Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: CSF on August 25, 2014, 08:06:41 AM
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So I have been talking to my 15 yr-old step-daughter in secret (late night phone calls from her room) as her mom doesn't want her to have unsupervised contact with me. They have moved in with OM who is newly separated from his W. And talk about fast!! BD was less than a month ago and since they moved in, they've changed the carpets and are painting every room as my W says she doesn't want the place to remind her of when it belonged to her friend, OM's W.
My daughter says it's disgusting being around them. They act worse than teenagers. She says OM is like a puppy attached at her hip around the house and every where they go. When she wants to spend time with just her mom and makes that request, he still tends to show up or is always there when she is talking to him. It really makes her angry and she's confronted both of them about it, but they just seem to ignore her pleas. And she said that the first night they were there, the OM made a comment about how this was the start of their "forever". It made her sick. And she says everybody around her thinks it's weird such as friends and riding partners. She's embarrassed and doesn't want friends over. She's tried and they are all in awe of what is going on. She called me crying one night because her mom and her had been fighting every night about how she favors OM over her. She went so far as to call her mom a $l*t, as that is what her friends I'm sure are saying.
She also is tired of her mom lying to her. Before they left our house for his place, she said her mom wasn't sure if it was a good idea and maybe she shouldn't be pursuing this relationship right now. My daughter agreed quite vehemently, but to no avail. She just wanted to smack her upside the head with a pan and keeps repeating how she wants her mother to pull her head out of her ass. Or out of his ass......lol. And she keeps saying how her mom has lied to her all along about things like they were going to stay in his basement and him upstairs. Wrong! And how they weren't together and just friends for the longest time even though they tended to sleep in the same bed. Wrong!
She's a smart girl and she knows this is going WAY to fast, considering we figure it's been only about 6-8 weeks that this affair could have been going on. I told her about some of the things I've read on this site, and that this will more than likely fall apart, and could be sooner than later. The brighter it burns at the start, the faster it will burn itself out is my thinking.
I just let her rant as I don't want to put thoughts in her head, but even she said that OM is a predator. He has cheated before on his previous wife. And my daughter says that when we were fighting, he was right there to soothe W, and when I took some time away from home, he was right there the next day. W couldn't escape OM as that might have allowed her time to think and he might lose his opportunity. These are all words straight from my 15 yr old daughters mouth! She realized we were having problems and told her mother that all we needed was a break to think things through.
I offered her to stay with me but she says her mom gets mad and she doesn't want to fight anymore. She also states she would miss her mom too much, even though she's not the same women. She states she hates him, hates his kids who seem to get more attention from her mother than she does, and hates the place she lives in. She thinks OM is quite a step down in intelligence and has no backbone. And she's wondering where her mother's went. She says it seems every waking moment is with OM or texting OM when he's not there, and going for lunch everyday with OM if he's at work. She wishes her mom could step away on her own and think. But mom's alone time means OM!!
She misses home (where I am which I am currently debating my previous decision to sell), our dogs that live with me, and her friends in the area.
The more we talk, the more I can't believe things. Who is this woman? If I followed her around like a puppy, damn straight she would be saying lay off. If I did any of the stuff my daughter described, even 5 years ago, it would have pushed her away. But now it's the cutest thing and she sticks up for it when my daughter confronts her?! I miss my old wife dearly, but who is this?! I would love to feel like a teenager in love with her again but this is way too far! I don't think I'd want her back in this state!
And the fact that she no longer puts our daughter first is a big blow. Our daughter has always come first in our relationship. And she says it was never like this when we were together, even in the beginning. It's way worse.
I don't know what to think!! Is this MLC or is this an illness or chemical imbalance?! This is, indeed, one of the most shocking transformations I have ever seen in my life. I only wish I knew about these things prior to it happening to me. This site and others like it have really opened my eyes to something I didn't even know existed. But should have, as I may have been able to deal with it early on and maybe avoid what's happening right now. I feel like I have to warn everybody I speak to about relationships about it if they haven't reached the age yet where it could just happen.
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CSF-
Good topic! I think it may be a combination of both, mental illness (hopefully temporary) and then chemical imbalance. The OM/OW is just like a drug. I don't see any other way to explain the 180 turn around. I am attaching, interesting to see the conversation!
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Attaching also....I can't explain, wish I could, wish I found this site to prepare me also!!
One thing I know for sure, in my case, I do believe it stems from my H's traumatic childhood and something has triggered it, plus add in midlife doom and gloom, plus depression BIGTIME. I know my H suffers from PTSD, my diagnosis, because of trauma that was never talked about!
This sucks!! I like you don't want the Alien that has invaded my H, I miss my old H terribly, we have 21yr old S, H has wiped us out of existence!! Moved out 8weeks ago and really not sure where he is!!
Take care of you, be there for your daughter, she is going to need you!!
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Poor girl... she's in such a tough situation! She's very lucky to have you to confide in. You're an amazing man for helping her through this. 15 is such a tough age already without having to deal with this crap...
It's ridiculous how a person can turn their lives and most importantly their kid's life upside down moving in with a stranger after like a month of knowing them! These MLCers are NUTS. Surreal, that's what it is.
I will be preparing the popcorn and waiting for it to crash and burn... I just hope your D won't be caught in the crossfire when things go pear-shaped. It's good she has the option of escaping to your place if need be, at least she has a safe place of sanity.
Sending you big big hugs...
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Hi csf
Sorry you're here-along with the rest of us...
Your question is a good one-and there does not seem to be one hard and fast answer. Search the forum for "chemical" or "neurotransmitter" and words along those lines. Some of those who have been here awhile have read up on different factors that could potentially lead to dramatic changes in behavior-sounds like your w is high-energy-painting, new carpet-all In a 4 week period?
Ready2Transform and Anjae have posted info about brain chemistry, hormones, mid-life crisis, depression-it's all fascinating-would be more so if we weren't the collateral damage
Keep asking questions and posting. We are here to support!
Onlyjo
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And kikki and iamnottheenemy too on that list! Absolutely there is a chemical side to this, no doubt compounded by andropause, perimenopause, and any medication they are on. Three years in, I believe more than ever that my H needs to take responsibility for his health. Sadly, we can't just check them in somewhere. ;)
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Me too on that list. I believe mlc is a depression caused by biological factors for example, it's gotta have something to do with hormones given the usual age range. If you want to know more about the biology of humans & depression, listen to Robert Sapolsky on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc
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Hi
I just had a thought - its just a thought so please do not want to offend any one.
But here i am reading Calamity's post and it struck me. 100 years ago people that behaved contrary to their known personality or did things that were unconscionable blamed the devil or some negative spiritual entity. Today we use modern psychology.
I know on this site many people say MLC is not an excuse for cruel and hurtful behavior but really are we not helping the MLCer justify their actions by using MLC as a psychological condition???
What is it that separates those people who suffer Midlife depression but do not go covert and those that do? More and more i am beginning to think it goes to character.
My brother went through a bad phase a few years ago he was 42 and he said to me he felt disconnected, hopeless and in a dark place. He could not feel love for his children let alone his wife. He buried himself in online gaming but never once did he think to cheat on his wife and destroy his family - because deep down inside he knew that while he could not feel anything for his family - he knew logically that this was not possible for him not to love his family. He recognized something was a miss. He went to counselling and sorted himself out. So what separates him from other MLCers - i think it goes to character.
just a thought - a meandering
sorry about your circumstances Calamity i really feel for you and your D.
take care
moment
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My brother went through a bad phase a few years ago he was 42 and he said to me he felt disconnected, hopeless and in a dark place. He could not feel love for his children let alone his wife. He buried himself in online gaming but never once did he think to cheat on his wife and destroy his family - because deep down inside he knew that while he could not feel anything for his family - he knew logically that this was not possible for him not to love his family. He recognized something was a miss. He went to counselling and sorted himself out. So what separates him from other MLCers - i think it goes to character.
I have been wondering this too... at the end of the day when I was depressed I never even thought about cheating. .. and the one time I was really tempted I still had the rationality of choosing not to do it. I have a hard time thinking people might be so far gone they lose the ability to make sound choices.
Then again a few days ago a guy in italy stabbed his 18 month old daughter and is claiming the voices told him to.he was depressed his mother was worried he might commit suicide. .. so maybe a mental illness can explain it after all... although one moment of madness is one thing, keeping at it for years is something else...
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thanks R2T--was typing from my phone and had to make it quick...i know there are many on the board who have asked a lot of thoughtful questions about the chemistry of MLC/infatuation/love, etc. thanks to all (kikki, calamity, anjae, iamnottheenemy, lanzo i think too...) for sharing the fruits of your labors and experiences.
somewhere, and i can't find or think of where right now, in one of RCR's articles, she mentions the "chemical" part of things--the "addiction" to high from OW/OM, but at the end of the day says that MLCers make a choice. she explains it much better than i can--check in the articles section moment and dagolark. RCR basically says "MLC doesn't give you a pass"
onlyjo
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From what many of us have witnessed and experienced, and the completely out of character behaviours, many tentatively liken high energy replay to being on the bipolar spectrum.
People experiencing bipolar mania can be hypersexual, and have very poor judgement and can spent a great deal of money etc.
Is it the same area/circuit/chemical balance that is not functioning well, as in bipolar mania, which manifests as very out of character replay behaviours?
Is it possible to remain in this state for years?
I have no idea, these are just questions that have been posed, given what some of us are dealing with, and how out of character it all is.
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What is it that separates those people who suffer Midlife depression but do not go covert and those that do? More and more i am beginning to think it goes to character.
I think we have a broad representation on this site of what falls under the umbrella of MLC. It's my suspicion that some lean more to the side of choice, character, general dissatisfaction with life/wanting to try new things/search for "happy". Then there are others who suffer from mood and personality disorders or addictions either resulting in or alongside the MLC that they may or may not seek treatment for. Then the gray area that probably belongs to most of us.
I know my H sought treatment which only ramped things up, unfortunately. I'll never know if it was the real cause or if the MLC would have happened regardless. He knew he was dissociating and he was scared to death about it, and unfortunately is now a completely 180 of himself in every way - not just his morals or lifestyle, but drastic changes that you can't attribute to the affair partner, or even guilt, I think.
I don't feel it's an excuse - having been diagnosed and treated for a mood disorder, I am joined with qualified professionals in believing something changed in my husband that he absolutely, at least at one time, was willing to undergo deep treatment to resolve. I don't aim to sugar coat the experience, or lessen the effects of his cessation of treatment. But having been through a transition myself, I know it is not something I purposely did to hurt myself or anyone around me.
