Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: kikki on October 11, 2013, 03:21:17 PM
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I know for many of us, one of the more heartbreaking aspects of our spouse's MLC, is their 180 on being present and active parents.
Even if they are physically present on occasion, this is usually only when it suits them and not when the children need them, and while they may physically still look like the same person, most of the children are aware that the parent that they could rely on and loved, is no longer there. An alien has taken up residence and at best they tend to get a 'buddy' adult to hang with.
Coupled with this, is the pain of very few people understanding what is going on.
I thought it might be helpful to share a few things that we have learnt along the way, that might help both us and our children.
'One thing that prevents a man from being a good father is he hasn't completed being a boy'
'His leaving wasn't about you, it was about him'
'Systems, structure, affirmation, acknowledgement, will put hair on a boy's chest' - Lyanla Vanzant.
Good Fathers, they do three things - they provide, they nurture, and they guide.' - Roland Warren.
Daddyless daughters have a "treasure chest of 'uns'"—feeling unwanted, unloved, unlovable, unacceptable, unimportant, unattractive, unworthy and so on. Every daddyless daughter needs to unpack her "uns" and redefine the story she believes about her life. - Lyanla Vanzant
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Hi Kikki,
I was just getting ready to check in with you. :)
I know for many of us, one of the more heartbreaking aspects of our spouse's MLC, is their 180 on being present and active parents.
I may have a different sitch in that I am beginning to face that H was not the father I hoped him to be even before BD. D saw it, but a part of me saw what I wanted to be true...
Even if they are physically present on occasion, this is usually only when it suits them and not when the children need them, and while they may physically still look like the same person, most of the children are aware that the parent that they could rely on and loved, is no longer there. An alien has taken up residence and at best they tend to get a 'buddy' adult to hang with.
Again, D felt (and had tried to describe this beginning around age 10--6.5 years ago and three years before BD). H was also noncommittal about having children. He didn't NOT want them, but also didn't feel compelled to have a child. In retrospect, he is still too much of a child himself emotionally to be an emotionally available father. My father was similar. They are fine with adult children, but not really into all that is entailed in being an active, accessible, unselfish father.
Coupled with this, is the pain of very few people understanding what is going on.
AGREED!
'His leaving wasn't about you, it was about him'
He blamed us.
Good Fathers, they do three things - they provide, they nurture, and they guide.' - Roland Warren.
H really only did the first.
Daddyless daughters have a "treasure chest of 'uns'"—feeling unwanted, unloved, unlovable, unacceptable, unimportant, unattractive, unworthy and so on. Every daddyless daughter needs to unpack her "uns" and redefine the story she believes about her life. - Lyanla Vanzant
I felt this way after my father vanished when I was a child, but D does not. She gets that this is her father's issue and problem. She knows this is about his shortcomings and woundings and self-medicating not about anything she isn't or should be. She never did take any of this on as being anything other than his problem. That does not mean it does not hurt. She wanted nothing more than to have a strong healthy family and the kind of father she wants and needs, but that does not equate to feeling unloved, unimportant, unattractive, and unworthy. This does not mean she will be unscathed by all of this, but I do think that children can come through this and be healthy adults in healthy relationships with the necessary love, support and affirmations from other people and areas of their life. It's a lot of hard work, but I believe it is possible.
D has taught me a lot about children through this process and one thing she is adamant about is that biology does not equal love. Biology is the genetic relationship of parent, but is NOT the same as the emotional bonding and relationship. For her and me, love is a verb. It is not enough to just say it. One's actions must be congruent with love. Just as an adoptive parent can love their child every bit as much as a biological parent, a biological parent may not have the capacity to love their child in the way that society assumes they do or must. We have a hard time facing this reality in our culture. We want to believe there is a magic bond or connection between biology and parental love, but many of us know this is not true. Deep and lasting love--of all kinds--is not dependent on genetic connection and not guaranteed by that same connection either.
Also, a relationship with both parents is not necessary to everyone's happiness. D has many friends forced to divide their time between parents and households and not one of them is happy about it. They do it because they have to and because they are expected to and they don't want to be judged by speaking their truth, but all of them have said they would be much happier with one consistent parent and home. Down to the person, they have told D and I that she is very lucky. They have two parents and homes and are happy half of the time. D says she feels generally happy all of the time, but knows this would not be the case if forced to deal with her father's crazy and choices, or compromise her own value system by having to act like she accepts choices and a lifestyle and "relationship" she disagrees with and finds toxic.
This may not be a popular view of this situation, but it is another side of the coin and perhaps one that can also give hope even in cases of vanishers and no reconciliation between families or even between parent and child. It may not be ideal, but if both parents cannot be a positive in a child's life, there are worse things than having one really solid unconditionally loving reliable parent.
Sending love to you and the boys, Kikki.
Phoenix
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Hi Phoenix :)
Each and every one of our MLCers are individuals, and it makes sense that even while there are similarities, there are going to be huge variables too.
I may have a different sitch in that I am beginning to face that H was not the father I hoped him to be even before BD. D saw it, but a part of me saw what I wanted to be true...
I'm sorry. Whichever way this thing rolls, there is so much hurt.
Again, D felt (and had tried to describe this beginning around age 10--6.5 years ago and three years before BD). H was also noncommittal about having children. He didn't NOT want them, but also didn't feel compelled to have a child. In retrospect, he is still too much of a child himself emotionally to be an emotionally available father. My father was similar. They are fine with adult children, but not really into all that is entailed in being an active, accessible, unselfish father.
My H very much wanted to be a father - he was the first of the two of us to suggest we have children. And he absolutely adored our boys. But there was something about having a third child that he couldn't quite cope with. He was much busier with work to provide, to be fair, but there was also a lack of the same level of bonding that occurred with our first two.
Our S15 has always been aware of it - and while my heart breaks for him, he said at 12, some months after BD 'it's okay Mum - you were always my favourite parent'. :(
I am so happy to hear that your D feels none of the 'uns'. Without a doubt, testament to the absolutely amazing Mother that she has.
D has taught me a lot about children through this process and one thing she is adamant about is that biology does not equal love. Biology is the genetic relationship of parent, but is NOT the same as the emotional bonding and relationship. For her and me, love is a verb. It is not enough to just say it. One's actions must be congruent with love. Just as an adoptive parent can love their child every bit as much as a biological parent, a biological parent may not have the capacity to love their child in the way that society assumes they do or must. We have a hard time facing this reality in our culture. We want to believe there is a magic bond or connection between biology and parental love, but many of us know this is not true. Deep and lasting love--of all kinds--is not dependent on genetic connection and not guaranteed by that same connection either.
Definitely agree.
Also, a relationship with both parents is not necessary to everyone's happiness. D has many friends forced to divide their time between parents and households and not one of them is happy about it. They do it because they have to and because they are expected to and they don't want to be judged by speaking their truth, but all of them have said they would be much happier with one consistent parent and home. Down to the person, they have told D and I that she is very lucky. They have two parents and homes and are happy half of the time. D says she feels generally happy all of the time, but knows this would not be the case if forced to deal with her father's crazy and choices, or compromise her own value system by having to act like she accepts choices and a lifestyle and "relationship" she disagrees with and finds toxic.
Depending on the child, this seems to be one of the greatest causes of harm for many children. My sons, along with your D, expressed a very clear boundary, that they would NEVER stay overnight with their Dad, and that they were not going to have a relationship with the OW.
Because they feel so strongly about it, I have been very grateful to be able to support that, and I am also grateful that they are in one house 100% of the time. I can't imagine the disruption and stress, living in two houses must cause them. I know that once again, every situation is different - but that is just how our children feel.
Because of the negative effects of this, I understand that in some parts of the world, it is the separated/divorced parents who must do the weekly change over, and not the children. The children get to stay in the family home while the parents do turn about.
This may not be a popular view of this situation, but it is another side of the coin and perhaps one that can also give hope even in cases of vanishers and no reconciliation between families or even between parent and child. It may not be ideal, but if both parents cannot be a positive in a child's life, there are worse things than having one really solid unconditionally loving reliable parent.
None of this is ideal, but that was my hope with this thread, that we share thoughts and experiences that have helped both our children and ourselves navigate these waters.
