Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses

Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Forever Strong on March 11, 2011, 01:14:35 PM

Title: What makes us different?
Post by: Forever Strong on March 11, 2011, 01:14:35 PM

STANDERS

I was reading a post by CovenantKeeper and someone replied:

I get the feeling your husband is trying to drag you down because you are STILL STANDING and his life is CRAP!! He can't figure out why you haven't killed him by now.... you didn't play by the RULES! You were supposed to be enraged and DIVORCE HIM from the get go... but you didn't.  You were supposed to give up on him... but you didn't. He was SOOOO awful to you and doesn't deserve your mercy, but you gave it. You loved him more than he loves himself.

I've had no support in STANDING.  I've really not told anyone that's what I'm doing because I know no one would agree with me.  For me to give up on this man is just not possible.  Not when I know what God can do for him.  I am truly dumbfounded by this thing we call MLC and all the similar stories we share.  So what makes us different that we choose to STAND instead of getting enraged and walking away?  Is it knowledge of this sickness (that's what I call it) or true love for another human being, Faith in God? 

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: ygirlland on March 11, 2011, 01:35:27 PM

I often wonder this myself.  I vacillate between believing that I would want someone to do the same for me in the same situation.  I also believe that standing means that I never gave up on a man that doubts himself so much that he gave up on himself.  The other side of the coin is me wondering if I am just a glutton for punishment or don't believe enough in myself to let go.  I wonder if there is psychological issues with myself that have yet to be addressed that lead me to hold on to this relationship.  I struggle with this dilemma often.  I do know that I am working on myself and I have set boundaries.  As of yet it hasn't decreased my desire to stand for what I believe to be right.  I also know that my kids deserve a healthy mom, dad and intact family.  I am working on creating the things that I can control.  Will I always stand?  Probably not.  If it appears that he is filing for divorce and remarrying then I must move on for myself.  I will stand until I no longer feel the passion for H and the family that we created for our kids.  I have decided that at a certain time(who knows when it will happen) when I can no longer work harder than he does to keep our marriage I will no longer stand.  I am okay right now working on myself and supporting our family the best way I know how but I do know that boundaries are necessary for me to detach so that I can be healthy for myself and my kids.  Will he move through this process and come back to a life with me?  I do not know, but I do have faith in his ability to do the right things in his life.  It will just be up to him when and where he will make those decisions.  I may be here I may not but only my process in discovering myself will lead me to my decision.  y

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: LifeGoesOn on March 11, 2011, 01:50:16 PM

I don't know if we are different from those who do not stand.

I receive all the advice/pressure to walk away. Prior to this, that probably would have been my advice to a friend. I would see any other way for them to get away from the pain and hurt.

Just last night I had to explain this to friends who want to fix me up.

I made a commitment. I am married.

AND...I am happy and content with the way I am living my life. It is not what I dreamed it would be, but it is good. I would not be doing anything any different right now were I divorced. I do not need a man in my life. I do not need to date. I do not need any kind of external validation. It took me awhile to get to this point!

Summing up, I take my vows seriously and i might as well stand while I focus on myself and my kids day-to-day pursuit of happiness.

Oh, and my H and I love each other.

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: Still on March 11, 2011, 02:02:48 PM

Forever Strong,

I honestly don't know what makes some people choose to be standers and others not. If someone had given me my life scenario with MLC long before I had experienced it, I don't know if I would have expressed the conviction that I have been living.

Something inside of me (maybe the Holy Spirit) tells me that this is what I need to do. This is what is right and that my vows were made before God and I intend to keep them. I can't control what my H does and ultimately (if nothing changes) he will have his divorce. I need to be able to look at my kids and myself and be able to say that I did all that I was able to do to keep my marriage together.

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: readytofixmyselffirst on March 11, 2011, 04:05:00 PM

I don't know what to do either except to stand for my marriage as it is the best thing for my family. The sad thing is I could ask her to leave and I could keep everything. The house, the kids, all real property, and the debt. But, I would be free from all the madness.

However, I still love the crazy woman despite all that has happened. I still carry her in my heart. I still feel that she and I were meant to be together as one and that our family will be better and stronger if she and I keep our vows.
 
I don't know how much longer I will stand. It has been a year since the madness started. However, each day, I work on me and making my life better for myself and my children.

I think that the great many of us stand because we feel compelled to make that extra effort. We don't just throw in the towel at first trouble. My mother has stood by me on my stand while everyone else thinks I am as crazy as a junebug.

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: exiled on March 11, 2011, 04:27:39 PM

It seems that we all have had very special relationships with our spouses until MLC took them away from us abruptly.
Because we know and appreciate how extraordinary our marriages were it is that much harder to let them go.
As for me, I can't imagine that I will ever be able to reach the same level of intimacy which I have shared with my wife with someone else.
I think we are staying because of our profound love for our spouses.
Some doubts keep pestering me though: Am I sticking around because I am attached to what I once had?
Has my wife moved on forever?  Am I simply being obstinate by refusing to face the reality?
Some may argue that I will have to let the hopeless relationship die so that I can start a new relationship.
I am not staying because of the principles.  I just can't bring myself to initiate the divorce and my wife is dragging her feet.

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: stayed on March 11, 2011, 04:41:07 PM

Interesting question ygirland. 

My h didn't seem to really know what he was doing.  He was very confused, flip flopping all over the place.  Begging me to give him more time.  I knew it was going to be years for me to get over this.  Being in that state, dating was out of the question.  I would never have involved somebody else in the mess that I was at that time.  Just would not have been fair.  Realizing the state we were in, I didn't think that either of us were in any condition to be making any decisions as important as divorcing, at that time.

Quite honestly, I felt he was "sick"!  A nervous breakdown or something.  It just seemed wrong to walk away.  If he had cancer, I would have cared for him to the dreary end, without a doubt, so in a sense, I felt the same about this. 

Mind you, after 6 mos. of reconciliation, I was ready to leave.  I wouldn't have divorced him, but I definitely could have walked away.   I was not prepared to live the rest of my life simply going through the motions.  I simply could not go back to the marriage we had prior to his full crisis and affair. 

I am really glad that I stuck to my guns and insisted that if he wanted me to stay, he had to acknowledge what had happened to him.  I had to know that he understood what he had been through and subsequently myself and his children as well.  That his crisis had caused terrible pain to not only himself.  I had to be sure that he was recovered completely and the only way to prove that to me was to be open and honest about everything.
 
Due to his shame and disgust for his actions, he wanted to block it all.  Forget it had ever happened.  I felt that would be a very bad plan and that he needed to analyze and understand what he did and at least have some idea of how it had happened.  That blocking things he didn't want to remember was a contributing factor to his MLC.

I encouraged him to realize he can not harbour and contain his emotions anymore.  He needed to relax more, take up activities and hobbies, that his profession did not define who he was.  That his children and myself needed more genuine interest, support and encouragement from him.  That he was not the ONLY one who was important.  I needed to be sure that he understood this, that from now on we had to be as important to him as his job and himself.