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Interesting discussion.
When J hit the serious actual depression stage, he was diagnosed as bipolar.
Yes to hypersexual
Yes to poor decisions
Yes to spending money excessively
Yes to rarely sleeping
Yes to wild escapades
Yes to drinking, drugs, and literally more women then I can count
Yes to risky behavior
Now, as he has progressed, his doctor has been able to wean him down somewhat in his medication. His physician is surprised by this. At first we had trouble maintaining a high enough dose to lessen the mania.
J was not bipolar as a child or teenager. No signs were evident until around 40 of depression or mania.
As to the length of time, not to be a downer, but J was in Replay for about a 9 years crisis and manic for much of that.
I just don't know if the chemical imbalance was there and caused the MLC or if the MLC was exacerbated by the chemical imbalance. In other words, I don't think the causal connection is clear in either direction. I wish it were.
J next doctor visit is not until the end of the year if all remains stable.
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I think we have a broad representation on this site of what falls under the umbrella of MLC. It's my suspicion that some lean more to the side of choice, character, general dissatisfaction with life/wanting to try new things/search for "happy". Then there are others who suffer from mood and personality disorders or addictions either resulting in or alongside the MLC that they may or may not seek treatment for. Then the gray area that probably belongs to most of us.
I just don't know if the chemical imbalance was there and caused the MLC or if the MLC was exacerbated by the chemical imbalance. In other words, I don't think the causal connection is clear in either direction. I wish it were.
Would agree completely
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MAN I wish I could take a glimpse in my vanisher's life to know what the heck he's doing, if he's manic or what... not one of our common friends has been able to tell me anything because he's vanished on all of them. Tbh he always was the past few years, they've been calling him 'the vanisher' for 4 years at least.
...then again not really, I could look at his brand new fb page but I'm staying the hell away from that :P ;)
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I swore my H was exhibiting some bipolar behavior, he is 46, his aunt told me never exhibited as a youngster, just hyperactive but his family has history of it. My psych dr said extremely rare to not exhibit any bipolar and suddenly develop in your 40's...who knows but my H cycles between downs and ups, at least from what I have been told only by S that works with him. H has completely cut off everyone that was in his life.
How could that not be some sort of chemical imbalance? You suddenly leave everyone and everything? I think yes hormones due to the age. I do think trauma somewhere early in life plays huge factor. I definitely know there is a disassociation.
I seen my primary dr tonight, told him what I could, he has known us for 16 yrs, he was dumbfounded, he kept saying, no way, no way. You two, H? You 2 always came together, etc. well if H keeps his appt. he is going to talk to him in a way that H will never know I talked to him...dr says just by my account def severe depression, mid life, and possible PTSD because of childhood.
So we will see. Definitely something is off with these MLCers , it's not normal.
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Blindsided-
Your post could be my own H. Amazing.
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Bipolar is a mood disorder, it does not have to be there when one is a child, teenage or young adult. Like all mood disorder Bipolar can appear at any age (it is personality disorders that show when one is a child, teenager or young adult). This said, my very wallower cousin, when he had his MLC, was diagnosed with everything from schizophrenia to psychotic passing to borderline. Then, when my cousin hit rock bottom, my friend who is a psychiatrist said he could be bipolar. Could be. If he would not react to treatment within two years and after treatment keep having mania and depression episodes, bipolar would be it. Within two years he was much better and even if he has not fully returned to his older self, he is not bipolar.
Doctors can have a hard time separating MLC from other mental/neurological disorders. By the way, here, in my town Faculty of Medicine they have mental illness under neurosciences. The department is called Departamento de Neurociências Clínicas e Saúde Mental – Clinical Neuroscience and Mental Health Department. They use both and they know mental illness is in the brain, therefore it is part of neuroscience. Of course that then they have subdivision, like psychiatry and neurology, but the first is part of the second.
I don't know Moment. Do you think mental illness, or neurological illness, or addiction, is just an excuse for bad behaviour? Do you know/understand the mechanism at work in those conditions and what they do to brain and body? Mental illness, neurological illness, addiction had nothing to do with character. It has to do with the way body and brain are wired and/or the alterations they suffered. Of course mental illness, neurological illness and addiction alter character. They tamper everything inside a person.
Is it an excuse? No, it is a cause. There is a difference. Paedophilia is a neurological disorder. It has to do with a wrong wiring of brain circuits. Does it excuse the behaviour? No, but it explains it, those who suffer from it cannot (until science is more advanced) revert their brains wrong wiring.
They make a choice. Or did they? They way I see it is, they are depressed. Depression alters perception and reality, sometimes to the point of leading something to take their own life. MLCer get OW/OM (or any other thing that provide a high): The high makes them feel good (for a while), but it also changes their brains. Next thing they know they are addict to the high. From then on it is like all other addiction, including nicotine or caffeine.
For me it is stress, the imbalanced hormone cortisol, that leads to the mania, replay, MLC. Add to hit the rush of adrenaline (and people do get addict to adrenaline) provided by OW/OM or their drug of choice, add further, now all levels, hormonal, brain chemicals as well as the brain electric part is becoming unbalanced. And there are also those who may have thyroid problems (thyroid issues can also have mania), low testosterone, and we are dealing with a lethal cocktail of madness.
Also, don't forget many MLCer start to use alcohol (or other drugs, but alcohol seems to be the main one). Alcohol provokes all sorts of damages and changes in brain and body as well as in personality.
In my current course we are learning the effects of drugs and alcohol (who is also a drug but tends to be separate from the other ones) on brain, body and personality. Especially on older adults and well as in adults over 40. It is not pretty.
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They make a choice. Or did they? They way I see it is, they are depressed. Depression alters perception and reality, sometimes to the point of leading something to take their own life. MLCer get OW/OM (or any other thing that provide a high): The high makes them feel good (for a while), but it also changes their brains. Next thing they know they are addict to the high. From then on it is like all other addiction, including nicotine or caffeine.
Yes.
From my experience, people I have known, mlc resembles manic depression [now called bipolar?] more than any other mental 'condition'. If so, no I wouldn't say a mlcer was responsible for his/her behaviour.
We have discussed this before [when I still cared what it was that was driving my h ;) ]. Most people on here believe that a mlc is rooted in childhood experiences. The usual conclusion is that mlc is a perfect storm. A disgusting brew of issues & chemicals & other body secretions is more like it. ;)
I hope that made sense. Speaking of chemistry, I took an ativan this evening [contact with the xxxh]. :D Nope, not pretty.
In my current course we are learning the effects of drugs and alcohol (who is also a drug but tends to be separate from the other ones) on brain, body and personality. Especially on older adults and well as in adults over 40. It is not pretty.
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Hi All and Anjae
Thank you for your replies was just asking to get opinions. I do understand brain chemistry the example i used to help me understand is post partem depression that a mother who would naturally be loving towards her baby could even consider killing her/him goes to dysfunction. I guess my question was more to the degree of behavior due to messed up brain chemistry. In other words what makes one mother experiencing post partem depression recognize that things are not normal and seeks help and the mother who actually land up hurting her baby.
What separates those MLCer's who choose to destroy everything and those who recognize something is off? What is it that separates the person who is experiencing a chemical abnormality yet has the consciousness to recognize it and the person experiencing a similar imbalance succumbing to the chemical imbalance with very little awareness that anything is wrong?
take care
moment
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I guess my question was more to the degree of behavior due to messed up brain chemistry. In other words what makes one mother experiencing post partem depression recognize that things are not normal and seeks help and the mother who actually land up hurting her baby.
What separates those MLCer's who choose to destroy everything and those who recognize something is off? What is it that separates the person who is experiencing a chemical abnormality yet has the consciousness to recognize it and the person experiencing a similar imbalance succumbing to the chemical imbalance with very little awareness that anything is wrong?
If their morals, behaviours and character are completely 'out of character', then I would think the above questions would have to do with the degree of severity of whatever is malfunctioning in the brain.
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Yes, bipolar is mood disorder as I'm all to familiar with it due to having a grandmother that was institutionalized many times, a few cousins, and 2 aunts, they exhibited signs of this as teens, just as puberty hit. My H never exhibited any signs in 25yrs that I knew him, depression yes.
Oh depression, the worst, I have suffered for sever depression since I was 12, I'm 46 now, I have been on just about every cocktail of drugs available, even the mood disorder drugs. I think we who have dealt with this, deal differentl. I would never, ever thought of leaving my family. But I haven't gone through MLC, gosh hope I never do, menopause will be just about all I can handle!! Lol.....just like with post partem, you have cases where mothers harmed their children, others severe depression with thoughts never acted on. The brain, that huge complicated organ!!! Hopefully science will figure it out someday!!!
As for sever trauma, just my opinion, as all of the above is....I think when a person has suffered some form of trauma so severe as a child, to,protect themselves, they block. .especially if the grown ups around them have failed to act, or abandoned them. My H had such trauma, for first 3 yrs of our R I barely could get it out of him, and took years for him o share about 95%. He has unresolved issues, he knows it, I think low T and other things. Excuse, I'm not sure. If any sort of mental illness I can't buy it as an excuse, as mental illness is not to be excused. This is not just someone going off to have good time. This is someone who has dissasocciated himself from all the life he knew....and really for no concrete reasons other then..."wanting to be alone"
All confusing, all a puzzle...for me it does all boil down to messed up wiring of the brain that has something to do with this specific age that causes a short circuit...my analogy. Then it is puzzling why some react, others don't, but they know something is wrong.....whew
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If their morals, behaviours and character are completely 'out of character', then I would think the above questions would have to do with the degree of severity of whatever is malfunctioning in the brain.
Agree. The severity of the malfunctioning brain.
Sorry that you have so many relatives with bipolar, BA. And that you've had to battle with depression yourself.
Yes, a person who suffered trauma (child or adult) can block it. The blocking will lead to frustration and hurt, frustration and hurt will lead to anger, anger will lead to depression/mania, depression/mania will lead to MLC.
When a person who has been bottle up trauma reaches breaking point, all hell gets loose. Even those who would acknowledge their trauma/hurts, if too stressed will break/run.
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Hi Kiki. Blindsided again and Anjae
Thank you for answering. I guess the reason i am asking is i am beginning to question if i really ever knew the moral standing of my XH. Dr Phil says we often fill in the gaps - seeing what we want to see not the reality of that person. Where my xH is concerned - i am beginning to question how much goes to brain chemistry, how much goes to issue of abandonment in childhood and how much is a lack of morality. But more importantly i have realized i am a rather naive person i take people at face value and i make the silly assumption that their intentions are good because that is the place i come from, and these are the people who are in my life - my family and my friends.