Thanks for sharing P :)
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I agree about the safe home bit -- my kids as well have been adamant that this is their home; they've visited H at his apartment and stayed there (not for several years now) but it was never a home, they didn't have rooms there or anything. I also agree completely that being shunted between parents does no one any good. Mine finally said that they felt like toys passed back and forth between parents and the backing and forthing stopped then.
H now blames the kids, btw -- saying he used to so look forward to them coming, and that he "is there" for them but they don't want to come..... He truly doesn't see that his actions cause damage.
Regarding being a parent, I don't know how much my H wanted to be one, either. He was scared at the idea of having kids, which I don't think is particularly strange, however once they were born he relaxed and was great. Yes, were things about parenting that he didn't get stuck into. And there really was just one issue, one I'm sure would have been dealt with if MLC hadn't struck.
I really don't want to be going back to say that he wasn't super-parent in every way and that therefore he was always bad. I don't think many people are super-parent, many of us have had to become that, but perhaps even we weren't super-parent before all this.
However, I think there is another component -- his feeling "not good enough". I think that one of the things that my H feels "not good enough" about IS his parenting, but he twists it to blame me, and somehow uses that to stay away, saying that I'm making him stay away. Or that he is staying away because of me, making out that if it weren't for me he'd be a brilliant parent.
He's said this in various ways during the crisis (in between saying that I'm a brilliant parent, btw...). Right now he's back to "I won't come round because of you".
All of which again goes to show that it's about how they feel inside.
And my D very much misses having a father, all my kids do. They do sort of get that it's not about them, but we're still working on it. They are VERY glad, though, that they have one stable home rather than having two houses but no home.
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And my D very much misses having a father, all my kids do. They do sort of get that it's not about them, but we're still working on it. They are VERY glad, though, that they have one stable home rather than having two houses but no home.
I guess this is where there is a silver lining in all of this - if our children feel as strongly about this as we do - we can be grateful that they are not forced into having two houses instead of one home.
I agree with you that there are very few super parents out there. The movies and kodak moments all tell us what life 'should' be like, but that often does not translate into reality.
It wouldn't matter how the situation played out, and what we were doing, our MLCers would find a way to whine and twist the truth to blame us.
It's no secret to those that know me that I believe this is some form of mental illness. That it is the altered brain chemistry that changes their perception, reality, personality and behaviours so dramatically. (Seemingly 'temporary' due to the hormonal changes).
Denial is a huge part of many mental illnesses.
Not at all fun for any of us.
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The "Me" generation in the United States is a term referring to the Baby Boomer generation and the self-involved qualities that some people associated with it. The Baby Boomers (Americans born during the 1946 to 1964 Baby boom) were dubbed the Me generation by writer Tom Wolfe during the 1970s; Christopher Lasch was another writer who commented on the rise of a culture of narcissism among the younger generation.[1] The phrase caught on with the general public, at a time when "self-realization" and "self-fulfillment" were becoming cultural aspirations among young people, who considered them far more important than social responsibility.
Does anyone else feel that maybe this might have anything to do with the behavior involved with MLC? I do it's all about ME ME ME!!!
I've seen some age ranges here that miss the mark of being a TRUE baby boomer.
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Yeah that, the free-love claptrap, the medias and the false appearance of youth and perfection, technology and faster and faster cars, faster living....
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Well I can't help but think that..there's WAY TOO many of us dealing with this at the same time and it comes from just discontent and a lack of any belief that something else that's BIGGER than us is in control.
The NEXT level is ALWAYS where you'll finally find the happiness. After the next car, raise, shoes, diamond, baby, ...and in the meantime?
EVERYBODY IN THIS CRISIS IS MISSING IT
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Great stuff
I am sure the opposite is valid for mothers too!
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sorry, OP, perhaps I'm being a bit thick here -- what do you mean by 'the opposite is valid for mothers'? Or do you just mean that what we say about fathers applies to absent mothers as well?
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I read it that way T&L that is is all absolutely valid for missing mothers. I cannot ever in my wildest dreams imagine missing precious times with my daughters ... I really don't know how a parent can do that.
And how the kids deal with it always absolutely amazes me too, they are so brave ... well mine are most of the time. Just attaching to this thread friends, as my H is definitely missing much of the time. xxx
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Or do you just mean that what we say about fathers applies to absent mothers as well?
Exactly, just looking at it from the mens POV here on the forum,
since I have no experience at being an absent father. :) :) :)
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Something I read somewhere else made me think. My d is 23 so I don't have the visitation issues. I don't comment on this thread because above all, it's okay for me to put myself out there but I'm not comfortable messing with her privacy. If I try to speak to her about her dad she is dismissive--she says she doesn't think of him much & avoids meeting him. I don't think she can 'relate' to him at all. All I can do is offer to talk & point out that if she needs it, counseling is available.
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Absolutely Calamity. There are great variables in what everyone has to deal with and wrangle, depending on the ages of the children.
I can't imagine what it must be like to have young children at BD, who are forced into spending time with the MLCer and the other person.
At BD, my children were 12, 14 and 15. With a clingy and very entitled MLCer, it all took a lot of discussion with the children, about ways to deal with him. I was very grateful that they weren't even younger.
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I can't imagine what it must be like to have young children at BD, who are forced into spending time with the MLCer and the other perso
My S was 9 at BD and is now 10. He is and always was adamant about NOT staying overnight at his Dad's house and he told me when his Dad introduced him to the ow behind my back. He is angry with his Dad and says his Dad makes him nervous when they are together. I think S10 is perceptive enough to know this isn't the Dad he always knew and loved.
Now H is blaming me for S10 not spending more time with him. Go figure. ::) H doesn't think he has done anything wrong. We just had a "relationship breakdown." Everyone should be fine with it and hold hands and sing kum-by-a! :o Dope!
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But of course Slow Fade! It is JUST a "relationship breakdown"... common as gum on your shoes! DUH!!!
hugs Stayed
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Wow, that's a good one, yes, the relationship, IT just broke down, great, no people involved or hurt...
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We just had a "relationship breakdown." Everyone should be fine with it and hold hands and sing kum-by-a! :o Dope!
I think you should not forget what Kikki posted on page one.
His leaving wasn't about you, it was about him'
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Agree OldPilot but I think the point Slow Fade was trying to make was this was not just a "RELATIONSHIP BREAKDOWN"! Yes there was a breakdown, and yes, like you said, it had NOTHING TO DO WITH HER... but to say it was a R-Breakdown infers it was BOTH OF THEM, that they just couldn't make it together. That's what has her banging her head against the wall. Has everybody, actually.
Knowing that this was not about us, definitely helps. It makes it easier for us to encourage the children to have a RELATIONSHIP with the missing parent. If we were concerned about what sort of people our MLCer has become, we would be worried about letting our children have anything to do with them, be left alone with them, or even be around them. Knowing though, that this is THE MLCER's crisis, is in many ways a God send. The children, can continue on building a relationship with the missing parent. There are discussions we can have with our children to explain why the "missing parent" has left. We can absolutely, positively assure the children, that their parent loves them and may not be ideal at the moment, but most likely will be in the future. Therefore it is important that they continue to have a relationship with the missing parent... at least as best they can.
I don't think Slow Fade was trying to drift away from the important fact that this is HER H'S CRISIS... not her's. She's been around for a while now and was in fact making a joke out of it. I think it is a good, healthy sign when we can see the funny side to this. It shows that healing is beginning.
Hugs Stayed
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EXACTLY - I agree
For some reason in the real world, people seem to assume that divorce is a two way street.
That it is a RELATIONSHIP BREAKDOWN, nothing can be further from the truth.
I never knew that it was NOT a two way street, until I got on these boards.
Sorry I missed the JOKE part.
Agree OldPilot but I think the point Slow Fade was trying to make was this was not just a "RELATIONSHIP BREAKDOWN"! Yes there was a breakdown, and yes, like you said, it had NOTHING TO DO WITH HER... but to say it was a R-Breakdown infers it was BOTH OF THEM, that they just couldn't make it together. That's what has her banging her head against the wall. Has everybody, actually.
Knowing that this was not about us, definitely helps. It makes it easier for us to encourage the children to have a RELATIONSHIP with the missing parent. If we were concerned about what sort of people our MLCer has become, we would be worried about letting our children have anything to do with them, be left alone with them, or even be around them. Knowing though, that this is THE MLCER's crisis, is in many ways a God send. The children, can continue on building a relationship with the missing parent. There are discussions we can have with our children to explain why the "missing parent" has left. We can absolutely, positively assure the children, that their parent loves them and may not be ideal at the moment, but most likely will be in the future. Therefore it is important that they continue to have a relationship with the missing parent... at least as best they can.
