Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Trustandlove on May 11, 2012, 11:56:03 PM
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Hello, all,
I had dinner with a female friend, acquaintance, member of our wider social circle, whatever I can call her right now, who is in full-blown MLC. She herself describes herself as being 3 1/2years into it, but of course doesn't use the term MLC or anything like it. She kicked her H out 2 1/2 years ago.
I want to write about this coherently, because I really do think it is interesting for us on the other side to see what they are going through, and the ways they choose to behave to try to find what they want. And yes, the justifications they use for it.
In a nutshell, she is just over 50, a psychiatrist by profession, one who works with very seriously disturbed people, both with the health service and in private practice. Three daughters, one preparing for university entrance, the others slightly younger teens.
She married her H I think 22 years ago; perhaps 23. She hasn't divorced him at this point. Her H is a year or two younger than her; he came from abroad to be with her.
I need to get my thoughts in order so that I can write properly, but what really did come out of this was that she has to go through this, all the way through, and that there isn't any way to determine the outcome. For a long time she blamed her H totally; she is now slowly moving away from blaming him completely and starting to talk about what she is learning about herself, but I can see she is nowhere near the end of the journey.
What is also interesting for me is that she knows EXACTLY where I stand on this, and I've never shied away from throwing truth spears -- darts wouldn't begin to cover it. So I was actually pretty amazed that she even called and asked to see me, but she did.
I also learned that listening to what she's trying to say is important, and that it's OK to ask questions to draw out her feelings, without every question having to contain a truth dart. She DOES need to feel safe talking about it. And I know that she can't do that with her H, and it's probably best that she doesn't. She talked about how horrible an atmosphere there had been at home before they separated, that even others noticed it; I did agree that some space was a good thing, so as not to do further damage.
Her H was standing, again without using that word, for quite a while; he does now have a GF.... don't know where that is going, though.
She's also had one BF (or OM, as we would say here); she didn't have him at BD (don't know if they had one BD, seems it was more drawn out....) it's much more recent. She's broken up with him now. He was part of her 'journey'.
she is at an interesting point; she's sort of starting to see that someone else isn't responsible for her happiness, but still thinks that her H was absolutely the wrong person.... that she didn't love him the way she thinks she should (claims that she loved this OM in a much deeper way... yada, yada). I was careful to say that her feelings were real.
I found that it really was important to suspend any reactions -- what she is feeling is real, even though it may be based on a false assessment of reality. Because I'm not emotionally involved it was easier to do; I also had to tread carefully with what could seem like psycho-babble, as of course that is her profession, not mine.
At any rate she has asked to see me again reasonably soon...
I'm still feeling tired, so will write more on this later; I want to describe so much. We talked for over 2 hours; I'll write as I get time and as things come back to me.
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Hey T and L,
Thank you so much for sharing this and I look forward to hearing more. I have to say,,though, that it's not exactly encouraging news given both the time frame as well as the fact she still thinks her H was a mistake. I'll wait to hear more and hopefully it will help me to have a better understanding of my W. I am curious as to why your friend is not D yet.
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I need to get my thoughts in order so that I can write properly, but what really did come out of this was that she has to go through this, all the way through, and that there isn't any way to determine the outcome.
My W spoke very little after BD before vanishing but one thing she did say was, "I can't not do this." There are very powerful impulses at the root of this nuttiness (I'm probably stating the obvious).
Thank you for this T&L. It is helpful to gain insight into the MLCer's thinking.
Very interesting that your acquaintance is a mental health care professional. Clearly knowledge is not enough to prevent this destructive behaviour.
My W's MLC coincided with menopause. T&L, has your friend mentioned menopause?
honour
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More is coming.... I'm just not there yet.
Regarding menopause; I'm actually surprised at myself that I didn't ask. She is certainly of the age; she did say "it's very interesting being over 50", though. It sounds like I'll see her again at the end of next month, so I'll do my best to remember to turn the subject to that; not difficult between women "of a certain age" :)
I'm not trying to be encouraging or discouraging regarding the timeframe; just stating what is going on with her.
Regarding considering her H a mistake; well, she certainly never used to; I think it's all part of the process. When she wanted to separate from him I remember her saying "who knows, maybe we'll miss each other so much...." I think she might even have been hoping to miss him so much, but of course she had/has no idea of what she's going through herself.
I have no idea why she hasn't tried to divorce her H; actually, I noticed that she still wears her wedding ring, at least I think it's that ring. Theirs weren't the standard kind, they were quite distincitve. Her H wore his until a little while ago.
I also know that she, at least for a long time, depended on him to do all sorts of things for her, and definitely still expects him to hop to it and take care of their girls when she can't or when she wants to do something else.
But more later....
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My W's MLC coincided with menopause.
I would say that this is quite common.
Not a necessity but a good probability.
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I remember my W saying "I have to do this" shortly after BD, and I thought she meant the D. I asked her why she had to D me and she just looked at me like I was speaking Klingon or something and didn't answer.
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I remember my W saying "I have to do this" shortly after BD, and I thought she meant the D. I asked her why she had to D me and she just looked at me like I was speaking Klingon or something and didn't answer.
They have no idea why they have to do it, but they have to do it. It's confused thinking born of powerful impulses.
sbreeze, a female MLCer on Amy's site would say that they don't know why they have to do it, they just have to do it. Further in to the process for her, sbreeze felt that abuse she had experienced as a child was a major contributing factor.
So imagine the scenario, you've been carrying damage and trauma around with you for a couple of decades perhaps. You've kept up an effective facade to stop people seeing the "real you" and then at mid-life/menopause the many triggers kick in at the same time as your body's biology changes and floods your blood stream and brain with chemicals/hormones of the like you hadn't experienced since a teenager. It's a re awakening, you see things clearly at last and off you go down the Yellow Brick Road in search of something you already have but no longer know it.
honour
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My H used the words "I can't do this anymore" at BD- referring to the marriage/family.
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Yep, I got "I can't do this anymore" too, also without any explanation as to what "this" was. We were in dire financial straits at the time, so I assumed he had just become completely cold and was just giving up and cutting his losses and letting me take the fall. In a weird way, MLC has actually been a more comforting reality than my immediate assumption.
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One of the things that she did say last night was that she "just couldn't do it any more".... It IS very powerful stuff. Her expression was pained as she said that.
The background:
She watched her mother die of a horrible cancer when she was around 20, which goes without saying was grim. Her father had a lot of FOO issues -- he was beaten a lot as a child; there were a lot of issues between him and her; I don't know if he in some way blamed her for losing her mother, or for not being her mother, or what, but there were many, many unresolved issues there. Her father remarried; there was another child who was autistic, so she never got much of her father.
Her father died a few years ago; she never resolved her relationship with him, and that has always been very, very painful for her. She told me a bit more about him last night; next time I'm going to have to ask her more directly.
So right away that sets things up.
Next: she did as she was 'supposed' to do (I believe this was to do with her father) -- studied medicine, later specialised in psychiatry. A long, arduous road. She was always interested in sociology; womens' issue in particular, and she did take some time out (after she was already married) to do a degree course in this. But she went back to the psychiatry, rising to a high-level position with the health authority.
So we can see the accommodation going on....
And more: we have a unique cultural background, which she is part of, but didn't grow up with the way for example I did. She discovered all this in her 20's, and went wild for it. It really pumped her up, she became very involved, both socially and in political activities.
Through this she met her H. So in some ways, at least she now says, he was part of that for her.
I knew them when they first got together, they were inseparable. Totally infatuated. Now that's not a bad thing at that age, and of course they did settle down. He moved countries to be here with her, he had to navigate that road. He did his degree here (as a mature student), started his job, and so on. They were I think both must under 30, or perhaps she was 30 already, when they married, so not young and silly any more.