You see, it wasn't his abhorrent behavior that I wanted him to OWN, I wanted to be sure that he understood what he had done, how he had behaved and the fallout his crisis had caused.  I wanted to be sure that he understood he had been in crisis and what had contributed to the crisis.

I'm not sure they ever really know what caused them to go into MLC but I was pretty darn sure, that due to his natural reticence to discuss "issues", enabled the crisis to bloom and grow out of proportion. It just isn't healthy to live in ones own head, too much.

Judging by the fact that he comfortably discusses MLC, not only with me, but other LBS's that we have met, I think he gets it.  I often read out comments from the forum and his sadness for everybody in this situation is genuine.   

We will have been reconciled 5 years this summer.  I believe he is recovered.  I still become concerned if I see any behavior that is even remotely familiar to those years of MLC.  I never hold it in, I speak up immediately and he is very quick to reassure me.  He realizes and accepts that I am and will remain vigilante for any signs.

Hugs Stayed...

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: LoveMeMyself on March 11, 2011, 05:07:51 PM

I suppose this is a question I've asked myself a lot lately.  I'm not sure I know my reason.  My xH and I had a truly good marriage...........I'm not just saying that........honest.   We didn't have any true issues and life was good........at least I thought it was.  I love him and can't see myself with another man.........not now or ever!  When this first happened (BD) I knew something was horribly wrong......this wasn't the man I married......something just wasn't right.  I don't talk about my decision to "stand" with anyone.  I know that nobody (other than you guys) would understand it.  My parents have really disappointed me in their attitude towards my situation.  I've had a little support from an older sister and a few close friends but for the most part I'm alone in regards to this situation.  I've talked to my children (adults, mine, not his) and of course, at first they were both furious about everything.  My exH had said some pretty horrible and hurtful things about them as well.  He was blaming them right along with me.  I wonder why I should want a man who treated me so hurtful........but I too, see him as having an "illness".....he is sick and I wouldn't leave him if he had any type of true illness......like cancer.  I know in my heart he is a good man and I keep hoping and praying things will change.  I've been told it takes 5 to 7 years to recover from divorce and only about 2 years to recover from the death of a spouse.  I'm beginning to believe that.......it's almost been a year and a half since he walked out of our marriage and it still gets to me every time I think about it.  I'm trying to get on with my life "as if" but it just seems to be so hard.  I'm truly trying........I just want the pain to stop!  I find myself thinking about him and wondering what he is doing............is he really happy?  Is this really the life he wants to live?  I found out today that he is actively looking for a house to purchase since he's having to pay too much in taxes.  I'll never forget what he said when he left me.....he said he's going to buy his own house so that he'll never have to leave and sleep on the floor ever again.  He did this after his first divorce..........sleep on the floor (air mattress) in an empty apartment until he could buy furniture.  I fear that he will never want to return because he's stated too much damage was done and he can't undo it.  Sorry, I'm rambling now.  Forgive me.  I stand and don't even really know why............I just know that I love him.

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: Dontgiveup on March 11, 2011, 05:33:27 PM

I Stand because in my belief system it's the right thing to do.  I Stand because I believe MLC is a process that will eventually end.....that does not guarantee the marriage will return, but I want to see if that opportunity may present itself.  I am thankful because I do have several people in my life encouraging me to Stand.

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: HeartsBlessing on March 11, 2011, 06:32:35 PM

Quote

I've had no support in STANDING.  I've really not told anyone that's what I'm doing because I know no one would agree with me.  For me to give up on this man is just not possible.  Not when I know what God can do for him.  I am truly dumbfounded by this thing we call MLC and all the similar stories we share.  So what makes us different that we choose to STAND instead of getting enraged and walking away?  Is it knowledge of this sickness (that's what I call it) or true love for another human being, Faith in God?

I had no real support in standing; except for the Lord; a guide that was sent to me for awhile, and our son.

I chose to stand, because I still loved him; and as time went on, I gained the knowledge I needed to keep standing.  I also stood, because I knew something better would come out of this; and it did...but the path to get to that end was quite a crooked one; as it didn't lead straight to the end; there were many detours I had to take; and several crossroads that I had to face.

I took my journey to wholeness and healing; growing and changing in that process fixing the problems within myself; in turn, that affected my husband, who was also forced to change; because I changed first.

Whether the marriage makes it or not; the choice to stand, belongs to the LBS; but journey to wholeness and healing must be taken by all.

The marriages were NOT as they should have been; therefore the crisis happened.  IF the marriage was as it should have been; the transition that happens instead, would only have been a "blip" on the radar screen of the person going through; and there wouldn't have been all this trouble that keeps happening to one marriage right after another.

Each person has emotional problems; stemming from childhood, in that process, carrying baggage into their marriage that needs to be faced and resolved by change and growth.

And until these problems are faced by each individual person; the crisis continues; or leaves off, and picks up later on.

Regardless of whether the marriage comes through or not; the JOURNEY of the LBS is what is important; secondary only to the decision to stand or not.

If the emotional problems within yourself are not fixed; you will go through this again with someone else, or even within the same marriage; because, it is something within that "chooses" the marriage partner; and because of our childhood; we tend to find what is familiar to us; continuing destructive emotional patterns from childhood.

Life's Lessons, if learned before the midlife years, have a huge affect on whether a person goes through a MLC or just a transition.

These same lessons, are learned by BOTH people during the MLC....and the person that successfully navigates the tunnel of crisis, will come out changed for a lifetime; as once it's finished; they truly know, for the first time in their lives, how to really love, give; and be there for their spouse....they come out better people than they were going in.

Regardless, however; the choice to stand or not stand, belongs to you; and no one else.

The only guarantee you have is the work that you do on yourself; the growing and changing that result from that work; and the rest, is in the Hands of God to deal with.

I made a commitment to my marriage nearly 26 years ago; and although my husband destroyed his vows during his crisis; I held onto mine; because that's the person I am; I never quit, although I wanted to many times.

Stubbornly, I held on; doing the work; and going with my life; as he struggled through...in time, I left him behind and he ran to catch up with me.

I passed through many phases of learning that I would not have learned if I'd run away from my commitment; that SAME commitment held me; when for a time, I didn't love him.

It is true that once they destroy their vows; you don't have an obligation to them; but in the longer run; if possible, it is better to keep what you have; because you CAN do much worse than what you had.

I saw a huge truth in the above statement as I watched him come through, and change for the better.  :)  I'm actually very glad for what I went through; it taught me well; and made me much stronger than I was before...as well, as it changed him; remaking him into the husband that God meant for him to be for me.

I'm going to tell you something else; there is something to be said for standing for the marriage; because you believe in it, you believe your spouse will eventually come through; and you believe in yourself.....in that long process, gaining the strength to stand through the trial, however it comes out.

It could go either way; but if you choose, you make a commitment to continue to stand to see the end; and how this goes.  If you cannot answer all of the 'What if' questions that are associated with ending a relationship/marriage; don't end it; you'll live with regrets for the rest of your life.

