Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: terrified_in_TN on August 01, 2016, 03:55:38 AM
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I don't know if this has been posted before, but I found this site IMMENSELY helpful.
I recall in it asking me one time if I thought my Ex was narcissistic, and I recall replying I didn't believe so...Later, I started second guessing myself. No, I am NOT rewriting history. The two articles that really scared me (as in smacked me in the face based upon my OWN situation) were the ones on female narcissists and narcissist jealousy.
http://thenarcissisticlife.com/list-of-all-posts/
-T
previous thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3917.0
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Watcher stay away from them. I cannot stress this enough.
After the DV incident (when I was trying to leave him. I ended up in the emergency room for x-rays) I sent him an email afterward and told him to stay away from me as he was playing games returning items that belonged to me. Even at that point (in 2013) I did not know really know what I was dealing with. I knew it was abuse. I just didn't understand until I got educated that he can never change or heal. He's all about control,lies, manipulation, and games. Making people miserable and causing pain brings him joy.
If I see him? I'll make a phone call. It makes no difference to me where he ends up jail or a psych ward. I don't give a $h!te which.
Your W more than likely threw a fit because she did not know what you might say to them. Abusers want you to protect them. Trust them again? After all of that? You are very wise not to. I know I don't.
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Wow T_in_T :o
I found a lot on the web. I haven't seen this site. More reading to do. Thanks! :)
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I posted this site on Pixie's thread before it was closed.
http://flyingmonkeysdenied.com/
You can like the page on Fakebook, and get daily posts, extremely educational.
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http://www.higherperspectives.com/deal-with-narcissist-1957088148.html?page=1
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As I was reading the different articles on here I found myself nodding. more than once.
Everything fit my 1st XH to a tee!
I will NEVER become involved with another Narc as long as I live. It's pure hell most of the time. The good times are very far and few between.
Sadly, he left a scar on all of us. That's what they do.
Healing is very hard but with therapy it can happen.
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Great articles.
I hear ya T.
The bad times really did out weight the good.
Ugh... what a waste of time. Now to take the time to heal. ::) ( I can't believe I was that stupid)
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Well, I have to give credit where credit is due...Albatross posted something in the previous thread that really upset me (no, it did NOT offend me at all...it was more along the lines of "the truth hurts" kind of upsetting).
I don't recall specifically now, but it was basically that a NPD can indeed have a very long relationship with a mirror narc (or something along those lines).
Never heard the term, so I googled it, and is how I found that site.
Yes, I am ashamed to admit it, I am a mirror narc. At first I was really upset about it, but then again if you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" (the title is misleading, its not what it sounds like) that is pretty much the type of person described in the book.
In summation, I truely believe my 20+ year relationship was unhealthy, and I married a full blown NPD. I think I am one of the examples Albatross was referring to.
I should carry this to my own thread, but will continue on here:
I've also come to the conclusion my mother is a narc. I never considered myself having FOO issues (had a rough time in school due to bullying/made fun of), but thought my childhood was okay. I've been finding out a LOT lately...not good. NOT GOOD AT ALL.
Went to go see her to she could see D7 before I take her back. Had some time to talk. I knew my mom was a strange bird (I could write books), but today was the first time she ever told me she was diagnosed bi-polar. WTF.
Also she said something that stood out: She was almost boasting about how hard she had worked all her life, and how it was all for us kids (it wasn't...she is a very "showy" person-keep up with the Jones' on steroids). She wasn't supposed to, but went back to work like 3 days after I was born. I couldn't help but wonder who was watching me during this time, but didn't ask.
-T
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I found out the same thing T.
The narc mother and the ex even said the same exact things to me. :o That's not an MLC.
T? The "not good at all" is where the work is
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I just noticed, the "Mirror Narc" article didn't show up in the list that I linked to. Odd.
For anyone curious:
http://thenarcissisticlife.com/the-inverted-mirror-narcissist/
-T
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I can see myself in some of that. Codependent due to an alcoholic self centered mother.(Nothing but drama with her) I went to ALAON and identified that at 30 years old. And studied the 12 steps and put them into practice. Helped me when I finally cut contact with her due to setting a boundary And boy was she pissed- she didn't like that.
Domestic Violence also entered due to my mother.
And I tried to do what ever I thought the ex would appreciate. I was extreme.
Hoop jumping is how I think of it now. Some of the hoops I set up myself. I wasn't ever going to be perfect-I really wasn't trying to be - I gave it my best shot. I have to admit I got a great deal of joy and satisfaction taking care of a family.
I wanted to be a better mother than my mother was.