They didn't have children right away; eldest daughter is now 18, so it wasn't a case of jump straight into family life, either.
So imagine the scenario, you've been carrying damage and trauma around with you for a couple of decades perhaps. You've kept up an effective facade to stop people seeing the "real you" and then at mid-life/menopause the many triggers kick in at the same time as your body's biology changes and floods your blood stream and brain with chemicals/hormones of the like you hadn't experienced since a teenager. It's a re awakening, you see things clearly at last and off you go down the Yellow Brick Road in search of something you already have but no longer know it.
Honour, I do think a lot of this applies in the sitch I'm describing. She has always carried around a huge amount of trauma; even my H used to say that she was messed up, and that was years ago. In truth, she really had sorted all that by having a loving H and family, and now off she goes.....
More later, gotta run....
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Thank you so much for posting "the other side of the story." It is interesting to see how someone in MLC thinks. I am not sure I buy into the past issues argument for driving their behaviors. Lots of people have things that have happened in their past, myself included, that don't do stuff like what our MLCers have done. Is there something in their brain chemistry that makes them less resilient to what happens in their lives and consequently sends their flight or fight response into overdrive? I don't doubt that they think their reality and thought processes are real and true. I work in the mental health field too, and have seen people who are psychotic think that what they see and think is real when in reality it couldn't be further from the truth. Too bad there isn't some drug they could take that would bring them back.
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My ex-wife also said she had to do this alone.
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Interesting...i'm 27 months past BD..H living with OW..words i heard in Nov were ' ..was on a trainwreck and couldn't do anything about it'.. 'i know the grass isn't greener'.... "it's only a month by month arrangement'.... what can you believe? he's still there..i saw him a couple of days ago for the first time in 2 or 3 months..never said a word about his 'arrangement'..just looked stuck.
His weakness is the chemical high..the love drug...and it has worn off. i can see that. He says he doesn't blame me, it is all about him, he knows he's selfish and he totally chased the drug. Maybe it's just 'affair' stuff and not MLC for my H..i get confused about that sometimes..he's very stubborn, he thinks life is linear and you can't go back (he said that a long time ago so maybe changed his mind about that or won't remember saying it.) I don't get their definition of 'happy'..
r2d21111 - agree..i've had much trauma in my past to deal with....H had his share of a dysfunctional middle class family with a fairly emotionally distant mother ... my parents died of cancer (mum when i was 17..knew nothing about it until near end as my dad kept info from me) then dad died from cancer when i was 26.. had a home invasion/sexual abuse...we all have unresolved issues with family or whatever..i have tried to sort through my issues over the years; been incredibly loyal and supportive and trusting of H. He knew so much about my inner world, my vulnerabilities..yet betrayed me and our boys..he was consumed by something so huge I could see it literally draining him..and he lacked the maturity to make healthy choices..reverted to teenage behaviour.
I think i had my own crisis in my early thirties..when i became pregnant with first child..i thought it was hormones...i don't know..but i fled for some months..didn't want anything to do with H (we had been friends for a couple of years before starting our relationship)..could hardly talk to him on the phone. i knew i was being horrible and it was an awful dark feeling of despair and disconnect. Gradually i came out of it and i returned to the city my H was in when our son was 6 weeks old. (we have two boys..now 22 and 20) Don't we all face some sort of crisis in our lives?
T& L...it's good your friend will talk..if she is still technically in replay, i agree that what she feels maybe real to her at that moment but not necessarily 'the truth'...maybe that comes once completely out of the tunnel..completed the journey? do MLCers tell others how they feel at any given time what's going on for them yet not their spouses ... and we tend not to ask questions (is that because the answer could be different on any given day.. or we don't want to be seen to be pressuring them?) are they talking deep and meaningfully to someone else (OP) about their 'feelings'...somehow i don't think so in my H's case. Of course they function in the world, get on with work etc and maybe others see them as 'normal' but we see something else?
I was so tempted to ask my H questions about his state of being..talk about the damage it's done to our boys, yet i could see such a far away look in his eyes i thought 'his hurt/pain is greater to him at this point ..his self obessession rules..he's avoiding facing how to resolve what he's done and who he is"...but that was my take on it.
My last point..if MLC/affairs has been triggered by FOO issues then my children, who now have this in their history will be facing some triggers in their future..i see it already by the way they have suppressed so much..the hurt and the rejection. The father they once thought of so highly is no longer that same man. So very sad.
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The subject of FOO issues comes up a lot on this forum; we're all looking for reasons for this MLC...
I just wrote her background for information; I wasn't intending to say "this is what caused it". In my own case, it's me rather than my MLC H who has the messed-up FOO, by that reckoning it's me who should be having the crisis.
What she didn't talk about at all was her H, except in passing. In was as if she didn't consider him part of this at all. That would chime with my own experience, and with a lot of what is written here -- with what DGU says, that his W said she had to do this herself.
I didn't ask her outright if she realised how much she was hurting him, I may do that next time. Her take is that "they" struggled for a long time, and the separation was better, as there was no longer the toxic atmosphere at home. The few times she mentioned him was to say that she didn't think he was being firm enough with their daughters.
I had heard the other side to that a couple of years ago, that his eldest D said that he didn't seem like her father any more -- not that he was behaving like the MLCer, but that he was no longer the strong force that he had been. My own take is that he was so at sea himself that he couldn't be. And as he had been forced to move out, didn't see his daughters daily, he could no longer have that say in their daily lives. And his W did make him move out. He spent a long, long time appeasing her, doing everything she wanted, so he agreed to leave as well. (clearly he hasn't read the advice about not doing so here....).
Now my friend of course interpreted it as him not being firm, not being a strong enough father, not enforcing rules enough, and so on. How he feels just doesn't enter in to it for her -- so much so that I didn't even ask if she thought about how he felt. I have a feeling that if I had, she'd just say that he couldn't go on, either.
I did ask her last year sometime why she made him go; she fed me a story. (justifying herself...). She also said that she felt the girls needed her, as their mother, for the female influence. That they needed their father all the time as well didn't enter into it for her; she thought that as long as they saw him it didn't really matter. She justified it by saying that it was better for them that there wasn't the bad atmosphere at home. She continues to say that. I DID challenge that; she didn't like that.
As to what she's been doing:
This is the yucky part; this is the part that the LBS has the hardest time with.
She didn't have OM when she left, but she definitely planned to find one. I remember her telling me 2 years ago that she'd "be a lot happier if she had a boyfriend".
Well, she's had one, but seems to have broken up with him now. I didn't ask how long he had been around; my guess is since sometime last year. I had already heard through someone else that her daughters had thought he was awful; she says that she felt such love for him like she'd never felt before, that she couldn't accept less than that. This is, of course, infatuation -- I did point that out. She said yes, of course, but there was so much more.... she gave heart and soul to him, she said.
She finished it because he was so very jealous, she said. She said it was interesting to feel that kind of deep love, yet realise that she couldn't stay with him. All in all no sense at all.... so very MLC.
She wants to find someone else.
I know that is hard for the LBS here to read; I'm not trying to say that she has made a final decision, what I really saw was someone deep in it. She has a lot that is 'under control'; she functions well at work, she does deal with a lot of her daughters' things, and so on, but in herself, she still hasn't a clue. She is experimenting.
She said she was learning about herself, about her wild side, which was a revelation. Now I didn't know her before she met her H, but I've heard that she had a wild side then. So this would tally with what so many MLCers do -- go back to that.
More later...