But you see before i started dating XH - i discovered XH had a one night stand (sex) with a woman who was engaged to be married - he had no regard or respect for his fellow man. His brothers cheated on their partners many times and i am beginning to get this sneaky feeling that XH may have cheated on me prior to MLC.
XH's brothers also at one stage owned and operated an escort agency which is a nice way of saying a brothel. When i see how my brother handled his depression (MLC) and how XH did they could not be more different. I sometimes wonder if XH tried to live up to the moral integrity of my family - he used to say that he felt closer to my family than his. This is in part because my family are warm and affectionate people and also, unlike his brothers who for the most part only contacted XH when they needed money, my family were the givers not the takers.
That is why i question whether for some MLCers it goes to character (moral integrity).
take care
moment
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That is why i question whether for some MLCers it goes to character (moral integrity).
This is where each of us needs to take a good look at the person our spouse was, their FOO, who we are and what our marriage actually was.
Each situation and each MLCer is different even though they all seem to run with this script.
By taking an honest outside view of it all, we will all work out whether this person is someone that we want back in our lives.
Some people feel their spouse always had morality/control/narcissistic issues and the crisis has just ramped up those attitudes and behaviours.
Others feel that this is so completely out of character (the crisis behaviours) that this is absolutely nothing like the person that they were.
Having said that, no one is perfect. We all display narcissistic traits at times, but the morality/character issues would be tougher to reconcile if they had always been there. Unless someone wanted to do a whole lot of work on themselves and get help to develop their character in a more positive way. Not sure what the chances of that happening would be though. Kind of remote I would imagine.
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Thank you Kiki :)
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I hope this is in keeping with the topic here; I was going to bring up NLP -- Neuro-linguistic programming.
From what I read this has basically been discredited as a science, it's more a pseudo-science and therapy trick; there is no real regulation on it.
I wonder about what effect it could have, however, as my H behaviour changed (in the months before BD) pretty much in tune with an alternative therapist that we all visited, who used these techniques.
I do know that the practitioner was the original alienator, who took a look at my lovely family and said "I'll have that"; she pumped me for loads of information which I then realised she used on him.....
My H became very defensive when I started saying it seemed cult-like; that was pretty soon before BD, and he was already mentally somewhere else.
There are some who say that these techniques can only work on someone who already is thinking about doing whatever is being suggested; the same way that an OW can only get her hooks into someone who is "available" in the first place.
But I wonder. I do get the idea that men feel shame, and if they felt shame over having been pulled in they might do anything to never admit that they were had, including never returning to a family they loved.
Does anyone know more?
I know that someone once said about things like this, that it is "very easy to get into someone's head, but very hard to get out of it again", i.e. that an unscrupulous practitioner could put all sorts of things "in", and then say "not my problem", when it caused havoc in that person's life....
My H did at one point admit that he had got mixed up with crazy people, and seemed to be moving towards me, reaching out, reaching out, only to go right back in.
Can this have an effect like addiction? I've seen my H move away from things like this, only to snap back in, displaying all the behaviours of someone addicted.
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I hope this is in keeping with the topic here; I was going to bring up NLP -- Neuro-linguistic programming.
Totally in line with the topic. :)
Some time ago, I looked a bit into Neuro-linguistic programming. Can't say I have become a fan.
Like you said, it is not a science, it is a therapy trick. I know it used in business. Not something I would get myself in.
Agree, it is "very easy to get into someone's head, but very hard to get out of it again". But in the case of MLC, the MLCer would go down the shadows no matter what. They may feel more validated if a therapists told them to this or that, but they would still go into the whole MLC path.
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A counsellor once told me that it must have been that which gave him "permission" to let the selfish side of himself loose....
He said that we all have those selfish tendencies, but that we generally keep them in check. But in crisis cases (but this C didn't really believe in MLC) some kind of switch gets flipped, and they stop controlling those tendencies.
So the selfishness takes over.
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IANTE, this is amazing information. It definitely seems like something must be going on in the frontal lobes.
I had never heard of pseudopsychopathic but have often felt like my MLC-H is acting like a psychopath. I will have to research what can lead to this condition, do you know?
NLP could in no way cause MLC behaviors. I have read a lot about it and in fact even tried myself, with positive results. It isn't hypnosis, and nothing is imposed. I think that if someone in MLC got interested in NLP it would fall under category of a hobby/obsession, just like my MLC-H now dabbles with shamanism but shamanism didn't cause his MLC.
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There are certain brain chemicals that allegedly control selfish tendencies. My husband admits to being selfish since his MLC started and if I call him selfish he doesn't even deny it.
He always used to be proud to say, even if he said nonsense, "In the end I always do the right thing." I haven't heard those words out of his mouth in months. Probably because he doesn't care to do the right thing for anyone else anymore, it's all about him.
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I don't think I think that NLP caused his MLC, but I was wondering about triggering some of the behaviours by giving him "permission" to be totally selfish.
I really was wondering if it could have a permanent effect on the brain; it stands to reason (at least to me, but I'm not a scientist) that if it has positive effects, it can also have negative ones....
But I don't think it's a stand-alone.
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That is really interesting information IANTE. Thanks for finding that podcast.
T&L, it's always going to be guesswork, as there is no going back for a re-run, but I suspect your H was manipulated by this woman due to his MLC. MLC could well be 'permanent' in some people no matter what replay activities they engage in.
Written for kids, this does have a great summary on the complexity of the brain regions that involve moral thinking.
https://kids.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/frym.2016.00003
Box 1 - Brain Chemicals and Morality.
Several chemicals produced in the brain, called neuromodulators, influence morality. The hormone, oxytocin, though wrongly called the moral molecule, has received a lot of attention and hype. In humans, oxytocin does increase trust and generosity in some situations but can increase envy and bias in others. What is really interesting from an evolutionary perspective is that this is a very ancient molecule that, across mammalian species, plays a critical role in the mother–child relationship by increasing bonding and reducing fear and anxiety. Another neuromodulator, serotonin, is involved in social behaviors, particularly aggression, and is manufactured in the brain and the intestines. Serotonin has been shown to influence moral judgment by enhancing the negative feelings we have in response to see others experience harm.
Box 2 - The Human Brain Does Not Have One Moral Center or One System that is Devoted Solely to Make Moral Decisions.
Instead, various regions and circuits of the brain that are associated with emotion, planning, problem solving, understanding others, and social behavior are recruited when making moral judgments. These parts of the brain include
– Medial prefrontal cortex plays an important role in interpreting and understanding the thoughts and mental states of ourselves and others.
– Amygdala is important for emotional (positive and negative) reactions.
– Ventromedial prefrontal cortex: a critical hub for caregiving behaviors, morality, and decision-making, by combining cognitive and emotional processes necessary to guide social behavior.
– Dorsolateral prefrontal cortex plays an important role in self-control and intelligence.
– Insula provides the foundation for being aware of our body feels.
– Posterior superior temporal sulcus is a key region to understand the intentions of others.
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No, MLCers are not psychopaths. Psychopath fell no guilt or shame. MLCers do. I had been having a long conversation with one of my brother's girlfriends who is becoming a doctor. She loves neurology and knows I am into in. We talked about many issues, including big farma, neurology, neuroscience and psychiatry. She had during her training, see psychopaths, she says they are very strange.
Kikki, you were right on the money, big farma is not interested in any research that does not lead to big bucks. They are not even interested in anything that can be cured. They only like chronic illnesses, illness causded by virus, many of which are scientifically curable, and so on. My brother's girlfriend also told that therapist don't have much of an interest in a number of things to be solved/cured because that means they would be out of a job.
Another thing she confirmed is that psychiatric is being more and more merged with neurology. Psychiatry used to have epilepsy epilepsy and the dementias, but when organic causes for those were found, they moved to neurology. She says soon, as more and more is knows and since no psychiatric illness falls out of the blue, mentall illness will be on neurology. However, she left it clear that, for now, there is no knowledge to cure mentall illness (aside from the least serious typed of depression). Same for the dememtias, we still cannot cure them. And because of big pharma, may never will. But meds to stop Alzeimer's and Parkinson's from going futther are already on clinical trials and, at a point, will be on the marked.
Also, several European countries, Portugal included, have the right to produce meds that big pharma has no interest on, and there are several research groups here and in other countries working on meds that will be produced by the state. The idea is that the French state will produce one type of those meds, Germany another, Portugal yet another and so on. There will no profit on those meds.
Anothe thing she told me, and I think we are all aware of it, is how difficult it is to diagnose, let alone correctly, a mental illness. Psychiatris relly on self reference, a bit on relatives of the patient reference, and not much more. In POrtugal, a psychiatris (I am talking about the National Health Service ones) will tend to request blood tests and a brain scan to eliminate organic causes (thyroid, brain tumour, etc). Then, it is more or less a guess and going by their knowledge. She says psychiatrists have it rough because their diagnosis is essencially based on their accement, not on tests.
High Energy MLCers do not have reduced activity, quite the opposite. I don't think they suffer from Frontal Lobe Syndrome. Plus, when the crisis is over, they go back to normal. I am not saying that the frontal is not affected, ut may be, but they don't have the syndrome in itself.
Still, we know much more about the brain than we did, but we still do not know enough. And it is doubful that anyone will be interested in financing a study of MLCers, their brains, hormonal levels, etc. Unless some charitable eccentric billionaire is up to it.
MLCers have their brain chemicals changed. Depression alone would be a reason for the change in moral behaviour because of all the brain areas it affects. Same for when one is drunk. Being drunk affects several brain areas and leasd to all sorts of behaviours.
I think we more or less have an idea of what is going on inside the MLCers brain. But we have no way of treat it. And that is the problem.
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Thanks for that update Anjae - always very interesting to hear what other medical professionals are being taught.
big farma is not interested in any research that does not lead to big bucks. They are not even interested in anything that can be cured. They only like chronic illnesses, illness causded by virus, many of which are scientifically curable, and so on. My brother's girlfriend also told that therapist don't have much of an interest in a number of things to be solved/cured because that means they would be out of a job.
It's pretty sad to realise that even people who are meant to be working in the caring professions, are often more interested in their own back pocket than doing the best they can for people.
So yes agree, anything chronic and incurable is what they're interested in.
Also, several European countries, Portugal included, have the right to produce meds that big pharma has no interest on, and there are several research groups here and in other countries working on meds that will be produced by the state. The idea is that the French state will produce one type of those meds, Germany another, Portugal yet another and so on. There will no profit on those meds.
Very happy to hear this.