I thought I was taking care of them and here they are looking at me like I'm a doormat.
Hopefully you can fix stupid.
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I hate self-diagnosis, especially when I am not even close to being qualified to do so...And admittedly I don't see EVERYTHING in that article in myself (but damn near most of it), and same goes for my Ex. I really don't recall us fighting...EVER. So no narc rage. But when you are an extreme conflict avoider such as myself, you do whatever it takes to "keep the peace" even if it means going against something you internally believe.
I also realize we are ALL narcs to some degree. Its not a black and white thing...its a scale. And I now have to say Ex ranks very high up on the NPD scale, and I am damn high on the mirror narc scale.
I am sorry you went though everything you did in it. Never had substance abuse at my house growing up or anything like that. But my mom was very "showy". She wanted to make sure she was seen as superior, down to her children. I guess that set me up for some unrealistic expectations of my behaviour by my mother in front of guests/friends.
Even today it was just us 3-me, D7, and her. My mom wanted D7 to set the table for dinner, and wanted me to teach D7 the "proper" way to set the table. Jebus Frackin' Christ....she is SEVEN.
Of course in normal fashion, I didn't rock the boat.
Hmmmm
-T
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I meant to add...the irony of it all...And this can be said for most folks I believe MLC or not...All this effort to put on the show of a "picture perfect" family, but you dig a little bit, and you see just how "dysfunctional" that family is. Most of my mom's side of the family was just whacked. And competition...wow, you talk about sibling rivalry...and the "dirt" that got slung around.
Probably TMI, but on one side of my mom's mouth she will bad-mouth damn near everyone not in earshot, and the other she will tell you how much everyone "loves" her.
I love my mom-I have come to accept her for who she is (at her age, she isn't going to change now), but dislike a lot of her behaviour.
-T
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Welcome to the club, T. I was 52 years old when I realized I hadn't had a normal, happy childhood but had instead grown up in a dysfunctional home.
It sure sounds like your mother is a narc. The signs are classic. And I've read that the children of narcs generally grow up to be either narcs themselves or codependent. From what you've said it sounds like you probably are codependent and Alanon could help you with that. But I seriously doubt you're a narc in any form, even a mirror narc.
A narc has no empathy. I don't think that describes you. I've been reading your posts for a long time and I don't think you lack empathy. Even your statement about your mother's expectations for your D7 indicate a possibly empathic reaction. The thing that clinches it for me, though, is saying that you're ashamed to admit that you're a mirror narc. A narc isn't going to admit being ashamed because they won't be. In order to be ashamed you have to be able to view yourself from another's perspective, which requires empathy.
And when you told init you were sorry she had to go through everything she did. More empathy on display. Sorry, but I'm not willing to let you go over to the dark side. ;)
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You two are tooo funny. (Shes frickin 7. I agree by the way)
Oh I never had the problem with the confrontational fighting part with the ex or the narc mom.Only two prople I know I screamed and yelled at with any consistancy.And they screamed and yelled right back.
And MB? If we are human we all came from a dysfunctional family.I just think its the level of dysfunction and how we attempt to turn it into something that gives ourselves some sense of being connected with others is what matters. Connect with ourselves first then others. I guess thats how I look at being self aware.
And thanks T in T. She sure kept it drama filled but as a child you think its somewhat normal.I had my dad and he kept it a bit more peaceful when I went with him on the weekends.
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I also realize we are ALL narcs to some degree. Its not a black and white thing...its a scale. And I now have to say Ex ranks very high up on the NPD scale, and I am damn high on the mirror narc scale.
Absolutely! We are all narcs to some degree. It is a scale, and it's only problematic if someone is high on the scale. It changes with age (we tend to be more narcissistic when we are young) and also mood. Essentially, narcissism is about feeling special, better than the rest, and there are moments when we have to convince ourselves of this in order to face a challenge or difficulty... including a narcissist!
I've been reading "Rethinking Narcissism" by Dr Craig Malkin, as I realised that my H is a introverted narcissist.
Here are the warning signs;
1. Emotional phobia; they shore up their self-confidence by imagining themselves as self-sufficient and impervious to other people's behaviour and feelings
2. Projection. They project the feelings that they are trying to ignore onto someone else, and even provoke you into having them.
3. Controlling. They need to be in charge, and feel uneasy asking for help.
4. Putting people on pedestals. If they place their lover on a pedestal, it's another way of saying how special they are
5. Fantasizing that they have a twin or soul mate . With a mirror twin at their side, their ideas make sense, and the other reflects who they feel they are. It's the narcissism of early love or adolescence, and also of illicit lovers.