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Is there something in their brain chemistry that makes them less resilient to what happens in their lives and consequently sends their flight or fight response into overdrive?
Yes, that is precisely what we I am saying. They are able to keep a lid on their demons until their brain chemistry (menopausal hormone release) changes. [It may be completely different for the male MLCer and I may be completely wrong but to date this is where all that I have experienced and learnt has brought me to.]
July 2010, (BD was August 2010, by July she had already gone off the deep end but no one knew at that time) a friend was out walking with my W. Friend says to W, " how is it that your brother is an alcoholic, your ister has her problems but you are so sound?" W replied saying, " I concentrated on being a good wife and mother." [Note the past tense of concentrate.] She may have done something dreadful but I thank God she kept the lid on it until our children were of an age not to be damaged. Who knows what restaint and courage that took? She may appear to the world to be bad but she may be a hero at the same time.
Lots of people have things that have happened in their past, myself included,
I have been subject to some hideous sh!te myself, sh!te that would have finished many people off but for me, the above theory still holds water.
I have a habit of chewing my lip. I'd rather not do it, it's a stupid habit. Can I stop doing it? seemingly not. It's an explicable compulsion. Is MLC a similar compulsion? Don't get me wrong I'm not giving an MLCer a free pass to bad behaviour; we all have free will. But if I have free will, why can't I stop chewing my lip if I have free will?
honour
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Thanks for telling your friend’s part of the story. Your friend seems to me a mild MCLer, not one who has gone into too much wildness (even if she says she is finding her wild side).
I’m also one of those who thinks childwood/past unresolved issues or past problems cannot be the only reason. Many here, myself included, have had it worst than our MCLers when we were kids/ young. The problems and issues from the past alone do not cause the crisis. Maybe more the way you react to those problems, once they come up, or to the feeling that hit you in pre-MLC.
I don’t find it shocking that your friend wants to find someone else, after all that is what MCLers do, they want to find someone to be happy with. Since they were not happy with us and, for the ones of have had OW1/OM1 and that did not work out, off they go wanting to find someone else.
I did not got “I can’t do this anymore”, I got “I can only do this (go clubbing and djing – things I have never heard were is life interest or want) now, then I will be too old. You can do your studies until you die”.
My husband did not grow to be what his parents expect of him. He got to do what he wanted. In fact, I found very little reasons for my husband to have had a MLC. Except, perhaps, the wild thing. He was always much well behaved then I was when we were kids, his family gave him much less freedom than mine gave me. I have no crazy wild needs left to burn, maybe he does… He never told me he was learning anything about himself. Not to say he isn’t.
What my husband had told me, when OW1 was no more was that, even if he knew it had been the wrong decision, he had to leave and get OW1 because he felt he was dying. He also mentioned that there was too much strive in the marriage at the time. Of course it was. He was already seeing OW1, I was suspicious there was someone else, he was depressed and sleeping very little, exploding with any little thing.
What really worries me about your friend is that she is a disturbed person looking after and treating other very disturbing people.
I understand that she needs someone to talk to and feel save when talking. Lucky she is calling you and talking to you. Much better than with someone who has no idea what MCL is and may end up giving all the wrong advice, not validating feeling, and encouraging wrong behaviour. I also agree that their feelings, even if twisted by the circumstances, are real at the time. The other thing my husband told me when OW1 was no more was that the rage and anger had made him become blind and forget that he was hurting me. That he let that got on the way.
Honour, menopausal hormonal release only could only apply to women in menopause or peri-menopause. It could not apply for a man or a woman who is not near/or menopause.
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In some moments of lucidity a few years back my H also said that he hadn't thought one minute about how much he was hurting me, and that he had then realised that his actions had hurt me very much indeed. But that lucidity was short-lived; seems he was looking to allieviate his guilt.
He's also since gone back to saying that whatever we had that was good was so long ago that it wasn't worth remembering; and yes, like you, of course their was tension in the last year or so, as he had already begun serious replay activities.... during that lucid time he admitted that he had just been so consumed by anger towards me and even said sorry for treating me so badly for so long, but again, whatever window opened got closed again very quickly. Again, he was looking to alleviate guilt.
Guilt was one feeling that my friend didn't express; I do wonder if she was feeling some when she said that she just couldn't have continued, or perhaps she was feeling some when she was justifying why she thought things were better for their daughters this way.
I don't know if her MLC could be classified as mild; it could be what she shows to me. Earlier on in her crisis I'd have called her a clinger; I think it's just plain boomerang now, as she "explores" further. I think she's good at compartmentalising, so that's why she's able to keep her professional life separate.
I also think she, despite knowing that she did all the heavy academic stuff because it was expected of her, somehow feels that her H doesn't measure up -- he isn't as super-academic, and he doesn't force it upon their daughters. I hesitate to say more, because I just don't know enough.
She said that she was having a hard time accepting that her youngest wasn't as bright academically as the older two, who are brilliant that way. She blamed her H for not insisting the youngest one work more (while saying that she was so busy with oldest one right now that youngest was effectively living with her H....)
So very, very messed up, in my view, and I actually don't think it's so mild. Milder in outright crazy behaviour, perhaps, but I think the crisis isn't mild at all. I do know that her H feels the monster, though; he feels she's trying to keep him from being involved with her eldest's academic things, and so on, which does seem to be the case.
I know the men reading this won't find it encouraging -- I can't say "well, she's seeing the light". What is happening is a very slow process. She says she is happy her H has someone else, although her body language wasn't quite in agreement. I think she does still expect him to be "there" for her, no matter what.
One thing that I have noticed, looking from the outside, is that her H has never been particularly firm; for a long time his policy was to appease, to say OK to everything, to be indispensable. A bit more backbone from him wouldn't go amiss. And by that I don't mean being nasty, I mean what we say here.
The general opinion of those who know something of this is that she is going about doing whatever the he** she feels like, and he has to deal with it. And everyone sees their girls feeling the effects.
I don't know how "well" I did with her; how much she felt safe vs how many truth spears I threw; I've of course since thought of all sorts of things I wanted to say; perhaps another opportunity will arise.
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I have to bookmark this one so I can catch up on the info....
very interesting to hear what's going on inside
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Actually Honour, you can STOP chewing your lip! You simply stop. I had a bad habit of picking at the side of my thumb until it bled with my index finger. No idea how it happened, what caused it, something that started in the winter time, inside my mitts. I would take off my mitts and my thumb would be pulpy and bloody.
I simply stopped. I employed all kinds of techniques, I remember tucking my thumb into the padded part of my palm... I remember, grabbing my hand and telling myself, outloud... STOP, Stayed! Don't do that! It took time, but every time I noticed myself doing it, I admonished myself, positioned my thumbs differently, whatever.
I don't do it anymore and have not done it for YEARS. Funny thing, I found myself doing it again a few weeks ago, after NOT DOING IT FOR A GOOD 20+ YEARS... I shook my hands and told myself, STOP STAYED... don't start that nonsense again.
We can control our actions. We have FREE WILL, if we choose NOT to exercise it, then so be it, but lets not fool ourselves... we can CONTROL anything, if we want to badly enough. Something that is forced on us, rape, beating, a betraying spouse... NOT UNDER OUR CONTROL... but habits, cheating, smoking, swearing, whatever, all are UNDER our personal control.
hugs Stayed.
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T&L
Thanks for posting. I am also an LBS who has moved out of the house because of the toxic environment. I am D now, but in many ways I see my ex just like this friend of yours. To me, being the one who lost a wife, and exiled from my home and children, the MLC is anything but mild.
