MARRY her, I had to come to the conclusion that nothing we had meant anything to him, because there was NOTHING that made him hesitate enough to look back and try to salvage even the RESPECT for what we had by leaving in a better way--she was worth sacrificing everything.
No, she was NOT worth sacrificing everything; but your ex-husband does NOT see that yet, but I guarantee you he will when it's way too late to turn back. What he did had NOTHING to do with you, and everything to do with himself; that is what drives how people respond or even react to various situations. If it hadn't been you, it would have been someone else; the problem lay in HIM, NOT YOU.
Your ex-husband could have opened his mouth, and worked things out with you; but he didn't choose to do that, and in his pain, angst, anger, and yes, confusion, he chose a path that led him away from you, as what he did was a total deal breaker for you.
I do NOT judge you for that; each person has their limits to what they can stand to bear.
Further down the line, he will see this was and is HIS LOSS; not necessarily yours. His MISTAKE in having run away, getting a divorce, and marrying his affair partner doesn't say that much for him; and I don't mean this in an insulting way.
I once saw my husband as no better than the dirt on the floor when he was doing the things he was doing; he contained a serious character fault; just as ALL MLC'ers who engage in affair contain this same kind of aspect. It's part of a running behavior that doesn't fix anything; and causes damage that often cannot be forgiven by the wronged spouse.
It's HARD to forgive adultery, emotional abuse, abandonment; and this is a process that takes a LONG time to reach IF it ever gets reached. This process is unique to each person; and I know from hard experience; it's very difficult to get there.
Thus far and ongoing, this is all food for thought; take what you need and leave the rest.
No matter the proccess, the dis-ease, etc. If the lack of character is such that he could put his kids in jeopardy and walk away, how could I ever know he wouldn't do it again? How could I ever know he completed his journey? And that is what I find so unsettling about all of it. I got through life knowing that as crazy as my parents can sometimes be, I KNOW they will always have my back. I don't believe his kids will ever feel that, and he doesn't even care, or he would not have done it--and that means I never really knew him, so where is the foundation?
I guess I don't have to remind you that your parents won't always be there for you, and there will come a time when you'll have to rely on YOURSELF...believe me when I say I speak from experience, as my parents are no longer on this earth. Nothing is ever certain in this life; and one must always expect the unexpected, as nothing is ever guaranteed.
It's hard to explain how you know when they finish..I know and remember still being together, the changes I saw that I'd never seen before; and these were positive; and his return of hope, and a looking forward, if you will, to the future, his change of attitude toward me that was consistent, becoming better as time went on. He spoke of many things futuristically; became more open with me; did not fear me when I raised an issue I needed to speak about to him, I have become very comfortable with him, as he's NOT the same person I knew going in, and yes, I still do remember.
The only other aspect I know for certain is that I KNEW when all and everything was faced, resolved, and truly healed within him; and I saw him emerge as a whole and healed individual.
Life will always have its share of problems, but I KNOW we won't face this again; it's done and finished for BOTH of us.
Lisa, you had your ex-husband's love during your marriage; it might have not been the right "kind" of love; but he did love you in the best way he knew how. Something in you most likely sensed it wasn't what it should have been. You were prompted to begin some changes within yourself, that triggered a response within him; but the growth in you was necessary to begin, or you would not have started changing.
Yet, you loved him, too; or the two of you would not have stayed together for so long...no one is ever where they don't choose to be or don't wish to be at any given time.
A marriage is built in the beginning on two aspects which isn't the best of foundations; but it's a start: "Conditional" Love and a TYPE of "conditional" commitment" to begin with; yet, this is not solid enough, you can't "love" someone through everything; they must stand for themselves, take responsibility for themselves; and most of all, they must learn to love themselves before they can really love you.
When the crisis strikes, the whole foundation crumbles and is destroyed because of selfishness and weakness on the part of the MLC spouse.
Most marriages before the crisis consists of "I love you as long as you do it MY way"..which is controlling and somewhat manipulating...yet, during the crisis your eyes are opened to the knowing that you really didn't know your spouse in the way you thought you knew them.
Blind trust doesn't count; because it's not a "true" open type of trust based on knowing your spouse well, and if you look back honestly; you'll see various times when their behavior was NOT as consistent as it should have been. We have all worn the rose colored glasses that hide all the truth; and most have had these type of illusions shattered which literally killed what love we once had. Now, whether love returns in a more mature aspect remains to be seen, as we must also learn to love and accept ourselves for what and who we are...only then can we truly love someone else.
Yet, one partner contains the most important aspect and this is TRUE commitment to see the couple through whatever happens; UNLESS there's a deal breaker that happens; as there was in your case.
Each person, again, has their limits in what they can and cannot deal with; this does not make them a "bad" person; not at all. I have so often spoken of growth that still must be achieved regardless of how the marital state comes out.