My H (and his mum) show 1-3, although not being at the NPD end of the scale, they are not totally impervious to people's feelings. In fact they make quite a big thing of being real community carers (another type of narcissism). But when it comes to their inner selves, they reveal nothing of what they really feel. They can hurl insults at each other and both will act like they don't care. My H has teased me for years, not brutally, but constantly. It makes him feel better about himself if he feels that he is better than me.
He even did it this lunchtime. Instead of reacting, I said "I don't like you teasing me", to which he replied "It's just a bit of fun. The problem is your self confidence. If you felt better about yourself, it wouldn't matter". Actually, I told him, I feel fine about myself. I just don't like your teasing. I could have told him (but I didn't) that if he felt better about himself, he wouldn't need to tease me. I can't actually remember how he teased me. It actually doesn't matter. It's the usual stuff... about my weight, my big feet or fat fingers, or eyes like "Mr Maggoo". Rubbish.
I'm actually not a mirror. I can be, up to a point. I like to keep the peace, like everyone to be happy. But I'm a volcano (and I was with my dad). If you push my buttons, I eventually explode. My H loved to push my buttons, especially when he was upset. He could make me react and I'd take the blame for his feelings.
Leading up to his MLC, I was less tolerant. In fact, he'd encouraged me so much with my studies (placing me on a pedestal and telling me I was far more intelligent than average) that I'd come to know quite a lot. Working towards me PhD, I had no tolerance for his behaviour. After he hit MLC, I had even less.
My lightbulb moment this week was when I realised that "rage makes narcissists of us all" (p.115). And when we become narcissistic in response to our narcissist, it increases their narcissism..
Aha! I didn't make him a narcissist. But I can make him more narcissistic by my behaviour. According to Dr Malkin, we can also do the opposite; we can build bonds of trust and empathy.
We have to be careful here. There are narcissists who are too far gone to be affected by this. He suggests three stop signs, when we should leave our relationship.
1. Emotional or physical abuse
2. Psychopathy (cold remorseless lies and manipulation)
3. Denial (refusal to admit to problems and seek help).
I would add another: Lack of empathy.
Unhealthy narcissism is when they conceal vulnerability, insecurity, sadness, fear, loneliness and shame. The way we can see if there is hope is to see if they can come out of hiding, with empathy prompts, and by sharing with them our own hurts and vulnerabilities, without rage, armor, and reach for deeper intimacy. But we have to be safe enough to do this (so not with those with characteristics mentioned in red).
I've seen the cracks in H's armor several times. Recently, I've seen that he is willing to change if given the right prompts in the right way.
Is it enough? I will see. I have to be stronger than ever now. Strong enough to go, if necessary. Strong enough to overcome my temper, and strong enough to look at myself.
I don't think I was ever the perfect mirror (or, as Malkin calls it, high on echoism). I admired H, put him on a pedestal. H loved my nurturing side, the fact that I looked up to him, and that I needed him, and that I took care of him and our children. Yes, I have to admit that I swallowed too much, and did too much for him. (There were reasons, in my mind, as he was always working too hard... better than engaging with emotions!) But I am also independent, gregarious, fun-loving... and volatile. He cannot handle this, and tried to repress my extrovert side.
The perfect storm leading to his breakdown were my increasing independence as a thinker, my volatility, my stress, his extreme stress (burnout) and overwork, his narcissistic tendencies... and finally facing what he couldn't face: recovering the body of his assassinated of his father. It led to his internal collapse; his narcissism sky-rocketed.
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Wow that was some post Mermaid..
Of course I agree we are all narcs. Self esteem and self worth is a level of that. Things get out of balance and I think that's where the misery plays in. I am about the same personality type as you. I love to laugh, I'm pretty extroverted, and when I get pissed it isn't pretty.
It's disturbing to me that people want to piss people off so they can feel their own emotions. I never would have guessed that's what's going on within a relationship. I don't like being teased either without some balance of sincerity of feelings. After a while it just gets old.
Someone hasn't got to be mushy. But I need to hear or they need to show that I mean something to them besides something to get some kind of reaction out of.
And I've had all four of those warning signs (well actually it manifested) in regards to the ex. So I'm d-o-n-e.
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InIt,
Reading all this made me think. Every family has some dysfunction, Some are just a lot worse than others.
My childhood was very normal and happy. My siblings and I were just talking about how blessed we were growing up. Our parents loved each other and all 5 of us kids.