I was also appeasing, but will not be anymore. Not sure what else I can do to be more Firm. Sad that years later, she still feels that they were wrong for each other.
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Honour, menopausal hormonal release only could only apply to women in menopause or peri-menopause. It could not apply for a man or a woman who is not near/or menopause.
Hormones are part of every MLC.
Men go through menopause starting at age 20 and lasting until 70
Women also have post partum at earlier ages and perimenopause can last for years.
For some people this is all just a blip on the MAP.
Others go into crisis.
So I believe Honour is correct.
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Honour is absolutely spot on.
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OP, unbalanced hormones are part of MLC, but I’m not certain if it is the hormones on themselves, or just the hormones that cause the crisis. I think it is hormones, several of them, not menopausal hormonal in particular, or just that hormone. If I’m not mistaken men have andropause… Ok, I’m being picky here…
Also, if the crisis was just a matter of hormones it would be easy to treat, all it was needed was to balance the hormones.
Trust, on some of his lucidity periods husband have said, several times, that he could not stop, otherwise he would start thinking and that, if he start thinking, he could not carry on, he would not be able to do what he is doing. So I know why he can’t stop keep himself busy, he will start to think. And when he will start to think… well…
Not certain if they always, and at every point in the crisis, express guilt. I have not seem my husband express guilt (or what I identify as guilt) in a long, long time. Maybe in over 4 years. He did express a lot of guilt in the beginning and right after OW1 was no more. Since OW2 turned up he never did it again.
You’re right, you are seeing what your friend lets you see so she can look “mild” when she is with you and not being mild at all with her husband. My husband is not so good at compartmentalising. He has meshed is professional & social & OW2. Everything is connected with the clubbing world. Not sure if he is able to tell things apart…
But your friends husband was not a super academic before, was he’ So he already did not measure up… Or he was, by then, the right balance to her over academic self…
Not all children are alike and not all can be brilliantly in academic terms. Also, some children cannot work more or more they work they will never be academically brilliant. Loosk like your friend wants all her children to her carbon copies…
Probably your friend is not seeing the light just like our husbands are not seeing the light. Some MCLers take many, many years to see the light. Your friend may end up finding herself husband less. He has a girlfriend. Not saying he will be with this girlfriend but if he founds someone he likes he may decide to keep her and when your friend’s crisis end it may be too late.
But the husband has been himself for ages, it was never that much of a problem, until the crisis broke. Like with all MCLers there is always something that the LBS always have/was that was never a problem until the crisis broke.
She goes doing whatever she wants just like all other MCLers, we have to deal with it and the children, finances, LBS health suffer with it. They’re really, really, selfish. Wish there was a way of sorting the crisis out or shorten it … But there is none we know of…
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Dug up this thread again; I recently met a friend who knows this family very well, and to whom their d's often turn for comfort and advice.
Apparently this MLCer keeps getting worse in her behaviour; from what I've been told even her daughters now think she's nuts. One example was her excitedly telling her D18 about new men she had met, and so on. That D18 wailed that it should be HER telling her mother things like that, not the other way around.
Of course she presented to me a fairly "normal" face, even while I was hearing all of what I recounted. But what her family sees is very different.
What is sad here is that her H seems to be in a new relationship, and I don't think their d's are that happy about it, even if the new woman isn't a terribly harpy. Of course, the girls either don't express their feelings, or they get dismissed as "normal when these things happen". This friend of the family is very concerned that this new woman is going to get hurt, because she doesn't think that the H is really healed, and that he's just looking for his own type of band-aid.
This to me highlights the importance of one parent remaining sane throughout this, and being a rock for the children. And that lot falls to us, the LBS....
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Apparently this MLCer keeps getting worse in her behaviour; from what I've been told even her daughters now think she's nuts. One example was her excitedly telling her D18 about new men she had met, and so on. That D18 wailed that it should be HER telling her mother things like that, not the other way around.
Of course she presented to me a fairly "normal" face, even while I was hearing all of what I recounted. But what her family sees is very different.
What is sad here is that her H seems to be in a new relationship, and I don't think their d's are that happy about it, even if the new woman isn't a terribly harpy. Of course, the girls either don't express their feelings, or they get dismissed as "normal when these things happen". This friend of the family is very concerned that this new woman is going to get hurt, because she doesn't think that the H is really healed, and that he's just looking for his own type of band-aid.
Thanks for these insights T&L.
It always seems to be the family, the ones who love them the most who bear the brunt of the MLCer's madness. The MLCer somehow put on "a fairly "normal" face" for everyone else.
This to me highlights the importance of one parent remaining sane throughout this, and being a rock for the children. And that lot falls to us, the LBS....
Even with my children at the ages they are I feel they are content that I haven't gone looking for a bandaid. The parents breaking up is a shock for the children at any age. They need time to come to terms the new family landscape. The LBS finding a new partner too soon after the break up compounds the children's shock.
honour
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The LBS finding a new partner too soon after the break up compounds the children's shock.
honour
100 % in agreement here my friend.
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Do you think maybe the people who were in denial about there past have the the hard time with it at midlife? I know my husband was. I knew mine wasnt functional.
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The LBS finding a new partner too soon after the break up compounds the children's shock.
honour
100 % in agreement here my friend.
Hell, I will go further then that. Finding a new partner too soon after the break up, compounds our OWN PERSONAL PROBLEMS as well. WE are simply not HEALED enough to become a PARTNER to anybody. Something like this, does unbelievable damage, damage that if not treated and handled with great care can plague and haunt one FOREVER!
Sorry, I was not willing to risk that. I did not want to destroy/hurt/effect anybody else. I did not want to cause any more damage then had already been done. For me, I definitely had to feel that I was healed and recovered from this, before I would have EVEN considered having another serious or heck even "casual" relationship.
In my very soul, I knew this... I STILL DO! In my opinion...we have choices too... so choose very, very wisely!
hugs Stayed
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The LBS finding a new partner too soon after the break up compounds the children's shock.
honour
100 % in agreement here my friend.
Hell, I will go further then that. Finding a new partner too soon after the break up, compounds our OWN PERSONAL PROBLEMS as well. WE are simply not HEALED enough to become a PARTNER to anybody. Something like this, does unbelievable damage, damage that if not treated and handled with great care can plague and haunt one FOREVER!
Sorry, I was not willing to risk that. I did not want to destroy/hurt/effect anybody else. I did not want to cause any more damage then had already been done. For me, I definitely had to feel that I was healed and recovered from this, before I would have EVEN considered having another serious or heck even "casual" relationship.
In my very soul, I knew this... I STILL DO! In my opinion...we have choices too... so choose very, very wisely!
hugs Stayed
I have to 'fess up' here and say that I did exactly this. While I think the kids were/are OK, it was a big mistake for me personally. It was a sticking plaster on an open wound, but I didn't see it that way to begin with. It took a couple of months to realise the mistake. I'm pretty ashamed of it to be honest.
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I have to 'fess up' here and say that I did exactly this. While I think the kids were/are OK, it was a big mistake for me personally. It was a sticking plaster on an open wound, but I didn't see it that way to begin with. It took a couple of months to realise the mistake. I'm pretty ashamed of it to be honest.
My dear arp1, you deserve a MEDAL for volunteering that information. You have totally validated something that I feel "CAN NOT BE STRESSED ENOUGH"... do not become involved until you FEEL you are recovered and healthy enough to seek out a new relationship.
A bandaid won't fix our problems, probably the 6 million dollar rebuild wouldn't do the job. Time is our friend. As OP has stressed over and over and over again... we have been GIVEN a gift of time. Squander it, at your own risk!