In all honesty, with a great deal of compassion, my heart goes out to you; you never asked for this to happen to you, but it did; and you've a great many aspects to work through before you'll heal as time will heal most of your wounds.
((((((((((((LisaLives))))))))))))))))
I don't know if anything that's been said has helped at all; but maybe it has. :) Like I said before, take what you need, and leave the rest. I saw the deep pain contained within your post; and responded to it. I'd give anything if I could heal everyone; but I know I can't, so I do what I can to help. :)
Much love,
HB
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I have to agree somewhat with Lisalives here...
Since I have had a very rocky R and M with Honey...I often wonder if after so many PA's ans sexual encounters honey has had in the past.....MLC or not, can he actually come out of this a whole TRUST worthy person? and will I EVER find trust again?
I thought I had found it after we remarried, to a certain degree...I don't think I ever trusted him fully as he has never really been transparent in all of the 24+ years we have been together. I have sat here today..wondering truly if I want to continue my stand into 2012.
I don't think honey will ever honor OUR m...old or new. I also do not ever think he will protect OUR marriage either.
I do not think this man is capable of actual love for another and therefor, why am I here? I worry that he will NEVER get through MLC...that he will be stuck in circles his whole life as proof by the many years we have spun the same scenarios.
I no longer FEEL any attachment to the man I have been with for all these years. I am so completely disconnected that I could walk away tomorrow and get on with MY life without HIM in it.
Trust IS important...but (for ME) and in my case. I don't think we EVER had a solid foundation...so where do you begin to build on something that was never there?? That's where I am at now.
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LG, I absolutely have gotten and expect the best of people. I could be horribly betrayed tomorrow by someone I love and trust, but I will not live in fear. I have many people in my life who have not always been honorable and I can't say I have always been honorable, but right now I am surrounded by people I love and trust and who love and trust me.
I have never knowingly betrayed a sacred trust that jeopardized a person I cared for, nor can I imagine ever doing so. And, because I don't want to live with suspicion and fear, I have never again extended trust to a person who betrayed me, even a little. There are far too many people in the world that have not burned bridges to me than to take a second or third chance on someone who has. That said, no one who has ever betrayed me has cared enough to ask forgiveness, and I did not value them enough to pursue it.
I believe in forgiveness, when wrongs are recognized, forgiveness is wanted, and remediation is offered. I don't believe forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves. Acceptance is, tolerance is, but forgiveness must be earned--not through olympic efforts, but by acknowledging a wrong, even if it was not intentional, and offering to make up for it. I have written LONG letters to exH asking forgiveness for all the possible things I could possibly have done to him and asked him to recognize what he has done to me and our family. He has neither forgiven me, acknowledged doing anything wrong, or accepted any recommendations to abate the betrayal.
If the old relationship and marriage are dead and R is a new start, then there must be trust. In order to trust exH again, he would have to seek forgiveness, and prove he intends to act honorably. Until I believe him, I am positive he should find me untrustworthy. When I imagine R and the difficulty I have seen others go through, I have a hard time imagining me "all in" until I see him make A LOT of effort He was the one person, besides my kids, that I would have given my life, without hesitation. It would take a LONG time before I could ever FEEL that again, but I would have to have that level of trust with him--exactly because of our history and our kids. I would never hold another person to that standard--perhaps that's not fair, and perhaps that's just me, but I would not want to have him back and have "less." If I were going to settle for less, why not just settle for another person?
I will always love him, but "standing" to me feels like continuing to sacrifice myself on the alter of his selfishness and betrayal. I partly wish I could be that heroic, but a part of me thinks it's insane. When I look at all the amazing people here and I imagine the fantasy assemblage of all their MLCers in a giant jail cell, I just want to kick the s#$% ouf of all of them--really--I find it all so RIDICULOUS. And it's exactly because I have empathy and compassion that I feel so angry and frustrated right now--look at what good people go through just to live in some situations, and our MLCers are moping around feeling sorry for themselves in ridiculous situations of their own making--seriously???????
And again I come back to--where is the point of no return, we all should have one. When I was a business owner, I knew I needed an exit plan, and I knew when it should be activated. We all have investment stop-loss plans, or should. We all think about end-of-life decisions. We generally know what we will and will not accept from our friends. Is marriage really SO sacred to you, your god, whoever, that you will sacrifice yourself forever--because I think "standing" or maintaining a commitment to someone who does not honor you in the same way is a sacrifice-- and a tragedy. We are relational beings and if you reserve a valuable part of yourself for someone who clearly does not value it, and it could benefit another human, then you are wasting your vital life force and energy--and that's a crime in a world where good people do without.