Psychiatry used to have epilepsy epilepsy and the dementias, but when organic causes for those were found, they moved to neurology. She says soon, as more and more is knows and since no psychiatric illness falls out of the blue, mentall illness will be on neurology.
I think when that day comes, we are going to at least feel a little validated for the h*ll that most of us and our children have been put through.
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Big pharma is not in the caring professions. I think they are only in the profit profession. One thing that always makes my eyes go is the price of meds and medincine in the US. In countries like Portugal, that have a National Health Service, things are very different. And, in fact, private hospitals here are not as good as NHS ones.
I think when that day comes, we are going to at least feel a little validated for the h*ll that most of us and our children have been put through.
Agree.
I am quite confident that science, and the areas connected with neurobiology, biochemestry, brain research, staminal cells will develop a lot. Staminal cells is another area big pharma does not really like. It allow for a lot of illness and medical conditions to be cured/treatable. Bio engineering/biomedical engineering will also grow. One of the ideas for strokes is brain microchips that will alkow motor function to be recoved. That is a job for neuro surgeons and bio-Engineers.
Big pharma has a lot of power, but people are becoming more and more aware of what science is possible and will, at a point, start to want better solutions than just meds. Even because a lot is and or will be possible.
Will we still need meds? I think so, but science will allow for a lot of medical problems to be solved.
We will also know more and more about the brain. Even if the brain is tricky. It is too complex, it rules everything. A brain dead person is dead. If plugged to a machines, heart and lungs work, but it the machine working, not the person's body.
Neurology goes further than just the brain in itself. It encompasses all our nerons, from the brain to the digestive tract neurons (enteric nervous system). And, of course, all our nerves are of the domain of neurology. So, the neuro medicine and sciences have a wide scope of action/research that I think will be paramount for many future medical improvements.
Personally, I would put MLC on the domain of neurology rather than psychiatry. We know hormones play a huge role on it, so that is what psychiatris call an organic cause. If brain areas are altered, that is also neurologic. In fact, it could be said all mentall illnesses are neurological illnesses because they affect the brain/come from affected areas of the brain (or run by the brain).
I am really enjoying talking to the girlfriends of two of my brothers. One is already a doctor, the other is on her way to be one. One is on her mid thirties, the other on her early twenties. They see things in a modern way and they have practice from the field, which is interesting and useful. I have been learning a lot with the two of them.
You are also back on the field, Kikki. So you also have practice from day to day hospital life and medical reality. A thing that I think is very helpful because it allows for knowledge and put things in perspective.
I am waiting for osb to come around and tells us what she thinks of what we have been discussing of late. :)
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Hi Velika,
Unfortunately I don't have enough of a science background to fully understand all of the factors; these types of conditions seem very complex. I found an abstract that relates certain traits ("glibness, lack of empathy, guilt or remorse, shallow affect, and irresponsibility, and behavioral characteristics such as impulsivity, poor behavioral control, and promiscuity") to damage to specific areas of the brain (the orbital frontal cortex, insula, anterior and posterior cingulate, amygdala, parahippocampal gyrus, and anterior superior temporal gyrus):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2765815/
I personally think neurotransmitter imbalances (dopamine, GABA, serotonin) are factors.
Kikki, Anjae - Thanks for the contributions. Reading along with interest.
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I found an abstract that relates certain traits ("glibness, lack of empathy, guilt or remorse, shallow affect, and irresponsibility, and behavioral characteristics such as impulsivity, poor behavioral control, and promiscuity") to damage to specific areas of the brain (the orbital frontal cortex, insula, anterior and posterior cingulate, amygdala, parahippocampal gyrus, and anterior superior temporal gyrus):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2765815/
I personally think neurotransmitter imbalances (dopamine, GABA, serotonin) are factors.
This beautifully sums up the sudden behaviour and personality changes in my MLCer. And I guess that's why we're all on this thread. We intuitively knew from day one that something had severely gone wrong in our H's brains to manifest as it was manifesting.
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Thank you Iamnottheenemy....that article about psychopathy was really interesting and thought provoking.
We intuitively knew from day one that something had severely gone wrong in our H's brains to manifest as it was manifesting.
I agree 100%
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Joining in the chorus. It makes me so sad, though, for all of us. We didn't deserve this, and neither do they. Years of their life, altered and lost.
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IANTE, so interesting.
A few things I often wonder about re neurobiology and MLC:
- Why the sudden onset? I know I have read on other threads that there is an initial awareness that something is not right, but there seems to come a point when the person lacks awareness and instead projects outward. What might explain this if there is a chemical imbalance?
- What role might exercise play in this? It seems like many MLCs are preceded by sudden, intense fitness regimen. Would weight loss or endorphins play a role on brain chemistry?
- (Related) A neurologist I spoke with told me that my MLC-H may have had a small stroke or aneurism. I remember feeling concerned that he was exercising so intensely that he could have a stroke. Could it be that our spouses' sudden behavior/personality change is not biochemical but biophysical? Has anyone looked into this?
- (Also related) My husband's MLC presented along with intense migraines. These coincided with SSRI use. I recently saw him and he was rubbing his temples. Has anyone else witnessed this in his/her MLC spouse? If so where were the headaches located, and were they accompanied by fevers or other physical symptoms?
- Vis a vis "pseudopsychopathy"/psychopathy. In the years leading up to bomb drop my MLC-H became increasingly interested in boxing. Post bomb drop several people told me they thought this was strange and out of character. I remember at times catching him watching a boxing match with a kind of blank look in his eyes and feeling a little unsettled. Now he is on to hunting, and even watching videos of how to skin animals. I know R2T mentioned these same interests in her MLCer who prior to MLC was a vegetarian. Have others also noticed an interest in violence in the MLCer?
Thank you in advance for any insights.
PS It is nice to read this thread with just insights and questions about neurobiology. Thank you!
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Neurology and neurobiology and not the same thing. A neurologist wouldn't necessarily know anything about nerobiology or psychopathy.
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Neurology and neurobiology and not the same thing.
Forgive my clumsy terminology. I mean a sort of general idea about how the brain is physically operating.
Updated to add: I think others will understand general meaning behind my question. Thank you!
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I know I sound like a broken record, but MLCers do not suffer from psychopathy. Psychopathy is not reversible, MLC is. Once the crisis is over, the person goes back to normal.
We really have no idea what areas of the brain are affected during MLC, but the ones that are, are not permanently affected, as they would be in psychopathy (or another personality disorder). Same for most mood disorders, they are not reversible (some types of depression are, by bipolar or schizophrenia aren't).
One day there may be knowledge to reverse personality disorder as well as the irreversible mood disorder. For now, the best it is possible, it to have people who suffer from any of those conditions stable (sually with medication).
MLC is different. It is also different from conditions that permanently affect the brain. It is, for example, more similar to post-partum depression, since like post-partum depression, once it is gone, the persson is back to normal.
Neurotransmitters imbalance? For sure. MLC seems to have chemical imbalances of all sorts (hormones and neurotransmitters are chemicals).
But, can we please stop trying to link MLC to psycopathy and other personality disorders? Personality disorder do not show in adulthood. People who suffer from them don't go back to normal once the storm is over.
I don't think MLC is such a complicated thing from a neuro point of view. It is pretty much covert depression. Not that it is an easy thing, but it certainly is not psychopathy or schizophrenia.
- Why the sudden onset? I know I have read on other threads that there is an initial awareness that something is not right, but there seems to come a point when the person lacks awareness and instead projects outward. What might explain this if there is a chemical imbalance?
Easy, a chemical imbalance will get worst. Think menopause. Women have an awareness of it. However, for some women, the hormonal changes are very big and the woman starts to act strange, including projecting outward.
For MLCers, the depression is getting worst and worst. Outward projection is normal in depression. The person cannot see clear.
- What role might exercise play in this? It seems like many MLCs are preceded by sudden, intense fitness regimen. Would weight loss or endorphins play a role on brain chemistry?
Yes, weight loss and or/endorphins would play a role in brain chemesty. Those two things provoke changes in the brain. Same for adrenaline. However, and unlike what people think, exercise alone does not solve depression, If it did there would be no depressed sports peopel, and there are. And, of course, MLCers who exercise would stop being depressed. They don't.
- (Related) A neurologist I spoke with told me that my MLC-H may have had a small stroke or aneurism. I remember feeling concerned that he was exercising so intensely that he could have a stroke. Could it be that our spouses' sudden behavior/personality change is not biochemical but biophysical? Has anyone looked into this?
Your husband could have had a stoke, or a aneurism, but have you ever seen a stroke or aneurism surviver? Trust me, they don't look like, or act like the way our MLCers do. They will have impairments and they need a recovery period. MLCers just keep speeding up. Well, biochemical is part of the biophysical and biophysical can involve biochemical.
PS: as an aside, how many of you have actually seen and talked to a real psycopath, let alone live with one? There is very strict criteria for someone to be a real psycopath. Trust me, you would have know if your spouse was one.
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Anjae, don't think any of us (don't want to speak for anyone else but that was my assumption) were suggesting our MLCers were psychopaths.
We were noting the extreme changes in behaviour and personality and wondering if it was possible that those same areas of the brain had been affected by something (neurotransmitters, inflammation, reduced blood flow due to the depression etc) to produce out of character, unfeeling behaviours.
It is possible to have TIA's (transient ischaemic attacks) that are not full blown strokes that do not necessarily manifest in physical symptoms, or miniscule brain bleeds that affect a certain brain region but are not discovered because the person is not rocking up for a brain scan.
At this stage, none of us who have been in this for any length of time have any clue whether our MLCers will ever be normal again. Sometimes, it doesn't seem to be reversible.
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Anjae, don't think any of us (don't want to speak for anyone else but that was my assumption) were suggesting our MLCers were psychopaths.
Maybe not, but that is the idea that, at least to me, comes across, especially if articles about psycopathy are posted. And it is not the first time that it is mentioned that the MLCer is a psycopath. Or a narcissit. Or having some other personality disorder. I don't mean necessarly on this thread, but on the board.
I know it has to do with the parts of the brain that may be affected. But even if they are the same, the effect is not the same. And it is never enough to stress that, as a general rule, MLC is temporary.
Depression would explain all we see, including the out of character traits. Same with hormones. Or a combination of both.
We all would like to know what causes MLC and how to solve it, but I think we sometimes go too far and get into very complicated things, when, most likely, it is something relatively simple when compared to many neurological or psychiatric issues. It is just that nearly no one in the health professions is paying any attention to it.
And, of course, it would really help if MLCers calmed down their crazy lives. But they don't.