Hope this helps.  :)

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: LoveMeMyself on March 12, 2011, 07:06:34 PM

HB,

    You just spoke directly to my heart.  I so appreciate everything you share with me.....and everybody here.  I truly believe in my vows and I honestly  believe in myself and my commitment to my marriage even though my husband decided to divorce me.  I have been struggling for the past few days as to whether I should give up my stand but something keeps telling  me not to.......I plan to see this through to the end.  I believe with every fiber in my body that this is the right thing for  me to do.  I have faith and trust in God and believe he is working on my exH.  I don't know why I feel this but I just do.  You give me more hope and strength in my standing by my decision to Stand!  They say you don't know what you have until it's gone......I feel that and I only hope my exH will eventually feel the same loss. 

   Thank you again HB.............you are an amazing woman and I'm grateful for finding you here.  Take care!

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: HeartsBlessing on March 12, 2011, 08:22:25 PM

LMM,

Quote

    You just spoke directly to my heart.  I so appreciate everything you share with me.....and everybody here.  I truly believe in my vows and I honestly  believe in myself and my commitment to my marriage even though my husband decided to divorce me.  I have been struggling for the past few days as to whether I should give up my stand but something keeps telling  me not to.......I plan to see this through to the end.  I believe with every fiber in my body that this is the right thing for  me to do.  I have faith and trust in God and believe he is working on my exH.  I don't know why I feel this but I just do.  You give me more hope and strength in my standing by my decision to Stand!  They say you don't know what you have until it's gone......I feel that and I only hope my exH will eventually feel the same loss.

   Thank you again HB.............you are an amazing woman and I'm grateful for finding you here.  Take care!

All that I write comes from my heart, my experience; and my walk with the Lord.  :)

And, hey, I'm NOT an amazing woman; the people here who are in the process of enduring this trial, including you, LMM, are truly the amazing ones. :)

Me, I'm just coming alongside to encourage, because I've been there. :)

Thanks.  :) 

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: readytofixmyselffirst on March 12, 2011, 09:35:47 PM

Dear HB,

I think you are an amazing woman as you could be doing other things besides putting up with us. From my point of view, it has been your courage and faith that has brought me closer to GOD. To seek his guidance and to realize that the forces I face are much more powerful than anything I have ever faced. That these forces could not be controlled by me and that I had to turn everything over to GOD.

Your words comfort and confront us-not to our detriment but to help keep us focused on our journey. That there are no guarantees but that by focusing on us, we will move forward and we will come out as better people. To face our own demons.

That is what makes us different. Not that we stand for our marriage. We stand and that we focus on changing who we are. I read thread after thread. n, so many that have grown as the time has passed. Each one making their journey. Loving our children, refocusing priorities, turning to GOD, and most of all, facing the demons that haunt all of us.

I have dealt with a lot of things over the past year- but I think the most important thing is that my actions and thoughts are no longer driven by fear. I am not afraid. If she leaves, she leaves. I'll be fine. If she comes back, it will be great but we still have lots of work to do. But the fear that held me frozen is gone.

However, I don't think I would have made it to this point if were not for HB's story and guidance. So, you may not think you are amazing, but in my book, you are. ((((Hugs)))

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: HeartsBlessing on March 12, 2011, 10:06:07 PM

Hi Ready,

Quote

I think you are an amazing woman as you could be doing other things besides putting up with us.

I really don't see it that way; it's not about "putting up" with anything; I know if I keep talking, I'm either going to irritate somebody; or help them to grow; THEIR choice. :)

So, I keep talking; repeating certain things; trying to help; and giving love in the best way I know how.

I'm glad I've helped you, Ready; but you couldn't be helped; until you wanted to be helped...and that is true of anyone.  :)

Quote

Your words comfort and confront us-not to our detriment but to help keep us focused on our journey. That there are no guarantees but that by focusing on us, we will move forward and we will come out as better people. To face our own demons.

This is what the journey is all about; is facing the demons of our past; resolving the issues within; and moving forward; in the end, transformed into what God means for you to be.

My love at times, I know, is tough; but I walked this road, too, and I know that if I sugarcoat my words; I would bear responsibility for people getting stuck; and not moving forward.

There were times when someone was there for me; and sometimes the advice to me, was harsh; yet, full of truth; and it was up to me to see that truth for what it was; another area in my life that needed work....and all that I've learned has been paid forward many times over.

Quote

That is what makes us different. Not that we stand for our marriage. We stand and that we focus on changing who we are. I read thread after thread. n, so many that have grown as the time has passed. Each one making their journey. Loving our children, refocusing priorities, turning to GOD, and most of all, facing the demons that haunt all of us.

This is very true. A great deal of wisdom is contained within this paragraph.  :)

You've grown a great deal yourself, Ready; having come a LONG way since you came on board.  :)

Quote

I have dealt with a lot of things over the past year- but I think the most important thing is that my actions and thoughts are no longer driven by fear. I am not afraid. If she leaves, she leaves. I'll be fine. If she comes back, it will be great but we still have lots of work to do. But the fear that held me frozen is gone.

Fear is one of the biggest issues of the LBS during the crisis; and it serves no purpose except to keep you frozen in place; unable to walk your journey.  Lose the fear; it has no place in your life.

Whatever happens, will happen; nothing you can do to stop it; as I said, no guarantees except the work you do on yourself.

I had to face this same fear, myself; and overcome it.  This was hard; because until I reached the place of truly letting go; I was always trying to hold on; and this could not be...I could not control anyone but myself; and all I could change, was me...so, I let go of the situation, the desire to control; and put the focus squarely on me.

Quote

However, I don't think I would have made it to this point if were not for HB's story and guidance. So, you may not think you are amazing, but in my book, you are. ((((Hugs)))

Thank you for the encouraging words, Ready; I often wonder if anything I do or say, makes an impact/difference in people's lives; but I keep trying because I do care; and I want to see people make it through this trial; just as I did.

Success is not defined by what you do, it is defined by who you are; and what you become as you face and successfully navigate each trial you will face in your life; learning the lessons set before you; and gaining the strength needed to move forward.

Much love,
HB

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: Voyager on March 12, 2011, 11:26:15 PM

Forever

I think we all stand for different reasons, some are faith based, some because they can't answer the "what if" questions yet and some because it is a period of time to draw breath and grow. Plus a hundred other ones, some a mixture of reasons.

I remember when i first went onto the net looking for answers which we all did. :) :) :)

Millions of sites, some very helpful, some like "how to get your man back before he's even noticed" were hopeless. Or my favourite, "there is only one sentence that is guaranteed to get your h back" I never did find out what it was, mainly because by the time I'd subscribed, paid for the book etc, i would have been out of pocket by about £50, i have often wondered what that sentence was.......

I did download a couple of e books though. ::) ::) ::)

But there was something about this place that felt immediately right. The idea of standing made sense. i remember after i had read all the articles, it felt like i just knew this was the right thing to do. It gave me a sense of peace as i had found meaning and purpose out of chaos.