Thank you for being brave enough to share your experience arp1. Hugs, hugs and more hugs... Stayed
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I decided to put this here even if it isn't entirely relevant; it's not about the same woman.
Oh -- before I go further, I'll just say that the woman I've been talking about in this thread HAS contacted me again and asked to meet; not sure if I'll be able to right now, but it's interesting that she asks.
Anyway, what I wanted to write about was someone I've mentioned every now and again -- I might have put it in some MLC stories, but I can't remember now. It's a woman I know who was/is OW -- she took her man from his family with three children now many years ago. It's been rocky, as we'd expect. She's had 3 children, the oldest is something like 15. From what I can gather he never really wanted them, he wanted to be her baby.
At any rate, she just today told me that they have separated. She is paying for being OW, in a big way. From what I know he never divorced his wife; I don't know if he's tried to go back but have a sneaking suspicion that that door is closed.
I'm only writing this as an example of how life isn't great and wonderful for these OW, even if they have the baby (or more...). She's had to do the earning as well as the child-rearing, not fun. And that was even while he was still with her.
I can't bring myself to be friends with this woman, although I am cordial, and as her children aren't at fault and one of her is friends with one of mine, I have contact occasionally.
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My H now was my "quick fix" I was engaged to him before my first marriage was finalized. They make you wait 3 months for a D (cool down period I believe) in our state. First H was a college boyfriend who was beautiful, but had sex with many, many, many women. As you may guess, he cheated on me (with his assistant manager who was my friend too). We were only married 16 months but engaged 2 years and dated in college. No kids, thank goodness. He never remarried but had children with a woman in TX and come home to WA to sleep with another one for a long time.
If I had to do it over again I would have made myself take a solid year and just work on me. Instead I rescued my current H from a $hitty relationship right away. I worked with my current H and EVERYONE loved him. He was so quite, shy, tall, smart. We had been friendly and flirty (as everyone was in this young software com). I jumped right from the fire to the flames. And I'm paying for it 18 years and 3 kids later. It all catches up to us I guess.
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Being OW/OM will never be easy on the mid-long run. They have separate and/or divorce from us, no reason why they would not separate/divorce from OW/OM.
Makes sense that man first wife (or still wife) as closed her door.
Well, I was 18 when I meet my husband, then boyfriend and he was 17. So, not sure what I’m paying for… but if I knew what I know now, that he was going to have a MLC, I would had not married him.
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Well, I was 18 when I meet my husband, then boyfriend and he was 17. So, not sure what I’m paying for… but if I knew what I know now, that he was going to have a MLC, I would had not married him.
We were barely 19 when we met. I struggle a lot with that question - would I have married him had I known? Of course, it is a moot point since I had no idea he was capable of this. We had many great years together but the pain of the last 3.5-4 has made that so hard to remember.
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We did not knew they were going to have a MLC. We've has some great 20 years together and 10 of marriage. If I knew he was going to have the crisis I would be fine with the 7 years of dating and the 3 of coabitation. No marriage.
Also, if I knew it was going to be as it has been has soon as OW1 was a certanty I would had divorced him at once. Would not have done what I did, thinking rushing into divorce when you're on a huge emotional turmoil is not a good think. It is not a good thing but not have done it was much worst for me.
So, maybe that is what I'm paying for, not had divorced him pretty fast.
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Hey, just wanted to say I was 19 and he was 22 and if I knew then what I know now I don't think I would have married him either. Whatever great things that went before have all been tarnished for life now. It would take a miracle for me to be able to see things how I saw them before.
Only in hindsight can you equate the niggly things that used to get to you about the mlc'er to the mask they have been wearing to hide who they really were. I know it was a self preservation thing but I feel it was deception all the same. Did we really know who we married?
Sad but true.
Sd
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superdog, we knew them as well as it is possible to know someone. 20 or more years is a lot of time. No one can hide their true self for that long, let alone in intimacy.
The crisis changed them. And, yes, it tarnished what was before. Even if I know we were happy and things were, overall, good. But that was long, long ago.
And whatever fantastic times may be ahead I don't think they erase the crisis ones. Of course this depends of how deep their crisis was and of how much damage they caused.
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I may just be referencing my own h. He said to me not so long ago that he never let me see who he was and the -ve things I saw were a slip and mistake on his part and that I was never meant to see that.
This is the reason my h is having such a hard internal crisis because he lived so far away from who he really is. He has lived a stressful existence up till now trying to be mr lovable and used some guy he created who was fun and bubbly. He said he used to cry when he was alone. Never once did I see him cry or did he mention or show he was affected by anything. So did I know him, no not the real guy. I fell in love with the persona he created.
My h is PA and avoids true intimacy. So I feel a bit cheated to be honest.
I know why he did this, he knows too and this crisis can only be a good thing for my h in this respect IF he recognises the real cure.
How can someone return to a self confessed fake persona?
Sd
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With mine, he also claims I "never really knew him" in our 21 years, which is b.s. It's MLC speak. One of the things he left behind were years worth of journals. I even told him I was reading them, and he didn't care. In them he is the man I met and married, loved forever, always will. Telling us we didn't know them is trying to incite distance. They're trying to motivate us to be the ones to make the moves, to be so angered by the 'big lie' that we run away, leaving them blameless.
But it's true, we didn't know Monster (whether it's Monster, Puppy Monster, or Charming Monster, from the articles). It's no different than if the Incredible Hulk told Bruce Banner's wife, "You never knew me!". Same blood coursing through the veins...but that's a different being talking. And Monster would tell us anything to keep possession of our spouses.
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Mine never said I did not knew him instead that “I have never understood him”. Rubbish. Not only I know I did but I have tons of letters and e-mails that prove I did. Plus, if I did not understand him how did we manage to do creative/artistic joint projects that depend of full understandment for 20 years? We had got to the point when no words were need, we understand each other just with a look, a smile, a gesture.
I have seen mine being frail and cry many times since we meet. Oddly I never saw him cry during the months pre-BD when he was already involved with OW1. He keep writing her how he was crying when he read her letters but I think he was crying of despair and depression. And mine knew he was depressed. He told me so pre and post BD.
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To be fair there couldn't be more distance at this point anyway!
Love the hulk analogy! I only wish the green guy I get was a bit easier on the physique eye. :-)
I don't know if I knew him or not now. I will decide if I ever see that guy again whether he was real or not. If he never returns and this guy stays I will do one of those cartoon run really fast skids out of town.
I wish someone would do a real brain study and psychological analysis whilst someone is in full blown mlc.
Like your take Ready.
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SD quote: I wish someone would do a real brain study and psychological analysis whilst someone is in full blown mlc.
Yes. And check hormones. And anything else. Doesn't anyone live in a country where they could have him committed? ;D
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CJ, you sound like my dad! Several times he's suggested as the spouse I would have the right to just call and have him put somewhere like they used to in the 1950's. I only half think he's kidding. ;D ;D ;D ;D
And I'm with you sd, mine's busting out of his pants, but in a totally non-Hulk way. :( It makes detaching easier, at least!
And Anne, the creative project thing is in my history, too. He and I have made music together since day one. We used to have dates in our teens where we'd buy cheap blank canvases and make each other paintings. It was a no brainer that someday we'd run a creative business together, and it was bliss before the ship went down. I have a very hard time now believing it's been his lifelong dream to be a farmer and a hunter who doesn't have anything to say. ::) ::) ::) Nice try, MLC. No dice.
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A full brain study and check the hormones is a good idea.