But the dysfunction(and I hate to call it that) was with my dad. He was wonderful and loving but he was also pretty immature in ways. He was waited on hand and foot by my mother. She did EVERYTHING, even all the yard work and home repairs. All he did was work and come home to be waited on. I never saw him mow the lawn or shovel snow or even put the storm windows on. I grew up thinking that what you do when you're married. I allowed both of my H's to do nothing, ::)
Anyway I told you my 1st H was a narc but I didn't realize it for years. I knew there was something wrong with him but I thought maybe is was some social disease of some kind. He had no empathy for anyone. He lied right to people's faces and it didn't bother him one bit that I knew. He stole a lot from his work (enough Redwood to built a fence) like it was his for the taking. Then got mad at THEM when he got caught.
After I had our first baby he didn't come up to see me for 3 days, and then didn't want to see the baby. My parents were floored.
Well a lot more, but my point is it wasn't until I read "The Narcissist" (can't remember the author) that I finally knew what he was. The whole book could have been written about him.
Terrified, I do not see you as a mirror-narc. Not at all. I hear your empathy for people.
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Well T you watched your mother so you thought that was what you were supposed to do. Once you enable them all bets are off.I did the same thing with the ex..watched what his mother did. ::)
Like I said ( for me hopefully) there is some cure for stupid.
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Oh InIt, not stupid...just naïve.
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Yeah..I know I looked the definition up of that a few times. I don't look at it as a good thing to be.
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SOME WISE QUOTES ABOUT SHADOW - FOR PEOPLE WHO DISCOVER SOMETHING WHICH THEY DO NOT LIKE IN SELF, BUT THAT IS PATH FOR HEALING, BEING AWARE OF OWN SHADOW IS QUITE ACCOMPLISHMENT
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."
"The Shadow cannot be eliminated. It is the ever-present dark brother or sister. Whenever we fail to see where it stands, there is likely to be trouble afoot. For then it is certain to be standing behind us. The adequate question therefore never is: Have I a shadow problem? Have I a negative side? But rather: Where does it happen to be right now? When we cannot see it, it is time to beware! And it is helpful to remember Jung's formulation that a complex is not pathological per se. It becomes pathological only when we assume that we do not have it; because then IT HAS US!"
- Edward C. Whitmont -
Depth psychology has presented us with the undeniable wisdom that the enemy is constructed from denied aspects of the self. Therefore, the radical commandment "Love your enemy as yourself" points the way toward both self-knowledge and peace. We do, in fact, love or hate our enemies to the same degree that we love or hate ourselves. In the image of the enemy, we will find the mirror in which we may see our own face most clearly.
- Sam Keen -
Shadow work leads to a practice I refer to as the pursuit of the unhypocritical life, which some might call living with integrity.
- Jeremiah Abrahms -
To practice lightside/dark side thinking is to practice holding opposites, a subversive act in our either/or culture. For Jung, this act is a developmental step, the end of a naive all-good view or a cynical all-bad view, which results in a more nuanced perception of reality and a capacity to tolerate paradox and ambiguity. This, too, is one of the promises of shadow-work.
- Connie Zwieg, Ph.D. and Steve Wolf, Ph.D. -
The Shadow, of course never dies; we always cast a shadow. But how we relate to it, and it to us, depends on whether it is known. Once known, we have inevitably lost an innocence that can never be recovered. What replaces it is a knowledge of the complexity of our nature. Sometimes we are fortunate, and this knowledge elicits a kindness and tolerance in us for others — even, perhaps for ourselves.
- Deena Metzger -
The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek.
- Joseph Campbell -
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How Early Childhood Oedipal Narcissistic Development Affects Later Adult Intimacy and Relationships (http://energeticsinstitute.com.au/early-childhood-oedipal-narcissistic-adult-relationships/)
by Richard Boyd, Body Mind Psychotherapist, Energetics Institute, Perth, Western Australia Copyright 2011
Strongly recommended reading. There You can find a lot easy understanding reading about not good relationships with people as consequence of bad parenting...
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Wow, fantastic article! Thank you for sharing this.
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I am surprised that there is no any feedback about our MLCers and this article.
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To be honest, I can definitely make some suppositions from this article based on the limited information I have about my xH's early childhood development, but it's always going be speculative because I wasn't there and don't really know. I know we had what I felt was a healthy relationship for 20 years, so I really can't say that early childhood development stunted him in that way. I just know he had a breakdown at midlife, and it was likely related to things that happened then. Not denying that there isn't a setup somewhere earlier, and God knows there were FOO issues, but I think there's a reason these crises happen at midlife that is related to biochemical factors. But thank you for sharing it, as it is definitely another for the 'bookmarks' folder that I will keep on hand.