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Anjae
I know I sound like a broken record, but MLCers do not suffer from psychopathy. Psychopathy is not reversible, MLC is. Once the crisis is over, the person goes back to normal.
I think that it may be that not all the spouses on here are having a MLC....indeed, after 7 1/2 years I see no signs of his crisis being over, I do however see signs that are listed under psychopathy. I also see signs of narcissism and depression and Aspergers and other mental health issues.
His actions, the way he lives his life...there is something really really wrong. He is one who I cannot see coming out of this...in some ways he is worse now than ever.
I don't know why, but I "suspect" something going on in his prefrontal lobe...articles like this help to educate me about the many things that can happen when there is a pathology in the brain and the causation of the change in behavior.
Since there is not any diagnostic test for MLC, we do see some come through their crisis but I am not sure these long term crazy spouses will ever "get better".
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Anjae, don't think any of us (don't want to speak for anyone else but that was my assumption) were suggesting our MLCers were psychopaths.
We were noting the extreme changes in behaviour and personality and wondering if it was possible that those same areas of the brain had been affected by something (neurotransmitters, inflammation, reduced blood flow due to the depression etc) to produce out of character, unfeeling behaviours.
At this stage, none of us who have been in this for any length of time have any clue whether our MLCers will ever be normal again. Sometimes, it doesn't seem to be reversible.
Yes, I think the best way to try to understand what might be going on with the brain and regions that might be affected is to compare to better understood conditions or patterns of behavior.
I read that because depression and psychopathy affect the same regions, you can learn more about each by studying the other.
I was told by the neurologist that small aneurysms and strokes can go unnoticed. I can't claim any of our spouses had this.
I agree that there is no reassurance any of these MLC spouses can recover.
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Maybe not, but that is the idea that, at least to me, comes across, especially if articles about psycopathy are posted. And it is not the first time that it is mentioned that the MLCer is a psycopath. Or a narcissit. Or having some other personality disorder. I don't mean necessarly on this thread, but on the board.
Although you do know that those of us that are on these particular threads have always believed that something went seriously wrong in their brains to produce these sudden behaviours.
I didn't read the whole article, but if those particular brain areas are not functioning in psychopaths, it would appear that they are born that way, and it is not their fault per se, but of course they remain a chilling threat to society. Or as one of the famous examples showed, accidental injury to a particular brain area showed an extreme change in personality. We just don't have obvious reasons for the extreme changes. And because it involves an OW/OM, it gets masked behind that.
Our MLCers have developed some especially chilling thought processes and behaviours. They may resolve, we all hope they do, but some simply will not.
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Yes, I think the best way to try to understand what might be going on with the brain and regions that might be affected is to compare to better understood conditions or patterns of behavior.
We have been doing this for years. I am not certain that, in the end, it took us mucn further than depression.
We do not have any idea exactly what MLC affects. We have no scans, no tests of MLCers brains, hormones, blood tests. The article about psycopatjy states: "It is important to recognize that this method provides only indirect evidence of the possible regions implicated in psychopathic symptomatology" most likely because no one knows exactly which regiong are affected nor has direct evidence.
Kikki, if you read the article, they really don't any certainty about the brain regions. It is the same for most psychiatic issues, until it is know what causes them, they are psychiatry, when the cause becomes know (like dementias or epylepsy) it becomes neurology.
Psychopathy is of real mof psychiatry, meaning it is not known what causes it or what areas of the brain are trully affected. It is thought that psychopathy comes from birth.
I was told by the neurologist that small aneurysms and strokes can go unnoticed. I can't claim any of our spouses had this.
I don't know about small aneurysms, but small/tiny strokes can, and often, go unnoticed. it is not possible to know if any of our spouses had one of those. And they may have had it and be totally separated from MLC.
We really do not know that much. We know MLCers suffer a personality and behaviour change. We know that once out of crisis the MLCer strange behaviours are one, thus the damages/affect parts of the brain is not permanent.
Kikki, I am fairly sure something went wrong in the brain and at an hormonal level. Stress is an hormone and, for me, stress is a huge factor in MLC. Stress has big effects on the brain, behaviour, etc. I just don't think it is something much more complicated than stress and depression and its effects on the brain.
Those effects can cause many damages while the person in under suich stress and depressed. But in MLC, once the crisis is gone, the behaviours are also gone and the person goes back to normal. So, the effects are temporary. Which makes sense. Once the crazy MLC behaviour/lifestyle ends, the levels go back to normal.
Or better, once LIminal Depression wears off. Liminality is a hard place and one where things are still imbalanced.
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Fascinating discussion, guys - and some thought-provoking articles.
You're right that many of us frequent this thread because we truly believe there's something organic going wrong / gone wrong in our MLC partner's heads. But like so many things in medicine, this too is likely multi-factorial. Was it exposure to stress hormones during their gestation? Their FOO troubles in childhood? Hormonal changes in mid-life? Possibly yes to all of those things - any combination of which might've tipped an already overwhelmed, depressed person from the 'coping' column toward the maladaptive 'losing it' column.
I do suspect there's an underlying depressive component to MLC. So many of the affective symptoms of depression seem to reproduce themselves in the lead up to MLC (and also in the escape-avoid phase). That doesn't mean depression is the trigger - it could be all the other triggers create the maladaptive situation, and a situational depression is the result of that. The mix is explosive, though.
We really have no idea what areas of the brain are affected during MLC, but the ones that are, are not permanently affected, as they would be in psychopathy (or another personality disorder). Same for most mood disorders, they are not reversible (some types of depression are, by bipolar or schizophrenia aren't).
MLC is different. It is also different from conditions that permanently affect the brain. It is, for example, more similar to post-partum depression, since like post-partum depression, once it is gone, the person is back to normal.
Weight loss and or/endorphins would play a role in brain chemesty. Those two things provoke changes in the brain. Same for adrenaline. However, and unlike what people think, exercise alone does not solve depression, If it did there would be no depressed sports people, and there are. And, of course, MLCers who exercise would stop being depressed. They don't.
Some great points. There was a study I read recently (sorry, will post link if I can find it) comparing brain PET scans (measuring metabolic activity by brain region) from folks with post-partum depression, versus other depressions, while they were asked a series of diagnostic questions. PP depression was quite unique in the brain regions affected. Maybe that has something to do with its peculiar hormonal triggers, maybe reflects the violent speed at which thought processes get scrambled... and maybe holds some clue as to its reversibility. FWIW, it happened to remind me of the list of brain regions kikki mentioned, with respect to MLC thought process changes. Maybe PP depression and MLC have some commonalities?
Endorphins and adrenaline do seem to temporarily alleviate depressive symptoms - many athletes I know use the "runner's high" to pull themselves out of incipient depression. Some of our MLCers have tried the same (think frantic rat on treadmill), though I think in all cases it failed to work, at some point. Well, of course it did; because if exercise had served as a cure for our partners (instead of a temporary fix), guess we wouldn't be here on this board discussing it ;)
That's just my two bits. I'd love to see a brain PET scan of an MLCer... but then, there's just this little issue of research consent, which they'd all be highly unlikely to provide...
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We do not have any idea exactly what MLC affects. We have no scans, no tests of MLCers brains, hormones, blood tests. The article about psycopatjy states: "It is important to recognize that this method provides only indirect evidence of the possible regions implicated in psychopathic symptomatology" most likely because no one knows exactly which regiong are affected nor has direct evidence.
That's right. Like most links on these threads, it's a possible suggestion for being a possible piece of the puzzle and we all hope that more in known concretely in the future.
Those effects can cause many damages while the person in under suich stress and depressed. But in MLC, once the crisis is gone, the behaviours are also gone and the person goes back to normal. So, the effects are temporary. Which makes sense. Once the crazy MLC behaviour/lifestyle ends, the levels go back to normal.
Or better, once LIminal Depression wears off. Liminality is a hard place and one where things are still imbalanced.
Yes, that definitely is the hope.
But it won't stop our wondering when other potentials come along our path.
There was a study I read recently (sorry, will post link if I can find it) comparing brain PET scans (measuring metabolic activity by brain region) from folks with post-partum depression, versus other depressions, while they were asked a series of diagnostic questions. PP depression was quite unique in the brain regions affected. Maybe that has something to do with its peculiar hormonal triggers, maybe reflects the violent speed at which thought processes get scrambled... and maybe holds some clue as to its reversibility. FWIW, it happened to remind me of the list of brain regions kikki mentioned, with respect to MLC thought process changes. Maybe PP depression and MLC have some commonalities?
That's very nteresting Osb. Would absolutely love to scan a MLCer's brain too - or rather, at least a thousand of them.
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Nice to see you write here, osb. :)
But like so many things in medicine, this too is likely multi-factorial.
Agree. MLC is most likely a multi-factor thing.
...any combination of which might've tipped an already overwhelmed, depressed person from the 'coping' column toward the maladaptive 'losing it' column.
This makes a lot of sense to me. If an already depressed person is confronted with another, or several other issues, the person may lose the hability to cope. I think that happened to be at BD. There was a pike of things, I was very stressed, I coped poorly.
Maybe PP depression and MLC have some commonalities?
It could be. When I think of the similarities between post-partum depression and MLC I think of Shantilly Lace/Hope Floats and of what she used to write abour her post-partum depression. It was very similar to what we read from former MLCers. Same with her behaviour and thought patterns while depressed.
Some of our MLCers have tried the same (think frantic rat on treadmill), though I think in all cases it failed to work, at some point. Well, of course it did; because if exercise had served as a cure for our partners (instead of a temporary fix), guess we wouldn't be here on this board discussing it ;)
No, we would not. We would had all been thrilled our MLCers decide to exercise and got rid ot their depression. If only...
Like most links on these threads, it's a possible suggestion for being a possible piece of the puzzle and we all hope that more in known concretely in the future.
Indeed. But it is one of those very big puzzles, with tiny, tiny pieces. One day we may be able to have the complete puzzle.
Would absolutely love to scan a MLCer's brain too - or rather, at least a thousand of them.
So would I.
...but then, there's just this little issue of research consent, which they'd all be highly unlikely to provide...
I think Kikki remembers my tranquilizing dart suggestion ... maybe that woukd allow us to take our MLcers to be scanned. ::)
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This is fascinating. I believe that something very sudden happened. The change in him so profound that even our children noticed. Along with extended family who didn't even live with him.
I hsve an extreme MLCer. Almost constant monster. Very bizarre. The exercise cane briefly after. Like a mad man. Four hours at night but for ten days.
Drugs , too.
I think ow is another vice. I've long struggled to understand what exactly happened. My H has a very long list of mental illness in his family. My ic says he seems to have traits of multiple personality disorders. But he never had signs of this before. We've been friends since we were ten. I've struggled with the idea a personality disorder could just " appear ".