CJ, you sound like my dad! Several times he's suggested as the spouse I would have the right to just call and have him put somewhere like they used to in the 1950's. I only half think he's kidding. ;D ;D ;D ;D
I'm with your dad on that one. Put them away while the crisis lasts seems fine with me. ;D ;D Sadly one can not do that here. Anyway, here, in the 1950's a husband could put the wife away for no reason but a wife would have lots of troubles putting the husband in such place.
And Anne, the creative project thing is in my history, too. He and I have made music together since day one. We used to have dates in our teens where we'd buy cheap blank canvases and make each other paintings. It was a no brainer that someday we'd run a creative business together, and it was bliss before the ship went down. I have a very hard time now believing it's been his lifelong dream to be a farmer and a hunter who doesn't have anything to say. ::) ::) ::) Nice try, MLC. No dice.
We also had several creative joint projects/business and it was bliss since day one. Until, for some reason, husband though clubbing and be a sort of small rate celebrity was a great idea. This from a man who detested that lifestyle... ::) ::) ::) So, of course we don't know them. Right! ::) ::) ::) I don't ever remember mine saying he wanted to be clubbing in his mid 30's but maybe I miss that part... ;D ;D ;D
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i have something very interesting to add to this discussion.
When I met my husband in 1999 he had just come off his second divorce in 2 years. When his first divorce happened, he was already depressed (which drove his 1st wife into an affair, essentially, and she divorced him to marry OM). After divorce he was so depressed that his brother who is an MD suggested he go to a serious psychiatrist. It was this psychiatrist (a female, actually) who told him that Shock Treatment might be the best option.
SHOCK TREATMENT.
And just recently (12 years later) he told me this and said if the prozac hadn't helped then he would have done the shock treatment. He says it actually works. He has researched it.
Did anyone see the Mad Men episode where the married woman that Pete Campbell has the affair with was shipped off to an asylum and given shock treatment and that she couldn't remember who Pete was after that?
Tempting.
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Thanks for the imput, UP.
Did anyone see the Mad Men episode where the married woman that Pete Campbell has the affair with was shipped off to an asylum and given shock treatment and that she couldn't remember who Pete was after that?
I saw it. Shock treatment had been abandoned here decades ago but last year, when my MLC cousin had to be taken to my friend who is a psychiatrist my friend told me they had restart doing shock treatment. But only in very severe cases and that it is totally different from the shock treatment of the past.
Prozac does not work on everyone. My husband had been depressed twice years before MLC, due to physical and mental exhaustion, and Prozac did not work on him. Only drove him mad and made the depression worst. The same happened with my cousin. Guess each depressed person is different and so is the depression.
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EGADS! It all seems so medieval. But then I think of my H in his 18th/19th century garb, and think he might be down with that. ;D ;D ;D
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;D ;D ;D
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Trying not to cry for laughing, Ready2... but.... :-\
On the topic of shock therapy... my BF's husband has been severely depressed for YEARS.... she has acted out in frustration.... insisting he is a "child, who knowingly and willingly CHOOSES to remain a child... blah, blah, blah..." and rest assured.. I have MUCH sympathy for her... she is FULL of life, and he is a shuffling old man....so while I UNDERSTAND what has happened to him, intellectually.. she cannot imagine being shackled to him for the rest of her life.... I see that she feels no hope... BUT, I wonder if she MIGHT, a little bit... IF, and ONLY IF.... she was able to PRAY for him, without making him the CENTER of her world.. know what I mean??? TO actually want the best for him (she says she does, but I sense FEAR in her of a life being WASTED... I understand.... truly!) without having NEEDS that he has to fulfill.... She has always had a life, and CREATED a full life for herself, very social... and different than his... she OUTGREW HIM...... Okay, so...... this year he was hospitalized for a COMPLETE mental breakdown... had NO idea what age he was.... talked a lot about getting a puppy.....
Long story short..... through therapy....and FOUR ANTI DEPRESSANTS..... his recommendation is SHOCK THERAPY!!! It sounds medieval... but what if you are the spouse who has lived with depresion for YEARS and multiple prescriptions with NO relief??? What are you left with???? I seem to recall that Carrie Fischer had schock therapy..... you could Google it up if you want.....
Bottom line is... this is MENTAL ILLNESS.... hopefully and probably temporary... but it is an illness and not a choice....
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Hey, I'm getting thinky: we have an electric fence...
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LOL CJ! I can just see the reality show around this: "When MLC makes LBS go DIY"! ;D ;D ;D
Bottom line is... this is MENTAL ILLNESS.... hopefully and probably temporary... but it is an illness and not a choice....
Amen. This is what keeps me sanely detached and mentally focused, instead of wallowing in the details and being drastically disappointed in the most wonderful human being I've ever known.
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LG, I understand that your friend can not imagine herself attached to her husband for ever. Do you know here we can divorce a mentally ill person? That is grounds for divorce. I presume because some mental illness put the spouse, kids, relatives, you name in danger an no one expects a person to spend their lifetime with a mentally ill person.
Well, I have to the psychiatric hospital and to the psychiatric emergency of the general hospital, with my cousin a lot. I have to say some of the people there will never recover, no matter what method is used. In the future, when we know more about how the brain works and are able to repair it or replace parts of it, many things may have a solution. Now they don’t.
Outgrowing one spouse is a thing I think sometimes happen. I feel that about my husband, I outgrow him. He may grow to match me, of course but for now that is it.
Back to shock therapy. I would not say medieval. Only in the sense it brings to mind a form of torture. More like an outdated early/mid 20th century thing. On the other hand our brain has electric circuits, neurons, and so on, so, electricity makes sense. But it is dangerous. We still know very little about the brain. Even in the way they are currently using shock therapy, much smooth, the patient will still be numb, feel sick and so.
If your friend’s husband has a psychiatric problem therapy (assuming you are talking of a psychologist) will not do. If the medication also does not work… I don’t know, there are more modern medicines than Prozac, medicines that come from neurology. I would feel much better if psychiatrist used brain scans and studies rather them, most of the time, just determine a mental illness by the symptoms they see. Psychiatrist should start work closely with neurologist, endocrinologist and other doctors. Has it occurred to your friend that her husband may have a thyroid or other hormonal problem? Those provoke depression that does no go away with antidepressants.
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AnneJ... interesting you talk of brain scans..... my BF husband was seeing Dr. Amen (pioneering research on brain scans to determine behaviors...) years ago... NOW, he has best selling books on the subject!! I would LOVE to see a brain scan of a man in Replay, but the alcohol consumption that typically accompanies Replay would skew the scan.... :-\
I would never advocate that couples stay together under ALL circumstances... just the few years of MLC, which seems like Bi Polar are a trial to endure as you well know!! However, if my husband had another illness that was NOT a choice, would I divorce him for that? Even a terminal Cancer diagnoses throws a whole family into crisis.. emotionally, physically and financially.... it robs families of their time together.... I heard a celebrity on a radio show the other day refer to her son's first years after a diagnoses of Autism as "The Autism years.... they drained me of all energy and personality..... I was COMPELLED to research and write books to educate people about this terrible affliction... but now that he is drastically improved, I'm ME again..." I reallly related to her statement... I feel that I have been in my own crisis and isolated to a degree... low energy and low level depression for so long.... but now that my husband is showing much improvement, I can see that I will have ME back!
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I would never advocate that couples stay together under ALL circumstances... just the few years of MLC, which seems like Bi Polar are a trial to endure as you well know!! However, if my husband had another illness that was NOT a choice, would I divorce him for that?
Exactly.
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LG, it would be fascinating to see the brain scan of a man or woman in Replay. They drink a lot but I think the scan would show more than the alcohol. Think everything is a mess on the brain of a person in Replay. And a test to their hormones may also reveal interesting things.