I don't think Slow Fade was trying to drift away from the important fact that this is HER H'S CRISIS... not her's. She's been around for a while now and was in fact making a joke out of it. I think it is a good, healthy sign when we can see the funny side to this. It shows that healing is beginning.
Hugs Stayed
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I never knew that it was NOT a two way street, until I got on these boards.
Me either OP. I was brought up to believe marriages were between two people. A marriage that broke up, was the fault of the two people within the marriage. I really believed that too. When this first struck, I TOTALLY believed I had to have been partially responsible. Then, along came MLC!!!
Who knew??
hugs Stayed
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This really is a contentious issue; so much depends on the age of the children, and on what exactly the MLCer is or isn't doing. I've spent years saying you can love someone and not like what they are doing, I've talked about boundaries as they have become old enough to understand, I've stated outright that I love and miss the H that was, I never stop them seeing him.
But what exactly do we want them to have a relationship with? Their father, of course, but 'their father' is well and truly missing and the person walking around in his body isn't very likeable, nor does he model good behaviour.
I've just had my D worrying about how to react "in case" H does something, things he hasn't even done yet -- that shouldn't be the case. And at the same time worrying that he'll just disappear completely. Not right. And I'm not going to tell her to appease him so that he doesn't disappear, as we all know that doesn't work anyway.
Grrr....
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The impact a parent's MLC has on their children is a HUGE concern for me. I believe that children suffer a double loss - they have to endure their MLC parent emotionally withdrawing from them and the family and perhaps leave the family unit to go to an OP (who may or may not have children).
Children suffer a second time because the parent who is left behind is completely blindsided and their life, as the LBS knew it are in free fall. This is real for children of all ages whether young or old at BD each child has to try and come to terms with a huge loss. I believe MLC has a root cause of FOO issues when a key stage of development was skipped because of an 'event' and resurfaces at midlife with a vengeance.
It was very important to me that my exH's MLC didn't cast long shadows into my 2 children's future. My son was 11 at BD and my daughter was 8 - they are now almost 15 and 12. I stripped my parenting style back down to absolute basics when my exH left me - I was there physically for my children, practically sorting their meals and welfare and giving hugs and cuddles. I was lucky because I 'got' MLC within a few weeks of my exH's departure and separated me and my issue out from my kids and their needs etc.
I believe that I have become a much better parent as a result of my exH's MLC. His departure has meant that I have had to be much more 'present' with my 2 children (S14 and D12). I have been very focused on my kids and the impact that their Dad's departure would have. Four years on and my kids are well rounded, typical teenagers with full social lives, spots and all the usual angst. I have had to work hard on not blaming their Dad's departure for all of their ills ...lets face it all teens go through angry stages and being anti social etc.
I think the key headings for me have been (in no particular order):-
1. Regular and consistent contact with their Dad.
2. I haven't taken up with another bloke - I have dated two people in the last 4 years.
3. Open and age appropriate communication with them.
4. Pro-active interventions/discussions about key things
5. Modelling respectful behaviour in all areas of my life.
6. Building and maintaining healthy self esteem for them.
7. Active listening.
8. Speedy responses to thorny issues.
9. Build their resilience to situations so they have healthy boundaries.
As my healing has taken hold, I have built my relationship with them with a better set of tools. I slip back, a bit like the game snakes and ladders but overall my kids and I have a solid foundation.
I recently had a 1.5 hour conversation with my exH, it was all still about him and his wants/needs/desires. Him him him. I walked away very pleased to not have him in my orbit anymore. He expressed a desire to be there more for the kids, spend more time with them blah blah. 4 weeks on and he is still self absorbed and choosing to not spend extra time with his kids. My exH is a very manipulative man, cunning and sly with a smart suit and shiny shoes. He looks and sounds the part and people are taken in by him. I no longer see him that way, my 'detached reality goggles' are on!!
Protecting my kids from his manipulation, whilst still encouraging them to love him (but not his behaviours) is an ongoing issue for me. I definitely haven't found the single solution but I hope that by being present with my kids, open, non-judgmental, able to apologise and listen to them I can counter their Dad's manipulation. Being this kind of parent is hard work and doesn't leave much time for other romantic relationships which I think has been fundamental to my kids feeling safe with me.
I would love to know how we can support children of MLCer' better on this Forum. There are lots of LBS here who have children but are struggling to come to terms with their 'new normal'. The single Dad's who are on this Forum are such an amazing bunch - they show real love to their children and I am positive their relationships with their children will so much stronger and deeper as a result. It may not seem it at the time but the opportunity to be an awesome single parent is really a gift. Hard work but an amazing gift.
Well done for raising this issue Kikki, it is an issue so many LBS are concerned about but don't focus on it because we are too busy or have other concerns. It is not easy.
I am looking forward to seeing how this thread develops.
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1. Regular and consistent contact with their Dad.
2. I haven't taken up with another bloke - I have dated two people in the last 4 years.
3. Open and age appropriate communication with them.
4. Pro-active interventions/discussions about key things
5. Modelling respectful behaviour in all areas of my life.
6. Building and maintaining healthy self esteem for them.
7. Active listening.
8. Speedy responses to thorny issues.
9. Build their resilience to situations so they have healthy boundaries.
Agree MF these are all important.
However the first one depends on the MLCer ... and on the kids too. My MLCer is in a particularly horrible phase ... chose to be on holiday for a month with OW last Summer when the Ds were here, then he was home when we 3 were away for a month.
Now he's going away for half term with OW, after asking last week what days the Ds were free so he could take them out ... I gave him 5 days of the week to choose.
So when my Ds see what he does, and feel he chooses her over them, they don't want to spend time with him, they are angry with him. Its a downward spiral, and he is the one in control of that, not me. So the regular and consistent contact goes out of the window, and when they do see each other, they don't enjoy the time together.
Its a vicious circle at the moment. I don't see it improving unless he changes his focus from OW to his Ds ... Ds refuse to meet OW.
xx
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Thanks everyone for continuing the discussion.
MF, thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
I believe that children suffer a double loss - they have to endure their MLC parent emotionally withdrawing from them and the family and perhaps leave the family unit to go to an OP (who may or may not have children).
Children suffer a second time because the parent who is left behind is completely blindsided and their life, as the LBS knew it are in free fall. This is real for children of all ages whether young or old at BD each child has to try and come to terms with a huge loss.
Agree completely - this hits the nail on the head.
Protecting my kids from his manipulation, whilst still encouraging them to love him (but not his behaviours) is an ongoing issue for me. I definitely haven't found the single solution but I hope that by being present with my kids, open, non-judgmental, able to apologise and listen to them I can counter their Dad's manipulation.
Being this kind of parent is hard work and doesn't leave much time for other romantic relationships which I think has been fundamental to my kids feeling safe with me.
I think you summed things up brilliantly here.
I would love to know how we can support children of MLCer' better on this Forum. There are lots of LBS here who have children but are struggling to come to terms with their 'new normal'.
Nearly four years into this, this is something that I think about daily for my children. How to continue to get them through this thing with the least amount of damage, and with the greatest amount of positivity for their own futures.
Its a vicious circle at the moment. I don't see it improving unless he changes his focus from OW to his Ds ... Ds refuse to meet OW.
Musica, this is absolutely the same case with my H and our boys. He consistently makes his new life with the OW his priority - always has done, and for the past three summers, chooses holidays with her over spending time with his children.
This hurts them deeply, although they pretend they no longer care.
What a mess.
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Excellent post, MF -- and I know you have worked very hard with your children.
Mine were children when H left, they are now teens, with, as you say, all the "usual" teenage things. But on top of that is a huge feeling of having been abandoned by their father; they've all articulated it.
The one thing on your list that we struggle with is the "regular and consistent contact" -- I have the same problems as kikki and musica in that my H texts if and when he feels like seeing them, and then yes, gets miffed if they have other plans. He only attends school events if it is convenient and so on.
There are times when he does remember things, and then the kids get very excited that he called about the exam results, for example.