Following along. Thank you for this discussion.
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Christina,
I don't believe, if you've known him since he was 10 years old, a personality disorder would just magically appear.
It would have manifested itself WAY before now.
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I have shared this elsewhere, but a friend who had postpartum depression told me what I was describing with my husband sounded very similar to her experience.
She said the urge to run away was very strong, that she felt like she was two different people, that she couldn't feel empathy for anyone, that she hated herself. She told me however that she wanted to run away because she felt that others would be better off without her, whereas in MLC it seems like the assertion is that the MLCer would be better off without the LBS.
But there are some peculiarities with MLC that I feel must offer clues as to what is going on as C4E explained. Some of the details are so very minor.
I was chatting with another HS member today and the similarities in some small details were incredible.
One thing I have seen on many threads and experienced myself is a) MLCer calling or threatening to call the police on the LBS; b) MLCer refusing to let the LBS touch him/her or acting "allergic" to the LBS when previously they had been affectionate; c) Hanging up or running away (literally) when talking to LBS; and d) Fearful look in the eyes.
Are these peculiar and specific traits a result of amygdala disfunction? Are they similar to any other syndrome?
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I've seen them all mentioned surrounding serotonin levels, but again, you, me, and several others here are dealing with MLCers who may be having some sort of SSRI withdrawal or reaction. Mine described feeling as though he had a "burning aura" that would not allow me to touch him.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1837756 is a new one I hadn't found before, just to add to the bookmarks.
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I don't feel the 'touch sensitivity' has anything to do with any drug withdrawal. My H takes nothing nad has that too.
It's all in their mind.
Reminds me of when children say someone has cooties lol
As far as PP depression I'd tend to agree it's similar. Just as a female menopausal symptoms also. Hormones play a major role.
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There was an article I came across in one of the resources threads here about midlife crisis in executives. It was not looking at it from the perspective of marital relations like we do, but in terms of the behavior of executives in organizations. One thing it talked about is something called alexithymia, an inability to recognize emotions.
I have posted elsewhere in these forums that my husband has admitted to me he has no feelings for anyone right now, that he does not miss me. and how he simply cannot fathom that I would miss him or be upset about our situation. He revealed this in a calm and caring (as caring as an MLCer can be) conversation between us. It wasn't an angry reaction as sometimes MLCers manifest if we show them we are upset. He truly did not understand how I could be upset and kept asking me why I would miss him as if this was such a strange concept.
It left me with a nagging feeling that there was some connection here and so now I looked up some research articles on alexithymia and it really has been a lightbulb moment for me. I haven't read much yet so I am not ready to put down my thoughts in full yet. But what I want to look for is how behavior my husband is showing and the behavior of MLCers described by so many others here corresponds to the behavior of those with alexithymia. I'm also curious how some of the advice that we find in articles by RCR or HB would be helpful in dealing with someone with alexithymia. For example, I read something about in alexithymia how they perceive negative emotions in themselves as being negative emotions in others.
We read about co-dependency between the MLCer and their spouse. We read so much about projection. I'm also wondering how detachment or going no contact could be a method that would help to force them to realize the negative emotions are within themselves because it cuts them off from the opportunity to (wrongly) perceive the negative emotions as coming from the spouse.
I am not entirely convinced that there is nothing we can do to help our MLCers. Maybe not directly, as it is a crisis within them, but I do believe our own behavior can impact the potential outcome FOR OURSELVES if we want a relationship with our spouse. If part of MLC is an enhanced feeling of negative emotions in others, for example, showing less negative emotions or not allowing the MLCer to perceive emotions of any kind in us may actually be beneficial to their perception of us. So when they perceive negative emotions, they are forced to recognize they are internal in the absence of any external stimuli.
I'm going to do more research on this topic. I think focusing on clusters of symptoms like this is more fruitful for those of us who don't have a background in hard sciences.
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We talked about it at length - it was a big issue, prior to BD - and it definitely was a physical symptom. I've found reference to it, not described the same way he did, but it helped me to understand more what he was experiencing.
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There are apparently some sort of correlations between alexithymia and sensitivity to touch. I'd have to read the full articles on these topics though to fully understand what it is.
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Here's one of the articles that I found interesting. They found that alexithymia correlated with identifying more negative emotions in others:
http://jes2s.com/may2014/Alexithymia.html
So to translate that into MLCers. They are imagining we have negative thoughts when we don't.
Another thing that struck be during a recent conversation I had with my husband is that when I told him he seemed depressed, he responded, "I'm not depressed..." Basically he denied being depressed but his voice trailed off as if he was looking for the right word to describe what he felt but he couldn't. And this is one of the characteristics of alexithymia, the inability to describe emotions.
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Here's someone describing what sounds like MLC in an alexithymia forum: http://www.alexithymia.us/forum_In+a+relationship+with+a+person+who+has+alexithymia.html?topicid=662&pageid=
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As ever, interesting. I had actually never heard the term "alexithmya" before.
Certainly my H has difficulty describing emotions, although he has regularly articulated that he feels guilty. But then he has also repeatedly said that "guilt is a negative emotion, and I don't want to feel that".
A counsellor who met him closer to the beginning of all this said that he had never met a person with less empathy. But again, he only met MLC H, hadn't known him before.
One thing that I observed last year, when we last had a conversation about it, was that when I asked if he could put himself into my shoes he absolutely didn't know how to even approach that. I asked if he could look at it from my point of view and that also didn't register. I was surprised, because at the beginning of all this I asked what he'd feel like if it had been the other way round and he said "devastated".
But looking from my point of view doesn't seem to register. He can think about how HE feels, but not how anyone else feels. My D has tried to talk about it; she has said to him that she finds it difficult to talk about feelings, all he says is that yes, me too. And then laughs, as if it's "OK", because they both do that.
So he in some way acknowledges it, but it doesn't go anywhere near to thinking that this should be in some way addressed, that it might not be right.
I know that during this whole mess I have tried to look at what on earth happened, it does keep coming round to depression, although he of course denies that, insisting that it's all me. And that just finding the right other person will fix everything.
I know that people we know have been grasping at straws, wondering if the complete personality change and complete lack of empathy is due to latent aspergers (not possible), or bipolar (again, I really don't think that's the case) or something else.
We all, of course, go looking for something that we could treat.
I have some other experience with this; one of my sons has a whole host of difficulties; for years we had no diagnosis; it's not been diagnosed as autism, although there are things in common with that; his profile is considered "spiky", because he can do some things you'd think he couldn't do, and can't do some things you'd think he could do.
Much is to do with language, and in his case there WAS some brain damage at birth. Although the doctors said that it should only affect motor skills, I'm absolutely convinced that it affects other things as well; even the neurologists were the first to say that they are never sure how the brain works, that when one function gets impaired another part of the brain can take over that function, but then something can happen to what that second part was supposed to do int he first place.
It's knock-on effects, and it's not something that they can predict.
In my S's case brain scans were done when he was a baby; last year he was in an accident and some more were done, as far as I know not showing a difference. As we no longer have the original scans, the doctors were concerned that the damage was new, as the accident certainly could have caused that.
I do think that, at least in my own H's case, it's to do with wanting to feel; that's the depression, and they need the heightened feeling. My H very much needed/wanted high-adrenaline things; I don't think he knows what love actually is, to him it's the infatuation as far as I can tell.
At least the fact that he is on OW6 seems to bear that out.
But he's also needed high-adrenaline in other areas of life; for years and years his job did that, then his hobby, all risky things.
I am wondering if the years of a high-adrenaline environment trained his brain somehow to not be able to accept anything "less" as a positive.
I do know that the brain can be trained, because of my experience with my children I spent much time working on this, although they were mostly talking about physical things, such as getting a certain movement back in a hand or foot. As long as there was some nerve connection there was the possibility of doing this.
I also saw in my H, when he had an extended period without the "high" of an OW, that he really seemed to be returning to the person I knew, that his thinking seemed more clear.... he even showed pretty strong signs of starting to consider the possibility of some empathy for me.
and you know the rest, the addiction returned, and so did monster and any ability to look at me and the children as having valid thoughts and feelings.
I know from my S that when the environment is stable and safe he is able to think a bit more clearly; the minute it isn't all falls apart.
But with S this was clearly due to brain injury at birth, whatever we all say about how men process information, etc.
H wasn't always like that; hence us all trying to find something with a name to attribute it to.
But yes, I do wonder if there is something in H's brain that simply hasn't been identified, that perhaps my S is just a more extreme version of it.
I do know that he is acting on emotion, rather than clear thought.
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I'm wondering whether alexithymia could explain the rewriting of history that MLCers do. I mean when they say, I never loved you, our marriage was unhappy, etc. etc. and we know this simply isn't true.
To me what is so interesting is that as much as it seems like there is no logic to the MLCer mind, maybe there is actually an internal logic to it that we can find to explain some of the really odd stuff.
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C4E, I agree. There are just too many specific medical symptoms and peculiarities common to these stories.
I have read on some threads about the stiff walk of a MLCer. Have others noticed this?
I looked up gait abnormalities and found this:
Frontal lobe systems involved in balance and gait include primary motor cortex, supplementary motor area, and prefrontal cortex.7 The frontal lobe projects to subcortical structures through periventricular white matter tracts in which the leg fibers are the most medial, hence the legs are most vulnerable to injury starting periventricularly.8 The extent of white matter disease when examined by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) predicts the likelihood of balance and gait problems.
So an illness/syndrome that affects the frontal lobe could also affect a person's motor fundtion.
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I keep reading about the eyes getting darker. My husband has pretty dark eyes to begin with so I am not sure I could ascertain this. I don't know about the gait thing either. I haven't noticed it.
I have read anecdotal stuff about certain mental illnesses being associated with a change in eye color, but couldn't find anything definite.
I keep thinking back to this article:
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_progress_back-limbo-forward_doubt-and-confusion.html
The quote from the MLCer about when his wife stopped reacting. If it is alexithymia, perhaps the lack of reaction forces them to have no choice but to look inside themselves. Although I am not sure that is always going to happen, as sometimes i think they interpret silence negatively as well.
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One fascinating thing that came up in my chat with another HS a member last night was sudden change in accent around bomb drop.
My husband would suddenly speak to me in a strong regional accent of his youth. My brother in law ran into him around this time and confirmed this.
Not only would he use this accent, he would also use colloquial expressions associated with this region. I had noticed sometimes when he went home his accent got stronger but this was much more extreme. This stopped after bomb drop as far as I know but I seldom talk to him anymore.