Its taken me a long time to really cotton on though as to just what it is i signed up for. :) :)

Quote

Some doubts keep pestering me though: Am I sticking around because I am attached to what I once had?
Has my wife moved on forever?  Am I simply being obstinate by refusing to face the reality?

When i first signed up i did what most do, think that standing was a way of getting my h back. If i stood for a few months, because it takes time right? so a few months, yep i could do that. Plus use all the advice on the site i would have him safely home and tucked up in bed in no time. :o :o :o

Didin't quite work out that way and i think that's the first wobbly bit for newbies. Then realising it wasn't about getting your spouse home. That would be a very welcome bonus. Not the main event.

For me it was when i started to really look at and question myself that i started to understand a bit more about Standing. That it was going to help me understand myself better. It was going to test me and i needed that.
Then i got tied up in knots for a while about who i was, what was the point, and feeling that i had to do everything a certain way in order to acheive that.

Now i take the view that Standing is not some sort of endurance competition, that every timeline is different and everyone will take what they need and then either move on, or reconcile. It doesn't matter in a way which it is, as long as whilst here they have been helped to grow in themselves, even whilst kicking and screaming against the process.

No-one wants to challenge and confront themselves, not in such a deep way that standing can do. Who wants to confront fear and let go of their old lives and learn to live a new one, without having had the opportunity to volunteer???

It's very different to waiting. It's an active process of self renewal, though it can feel like waiting, especially in limbo.
Sometimes learning to wait is an active process in itself.

We don't have to do this. Its not compulsory, it can be ended anytime. Its funny that often posters will complain bitterly about standing, find it bizarre that people do such a crazy thing and then end up standing and being crucial members of the forum.

And it's good that people question this, especially people new to the site, because it's easy to lose sight of why you're here when you've been posting for a long time. It sort of becomes automatic and that can be a problem. Sometimes we have to review our own reasons for standing. Check in with it, see if it still feels right.

If it doesn't that's fine. There should be no peer group pressure, just support and constructive questioning.

 Sometimes i go through periods when i question this everyday, and i was struck by one post recently that said something like, She/he wondered if finding out about MLC and then coming on here had been holding her/him back??

That's a really good question.

But somehow i keep coming back to standing because I know i have much more to understand about myself and i have to come to terms with the fact that my h may very well not be a returner, and this place i know will help me to get the insight and strength to be able to face that and go throug it and come out the other side, intact and at peace.

What started off as a voyage to rescue my m became a voyage of self discovery. I seem to have left my h bobbing up and down in the water, while i sail off to my own island of peace.

The really special and precious thing is that i share the journey with others looking for that too, that is our common bond and enables us to accept the questioning and the tears and the struggle of everyone else here.
 Some of us have a deep faith in God, but i think what also helps me is the faith we have in each other to help us through.

That's what makes standing and this place remarkable.

Oh crikey i've seriously rambled....what was the question again?? :) :) :) :) :)
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: stayed on March 13, 2011, 12:32:24 AM

Quote

What started off as a voyage to rescue my m became a voyage of self discovery. I seem to have left my h bobbing up and down in the water, while i sail off to my own island of peace.

Isn't it amazing?  I often feel when I am encouraging LBS's to keep going, to embrace the process, that they are thinking, "sure, easy for you Stayed, you got your marriage back".  Which is true, but the point is, I eventually reached the conclusion you did Voyager... What started off as a voyage to rescue my m became a voyage of self discovery. 

A voyage that will benefit ME the rest of my life. 

Well said girl, no one bit of RAMBLING... just good, good stuff for people to ponder.  Thanks.

hugs Stayed...

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: justasking on March 13, 2011, 05:35:22 AM

V

Oh crikey I've seriously rambled....what was the question again??

The question was answered beautifully and succinctly. I even took my viking helmet off in respect for your words of wisdom, comfort and hope.

Thank you.

xx

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: Bewildered on March 13, 2011, 06:18:38 AM

V

I have to agree with JA answered the Q very well and a wonderful explanation to newbies too which I know from my experience is when this Q is the hardest to deal with because the pain is raw the timescale forever and the outcomes murky.
to quote you,

Quote

Now i take the view that Standing is not some sort of endurance competition, that every timeline is different and everyone will take what they need and then either move on, or reconcile. It doesn't matter in a way which it is, as long as whilst here they have been helped to grow in themselves, even whilst kicking and screaming against the process.

Maybe an endurance at first because have so little understanding from others outside of this site.. my Mother and Sister told me 8 weeks approx after BD to get over him and on with my life and that their were many other men in the world better than him .. no amount of me trying to talk to them made the slightest difference he was an idiot, I was ridiculous etc so this site is my place for contemplation and the friends I have made are life long ones I just know either in real life or in cyber space .... my demons have been looked into and I am now able to understand me so much better - and why my M and S behave as they do (well up to a point)
I have always had intuition but it does fail me sometimes because I wont let it in my head .. I must in the future (trying now to do) listen to my heart and head and give it space and then make a decision before I lacked patience, wanted everything done immediately, fixed now ....  but that was the old me now I by taking time can still see the 'big picture'  but its a more stable one.

I have eradicated myself of toxic people who depress me with their negativity - i have tried to help them be their listen etc but I know now some people can't ever be helped and will stop you from being you if you let them in to your head ... so I don't - some I have distanced myself from others I am friendly with but don't really do more than chat through nothing with them .. you need to stand for yourself to find yourself and be the person you can be that is the best you can be ..............

x   

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: LearningIamOk on March 13, 2011, 11:06:45 AM

Being one of the Newbies here, I too am perplexed as to why I am doing this.  As it was expressed in the posts preceding this one, my intent is to save the M.  As the seasoned veterans here point out, this is not what the game is all about.  It makes me angry and sad that this is not a fix-it shop for the damage done.  And I have been PM'ing Stayed quite a bit and she "spanked" me with her most recent reply. No Offense taken to the reply.  I don't need anyone to poor baby me. I need brutally honest since this is a brutal time in  my life.
I remember reading a story about a woman who had a baby. The arrival was looked forward to with great anticipation. Unfortunately, the child had a form of mental retardation.  The mother likened the ordeal to planning a vacation in Italy, and when the plane landed, found she was in Holland.  At first she was angry and felt cheated. Then she looked around and saw that Holland had windmills and tulips. That there were good things where she ended up. 
I don't feel in the place to admire the windmills and tulips yet. I hope to be and am trying to be.  I know I focus too much on my H and what he is or is not doing.  I want  to hang in here. I want to stop wanting.  I want to be a grown up and not a whiny 5 yr old.  I am looking inside myself, maybe not deeply enough yet.  I would like to be able to reach a level where I do what I do with confidence instead of hoping to exact a particular outcome.
I don't really know what I am striving towards. 
I can relate to Voyagers experience of looking relentlessly on the internet for any kind of help.  All the save my marriage sites. I bought the ebooks.  I bought the study at home package.  I spent nearly $500 for 1hr phone counseling sessions because I thought the guy was my Obi-Wan Kenobi and my only hope.  The stuff bandaged things for a while, but apparently the wound got infected. 
Like others have said, I wouldn't abandon my H if it was cancer.  So I will continue to stand because I think it's the right thing to do.