Holidays can be trouble -- the last two years have been a disaster at Christmas (he doesn't ask to see them for any other holidays), when he invited them to Boxing Day lunch, the first time not saying anything about who else would be there and it turned out it was OW and her entire extended family including the dog; last year he promised they would be on their own but when they got there he said OW wanted to come anyway. Children came home in tears; this year we've made other plans for the post-Christmas period already, D did see him and told him so, apparently he was miffed but he hasn't said anything to me -- it may well come out in other ways.
They absolutely don't want another such situation, and of course do want to see him (which I've never hindered); there are plenty of days free around Christmas for that, and of course he continues to be welcome here with us. The first years of the crisis he did spend Christmas with us, and quite a lot of other time as well; it's the last two that it's been very different.
The children are adamant that they aren't toys to be passed back and forth; in general I think that they do feel they have a stable home with me, they've never had rooms or anything at H's flat, which is very much a designer bachelor pad. We believe that he now stays with OW most of the time, which by extension means with her teenagers as well.
Like kikki and musica, he always chooses time with OW (or other things) over time with the kids, D articulated it this way: "we're third -- first is work, then anyone or anything else, then us".
I love your list, it's what I strive to achieve as well. I do believe I am a MUCH better parent than I might have been because I really do remain very actively involved, and strive to make sure that any issues about anything are discussed promptly. Both to deal with the issue at hand and to teach them that difficult conversations are necessary, that things can't be swept under the carpet.
I try to do as you do, MF, in that I remain polite and as neutral as I can be with him, however I, too, am now dealing with an MLCer who is now directing the anger at me. This wasn't the case in the earlier years; perhaps latest OW has something to do with it but I only say that because his behaving in this manner coincides with her arrival on the scene.
The children have tried to tell him how they feel, they have also written that has only resulted in anger directed at me. I generally don't respond.
The issue of communication over the kids is one that I struggle with; it's anything but regular and consistent. As time goes on we live more and more our own lives; the last time I talked with my H (18 months ago?) I did say that I would always work with him for our family, however in the current situation (I put it better at the time, can't remember now) my priorities would be protecting myself and the children.
Oh, I'm not writing very well today, I'm in a hurry. But yes, this is an important thread. Very much so.
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Have been thinking about this thread all day; I just looked on the sheet where I keep track of how much actual contact my children have with H, and see that he has seen one S back in March (drove him to a sports fixture), then next in September -- S and D went for lunch with H. The other S he saw on his own early April, then once in early October with D. He's seen D a few more times, has had lunch or a walk with her 5 times since Easter, including the times with her brothers. We all attended his mother's burial in August.
This lack of contact has been going on for the past 10 months or so; before that he'd come to our house every week to cook dinner and eat with the children. He did that for about 18 months, before that he'd come once a week to spend some time with them. The coming and cooking were all at his own instigation; he stopped very suddenly after Christmas last year and in August gave the children a letter (in response to their having written how they felt) that said he wasn't coming any more because of me, and blaming me for everything else that was wrong.
I completely second what musica said:
Its a downward spiral, and he is the one in control of that, not me. So the regular and consistent contact goes out of the window, and when they do see each other, they don't enjoy the time together.
H is a good cook, so they do like his lunches, but they've fed back to me that there was nothing to talk about, or that he talked about himself and how he needs to lose weight. He once tried to bring up this situation with D, but apparently told her that it was me who was the one with the problem (because I wasn't OK with his choices, didn't go find someone else, and so on) which completely isn't appropriate. Anything D said fell on deaf ears.
In my case I think a lot of the MLC had to do with not feeling he was ready to be a father when they were born, and now he wants that unfettered life that he somehow thinks I denied him. So doubly absent parent.
But, rather than just saying what is happening, is there anything we can do? All my attempts to involve him in parenting have failed; he now even refuses to acknowledge that special needs S won't 'get better'.
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D articulated it this way: "we're third -- first is work, then anyone or anything else, then us".
T&L - I think this is at the crux of the problem. Our children feel just as betrayed and abandoned as we do, but how do we walk the fine line of encouraging them to have some sort of a relationship with their MLC parent, all the while helping them develop the skills and understanding in how to deal with their parent's crisis behaviours. Not an easy task.
My boys would probably say that their Dad puts work first, OW and other work related enablers second, band practice third, and then they may come fourth if they are lucky.
Heck, even the OW apparently said to Bursty recently that he doesn't act like a father. She has barely been around him and the boys, so wouldn't have been able to observe his strange behaviour towards them (apart from the obvious one of living with her instead of them - duh!), and she is not a parent herself, but after observing quite a few skype sessions this year between S19 and his Dad, apparently she said he wasn't being a very supportive father, more of a mate.
Anger and blame projected towards us when the kids don't jump when the MLCer says jump is not an easy time. It took a long while, but Bursty finally seems to be taking responsibility for this now.
It took the boys a long time, but I personally think it did help when they could stomach occasionally coming across the OW. Try as a MLCer might - there is no way they can pretend that there is ever going to be any sort of connection there. It did help to diffuse the pressure.
There is no way that the younger two would ever agree to sitting down and sharing a meal with her, but S19 has in recent months, and Bursty said he was pleased that S19 had the 'maturity' to be able to do this and to be polite. I just nodded my head. He then said, but he's not at all interested in engaging her in any sort of conversation though?
That one will probably take him a further year to mull over.
And if anyone doubts the nutcase level here - imagine having this discussion with your wife of 20 something years - talking about your girlfriend that no one in the family likes ??? :-\
I can only but imagine, that in those moments, he is back in life two, and it's part of the dissociation (or compartmentalisation).
In terms of their lack of support with any raising of our children, I do find I just have to be grateful, that he is continuing to support the boys financially. As for the rest of it - I don't know that there is anything else that we can do, apart from accept that there will be zero parenting.
I find that whenever I have asked for help, it has ended up a bit of a mess.
For instance, I am fed up with being left with 100% of everything to do with all our assets and responsibilities. I finally asked him to please be responsible for getting S15's scooter serviced. He willingly did, but he didn't bring it immediately back. Surprise, surprise, the scooter ended up being stolen. It turned up weeks later - very damaged. Meanwhile, Bursty managed to lose the key that we had for it. He has no clue where he has put it.
He's less reliable than my three teens put together. I just have to accept that he is a man in crisis, and that it will continue to be bizarre.
Is there anything we can do about the lack of parenting? Honestly, I do not think that there is. I just find that day by day, we have to make the best decision in the moment, and take each day as it comes.
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Came across these articles again recently, from the Self Focus thread.
http://jamesjmessina.com/toolsforcontrolissues/eliminatemanipulation.html
http://jamesjmessina.com/toolsforcontrolissues/letgoofuncontrollables.html
http://jamesjmessina.com/toolsforangerworkout/handlingresentment.html
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Hi Kikki and all fellow Lbs's,
Ive given this so much thought since my h's crisis began almost 2 and a half years ago. I put my children( d14,s9,s9) and myself in therapy right away. It was a godsend but I was initially a little miffed and perturbed because their therapist didn't focus on the trauma of having been left by their father. I didn't understand it at the time but I am so very grateful for it in retrospect.
His focus was on building their self esteem so that they could navigate their everyday life effectively. He guided them to find the tools necessary to control their own world and to not get dragged into their fathers crisis. His phillsophy was more or less " this is a horrible situation that you are in , but you don't have to be a victim, you are only responsible for yourself and your future."
I beleive that our children get their cues from us. If we focus on our MLC crazy absentee husbands/wives , they will as well. They don't have the life experience to navigate what is essentially a midlife problem. Kids need one good healthy parent to nurture and guide them through childhood and adolescence into adulthood. A relationship with the absent parent is a bonus, but we as The LBS are not responsible for that relationship. If we're not careful that is exactly what happens. That role is thrust upon us by both our H/W and our children. Our children follow and want to please but often they have to deny their feelings and that is where the damage begins. They just want to trust us. They are on their own life journey and they need to feel safe and free to do .
Hopefully, when our spouses emerge from the tunnel , they will be able to make an honest attempt towards a genuine relationship with their children.
My 2 cents for what it's worth.
Hugs jagger
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I can see from reading your experiences, that my family was "spared" a great deal of the anxiety, stress and heartbreak that your families have been subjected to. Being the ages they were, by the time he reached full blown MLC, and the fact that we moved to Europe with only 1 child in tow, they had very little contact with him, during his worst.