M
The other HS member noticed exact same in her husband, in another language!
Another change in "speech" was his writing style. What had previously been straightforward communication style became emotional and florid. A friend just told me he had reached out to her husband last spring and she noticed the exact same thing. She brought this up even though I had forgotten I had told her. The writing is almost overwrought.
Has anyone else observed this?
I tried to investigate and saw there is something called Foreign Accent Syndrome that can have neurological and psychological basis.
Approximately 86 percent of cases are linked to neurological damage in the speech centers of the brain, from strokes, trauma, or other diseases like multiple sclerosis, according to a study published earlier this year in the journal Frontiers in Human Neuroscience. These patients usually don't take on a specific accent — for example, they don't have a true German accent — but the general changes in their prosody, or speech, can be mistaken for a specific foreigner.
A second type of FAS is not associated to any brain changes at all. These cases are often psychological in nature. For example, anxiety, depression, or emotional trauma can change aspects of how the brain interprets information and can cause someone to change their speech patterns, according to the Frontiers in Human Neuroscience journal. This can happen even though there is no physiological trauma to the brain that can be detected. However, this does not mean a patient is "faking it," it just means changes have happened in their brain on a subconscious level.
I'm not sure this is related but it is another physical symptom I have noticed.
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I keep reading about the eyes getting darker. My husband has pretty dark eyes to begin with so I am not sure I could ascertain this. I don't know about the gait thing either. I haven't noticed it.
I have read anecdotal stuff about certain mental illnesses being associated with a change in eye color, but couldn't find anything definite.
I keep thinking back to this article:
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_progress_back-limbo-forward_doubt-and-confusion.html
The quote from the MLCer about when his wife stopped reacting. If it is alexithymia, perhaps the lack of reaction forces them to have no choice but to look inside themselves. Although I am not sure that is always going to happen, as sometimes i think they interpret silence negatively as well.
Thank you for posting this article, I hadn't read it in a while.
I agree that the best thing is to stop reacting or maintain minimum contact until that is possible.
I have noticed, however, that my husband last year would use any reaction as an excuse.
So if I argued, then we couldn't be together. If I don't talk to him and won't be "friends," this justifies whatever decision he wants to make at the time. When I was kind or validating, however, he would feel satisfied it was all working out and I think this too exacerbated his condition as he didn't have to face any consequences.
Fundamentally I agree however -- less emotion from LBS the better.
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Christina, personality disorders do not show in adulthood. They tend to show in adolescence, somtimes earlier, and, at most, in early twenties.
Like Thunder said, if you've known your husband since 10, you had already noticed it.
Interesting about the alexithymia, but I don't think so. Depression is more what MLCer are suffering from. RCR and HB probably could not tell how to relate with alexithymia because that is most likely something that is not affecting MLCers. And even it it was, none of them is a doctor or a psychologist. Alexithymia is usually combined with other psychiatric issues, so, yes, it could be there, brought by the depression, but the main issue with MLCers is depression. Neither RCR nor HB have specific advise to deal with depressed people because, like I said, they are not doctors or psychologists.
I think focusing on clusters of symptoms like this is more fruitful for those of us who don't have a background in hard sciences.
Maybe, but this thread is for Biochemistry, Neurotransmitters, and Brain Research. How many times will I have to say the same, Changing? You keep coming here and telling about your husband, and yourself. Please do so on your own thread. And please understand the scope of this thread. Even so, hard sciences focuss on clusters of symptoms.
I have read on some threads about the stiff walk of a MLCer. Have others noticed this?
Yes, Velika, we have. If you have been reading the threads, then you know it has been noticed by others. How else could people have mentioned it, if they have not noticed it?
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Alexythymia - what a great word, loss of the ability to read mood. Fascinating. I have heard of this condition being associated with depressed states (along with anhedonia, the inability to feel pleasure). It's also a component of some personality disorders. Perhaps not a primary personality defect (since it shows up in unrelated major disorders, and seems to be reversible in some), but so chilling when it shows up so suddenly.
FWIW my MIL has always had trouble understanding other peoples' emotions (I've thought of her as kind of 'emotionally autistic', but that's not accurate, as she's certainly able to project her own negative emotions onto the world around her!). Alexythymia makes perfect sense. She also has serious Cluster B personality traits (I'd place her well along the narcissistic PD scale), and a hoarder (in lieu of human emotional connections, she connects strongly to possessions and objects). When my H was small, he remembers being scolded by a teacher that he had no concept of empathy - likely because he never saw it at home - but by the time I met him in university, H had taught himself how to understand emotion, and was quite a sensitive creature. Come MLC, he abruptly lost his ability to empathize; at BD, H had no emotions at all except the nasty ones he projected onto me (I thought he had suddenly turned into his mother! Eeek!!!). But as H's MLC ended, his ability to read emotion (and respond appropriately to it) has largely returned.
I keep reading about the eyes getting darker. My husband has pretty dark eyes to begin with so I am not sure I could ascertain this. ... I have read anecdotal stuff about certain mental illnesses being associated with a change in eye color, but couldn't find anything definite.
An enlarged pupil ('fight-or-flight' response, angry MLCers seem to be awash in pointless adrenaline) could look like a darkened eye. There's also the bags under the eyes from not sleeping, and the weight loss. For several months my H looked like a death's head on a stick, and his eyes like burning coals at the bottom of a pit.
I don't think a discussion of these symptoms distracts from the thread focus on neurotransmitters and brain biochemistry, because the former is a physical or tangible sign of the latter, which we have to guess at (or research). We just have to distinguish what is primary from what is secondary.
(Edit: Anjae, may I have leeway to mingle symptoms with hard science? fwiw I am a doc, have diagnosed mood disorders, and study neurotransmitters in the lab... but on this board, I'm as utterly confused as anyone)
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Anjae, you have been on this board for many years but for some of us this is new and we are just trying to share our thoughts and observations as they relate to neurobiology.
If this is something that others don't wish to hear about over and over again they don't need to read this thread.
I don't mind hearing about C4E's observations of her husband's behavior here as they relate specifically to this topic. In fact, I am learning a lot!
I know your hypothesis is depression but there is still ever changing research into what depression is and how it manifests.
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"Brain research" is part of the subject.
I get no benefit from discussing my husband on my own thread. My own thread was forced on me by a moderator. I came here to discuss specific issues, and in particular this thread on brain stuff, not to discuss myself, but I am using my case and that of others as examples to elucidate what we are discussing.
It is a waste of my time to discuss myself as a topic in and of itself.
There was a great article that someone posted as its own thread recently and it really was something that should have generated good discussion around the topic of the article. But a moderator moved the article to an article thread and then I got slapped down by a moderator for actually trying to discuss the article.
Why does this forum have to only be personal threads? Why can't we discuss common topics and try to correlate them to specific examples? I'm sorry, but that is the only way to systemically analyze MLC and LEARN. Not a bunch of individual stories. I don't learn much about the mechanisms and symptoms of MLC by reading the intricacies of someone's divorce process buried along with their ranting against the OW. I understand that serves some people's needs but I think an alternative approach also helps to get a bigger picture and one that is more factually based than support based.
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C4E and Velika, I agree (posted above, same time as you both). There's a connection between the physical manifestations of a disease (under which you're posting your observations), and the biochemical basis for those observations. Just for myself, I felt less emotionally roiled up when I could try to pin what I was observing in my H to its underlying biology (so I felt less personally affronted, and more 'thinky').
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I find that what HB and RCR have written actually correlates quite closely with some aspects of alexithymia, even though they don't use clinical terms for it. For instance, one primary aspect of it is something called "externally oriented thinking" and if you read this article, it actually does a quite good job of describing it, without calling it such:
https://thestagesandlessonsofmidlife.org/mid-life-crisis-spouses-use-projection/
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OSB-I read through all your posts and I found them very useful and inspirational. There are A LOT of similarities between your husband's MLC and my husband's and so it was great to see you had a good outcome.
There has been some but not much research into the biological basis of alexithymia. I haven't read much about that yet though.
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Anjae, you have been on this board for many years but for some of us this is new and we are just trying to share our thoughts and observations as they relate to neurobiology.
Velika, you yourself said you find it on others threads. Therefore, others had noticed it.
Yes, I have been around for a while. But before I start to participate, I read the articles. Then I read the archives. A thing I think many of you do not.
You can find lots of info on the archives as well as on the many discussion threads on the board. Taking some time to read them may be a good idea.
If this is something that others don't wish to hear about over and over again they don't need to read this thread.
The thing is, this thread is for a specific thing. Not for sharing personal stories, not for childhood issues. And it is a thread started by those of us who were into neuroscience. So, it makes sense we want to read the thread. But it is in fact a little strange to keep reading, and seeing questions, that have been written in previous threads. This is thread number 3.
There are also other types of threads with info on the Archives and main boards. Reading them is a good idea.
My hypothesis is actually stress. Extreme stress/burnout. That leads to depression.
...depression but there is still ever changing research into what depression is and how it manifests.
True. And I am well aware of it. But the same applies to every other condition debated on this and other threads. Yet, every time something new comes up, it seems people think it is the thing and that it a sure thing. Depression is better known and has been quite researched, yet one keeps finding new things about it. Imagine how little is still really known on the less common and less researched things.
Everyone is trying to find a cause, but no one has the brain scans or the blood tests. So, it is all a bit in the air. Other than we know MLCers are stressed and depressed.
And, of course, so far, none of us has managed to find a way of solving the matter.
Changing, you are no different than any other HS member. We cannot all come to this threads and discuss our spouses. That is not what this threads are for. I merged your threads. Everyone here has a personal story thread.
You have been sharing a lot about your husband on other people threads. Stick to your thread. How many more times do I have to ask you the same? Several of the particular issues you have been discussing and posting about on other people's threads and discussion threads are the same issues everyone else discusses on their threads.
You are being disrespectful of my self, Old Pilot (the other person with tech duties) and the other HS members. Old Pilot and I have to keep looking for your posts and decide if we have to split and merge them into your own thread.
I doubt any moderator had told you not to discuss the article on a discussion thread. As for articles being moved, we have a thread for articles and their discussion. I am sorry if the way we do things upsets you, but that is how we do things. And we need to do so in order for HS to function.
This forum has many non personal threads. All the threads with the icons: discussion, green monster, blue mirror, pink heart, off topic are not personal stories threads. And we have lots of them on the main board. Too many, in fact. To the point where people's story threads are being lost and not noticed.