Thing is the “few” years of MLC can be many, many years and have terrible consequences for the couple, kids, relatives and others. If the couple is divorced than can remarry if they so wish and the LBS would not have to go through terrible financial problems not deal with several other things. Also, there is a different mental frame if one is divorced or remained legally married to a person in MLC with all it entails.
Well, if my husband would become an alcoholic or a drug addict I would divorce him. on the spot. And those are also not things one chooses. Terminal cancer is different than MLC. The family will be in crisis but there will not be a person having affairs, living with other person, blowing the finances, mistreating us. The family will unite and take care of the person with terminal cancer. Plus, at least here, there is an oncologic institute with a wide support for cancer patients and their families. Also, in terminal cancer you know the outcome. In MLC you don’t. One may remain married and endure many years of terrible things just to end up with no marriage in the end. We don't even know if we will like our spouses or if they will like us in the end...
Autism is like cancer. The kid with autism does not have the capacity of wrecking havoc, get other person, abandon, mistreat, destroy the finances and so on. And there are also institution to help autists and their families.
I have a bed ridden grandmother I look after. We all know what is to come but it is totally different than husband’s MLC. Grandmother needs to be look after but she cannot cause damage.
Nothing I know leaves the scars of a MLC. Even because we don’t have to reconnect and reconcile with a person in terminal cancer or a bedridden. They will die. The autist kid will need care for life but it is also different.
I have me back for a long time. What I don’t is the financial resources to go and be me, in the sense of starting projects I would like to, travel and so on nor the freedom to remarry. And the reason is husband’s MLC. Since I have no children, what is the point? It is a mystery.
Husband has show no sign of improvement and he has left nearly 6 years ago and caused so much damage and destruction that I don’t know… I doubt is brain will ever be in working order given the life he leads. Just to not mention his body.
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I don't know for sure this is related, but it's quite a coincidence.
My BIL was also in MLC with his wife getting the usual MLC treatment from him. ( a bit worse than my h) and he was very depressed for a very long time. He took meds for it too.
My BIL started this around 2008 a year before my H and he was diagnosed with MS a couple of months ago. The type he has can lie dormant since birth with a trigger which brings it into full play. I am now suspecting that all the stress and depression from MLC is what his trigger for the MS has been.
My H has only just recently started taking anti=depressants and it has gone untreated for so long now that it HAS to have had an affect on his health in other ways. Everything you read on depression tells you that untreated, has serious potential for further ill health.
SD
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Superdog, I suspect part of my husband’s problem has to do with the thyroid. SIL and MIL both had thyroid problems and SIL had been wanting husband to be tested years before he left. Husband did not care. If husabdn has thyroid problems that would be a reason why, when he had been previously depressed, Prozac have not worked on him.
LG, there is the issue of MLC not being an illness/disease but di-sease. Yet, RCR says she is writing her book from a clinical point of view and we all know MLC involves depression. So, is it an illness, even if temporary, or is it not? I’m inclined to the first, even having in consideration the fact that it may have to do with unresolved past issues. The consequence of those issues cause an emotional and psychological condition of illness.
If it is an illness, no matter what bring it up it can be cured or mitigated. Don’t think it can be cured but think it can be mitigated. Of course we would have to be able to have the MLCer go to a bunch of medical tests and take some medication. And that, of course, is the tricky part. Alcoholics and drug addicts know they have a problem but it may take them decades to ask for help. And some never do.
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Woah - what have I been missing! Electric fences, and LBS DIY ;D
When my H first lost the plot, he ran around like a headless chicken saying there was nothing wrong with him - and he wasn't going to take medication or have ECT (huh?) - no one was suggesting that at the time. They certainly suggested medication some months down the track, but not then.
He KNOWS something is up.
Personally - I believe MLC is an enormous cocktail of disease (depression etc) plus dis - ease (developmental, emotional, personality style factors, plus childhood trauma).
I've always said that I too would love to lock them up for the duration - or at least put them out to pasture!!
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I've always said that I too would love to lock them up for the duration - or at least put them out to pasture!!
Yes, yes, our health farm for MLCers. ;D ;D ;D With a full sports and outdoors activities compound. We could even get than a car racing circuit for the ones who love speed and do mad things with car and motorbikes. And lets not forget the lake for the boats aficionados and some hills to rock climb. ;D ;D
In the meanwhile some doctors and scientists could be examine them and we would be having a fun, quiet life. ;D
But we need to have in a country with lots of space. My country is too small for such thing. Can be do it in the US, Canada or Australia? Is NZ big enough, Kikki?
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Is NZ big enough, Kikki?
LOL I suspect not Anne - because if this is enforced health farm, then there will be so so many of them there.
Any of our available land tends to be bush and national parks. Can't imagine the 'greens' agreeing to such things.
There are vast tracts of Australian desert that are uninhabited though. Maybe that's a possibility?
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Actually, that might work especially well for Hoss - what do you think Ready2?
Part of their experience and therapy could be to physically build old style settlements themselves?
Bit of hard labour would be good for their brain function I suspect.
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Is NZ big enough, Kikki?
LOL I suspect not Anne - because if this is enforced health farm, then there will be so so many of them there.
Any of our available land tends to be bush and national parks. Can't imagine the 'greens' agreeing to such things.
There are vast tracts of Australian desert that are uninhabited though. Maybe that's a possibility?
Yes, enforced health farm. ;D Uhhh... not sure MLCers will enjoy the astralian desert... too boring for them, I think.
Now, should we allow them to have OW/OM and their "new friends" in the health farm? On their own they may try to escape... ::)
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I think NZ or australia would be the perfect place. Isn't there already loads of sheep there.
Mlcers are just the same as sheep - they all "baaaah" the same way, end up looking the same way, get pursued by the same wolves and generally all follow the same script with no minds of their own.
;-)
Sd
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;D SD - No wolves here unfortunately - but lots of sheep :)
Australia has the dingo - do they go for sheep?
The MLC complex could be all fantasy built - whatever their hearts desire could be there - how MLC perfect, and if need be, one of those domes on top to keep them all in. Then it wouldn't matter that it was actually in the desert.
Actually - isn't that the perfect MLC metaphor! Fantasy world built on sand!
I suspect the OW would have to tag along to work out those dreadful mother issues :P
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The MLC complex could be all fantasy built - whatever their hearts desire could be there - how MLC perfect, and if need be, one of those domes on top to keep them all in. Then it wouldn't matter that it was actually in the desert.
Actually - isn't that the perfect MLC metaphor! Fantasy world built on sand!
This would be fantastic! Or maybe an artificial island in the middle of the Pacific (the Atlantic is narrower) to allow for those who love to fly and parachute jumping. It woudl even more fantasy and not country would need to have the MLCers on board. ;D ;D
Not sure but I think dingos will go for anything they can eat...
If OW has mother issues, what have OM?... father issues? son issues? teenager issues?... ???
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That's sorted then. A purpose built fantasy island - Mr Roarke and Tattoo could perhaps make appearances :)
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=fantasy+island&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=W4IQUPuTFqykiAemtoFQ&ved=0CGQQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=745
LOL Anne - I meant OW might need to go along to help deal with the MLCers mother issues.
But you're quite right - the OW and OM would all have major issues too. What a nightmare world that would be to inhabit. :P
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Actually, that might work especially well for Hoss - what do you think Ready2?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I would have said yes to that, but yesterday he calls up talking about wanting to buy a building and open a shop of some sort. :o :o :o :o I hope it's a "cycling" shop, to match his mood! ;D ;D ;D
To quote Mr. Roarke: Smiles, everyone! Smiles!! :D :D :D :D
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Heath farm in purpose built fantasy island with Mr Roarke and Tattoo appearances seems perfect! ;D
Ready2, mine has wanted to go to Australia, have a record label, own a radio and I don't know how many more things. So far the only thing he has is clubbing! ;D ;D ;D
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It's like career day at school, isn't it? ;D I kept waiting for "Fireman" or "Astronaut".