As you know, we had a bit of a honeymoon phase for the first two years here in Europe. Then his mom died, our children became engaged, two actually married and one was expecting our first grandchild(she miscarried that one), when the evil fear of GROWING OLD set in and he fell totally into the black hole of MLC. Found himself an nice OW, in between the 2 marriages... that being sometime between September and December of 2004.
They were exposed minimally. Summer of 2005 our youngest son returned to Canada to start university. My mother was in the final stages of cancer. Was undergoing radiation and really was not safe home alone. I honestly felt it was my duty to stay and care for her. My siblings had done more then their fair share, while I was moving around the world with my h and kids. None of them could afford to take the time off work, I was not working and felt it was my turn to take on the burden they had all been baring, all these years that I was away.
During that year, they saw plenty of their father. All of them could see how bat$hit crazy he was. Fortunately, they were spared the in your face, day by day, CRAZINESS that your children have been exposed to. They saw enough of him to realize that part of the weird, irritable, cranky, hard to please man that they saw in 1997 onward had been the prelude to this grand finale, out of his mind crazy that was coming home every few months, from 2004 to 2006. BUT definitely not to the extent that any of you are having to deal with.
My heart goes out to you and your kids. Thank goodness they have you as mom's and dad's.
Jagger, I was just about to post when your posting prevented me. What an amazing approach by your counselor! I would never have thought of that. I would have thought it necessary to dwell on the MLC parent for a portion of the treatment, then to go on to the life lessons, self esteem, take responsibility for yourself approach. Must say, I am impressed! Looking forward to hearing from others. I am ever hopeful that due to proactive LBS's and good counseling, much damage can be minimized.
Hugs Stayed
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A relationship with the absent parent is a bonus, but we as The LBS are not responsible for that relationship. If we're not careful that is exactly what happens. That role is thrust upon us by both our H/W and our children. Our children follow and want to please but often they have to deny their feelings and that is where the damage begins. They just want to trust us. They are on their own life journey and they need to feel safe and free to do .
I like this, J. I know in my sitch my H has been trying to thrust that role upon me, saying things such as "you don't encourage them to see me", as if it WERE my responsibility, when he knows that he is welcome to any time, it is completely within his control. And being upset that he isn't consulted about our plans, when in reality he is completely removed from our lives.
And yes, our children SO want to trust us. Mine struggle with H in that regard, especially D -- she says that she has a very hard time with things H says because she so wants to trust him and believe him because he is her Dad, and then she goes away and thinks about it and realises what he says isn't true. It's very hurtful and confusing for her, which IMO is all the more reason for us to be completely open, honest and trustworthy.
I do wonder how good it is for our children to see the full-on craziness; if he ever comes out of it might it be better that they don't have that as a memory? Just thinking out loud. Kind of like the way we need to keep away from it.
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My dad died when I was 12. My mom went into a deep depression. My life was chaotic. I think that's when I started having control issues.
Now I look at my D13. I can see her heart is breaking but she has put up a shield of anger. I have to be careful to allow her to have her own feelings about her dad without projecting my own hurt into the mix. I want her to have a dad/daughter relationship - but it needs to be a 'healthy' one and not just because I want her to have a chance at what I didn't have.
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Wow, life gets so confusing at time. Reading your personal situation ISTillMatter, just makes this all so much harder for me to grasp. Your father DIED... he couldn't help that... he just plain couldn't. Our spouse, the parent of our children, have a mental break down of sorts... and can't seem to pull their heads out of their backsides, to save anybody... themselves, their children... you.
It really doesn't make a lot of sense to me... Hugs Stayed
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I was talking to D this morning about why she thinks so many MLC parents text or talk to their kids like teenagers or buddies post BD. Without even having to think about it, she said, "I don't think it's as much about them wanting to appear "cool." I think that when they hurt us, they want to act like our peers so it takes away their responsibility as a parent who should know better and do better. The problem is that they aren't our peer. They still are our parent and it's all just pathetic and cliché and adds to the discounting and the hurt."
I copied this from Phoenix's thread -- it's so very well put. It's exactly why my H spends more time with OWs sons and with his nephews than with his own children, because he can be just their buddy, to them he's not a parent who isn't measuring up.
And it's exactly like my D says -- she so wants her father to be a dad, and she wants to trust and believe what he says, and when she realises that's not the case it does her head in.
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......
For some reason in the real world, people seem to assume that divorce is a two way street.
That it is a RELATIONSHIP BREAKDOWN, nothing can be further from the truth.
I never knew that it was NOT a two way street, until I got on these boards.
I thought the same...that TWO people both decided not be be married any more. Now I know different. two people are responsible for their own part of the problems in the marriage but it only takes one to decide to leave. That's where this all sucks!! We had TWO people agreeing to a life long commitment and then only one has to call it quits.
I recently made this statement to my sister as she dismisses the enormity of the impact of H's betrayal and abandonment and the 2 OW's has on my kids. A few months ago she flipped me of by stating that 'It happens to many kids today' . Yes it does but that doesn't make it any less upsetting for them, her nephews and niece.
We have not been invited as a family to her place ONE since exH left (apart from a birthday or Christmas when everyone was invited). This I find hurtful the most. That my own family don't wrap their arms around these little ones. I pray for good male role models in the lives of my kids. The older 2 now go to 'Boys Brigade' at a church nearby and I am so thankful for these young and older men who can demonstrate what it is to be a man.
Please keep sharing on this thread people. :) :) It is inspiring and so helpful to read what is helpful to our kids and other kids we know, going through this.
Hugs,
SP
P.S Keep wondering what my boys (11,9 and 7) think about dad's new t-shirt ::) ::) ::) The back of a woman with long hair getting out of the water semi naked). For some reason I really noticed it when I dropped S7 off. Couldn't help thinking it looked ridiculous on a 47 yr old man with a newly grown beer gut. I know these kids are way more intuitive than we give them credit for. Probably just roll their eyes ::) ::)and get on with being kids at dad's place.
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I agree about the importance of good male role models, particularly for our sons. Daughters need them too, though -- their fathers are their models for how men can treat women.
My S and I have talked about this, and he's listed all the men in his life that he does look up to; it still hurts and confuses him, though, that his own father doesn't want to be a dad.
My D has a poster in her room saying, among other things, that sometimes you have to get lost in order to find yourself; that as has been a starting point for this kind of conversation, that perhaps Dad is lost (and that's why he's unable to be a dad) and needs to find himself.
What I try to keep on the right side of, however, is that my kids have sometimes thought that it is up to them to do something to get dad to be a dad; I do say outright that it isn't their responsibility, and that in truth it isn't even possible for them to "do" anything.
They, D in particular, do want to "do" something; we have talked a lot about how any change has to come from him, and that having healthy boundaries is what they can "do".
An example of such a boundary is that D shouldn't be put in the middle between either dad and the boys, or dad and me.
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On the Women Winter Workshop thread that was started there were some other ideas of how to save money..property taxes etc..
This thread doesn't have to just include holidays etc..but they are coming and with it more emotional situations.
If anyone has any suggestions on how to save money this year due to whatever thier circumstances they are welcome to post it here!
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http://www.thesimpledollar.com/little-steps-100-great-tips-for-saving-money-for-those-just-getting-started/
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Hi,
Thanks for posting this. I am always looking for ways to save. My Mil and I make some presents (cookies, jam and candy). We will pool the things we have and this helps both of us. We try to buy some gifts that are not gender specific, an adults and a childs. We have them wrapped and ready in case someone brings an extra person. Everyone gets a gift. We usually buy these after Christmas. We are bargain shoppers. I don't mean to sound cheap but, I didn't come from people with a whole lot of money. I have learned to be frugal.
Thanks! K
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Great idea, Init. I will be back, but until then, and not about saving money, but if anyone looking for suggestions about how to deal with a "first" this or that after BD, I would say that for us, Christmas was just as great for us as we had our "own" version, which was similar to those had with H when he was here, but in some ways, different. We went out and bought new mini trees and new cheap little ornaments. We didn't get the usual big box of tree ornaments out, just kept with the new ones. It was so great, and quite refreshing. The kids also put one in their rooms as well as lights, which was fab.
My suggestion would be do not dwell on what was, or look for things to remember or wish were there, just make a new version, and enjoy it just as much. It can be so much fun, and in fact, even better. Doesn't mean we don't remember, it just means enjoy what we have, and make it positive. So easy to sit and dwell, but if you do, the day has gone and that's it over.