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: Voyager on March 13, 2011, 11:07:26 AM

B

I think everything in your post is a perfect example of why standing can be so helpful, even if its only a stop on the journey. So much learning and growing can take place, but the LBS has to allow that to happen, it doesn't happen on its own.
I worry about the ones who get stuck, i think we all get stuck for some of the time, but some just stay that way.

It is a fearful feeling to look at yourself. To own that not everything was perfect before MLC and then to take responsibility for our part in that.
But then to be able to look at that and recognise that it wasn't just "us" but a combination of things. When i started down the road of seeing mistakes i had made, i felt i was freefalling for a while. It was so clear and obvious, and then the deep regret follows. Why didn't i see it, why didn't i stop those behaviours.

It is a difficult road to go down, and not for the fainthearted. But alongside the recognition, we must be careful not to go completely overboard with that and start blamimng ourselves for living humdrum lives.

That's when hopefully after that part of the journey you come to a more centered and balanced place, where you can embrace and accept the mistakes, but also embrace and love the person who made them, yourself.

The good part of the journey is the part that enables you to see the faults, mistakes, work on them, make changes, and then, like an artist be able to step back and admire the finished article. A whole and healed you, who can love who you are, but like any healthy relationship you can be realistic about yourself too.

Not many people get to experience what we do. By that i mean the LBS standing experience. Many move on quickly, many get stuck in their pain.
But those of us who are able to do it, for however long, it brings unexpected gifts and treasures. I'm a work in progress still, but i'm enjoying the process a lot more.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: Dontgiveup on March 13, 2011, 11:22:15 AM

trying2bok

While I agree that saving the marriage is not the primary intent here, I will say that one of the reasons I came on here was that RCR talked about Standing because of the belief in marriage.  When dealing with a spouse in MLC, saving the marriage may not be able to be a goal, as the MLCer can control on the front side of MLC whether the marriage stays or goes.

I Stand because it's the right thing to do.....it's my belief system.....and I love my ex-wife to the point that I am willing to let this MLC process do it's thing.

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: limitless on March 13, 2011, 11:53:51 AM

DGU,
Congratulations on reaching your 500th post!
You are an example of the fact that a divorce (if it happens) is just a piece of paper.
It really doesn't mean anything regarding the MLC and LBS journeys.
It doesn't end the pain that the MLC feels - even though they think that it could.
It doesn't end the LBS' journey.
It actually doesn't really end the marriage.  That happened back at BD.  The marriage died.  That relationship can never come back.
I guess what makes us different - is that deep down we know that a new marriage, a new relationship CAN be there - out in the distance of the horizon.
We hold on (even though we detach ;)) - as we know that our spouses are there - somewhere - deep in the alien who has invaded their body.  The people that we loved - had character, were brave, were loving/kind people - before they somehow lost their way.
I do not love the man my H is now.  I love the man he was....the man he can be.
Although I have truly let him go....I haven't given up on him.  I trust that he will do what he needs to do - to become the man he needs to be for himself.  Just as I work to become the woman that I need to be for my kids and myself.
I guess that's what makes us different.

L

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: Dontgiveup on March 13, 2011, 12:08:27 PM

Laursecan

Thank you.....that's very kind of you to say. 

I agree....no reason to be concerned about my divorce right now as my ex-wife's MLC trumps that.  One thing at a time I guess......besides, I'm a man, so I'm sure you will understand about my inability to multitask.

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: Bewildered on March 13, 2011, 02:05:31 PM

I agree with V .. I think I am lucky that I am using this time to become the person I can be and funny its what I want my H to be the person he can be ... so WOW if we can both navigate the issues that are his MLC and my reacting to it then well we maybe OK (or more than OK)

Use this time to do as V says .. it isn't about him yes keep an eye on him as it may give you a sense of peace but don't let what you hear or see unless its accurate (and I am not sure thus ever applies) become real .. remember we get a glimpse of reality - we may have A but B,C, D are missing - Don't fill in these blocks  - they wont be true or honest - just go wit the flow and learn to love yourself and if he or she cant do the same ...well what will you find attractive in a mean, angry,pitiful,l self- absorbed, selfish etc person ......... 0!

b x

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: readytofixmyselffirst on March 13, 2011, 04:10:24 PM

Yes, this is about your journey. Standing is not about saving the marriage. It may start in that quest, but eventually, it becomes about healing and rebuilding one person. The LBSer has to change and develop in order to becomes a stronger. You will reach a point as well where you will realize that the only way you can overcome is to build your own life as if he or she is not coming back.

That is when the journey really begins and the LBSer identifies the traits and issues that they contributed to the issues of the marriage. Where they can identify their own strengths and weaknesses that they need to address and analyze for their own self growth.

The rest is up to the MLCer and if they can find their way back. There is a shift of power as the LBSer originally concedes everything to the MLCer. That the MLCer enjoys life, has no cares or concerns, and is having their way. Then the LBSer begins to recover. The difference is that many dump the MLCer and divorce immediately. THe LBSer recovers and decides to try and win the MLCer back.

They may or may not succeed, but the ability to recover and renew put the LBSer at a better position to succeed in life. It is not easy and the path is fraught with pain and disappointment, but the end is an emotionally healthier person. (((Hugs)))

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: Bewildered on March 13, 2011, 04:17:31 PM

I can testify this is what happens  .. the LBS gets stronger the MLC weaker
the LBS more assured the MLCer broken and confused
the LBS likes themselves because they have looked deep into WHO they had become and throw away the bad bits the MLC er well they are not sure vacillating from this person tothat person until they start to accept they need to be the better side of themselves - all lessons of life.
my H is now more nervous around me, tries to please the kids all the time and me inadvertently and is the lost one
a true reversal of where we both where at the beginning o his MLC!

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: stayed on March 14, 2011, 12:31:13 AM

Quote

Not many people get to experience what we do. By that i mean the LBS standing experience. Many move on quickly, many get stuck in their pain.
But those of us who are able to do it, for however long, it brings unexpected gifts and treasures. I'm a work in progress still, but I'm enjoying the process a lot more.

Voyager, your ENTIRE post was 100% correct.  You explained all the stages so perfectly, it was like you were in my head.  I guess the MLCer's are not the only ones, who have a "script". 

I too feel I have been given a gift.  An opportunity to "remake" myself, so to say.  I am STILL a work in procress, as the tendency to "return" to how you were, is strong within each of us. 

Everybody, Ready, Bewildered, Voyager, and others, have given you the most in depth look at this process that even RCR's and HB's well written articles, had not provided.  We are all real people, living/surviving a real situation.

Everybody who has responded to this QUESTION, has chosen to make this MISSION about themselves.  They have chosen to rebuild themselves, learn and grow, survive and thrive. 

They are magnificent people.  Your choice dear.  Choose wisely, like they have.

hugs Stayed...