We also have an archive full of non story threads: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?board=23.0
There is also the Recourses board, with lots of info on a number of issues: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?board=34.0
Changing, you do not get to decide how the tech part of the board and its organisation is done. Only RCR can do that. So, I will ask you once more to please tell your story on you own thread. Thank you.
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I am feeling tempted to start another website/discussion group just to discuss neurology and MLC.
A person can only read so many threads and archives. Yes I have seen the eye, the stiff walk, on other threads but I can't remember which ones.
I have read all of the neurology threads I believe. Many of them devolve into discussions like this.
If anyone is interested in a free-for-all, no holds barred, speculative, example based, discussion on this topic I would love to have either on this forum or elsewhere.
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A person can only read so many threads and archives.
And yet, I have to pretty much have an idea of all types of threads we have. Which means several years of threads.
Here you go, Velika, a thread on dead/shark eyes http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3630.0 and this one was on the Community board. All it took was to select the green monster icon.
You guys need to learn how to select and use the icons. Especially the main board ones, because you keep coming up with issues that already exist on discussion threads.
I think we already have some sort of a thread for neurology and MLC. I will see if we do.
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bump.
Now I will merge posts from the other thread here, so that everyone will be able to discuss this matter. The other thread will be for what it is titled: Biochemistry, Neurotransmitters, and Brain Research.
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Anjae-Don't jump to any conclusions that we don't read the articles. In fact, I read all the articles from RCR and HB 7 months before I ever posted here, and read them over and over and over again in the meantime. I knew this forum existed but I had no interest in posting or even reading here until I knew that brain aspects were being discussed. I did not come here to discuss my own story specifically. I did not come here looking for support. Knowing that this may be a chemical imbalance or whatever is far more helpful toward me handling this situation than others cheering me on.
Comparing the personal experiences of multiple MLCers is the first step that one has to take if one wants to do brain research. Because first of all, one has to come up with a definition of the behaviors common to MLC. If we stick to one thread, one person, no discussion, no comparison, we will never reach that point If one person says I see shark eyes, and ten others jump in and say they see shark eyes, then that is something to investigate. If people are supposed to stick to their own threads to discuss shark eyes, it becomes a lot harder to compile information that could be useful in that regard. And the thread you pointed us to describes the eyes as a window to the soul, the change in the eyes as an indicator of guilt and shame. No discussion of the physiological aspect
Once you have a definition of the symptoms that seem to manifest themselves together in midlife crisis, only then can you start to speculate what parts of the brain are involved, based on what is already known about those parts of the brain. As I pointed out, HB pretty much described externally oriented thinking to a T but she called it projection. And to be perfectly honest, all her comments about getting revelations from God would turn off a lot of scientists even though I have to admit I doubt she is getting guidance from God but nevertheless she has managed to come up with a lot of sound interpretations on her own.
And after you define the symptoms in medically sound language, then you can start to design tests to see if your theory is right that something is going on in these parts of the brain.
I find it sad that Velika is feeling compelled to start a discussion forum elsewhere for this topic as here we have a huge number of people that we could draw from to have a good discussion on this topic. However, it might be worthwhile just because that way some sort of scientific rigor could be applied to the discussion, rather than the forum rules rigor. If someone posted an article about new research, then it could be discussed as a thread in its own right rather than merged into a catch-all thread of articles where we aren't allowed to discuss it.
I don't know what has happened to this discussion. It seems it has been pruned or merged or something overnight. And then I go to look at the first post in this new manifestation of the discussion, and what is it? A long personal story. Nothing makes any sense.
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Anjae-Don't jump to any conclusions that we don't read the articles. In fact, I read all the articles from RCR and HB 7 months before I ever posted here, and read them over and over and over again in the meantime.
I noticed you have read RCR and HB articles, but not everyone has. But have you read the many discussion threads in the archives and in the main board? If you have, then you know we have been discussing MLC and what may cause it for years.
I did not come here to discuss my own story specifically.
The thing is, HS has rules. You need to have a personal thread. And if you did not come here to discuss your story, why do you post it in other people's threads as well as in science discussion threads? If you are familiar with HB, you must know her board has very strict rules. HS is more flexible, but it does not mean you can do as you please. You cannot be the only person here who does not have a personal story thread and who keeps posting pieces of it on other people's threads.
Plus. we like to know who we are dealing with. We like to know our members story. And you keep trying to not telling us about you. Do you have something to hide?
Comparing the personal experiences of multiple MLCers is the first step that one has to take if one wants to do brain research. Because first of all, one has to come up with a definition of the behaviors common to MLC.
Thank you for informing me of what I, and others, have known and been doing for years. You may not realise but several of us have been around for a while. We are familiar with the many debate threads on the matter of MLC that have existed in HS since its start. We have also been doing just that for years. But, so far, we come to no definitve conclusion.
.And after you define the symptoms in medically sound language, then you can start to design tests to see if your theory is right that something is going on in these parts of the brain.
We know. However, none of us can tests any theory. We do not have brain scans or blood tests. Each of us may think one thing is going in parts of the MLCer brain, but none of us has a single scan from a MLCer brain while in MLC. Let alone of a good sample of MLCers.
I find it sad that Velika is feeling compelled to start a discussion forum elsewhere for this topic as here we have a huge number of people that we could draw from to have a good discussion on this topic.
This is the new topic. Velika wanted one on the neurobiology of MLC (check her preply #77 on this thread) . We already had one. The posts from the science thread that concerned neurology and MLC were merged into the already existing thread on the matter.
However, it might be worthwhile just because that way some sort of scientific rigor could be applied to the discussion...
You mean, the scientific rigour that was applied on the neuroscience thread, and had been for two previous threads on the matter, until you star filling it with your personal issues and stories? You have not been paying real attention to that thread, have you?
Do you know of any HS discussion thread where only one person's issue is being debated? I don't.
If someone posted an article about new research, then it could be discussed as a thread in its own right rather than merged into a catch-all thread of articles where we aren't allowed to discuss it.
No, we could not. There are tech aspects that are necessay to respect. Otherwise HS does not function. We do not have space for it. And Old Pilot and I cannot keep merging all those separated threads. That is why we have threads on several matters. And everyone is allowed to discuss on the Links/blogs/articles for us all to share thread. Like I said before, you cannot dictate HS technical conditions and what can, or cannot, be done on that issue.
Old Pilot and I have a lot of work making the board work, and making sure there is enough space for people to be able to post. Also, that the Community board is not to long in order to be easy to read and for us to do tech work.
You, and everyone else, need to respect the tech constrains and HS rules. We have plenty of debate/discussion threads. More than 3 pages of those on the Community Board and some 15 pages on the Archives.
So, now, please, give it a break. HS has been around for years and has its way of doing things in a way that allow the board to exist.
Like I said before, you are not respecting mine and Old Pilot's work and want to do things your way, just because, even if we have our rules and way of doing things in order to have HS running. So, please be so kind to keep with the board's way. Thank you.
I don't know what has happened to this discussion. It seems it has been pruned or merged or something overnight. And then I go to look at the first post in this new manifestation of the discussion, and what is it? A long personal story. Nothing makes any sense.
This is a different thread. It makes perfect sense. The more personal posts from the Neuroscience thread were put here because this thread has a more personal component. So, now, your posts from the other thread fit here.
You may had not notice but this thread is called Neurology and MLC. The other one was called Biochemistry, Neurotransmitters, and Brain Research. It was not a thread about MLC. It was a thread on wider issues pertaining to that thread title, not on MLC. MLC was not on the title of that thread.
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You know, I have a PhD and other degrees from two universities that consistently rank among the top 10 universities in the world. I have taught at several universities. I can tell you that someone's personal life is not a prerequisite to having a scientific discussion. Yes, I may use my husband as an example but I use others as well. I've talked on these neuroscience threads about symptoms others have witnessed that I have never seen in my husband, but that seem to be otherwise common in other MLCers. As far as I am concerned, my husband is what one might call a case study in scientific terms, as is every other MLCer. Case studies have their place in such discussions.
My hope is that scientists take MLC as a syndrome seriously so that it gets studied. That's my reason for posting and discussing here. Period. it's not about me or even my husband. This thing is so horrible that it is a shame that there is no research going on. So much suffering, and no science being applied. I don't want anyone else to have to go through this, or at least go through it in ignorance of what is going on or thinking their spouses are just @$$holes when maybe there is a reason that has nothing to do with personal choice.
Having a DETACHED conversation about symptoms our husbands suffer without passing any sort of moral or emotional judgment about it seems to be unwelcome. We are supposed to be here to "heal" ourselves whatever that means. It certainly is not being used in a scientific sense.
I was on the fence about Velika starting a new forum but I am leaning more and more that way. This forum is clearly about self-focus and psychological/counseling approaches. There's nothing wrong with that but moving posts around breaks up existing conversations and really that is not helpful. You are free to run the forum as you see fit but I think Velika should be free to leave and start something else.
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/neurology
Isn't that simply another way of saying "brain research"? And because the other thread title doesn't mention MLC then you say it isn't about MLC, although isn't it by virtue of being on an MLC forum the fact that it is also about MLC is implicit?
Your post moves to me seem to be about splitting hairs.
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/neurology
Isn't that simply another way of saying "brain research"? And because the other thread title doesn't mention MLC then you say it isn't about MLC, although isn't it by virtue of being on an MLC forum the fact that it is also about MLC is implicit?
Your post moves to me seem to be about splitting hairs.
I think the point is we try not to have thousands of short discussion threads that more or less ask the same questions.
As admins and moderators we try to keep the board as organised as possible.
It is chaotic in the first place, so this is a tough job.
Really we have very few rules in regards to what you can post or how.
If you find discussion threads in the archives that is on a topic you would like to discuss please ask us and we will be glad to bring it back to the main board.
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/neurology
Isn't that simply another way of saying "brain research"?
No.
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/neurology
Isn't that simply another way of saying "brain research"?
No. Neurology and brain research are not the same thing. In fact, Velika wanted Neurology in the title, but Neurology is not brain research. Neurology only applies to things and illnesses in the brain that are already know, like the dementias, or epilepsy, or ALS, or strokes.
There are difference between Neurology, Neuroscience (the research) and Neurobiology (another type of research).
And because the other thread title doesn't mention MLC then you say it isn't about MLC, although isn't it by virtue of being on an MLC forum the fact that it is also about MLC is implicit?
No. We have threads that do not factor MLC, or only in a minor way. The other thread is for all sorts of brain research, motor, strokes, thermoregulation, neurotransmitters, etc.
Your post moves to me seem to be about splitting hairs.
They are not. Like OP said, "It is chaotic in the first place, so this is a tough job". And I would like you to respect it.