Sad thing is with this farmer thing, my MIL, I know in a bid to keep him from running off and vanishing with OW, bought a bunch of expensive vegetable plants for her house for him to cultivate this summer, probably thinking it would satisfy the farming thing. And now we've had a drought and no doubt they've all dried up as he just sits in her basement and drinks. Wonder if she'll let him set up a lemonade stand in the driveway to satisfy the shop thing. ;)
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It's like career day at school, isn't it? ;D I kept waiting for "Fireman" or "Astronaut".
Yes it is! ;D ;D ;D Think mine is on the "sports man" phase with the bike thing. ;D ;D ;D
Sad thing is with this farmer thing, my MIL, I know in a bid to keep him from running off and vanishing with OW, bought a bunch of expensive vegetable plants for her house for him to cultivate this summer, probably thinking it would satisfy the farming thing. And now we've had a drought and no doubt they've all dried up as he just sits in her basement and drinks. Wonder if she'll let him set up a lemonade stand in the driveway to satisfy the shop thing. ;)
Your MIl was nice buying the expensive plants. She could not guess that a drought was coming or MLCer man would soon not care about the plants. It is sad how much money MLCers spend and made those around them spend. Think so, you MIL may let him have a lemonade stand in the driveway to satisfy the shop thing. After all, they are kids, selling lemonade is age appropriated. ;D ;D
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I've pulled this thread up again; I saw this female MLCer "friend" of mine again last night. I'm going to try to get out what I think; it might take me a few tries.....
It is really odd. I can so see how she could so easily pull everyone into her way of thinking, saying that the atmosphere at home was so bad that she just had to leave, that she couldn't subject her daughters to that any more, and so on. On the surface it sounds plausible, but scratching a bit deeper it is just justification.
But I really had to go and think about it, which made my head spin a bit, hence why it isn't so easy to get it all out.
But she spent a good part of the evening trying to justify herself to me; she knows my views and I am less and less gentle about it, I'm afraid. It really sounded like she had thought about it, and had dug up a "good" reason to tell me why it just had to be this way, knowing what I thought of the whole thing.
She now said that she was emotionally abused. That is pure balderdash. She said that one of her friends had come into the house and said what a horrible atmosphere there was. I wonder who that friend was? I didn't think to ask, but if it is who I think it might be then that is definitely not a good source. And a friend of mine had stayed with them for practically a month during the time she said everything was so horrible, and said that her H catered for her every whim.....
But it is pretty easy to see that she can so easily tell this to people who don't know them that well, and particularly to those who have no idea about anything to do with MLC.
She says that she tried for years, that things had been horrible for years, and so on. Of course there were issues -- and yes, they were the ones she said. But it isn't hopeless, she now thinks it is.
She was different to when I saw her a few months ago; much less introspective. Much more justifying how great a mother she is, how much she does for her girls, and so on. And much more critical of her H, now that he has a girlfriend. She says that he's handling it all wrong (!), that her youngest daughter now has to deal with that.... (youngest, age 14, now lives mostly with the H, as she doesn't want to lose him.....)
And then saying she was happy he had someone, that he was happy. But that he was now choosing to work a lot on weekends when he should be spending time with the girls, and goodness knows what else. And that he doesn't ask her opinion (I wonder why not?).
I told her flat out that it was a mess, and not to try to justify it. But that's just me.
She's also now running into financial difficulties, or will be by the spring.....
I don't know if there are any legal proceedings going, I suspect not. She's around 3 years post BD, perhaps a few months more.
For the record, I believe that she WAS emotionally abused by her father, from what she has told me. So she's now possibly projecting all that onto her H. At least that is one possibility. Her mother died when she was university age, so she really didn't have either parent there for her when she so needed it.
It will probably take me some more time to process things; if we look at it in terms of the tunnel we talk about here she is deep and deep in it, sees absolutely no light anywhere.
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The one other thing I always remember about her situation is that her H bent over backwards to do everything for her -- a policy of appeasement, if you will. He also tried to be indispensable.
He appeased to the point of agreeing to move out....
From what I can see from their situation appeasement just doesn't work. If anything it causes her to resent him more. She, for a long time, did seem to want him around, want him to do chores, and so on; now she's peeved that he has a girlfriend, but she says she's happy for him....
Not that it's my place to say so, and of course I haven't, but he would have been far better off telling her that she could leave if she wanted to, but he was staying with the girls..... she of course had "reasons" why that wasn't a good idea either. I remember not calling her on those a couple of years ago, now I wish I had.
She was also saying that she thought I was wrong not to be dating, that I was "wasting" myself and so on. The last time we met she didn't try that; she did a couple of years ago, though.
The only saving grace for me is that when I think about the mess I'm in, I see that she/they are in a much bigger one, so must remember to count my blessings....
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I was quite disturbed after seeing this MLCer; yesterday I phoned someone who knows that family very well, and who speaks to the daughters often. That conversation just confirmed that right now she, this MLCer, is just completely nuts. She says that her girls are happy that she is dating, nothing could be further from the truth. And so on.
I don't think I like her much right now.
Oh, and I know I said this early on in this thread, but she's a psychiatrist....
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Oh, yes, a woman in crisis will stop at nothing to get what they want. Nothing. Nothing is sacred.
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Very curious that she is a psychiatrist and unable to see this in herself, but at the same time perhaps her negative resolution of an earlier developmental stage may have fueled her drive for achievement and now that she has accomplished what she thought would fulfill her she is now faced with the reality that no amount of financial or academic achievement will fill the void in her persona. Her wounding may have come much earlier and perhaps she will no longer desire to remain in the profession if or when she gets to where she needs to be. Just a thought.....
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Oh, you're absolutely right. She entered medicine and then psychiatry because it was what her father (parents?) wanted her to do; she has done some other things, took a sabbatical to do some sociological research and so on -- that was nearly 20 years ago and to be honest I'm surprised she went back into psychiatry; I knew her then and thought that she was finding her path already then.... not sure what the reason for doing what she did was, perhaps money.
She is now very senior in her job; she sees extremely disturbed people. I sometimes wonder if that skews her thinking?
She's already saying that her middle D needs to consider what kind of job she will be able to get rather than just study what she likes.....
so yes, absolutely -- not resolving things earlier (most likely relationship with her father) definitely drove her; there may well have been even earlier wounding, before her mother died, I don't know.
Right now she's a mess; she's in that catch-22 that she can no longer afford to do what she wants, as she dumped the person who could have and I bet WOULD have helped her.....
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Psychiatrists/psychologists/therapists are not immune to MLC (or depressions). Thundarr, you know it is always harder to see things in ourselves and sort out our own issues alone.
It always scares me thinking that doctors (of any kind) can be going through their own MLC. What sort of advise to they give their patients? Can they compartmentalize? Always wonder…
Trust, think your friend is getting deeper into her crisis. Appeasement can work in some situations or in some periods of the crisis but not always. Sometimes we have to face, even oppose our MLCers.
Right now she's a mess; she's in that catch-22 that she can no longer afford to do what she wants, as she dumped the person who could have and I bet WOULD have helped her.....
Sooner or later most of them, if not all, will get to this point. Hopefully, in time, they can start to move towards the end of the crisis.
Oh, I forgot, Doc, male MLCers (at least some of them) stop at nothing to get what they want.