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: Trustandlove on March 14, 2011, 03:54:17 AM

Hi,  trying2bok,

I, too, am one who came here -- to RCR's site even before the forum started -- with the idea of still finding a way to fix everything.  And I'm a long-term inmate in the LBS process.....

I did all you describe, read everything, found a counsellor who was going to help me strategise my way through this, we tried to manufacture the situations that would make H think, turn back, all that. 

Along the way, I'll add, I DID get a life, work on myself, everything -- everything that is advocated here.  But I was still trying to fix it, even while detaching and letting go. 

We, too, as LBS have to go through a process, and it's a long one.  I think this site helps us navigate it better than any other I've found, and I do read a lot. 

I'm not trying to remake myself into something completely different -- I think of it as me, only better.   

Funnily enough, I was talking around this to my H last week.  He was wondering if I really had changed with regards to a certain topic, I said yes, definitely.  It's true.  It's one area where I know for sure that I have changed my behaviour.  And I won't change back; I like it a lot better this way. 

That is only one specific behaviour; there are other examples.  But the key here is that I also said that I hadn't changed the core of who I was -- and that that core was the same one with which he fell in love over 20 years ago.  I'm me, only better. 

We stand for all the reasons that stayed and Voyager and everyone else writes about so eloquently, and also because we see and know the core of the person we love -- we stand because we believe that that core is still there, despite current behaviour. 

T2b, I heard that story about Holland and Italy when my children were born, as they have a host of special needs.  At the time I remember kicking and screaming against that.  Well, it's true.  Holland is actually quite nice.

When this happened I remember thinking 'Oh, s***, don't tell me I have to go to Holland again'.  I was yet again kicking and screaming against this process.  I've watched my H cycle through his process for a long time now; I finally see how me making changes does change what he responds to, even if it can't influence his response. 

All I know is that we have to see this process through to the end, for US. 

Interestingly, I've found that a byproduct of all the work I've been doing on this for myself has an effect on how I deal with problems in my FOO, and how I deal with work issues.  All in a very positive way. 

Us being stronger can act as an attractive force to the MLCer, but ultimately it benefits us ourselves. 

xx

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: stayed on March 14, 2011, 04:12:01 AM

Quote

we stand because we believe that that core is still there, despite current behaviour. 

So true T&L!  The man my h was during his full blown MLC, was not anybody I knew.  I had seen some of the traits in small doses throughout our marriage, but never massed all into ONE big package.  My heart told me, he was going to REGRET what he was doing.  I was right.  I think MOST will as well, if given enough time.  The question always is, how much time does and LBS want to give it?  That is up to the individual.  So we stand until we have had ENOUGH.  Until, we are able to let go and feel we must move forward with or without our MLCer.

Quote

All I know is that we have to see this process through to the end, for US. 

I agree with this TOTALLY.  I believe it so strongly, I become extremely WORRIED when I see another LBS knee jerking.  Making MAJOR decisions before they are in a position of strength and knowledge to make.  I honestly feel, that if we PULL THE PLUG too quickly, we will simply make the situation a thousand times worse.  Ending up divorced, remarried and even more MISERABLE then we were. 

We are terribly fragile and vulnerable after something like this.  The need to somehow BOOST our self esteem can be consuming and many seem to feel WE must be attached to another person to be happy.  This is so untrue.  We need to be happy within ourselves so we do not expect anybody to MAKE us happy.  Until we totally understand that and are able to be happy by ourselves for ourselves, we have no business partnering up with another.

Quote

Interestingly, I've found that a byproduct of all the work I've been doing on this for myself has an effect on how I deal with problems in my FOO, and how I deal with work issues.  All in a very positive way. 

This was the amazing outcome for me as well T&L.  My discoveries from the journey, I was forced to take, proved to benefit ME... in almost every ASPECT of my life.  Work, home, family, community... every possible way. 

Quite honestly, as much as I hated every moment of this ugly situation, I can say, it changed my entire life, without changing the core of who I am, for the better, in every way.

hugs... Stayed...

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: HeartsBlessing on March 14, 2011, 06:01:07 AM

Dear Stayed,

Quote

Everybody, Ready, Bewildered, Voyager, and others, have given you the most in depth look at this process that even RCR's and HB's well written articles, had not provided.  We are all real people, living/surviving a real situation.

Each person learns at a DIFFERENT pace; and the journey for each is just as different as each person is different.

There is not only the straightforward journey; but the aspects that are faced by each person.

There is NO way to cover every possibility; there wasn't then, when I was going through, and there isn't now.

The articles provide each person who reads them a guide and a beginning to the journey for each person; that's all.

Now where each person goes with this GUIDE and BEGINNING; is up to them.

You can't possibly think that this kind of INDIVIDUAL KNOWLEDGE is to be HANDED to people on a silver platter; as this is not to be; people's comprehension and understanding is way different; and at different times, just as EACH individual person is different.

RCR and I certainly should NOT EVER be expected to carry that kind of burden for people; no one carried it for US; and it is unreasonable for anyone to expect us to do this for others.

No one did this for me, either; there were many things I had to think out for myself; and this will be true no matter how many people come through on this same type journey.

I learned BETTER and MORE when I thought these things out for myself...and the further I walked my journey; the more I figured out for ME.

Some of the aspects I learned were NOT the same as other people's;  I was an individual, too, and still am.

And unless someone asks the right questions; I can't possibly think of everything; and I should not have to, and I'm NOT supposed to think for others...it is way better when people come to these realizations on their own.

It is better learned that way, for better understanding.

It just doesn't work when people are directly handed the tools; they must learn to USE them in a way that helps them as individuals; and while some things can be taught; some things must be learned on one's own.

My job, as it were, is to get people started; what they do after that, is up to them.

Be thankful that there is at least the articles to get people started; without these; many would still be stumbling in the dark...and that's a fact, as I think back to my own humble beginnings in this trial so long ago.

Stayed, even you came in looking for something you were having trouble finding, you may have found it somewhere else, if not here...but you were looking and found it here.

This place exists because of a dream on RCR's part; and I've been here since this board started last May; because she asked me to come on board.

There's something here for everyone; and I would hope people would take what's offered; and use it for whatever they need it for.

Have a good one.  :)

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: Bewildered on March 14, 2011, 06:52:56 AM

Just wanted to add too this debate on the LBS ....

As HB says to quote her:

Quote

There is NO way to cover every possibility; there wasn't then, when I was going through, and there isn't now.

That is why we find solice with some people more than others on this site .. a mix of views based on experience and THIS is what is so important we share, support, disagree, help, assist and do whatever we can to minimise the pain of the rejection confusement, bewilderment and deep down agony that the LBS - ALL FEEL
I know me and I need more than  one perspective to be able to work it out for myself - sometimes however i cant share it on the forum because I get confused with the advise given and go offkey .. I have never been (not hope I ever am) so arrogant to think that I know what is the right way ?? NO ONE does we need to ask, listen and HEAR then make our own individual decision because its right for us because we have alllowed all angles, prospectives to be looked at??

as HB says;

Quote

The articles provide each person who reads them a guide and a beginning to the journey for each person; that's all.