I will be back........but next time with money saving ideas. ;)
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http://www.loveisrespect.org/dating-basics/healthy-relationships/healthy-relationships-quiz?gclid=CNDRuNn3z7oCFQpnOgodqy4A4g
Start here..take this test both ways. Think about BEFORE this MLC behavior started and now.
PLEASE educate yourselves in regards to this type of behavior. Any insight, websites, or other stories are welcome.
We are all wounded and need to heal.
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http://mindfulconstruct.com/2010/07/09/end-a-codependent-relationship-the-healthy-way/
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I'm currently re-reading Codependency No More. I have a lifelong habit of CD, so just re-reading to make sure I've got this down pat. I know H has a big CD problem too, but it's up to him to sort it or not. (see how non CD I am!! :D)
Prior to bday, H was very moody, had been for a few years. Would never tell me why. Just suddenly a dark cloud descended and nothing I could do about it. Of course it's not my job to do anything about his moods! Yep I always tried to help him, fix him etc.
I also walked on eggshells, so I guess I have a score of ten for pre bday. So much for my idea we had a great marriage! (yes I actually thought that at bday)
I don't think I knew what a good marriage was! He was pretty good at the caring/listening/supportive bit but his moods were ferocious. And so was his drinking. I always worried he would leave one day. Then it happened! Handed me pain, enormous pain, but also a huge opportunity for growth.
Learning about and helping from codependency has been huge for me.
Good job posting this up init!
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Thanks Sunny-
Alcohol is a huge factor in this "labeling" so to say but doesn't have to be.
I found the word interdependent interesting. That's how a HEALTHY relationship works.
I always thought everybody was at least a little codependent in a relationship.
I am (was whatever) an adult child of an alcoholic and that lends itself BIG TIME to having codependency issues.
TRUST is imperative to me and I had enough drama and games to last me the rest of my life as a child. I'm not doing that again I know that for sure!
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisabeth-saunders-medlock-phd/happiness-tips_b_4205834.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular
Personally share what makes you happy....
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http://zenhabits.net/brighten/
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http://www.wikihow.com/Stay-Content
IMHO this goes hand in hand with being happy
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I always tried to write a letter at Christmas time instead of sending a gift. A HAND WRITTEN letter.
This year my list is very long do to all my friends that helped me when I ended up homeless due to the second BD in April.
I don't know how I will express how grateful I am to them. But it will take me a while to write them...there will be many.
I always try to make something homemade. My friends S10 helped me paint and move things over the summer and I saved something he did that he won't expect and am making it into a card to go with a small gift. I am really looking forward to giving it to him.
I've helped a friend can apple pie filling and apple sauce. I made Christmas wish bundles for fireplaces, Acorn Santa ornaments, and a few will get Rosemary dream pillow made with herbs from the garden I grew this summer. Infused oils from herbs are an easy thing to make great for cooking.
Have the kids get involved and make gift wrap from brown paper bags..some paints or Crayons and let them trace shapes using cookie cutters and color them in. Kid art has GOT to be the best!
Stickers from the dollar store will work also.
If you have someone who feeds birds scour around now and find pine cones.
Get a great big jar of the cheapest peanut butter you can find and a bag of birdseed. Spread the peanut butter on the cone and roll it in the birdseed. A simple wrap of waxed paper around a few and then place inside a decorated brown lunch bag is a gift any birdwatcher would love.
Keep the kids busy with projects and the joys and memories you make this year will last forever.
Be present....
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http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/meaningful-you/201307/codependent-no-more
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http://www.wikihow.com/Be-Emotionally-Detached
There seems to be some other things you may want to check out at the bottom of this website.
It's probably the single most hardest things to do. My concern is I do NOT want to stay this way for the rest of my life.
But since I'm aware of this...I'll work hard to make sure ( as sure as I can) it's safe to emotionally invest next time! :)
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In it, thanks for the link. I was going to start a thread on detachment as detachment is the most elusive state. I like rcr's section on detachment esp.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_detach_practical-applications-to-detachment.html
But I would love to hear from others on how to detach i.e. practical ways or habits of mind that help at different times in the process.
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If you look at another person's behaviour, and see how it will affect you, you can choose whether to allow it or not. i believe knowing our limits and setting boundaries is key to detachment, even for ourselves, as we then know what is tolerable and what isnt, then over time, things automatically fall into the appropriate slots without even having to think.
The more you do it, the stronger the boundaries, the more you detach.
What has worked for us is really seeing things for what they are, and not feeling it is about us at all. It helps tremendously to remember thisis their crisis, and it has been made very clear that we are not invited to go along and assist. We need to be thankful for that and go on our own path. We take each thing as it comes, acknowledge it, whether painful or not, then decide whether or not we can do anything about it. If yes, then that is up to us, but if not, we let it go. more you do it, the easier it becomes.
For us, I think the biggest part that helps with detachment is knowing it was never about us. I have stressed that with the kids since day one, and it has helped. We also know there is nothing we can do, and after a while, it becomes familiar, and the "new normal". Not sure if any of that helps, but it works for us. Plus having an mlcer who is a complete a$$ helps, very much.
We have to have self respect, and while this might mlc, it doesnt mean we have to put up with the behaviour. The more we are to see what we will and will not tolerate, the easier it is to detach.
Just my two pence.
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This is something I am struggling with, both understanding and the application.
If I'm doing this 'right', when I spoke with H on the phone yesterday and he sounded so down, I was right in thinking to myself later that just because he was feeling that way I wasn't going to let it affect my day? There was no point in worrying about it because I couldn't change anything?
Is it a case of 'acting as if' with detachment? The more you act as if, the easier your brain responds and you do detach? If so, I'm taking acting lessons :)
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I was never a fake it til you make it kind of person..if I don't genuinely feel it? It ain't gonna happen.
NC is the ONLY WAY I could detach..I finally got fed up with the games. The simple lack of respect is a huge factor in maintaining no contact. And a total lack of TRUST.
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I think Snowdrop hit it on the head. It's about self-respect, which I've never had before but do now! And boundaries. I used to feel there were no boundaries between myself and the world. I felt too much. I used to think that was just how I was, but now know that is codependency. For me, the greatest learning has come from facing and understanding copedendency. If you havent read Codepdendent No More, I recommend you do. I had my own FOO, and learning I didn't have to fix everyone's problems was a big eye opener.
The more self respect I have, the easier detachment becomes.
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I read that book about 20 years ago but STILL it didn't hold. I've had a slight change in my attitude now.
I always thought I had self respect? But I didn't... I got my value from everybody else and that AIN'T IT!
Yes this whole thing is about self-respect and how much bull$hit you think you NEED to take.
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Yes, NC helps I think, or maybe much easier when you are dealing with an mlcer who has left. So much easier if they are not communicating as you have to really figure it out yourself from the beginning, and it is sink or swim.
The lack of trust is huge, and helps greatly as there is not other option now. Where there was once total trust, now there isnt, so another thing to not have to question.
Most of all, I think it depends greatly upon who we are as individuals, our own history and experiences to date, and our coping skills. We are all different and had different life experiences, so I think that affects us when it comes to detachment, and how it might come "easier" for one than another. For those who have had to do it before, or are independent in nature, might find it comes easier. Not to say any of it is easy, it isnt, just that they might have already developed those coping skills, or at least partly, due to necessity in the past. Nothing totally prepares us for this though, nothing. In a way, it is a gift, as we develop in ways we might never have. We are tough.
I also think kindness towards ourselves helps, ie why putyourself in a spot where you know you will be hurt, such as looking at your mlcers fbook? Think about howyou might feel later if you do something. All about retraining your thoughts.
For me, H being so cruel and disappearing except for a few awfulmvisits, has helped the kids and I detach, and I am thankful for that. We saw that he has become the kind of oerson we would never want to be around, and yes, we hace our moments of tears, but overall, we do not miss the man he has become. We cried for the man he was, not the man he is. This guy now is horrendous, and we cannot imagine a life with him AT ALL, and would rather be without.
My kids have been raised and taught to set boundaries, and sometimes they do, and at times they dont, but they are at least aware of what they are. When meeting their dad recently, they took the lead, and set out their boundaries as a condition for meeting him, and that if he wasnt prepared to honour em, they had no desire to meet up with him. He replied that he would, and they met, then again the kids took the lead and excused themselves once they had eaten their food. They took complete control. They anticipated the script and told him ahead of time they didnt want to hear it.