Anyway, I am getting down off my soap box now. I am in a bit of a "way" these days. I am just tired of dealing with all his s#(% and tired of the fact that all of you have to deal with even more--it's just a sad and ridiculous situation! And I am really not advocating not standing, but I am advocating for an MLC Inquisition process where I get to beat the crap out of anyone who acts ridiculous. They all need to be sent before an MLC panel where they will receive a contract: You have one year to get your emotional house in order, do what you will, report monthly for STD testing, pay your ordered support, maintain your job, and in a year report back on your progress. We expect results, or you will be sent to MLC work camp for remediation where you will participate in daily therapy and life skills education. Your family will grade you monthly and your release will be contingent on their approval... And if you get ridiculous you will be disciplined by Lisa who will not be wearing heels and leather, that is reserved for those who make progress... Yes, I do think it's a bit funny--MLC is a disease of wealth and leisure and we don'y have time for it anymore--our entire world is in a recession and we are wasting productivity on this inane navel gazing... That got a little off track, but I am posting it anyway, I feel a bit better...
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Lisa,
Loved that last paragraph! MLC inquisition is a great idea!
Thanks for giving me a laugh. It's the first one I've had today (and that's sad because it's my b-day.)
TMHP
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I hear ya, LisaLives... I really do. I don't advocate that anyone sacrifice themselves.... I don't feel I'm sacrificing MYSELF, but I am willing to sacrifice for my marriage and my family. I believe that's what it takes, whether there is betrayal or not. I also know that everyone is capable of great betrayal.. EVERYONE.
I find it hard to believe certain stories of forgiveness in the world myself... I think "I could not do that!!" One I read about recently was the Mother of a young man who was gunned down by a gang member... her son was an innocent bystander, the gangmember was enraged over a perceived rivalry over a GIRL... anyway... she was able to forgive the young man (18 at the time of the murder) for the loss of her son. She contacted him in prison for her "closure", and they became "friends"... the murderer was repentant.... but it was TOO LATE.... he couldn't turn back the hands of time.... he didn't SEE that the road he was traveling was headed for MURDER and PRISON... he admitted her son could have been ANYONE.... that it was all about HIM... he didn't UNDERSTAND the very REAL consequences...
Psychologists have found that teenage brains are not fully developed for understanding... while MLCers are NOT teenagers, their brain function HAS gone awry. I would simply NOT hold them to the standard of someone whose brains are fully developed and functional. Anyway, this woman became the murderers SURROGATE Mother.... something I don't believe I would be able to do... She claims she NEVER IMAGINED she could forgive her only child's murderer... but she has, and they have forged GOOD out of EVIL.... the young man has completed his prison sentence and fully understands the gift he has been given in life.... but he cannot change things. I'm sure he has asked for forgiveness.... but the woman forgave him LONG BEFORE HE ASKED FOR IT. This is what many standers believe... that they are CALLED TO FORGIVE for their OWN sakes.... when I felt that calling, it was a complete and utter surprise... yet, my Mother does NOT forgive those who transgress against her, and thus she is betrayed, or percieves betrayal OVER AND OVER.
Your arguments are succinct and valid, and totally appropriate for you. I'm sure it is difficult for you to understand why "standers" stand.... it must be a curiosity or you wouldn't be here. One cannot fully let go until one FULLY FORGIVES.... food for thought... and though I've forgiven, the transgressions are ongoing... and I have not fully let go. But I will be able to... because I'm able to forgive OW and my husband, doesn't mean I have to like what they are doing or that I don't get angry over it... I do. Forgiveness is for me. It has nothing to do with trust.
As for the MLC inquisition.... I would like to reinstate the Scarlet Letter... but make it for the MLCer AND the OW, LOL!!! Also, stocks where we can throw rotten fruit at them!!
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LisaLives,
I agree with your position wholeheartedly, but at the same time it is not for me (at least not at this time). I believe that anything is forgivable and that as Christians we are called to forgive just as we ask God's forgiveness for our transgressions. While I have not had to deal with what many on here have (at least not yet but I know it's likely), I have searched my soul to see if I could forgive a PA if it were to happen. I believe now that I could as I have had to ask forgiveness from my W for that very same thing 19 years ago. This may be the strongest test of my value system ever and one in which I hope I am not found wanting.
I read a post by HB many months ago about not taking what our spouses are doing personally. Her point was that what they do does not truly hurt us directly, but only to the extent that we allow it to. It hurts them both in the fact that it destroys trust others have in them as well as the offense to their own bodies they visit upon themselves. In truth, that is correct and not something I would have been able to see that way had I not been privy to HB's wisdom. If I choose to want (or accept if the opportunity ever happens) her back after a PA that is entirely my choice and should not be dependent upon her having defiled herself but rather on my capability to forgive and not judge her. And, if I wait for her to ask for forgiveness then I am making it conditional and therefore not agape as RCR and many others point out. We are called to forgive those who offend us whether they ask for it or not. Asking for it is for their own penance, and it truly doesn't affect us at all as we have no way of knowing if they are sincere or not other than our own instincts. In summary, we forgive for us. We ask for forgiveness for us. They are the same in that regard, IMHO.