So true and the combination of such superb articles from twopeople who have travelled this way and own the TShirt of survival they have no currency as they are priceless ... and these added with the experiences of us all along this journey just deepen and strengthen these artices .. WHY? because they are used as guides and the outcomes we are sharing show the value of the words and support that they give.........

I thank everyone on this site for helping me when I need it the most ....
i only hope I can do the same ... we all need to IMO find our individual equilibrium and like ourselves enough to not let the MLC er or anyone  make us doubt who we are and what we can continue to become .. but this comes with help and assistance it always will NO ONE can do this on their own as the MLC er can't  at the end do it on their own they need others ..... their friends, children, what ever and us maybe ???
The difference is we ask for help, we plead for it we know we need it..
the MLC er thinks he/she is invincible and doesn't need anyone especially us - UNTIL ??
IMO to me - marriage makes us part of a team, a partnership and the LBS is usually the less valued in this situation ... it as Stayed says below ;

Quote

The man my h was during his full blown MLC, was not anybody I knew.  I had seen some of the traits in small doses throughout our marriage, but never massed all into ONE big package.  My heart told me, he was going to REGRET what he was doing.

I have looked at and dealt with looking and seeing some of the worst traits throughout my own marriage - which I now know I can not, and will riot be able to accept it the future, its such a shame that a MLC brings out the worst traits and subdues the lovely ones ??? anyone with a view on why??

I am not perfect but I have seen my faults in the whole and they now do not exist WHY? because I worked out why they were there and what I needed to do because I didn't like this about me, to eradicate them from my personality (MY H was correct in some of the accusations he made about me, but I can honestly say my faults are minimal compared with his - maybe that is why hes in a crisis??? ) .
 
I have worked our whole married life, run a home and did all the social side of our marriage, I was proud of him - maybe a little fearful and scares of his wrath of disappointment if you didn't do as he wanted - thought as he did etc.

But was I ever respected fully, treated with respect  - NO I wasn't and instead when I did well he told others how proud of me he was but to me - Nothing and even once said; oh don't introduce me as ; 'Oh let me introduce X my H' just say hi let me introduce me as Mr Bewildered X' as everyone prefers you to me anyway ' so childish (I asked him to stop saying this he carried on .. this was the year before BD. )

Now he is out there trying to find his identity and good luck to him as boy will he need to change a lot/work hard to make any impact, without his role/job he would be lost totally and maybe without me and his family this too is so ... who knows ??

So yes we ALL hate this situation ........ but as Stayed says there are some amazing parts to this journey we are forced to Travel. embrace it and learn from it
Find out what you are capable of and see everything warts and all clearly and calmly and YOU will be more than OK. You only need you to be happy .. I promise a miserable MLC er is the only way to unhappiness. Until he/she sorts there heads out and makes substantial changes .. they are worth little to you - You deserve a better relationship and a honest man/women who loves you as you are and loves themselves because they have worked thought these issues and seen the better way forward.
My H could not take criticism at all especially from me .. by the way one of the major reasons he could not live with me .... but he dishes it out !
BUT now hes taking full on criticism from our kids and acting on it WOW!!

Something about it .... this MLC I think the kids can help them much more than we can when acceptance is close by ... if you let the kids know that they have a voice and can use it and you will always support them they can help the MLC er move forward and face their issues ??? IMO

So where am I with my H well I think (never can be sure so thinkonly a little bit and just let him get on with his crisis) that he is moving along the tunnel - snail like and pathetically but moving on he is!!
 
I say good for him because he will find that there is no rainbow at the end of his journey for him just a realisation that he had everything in his grasp and dropped it and now he needs to pick up the pieces and throw away the black bad ones and keep the silver good ones and bring in the very best the new gold ones ... can he who knows ??? wait and see and I will keep you posted xx

B

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: stayed on March 14, 2011, 07:27:05 AM

First HB let me say, I was not DEMEANING the GREAT outline you and rollercoaster provided for this site.  All the information you two have provided has been some of the MOST helpful material I have seen throughout this journey.

I was simply commented on the ADDED insight that Ready, Voyager, Bewildered and others have provided.  They were personal anecdotes, insightful and uplifting.   

Everybody has added so much to this forum and I find the more I post and read within everybody's threads, the better I am understanding where I was, am and hopefully am going. 

I feel I have offended you in some way HB and no offense was intended. 

Stayed...

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: Mitzpah on March 14, 2011, 08:34:17 AM

Just to say that I think that this site helps us to stand, for whatever reason we do. What makes us different is that we have found strength in our beliefs AND in each other as Voyager says. I also rely on other sources of support when I find them and this weekend I was fortunate to have received a lot of help outside this wonderful forum, which for me is a sign that God is surrounding me with His love and care. As Bewildered says

Quote

the pain of the rejection confusement, bewilderment and deep down agony that the LBS - ALL FEEL

makes us very vulnerable and we are encouraged by companionship, empathy, assistance and advice so freely given here.
When I first came here, I told of my own experience with this type of forum when my middle son had cancer and also when I went through my hysterectomy - this type of fellowship makes a whole difference to how we get through the trials that life places in our journeys here.

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: HeartsBlessing on March 14, 2011, 08:48:18 AM

Stayed,

Quote

I feel I have offended you in some way HB and no offense was intended.

Actually, as a general rule, I'm very thick skinned....but the past few days and weeks have been somewhat of a different story.

For one thing, I'm very stressed out at this point; I'm currently making my delivery not far from home; and I'll be headed to the doctor tomorrow; I'm very worried about what the doctor might have to say.

I drive for a living; and I would hope that nothing will affect that occupation.

The good news is my husband will be home, too; and I'm anxious to see him.

Not that it matters to anyone but me; but this is where I stand at this time.

That comment struck me very hard at the time I read it; and it reminded me of some very nasty comments I'd read last year on the other board I'd been on long ago.

RCR went through these same things, as I did.  I've always kept in mind that these are PEOPLE with lives to lead, and feelings; and I don't EVER want to tell them something that's going to lead them wrong.

People's expectations were very high; and they expected the "wise" ones to simply hand them the answers; so they didn't have to do anything for themselves...and this was not to be.

I was flamed MANY more times than you will ever know for quite of few of the aspects I learned and passed on; simply because I was told they represented NO hope; people didn't want to do the work; they just wanted a way to make this crisis go away quickly; and have their marriages back..and because I knew it wouldn't go the way they wanted it to go; and bluntly told them that, I was insulted, told I didn't know what I was talking about....and you can imagine what I read...because people weren't getting their way in this trial.

They weren't hurting anyone but themselves with their stubbornness, and I let them go..knowing I could not do anything else for them.

And since I still had my marriage; I was supposed to just hand over my 'secret' when there was NO secret; only the journey and the work being done within me; and people weren't willing to do some of the things I did..and this, made ME look like a doormat during the crisis.