I think those boundaries help in dealing with this, as well as helping our healing. My H has no filter on what he says, and is like a loose cannon, even with his children. Dreadful.
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http://www.helpguide.org/mental/children_divorce.htm
For those who are going through a divorce or separation whether legal or the MLcer is absent or in and out from the family dynamic.
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http://curecodependency.com/codependency-vs-independence-vs-dependence-vs-interdependence/
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/debbie-gisonni/focus-on-the-little-things_b_3648167.html
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Good stuff InIt! Thanks for sharing:)
31andcounting
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I also think kindness towards ourselves helps, ie why put yourself in a spot where you know you will be hurt, such as looking at your mlcers fbook? Think about how you might feel later if you do something. All about retraining your thoughts.
Agree.
I have to say what started my emotional detachment & I'm not there yet, was the idea of mlc as a dis-ease. If you look at the situation & it makes no sense at all & it's not you who's acting strangely...
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We have to have self respect, and while this might mlc, it doesnt mean we have to put up with the behaviour. The more we are to see what we will and will not tolerate, the easier it is to detach.
I completely agree with Snowdrop :D
It comes down to what is acceptable behavior to you. However, this requires knowing yourself and I think that is what a lot of us are learning; we need to learn who we are again.
I think Snowdrop hit it on the head. It's about self-respect, which I've never had before but do now! And boundaries. I used to feel there were no boundaries between myself and the world. I felt too much. I used to think that was just how I was, but now know that is codependency. For me, the greatest learning has come from facing and understanding copedendency. If you havent read Codepdendent No More, I recommend you do. I had my own FOO, and learning I didn't have to fix everyone's problems was a big eye opener.
The more self respect I have, the easier detachment becomes.
Right there with you Sunny ;D I had always seen myself as responsible for everyone else before myself, even as a kid. Learning that I didn't have to fix everyone's problems was a big eye opener for me too.
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This is a great discussion!
I also struggled greatly with emotional detachment. I did a few things to assist in helping move forward in a seemingly impossible task of letting go of a man I still loved deeply but who was demonstrating no love towards me.
1. Compiling a list of "facts" about my relationship and marriage with H which were unhealthy. I approached it as emotionally removed as possible....as if I was just putting together data. (for example, H choked me, H lied frequently, H often criticized my career, I didn't trust H for a significant period of time) To my surprise, my "perfect and comfortable" marriage had 42 points which were not all that good.
2. Making another list entitled "signs of healing". This was for me....ALL the things, big and small, that I found myself growing in and taking pleasure from. (for example, getting fabric softener for my clothes all the way to being able to spend an evening with friends where I DIDN'T talk about my sitch)) None of these things involved H. This reminded me of the positives that can come out of chaos....just like the flower that grows from the crack in the cement.
3. Participating in a closing ceremony in which I buried treasured items to be cleansed by the earth and water. These items were a bracelet H gave me in the first years of our R, a CD with our wedding songs and the piece of tartan he wore in his pocket on our wedding day. Symbolic ritual is something embraced by many cultures and religions around the world. Find one that may work for you and do it. Let go.
4. Using the 3 hours, 3 days, 3 months to address things such as responding to H via text or phone calls, time lining when I'm "supposed to be stronger", etc.
5. Actively doing things that I NEEDED to be doing to survive. Going to IC, going to work, finding a place to live, moving, etc. If I felt stuck (which was frequently) I paid attention and made sure I did things to get un-stuck. Posted here, asked for help from my friends and colleagues, wrote, practiced self-care, stopped wallowing and focused on my S.
6. Most difficult - whenever I found myself playing the role of the understanding, tolerant and healing wife....I STOPPED MYSELF! I literally would catch myself mid-sentence and then say to H "Ya know, it doesn't matter because that's your business and not mine. Good luck with that." I also told H to stop using me to be that understanding and consoling person in his life.....when he walked away, he also lost that gift I gave to him over all these years.
All these points were things that I have done along the way. All were difficult. I wasn't perfect and did the opposite things sometimes. It took work. I'm still practicing them and still screw up from time to time. All I can reiterate is that detaching was the HARDEST THING FOR ME TO DO and that is exactly where I am now.
You'll get there....just always make sure you're more important than the one who left.
Be well...
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Duthla:
...just always make sure you're more important than the one who left.
This is what I have been telling myself for the last few weeks. He left, so why should I make him more important than myself? He doesn't seem to care what happens to me at the moment. So...it's all about me now!! And I am LOVING it!!
Great thread, init!!
CT 8)
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It's definitely about self respect and consistency.
I found also, that the minute you accept that your spouse is in mlc, and I mean 'accept' and accept that you are on your own is the minute you will feel the first hint of detachment.
It is not true, in my humble opinion, that there is nothing you can do to stop your spouse's mlc. You can. There is a lot you can do. The main thing being: stop believing that it is about you!
That will stop mlc in its tracks towards YOU! You can stop your spouse Mlc....in YOUR life!
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I found also, that the minute you accept that your spouse is in mlc, and I mean 'accept' and accept that you are on your own is the minute you will feel the first hint of detachment.
It is not true, in my humble opinion, that there is nothing you can do to stop your spouse's mlc. You can. There is a lot you can do. The main thing being: stop believing that it is about you!
That will stop mlc in its tracks towards YOU! You can stop your spouse Mlc....in YOUR life!
Agreed. After the initial grieving, it really is up to us whether we allow it to affect us or not. We could spend the rest of our time as victims and blaming, or we can see it for what it is, recognize the things we need to work on for us, as we too had our part in the relationship, and move forward, all the time knowing that this is their journey, and it has nothing to do with us. Doesn't mean it is easy, and it takes time, but I think we can see it as a way for us to be stronger, and develop ways we might not have otherwise.
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This is so so hard. Things I find work for me is to redirect my thinking...constantly. Focus on you and where you want to go in life and with your family. Finding positives in your life and things to look forward to. Goals and dreams about me and my kids. Time will heal just keep the focus on you.
I also think of the things h wasn't and all the things I wanted h to be and it wasn't him and he never will be that. I can not and do not want this h back. I will allow myself to grieve this loss but know h is not what I want/need in my life. I know I am on the right path and just have to remind myself of that, even with how hard and heart breaking it is, it is the way it is suppose to be.
I lost a lot of me and really relied on h way too much and this was very unhealthy. I am now finding independence and courage to do it alone and it is quite the challenge. But really, there is no other way and I remind myself of this... It is only me and I have to figure it out alone and raise my family.
NC is really the way to go. I have to go dim and dark because of the kids but NC would be my ideal. I have to stop any type of confrontation and h really tries to get me wrapped into his crisis. Boundaries don't let him get in your head. I need to come up with some one liners to use with h. Only communication should be facts and no emotions, don't get sucked into his drama.
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I also think of the things h wasn't and all the things I wanted h to be and it wasn't him and he never will be that. I can not and do not want this h back. I will allow myself to grieve this loss but know h is not what I want/need in my life. I know I am on the right path and just have to remind myself of that, even with how hard and heart breaking it is, it is the way it is suppose to be.
I lost a lot of me and really relied on h way too much and this was very unhealthy. I am now finding independence and courage to do it alone and it is quite the challenge. But really, there is no other way and I remind myself of this... It is only me and I have to figure it out alone and raise my family.
This is a very insightful and heartwarming post, Magnite38. Thank you! What you say here is so true. While we love our MLCer to death, we have to really be honest with ourselves and ask how good this person really was for us. I know that not only do I not want my W back the way we she is now, but I also do not want her back the way she was during our marriage. Neither do I want myself back the way I was. I am working on myself and I can only hope that someday my W will do the same for herself. It is the only path for all of us.
Thanks again, Magnite. I wish you all the best.
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This is so so hard. Things I find work for me is to redirect my thinking...constantly. Focus on you and where you want to go in life and with your family. Finding positives in your life and things to look forward to. Goals and dreams about me and my kids. Time will heal just keep the focus on you.
I also think of the things h wasn't and all the things I wanted h to be and it wasn't him and he never will be that. I can not and do not want this h back. I will allow myself to grieve this loss but know h is not what I want/need in my life. I know I am on the right path and just have to remind myself of that, even with how hard and heart breaking it is, it is the way it is suppose to be.
I lost a lot of me and really relied on h way too much and this was very unhealthy. I am now finding independence and courage to do it alone and it is quite the challenge. But really, there is no other way and I remind myself of this... It is only me and I have to figure it out alone and raise my family.
Exactly! I feel the same.
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I see that what I grieved was the relationship that COULD have been.. not was... after first BD.
This second time? I didn't waste one tear on him..it was all about the kids.
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I found also, that the minute you accept that your spouse is in mlc, and I mean 'accept' and accept that you are on your own is the minute you will feel the first hint of detachment.
It is not true, in my humble opinion, that there is nothing you can do to stop your spouse's mlc. You can. There is a lot you can do. The main thing being: stop believing that it is about you!
That will stop mlc in its tracks towards YOU! You can stop your spouse Mlc....in YOUR life!
Agreed. After the initial grieving, it really is up to us whether we allow it to affect us or not. We could spend the rest of our time as victims and blaming, or we can see it for what it is, recognize the things we need to work on for us, as we too had our part in the relationship, and move forward, all the time knowing that this is their journey, and it has nothing to do with us. Doesn't mean it is easy, and it takes time, but I think we can see it as a way for us to be stronger, and develop ways we might not have otherwise.
Totally agree with this. And when you accept that this really has nothing to do with you it does get easier to cope with....now if only I could convince my family that this is a process and will in time, pass........
And just following on from Magnites post, I think I relied on H quite a bit aswell as him feeling the pressure workwise and being the money earner probably contributed to his MLC I am sure, amongst LOTS of other things. Now I have started working again and am wondering why on earth I never did this sooner????!!!!!
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http://empoweringchildrenofdivorce.com/
I think threads may have been started somewhere due to this subject..this website is offering a program ..I'm not endorsing it I just found some of it interesting reading.
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http://www.empoweringparents.com/Dos-and-Donts-of-Divorce-for-Parents.php
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http://www.childrenanddivorce.com/
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http://www.nativeremedies.com/ailment/natural-treatments-children-sleep-problems.html
I used to have a spray I'd use when they were little to take away the bad dreams and help them rest.
They need comfort before they sleep...a quiet talk... a cry...a rubbed back...a kiss on the forehead....a blanket tucked in.
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Now I have started working again and am wondering why on earth I never did this sooner?
That's what I'm looking forward to, I can't wait. Just want to be able to take care of us and not need H for a single penny. Plus, getting out and doing something for me too.
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http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/12/09/emotional-detachment-when-the-no-contact-rule-is-not-an-option/
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http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4251.0
connecting another thread here
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/11/how-this-harvard-psycholo_n_3727229.html
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/adult-children-of-divorce
Adult children article.
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Bump..article for the kids and sleep here
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http://children.webmd.com/kids-coping-divorce
More suggestions on how to help the little ones cope with all of this...
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Looking at the beginning of the thread, I wonder if some of this comes from their parents position of possibly being children of war kids. (On top of the MLC FOO issues)
When H was fake, that what his mother to a tee, who is also all about herself. I really did think that H was the one who broke the mold in his family, but now I see that he is just the same.
I then wonder was he always that guy, and he changed when he met me, only to adapt to "us", then lived in conflict for 20 years (he was always angry), only to realize and recognize it now, leading to BD. Maybe LBS script, but something I do think of. Now, OW, might truly be a better match (mlc or not), and maybe his true s.mate after all.
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I came to the same conclusion EXOW was his PERFECT match..just like him..his REAL self.
She stole things, lied, moral less, sexually promiscuous, money means everything, materialistic, no soul, was the exact match for his dark side.
He should have STAYED with her.I'd be glad if he could just go back to her. They deserve each other..seriously!
His FOO issues:
Tyrant and controlling father unplugged emotionally unavailable mother.
Narcissistic parents..narcissistic offspring.
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Emotional steps in divorce (if this is what you are going through right now) this might be posted on this thread somewhere but it still helps to get an idea of what emotions you may be going through and help to feel more "normal".
Shock:
You will feel panic, rage, and numbness or like you are going crazy. You will swing between despair that your marriage is over and hope that it will be restored. It will seem impossible to cope with these feelings
You will experience some common fears when thinking about your future alone. You will wonder how you are going to survive your divorce. Will you ever find love again, will the pain ever end or will you feel this way the rest of your life are all feelings you will experience during this stage.
Rollercoaster:
You can’t seem to settle your feelings and thoughts. You swing from being hopeful to feeling utter despair. During this stage, you will try to intellectualize what has happened. If you can only understand what is going on then the pain will go away and all will make sense again.
You will tell yourself stories to try to make sense of it and your imagination will run wild. You will wonder if there was more you could have done, or if there is anything wrong with you. Maybe your spouse never even loved you. You will wonder if your entire marriage was a lie.
There is a lot of mental re-hashing during this period. You will fill as if you can’t control your thinking and find yourself obsessed with the failure of your marriage. Depression is a danger at this stage and you may cry at the drop of a hat.
Bargaining:
You are still holding onto the hope that your marriage will be restored. There is a willingness to change anything about yourself or doing anything and that if you could just get it right, your spouse would return. The important thing to learn during this stage is that you can’t control the thoughts, desires or actions of another human being.
Letting Go:
During this stage you will finally realize that the marriage is over, that there is nothing you can do or say to change that. You will become more willing to forgive the faults of your ex spouse and take responsibility for your part in the breakdown of the marriage. You will begin to feel a sense of liberation and some hope for the future.
Acceptance
The obsessive thoughts have stopped, the need to heal your marriage is behind you and you begin to feel as if you can and will have a fulfilling life. Suddenly you are looking ahead and not behind you, you are making plans and following through with them.
You will open up to the idea of finding new interests. This is a period of growth where you will discover that you have strengths and talents and are able to go forward in spite of the fear you feel.
Your pain gives way to hope and you discover that there is life after divorce and the future is made brighter due to the pain you have suffered.
I like this last sentence.....a lot.
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Thanks init, always nice to see a reminder of where we were, and where we are.
I remember those early days, and how awful they were. I think I am in acceptance now, while having good and bad days, bouncing back is easier, and I focus on a future without H, and I'm okay with it. Wow, what a difference a year makes.
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Yep no kidding I'm working on indifference..no more anger..I can refer to that time in my life and relate to things people struggle with here but it involves no more pain. I have no desire to see him or talk to him.
As fast as this happened the faster I got passed it.
I've examined it to make sure I'm not in denial and I find none. The love and concern is gone.
Being here has helped me a great deal. And these steps assured me I not crazy and how I felt is a normal thing to go through.
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Self-healing-
I was looking for help with grief..this was kind of due to more of a physical loss in death as opposed to what is being dealt with here.
I am totally grateful for the amount of faith in God that is on this forum. I know there are people who do not believe in a higher power.
I found this online and thought it still could apply to the loss of a relationship somewhat also.
http://thegrievingatheist.com/2013/09/21/five-healthy-things-that-you-as-an-atheist-can-do-right-now-to-feel-better-while-grieving/
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Self healing-
I have a magnet on my refrigerator.
The part not in parenthesis is the original wording the part in parenthesis I have added as it applied in the MLC situation I dealt with::
Rules to Remember
1 Respect yourself- and others ( Be a mirror. Shown respect? Return respect..
Shown disrespect? Protect yourself by any means)
2, Think before you speak ( Remember whatever you say they may not remember at all, but if they do? Chances are they will apply thier own spin)
3 Listen to one another ( No monsters please-walk away, hang up, do not answer emails, texts, go NC if necessary)
4 Smile first ( Makes everyone wonder what you are up too)
5 Be happy with what you have ( Might be tough for some but there is always something to be grateful or thankful for no matter how small)
6 Say please and thank you ( always)
7 Try and do your best ( Your best may be doing nothing)
8 Be patient, kind, and forgiving ( Refer to the first part of rule one; do not be doormat either)
9 Think good thoughts ( Negative self talk will undermine your peace of mind)
10 Never give up (Letting go is not giving up)
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Bump!
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http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200410/relationship-rules
How about some respect?
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http://anupturnedsoul.wordpress.com/2013/07/20/are-you-a-magnet-for-narcissists/
Working on healing for me is first to identify what it is that creates a pattern for the behavior other people who may not have my best interest in mind may pick up on.
My weaknesses.
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Bump
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Just giving this thread a little bump
xx
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Thanks so much Moving, i needed to see this right now!