I have NO shame for what I did to help save my marriage; none whatsoever; I did what I knew was best for ME; I endured through; letting pass some things that maybe other people wouldn't let go of...it just wasn't that important at the time whatever it was was happening.

They needed to grow up and through this trial; it was the only way; and they were fighting that process tooth and nail.

For example; I have seen, and do present BOTH sides of the coin as it comes up; there's a possibility the marriage will make it, AND the possibility the marriage won't make it...but there are still things the MLC'er and LBS must do; as individuals to make their lives whole and the marriage is simply a bonus.

Marriage was never meant to be a means to an end, neither was one person supposed to get "lost" in the other.

And when someone comes along; and seems to criticize not getting all the fine details of what will happen on a journey; to me, that's expecting too much of anyone.

That is how I read your comment, Stayed...I read it twice and was very surprised; because that didn't sound like you at all.

I thought about it; and just answered it to make very clear for others that followed the thread that this is not all about simply getting the answers handed to you......this is about growing, changing; and becoming what you were meant to be.  And you'll do this on your OWN, most times WITHOUT help; simply because each person is different.

There are NO "pat" or "one size fits all" answers for everyone.

If a teacher simply provided all the answers to all situations, the students wouldn't learn anything on their own.

They would always be looking to, leaning on; and never finding their own feet to stand.

You probably wouldn't be surprised at the people who come looking for a quick fix...and you know, as well as I do, this won't happen either.

I had thought of the analogy of when I learned to drive an 18 wheeler nearly nine years ago; I got straightforward training, then, trained with a driver trainer...and then, I was on my own; and I learned MORE aspects than anyone could have covered in the time I was in the first two phases of training.

Did this mean I came back on the trainer, or even the school I started with for what they didn't teach me? NO, I learned the most that I have ever learned, on my own...and I'm STILL learning.

This can be applied to the journey the LBS goes on; the start, the learning and the help needed comes when someone arrives here needing help; because they don't know what's going on..and you would be surprised at how many people come for help that know nothing...we've gotten some people who've already learned by simply reading here and elsewhere.

I do not want or wish for people to think they aren't getting enough here...they are getting exactly what they need to do for themselves.

And what people gain from this board does NOT all come from what RCR and I have written over time; people like yourself; that brings in another point of view; also helps.

I had no intention of offending you, either; but when I see something; I will call someone out on it; this is who I am.

And I always expect to be challenged on what I say; if someone doesn't ask questions, and simply takes what I say to be truth; that's one thing, yet, to learn more is to challenge me is to expand the explanation; yet, I'm also learning from people who present a different point of view, as there is NO one way of navigating the trial at hand.

And I read many of your posts with interest; as you do present a vastly different point of view; as you survived this crisis in a much different way than I did...and I learn things from you, too..just so you know. :)

And just so you know, I'm not angry; just blunt, as always. :)

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: Rollercoasterider on March 14, 2011, 09:20:11 AM

I have not read all the way through. I just wanted to say that this is an interesting topic and has got me to thinking. Maybe these topic threads will be good places for me to look at when considering blog articles. This one has already generated a lot of thought in my brain. Thank You! I will eventually print it out and review it in detail as part of my research.

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: justasking on March 14, 2011, 09:30:36 AM

HB is right. We all approach our lives from different directions. Whilst on our journey we meet different people with different ideas and views, all very relevant but different.

As we are all different we tend to find the view, advice and support that fits our particular journey. Some views are very different but no less helpful.

As every MLC er is different so is the LBS, as previously stated. Differences should be acknowledged and accepted. Every piece of information is relevant for someone. None is ever wrong.

I remember one of those boards and left because the attitude and belligerence from some posters was totally unacceptable and unhelpful The way we all accept each others differences on here is amazing. Long may it continue.

Thinking of you tomorrow HB. The thought of a Dr visit is always worse that the viasit itself. Remember deep breaths and lovely thoughts will get you through. Only cross the bridges you need to when they happen.

((HB)) xx

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: OldPilot on March 14, 2011, 11:07:10 AM

Quote from: HeartsBlessing on March 14, 2011, 08:48:18 AM

And when someone comes along; and seems to criticize not getting all the fine details of what will happen on a journey; to me, that's expecting too much of anyone.

They have broken rule #1 of having EXPECTATIONS

IMHO HB you have given everyone as much information and guidance as anyone could possibly ask for.
It is all down there in black and white.

What we do with it is all up to us.

My honest belief in all of this is that there is one variable that is out of all our control.
It may be the most important variable.
It is TIME!

We have been given the gift of time but when we expect it to be short, we have really missed the boat.

There is no way that you can predict this and many times HB you have said that time is based on HIS time not ours.
So I think we should all be very greatful that you have give us such wisdom.

Good luck at the doctors tomorrow.
Make sure he knows what he is doing.  :) :) :)
You have valuable cargo on board!!!!     

YOU!!!!

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: HeartsBlessing on March 14, 2011, 11:12:03 AM

Quote

Thinking of you tomorrow HB. The thought of a Dr visit is always worse that the viasit itself. Remember deep breaths and lovely thoughts will get you through. Only cross the bridges you need to when they happen.

Hugs to you, too, JA; thanks for thinking of me; it's hard not to cross certain bridges before you come to them.

My health is the most precious thing I possess; and anything threatening that worries me.

I'm human, too, the last time I checked. :)  And, I know God has me in His Hands; if He hadn't been with me many times over; I wouldn't be here, now. :)

Love to you,
HB

OP, just caught your post, and you are absolutely correct in all you say about time; time is what you have to work; and this process takes time. :)

Take care all. :)

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: stayed on March 14, 2011, 02:31:55 PM

Quote

Everybody, Ready, Bewildered, Voyager, and others, have given you the most in depth look at this process that even RCR's and HB's well written articles, had not provided.  We are all real people, living/surviving a real situation.

These articles written by HP and RCR, were the stepping stones to the comments made by almost everybody who has responded to this question,"what makes us different".  There was no intent to discredit these articles.  I was emphasizing how effective they have been!  In fact how much further the concept has been promoted by these people, as it has helped them to appreciate the journey they have found themselves embracing.

I hope your doctor appointment goes better then you seem to be expecting. 

Stayed...

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: With Gods Help! on March 14, 2011, 03:40:34 PM

Hi everyone i must admit when i first came to this site i was looking for quick answers i just wanted all this over with, however i have with time realised this is a process that we each must go through and no two journeys are the same.......although we all endure the hurt, pain fear and the abandonment we come here because we are not judged as we would be by those who have not walked in our shoes, we read each others posts and pick bits from the sitchs we feel will help us, not just to get our h's/w's back (well yes in the beginning we do) but also for us to be strong enough to get through this, without this site i would probably still want my h see me as his victim when in actual fact im a survivor with strength and commitment that will see me through to the end where ever the end takes me xxxxx   

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: stayed on March 14, 2011, 04:00:29 PM

Exactly With God's Help.  I remember searching the web, looking for a place that ENCOURAGED betrayed spouses to hold firm.  Like you, I desperately wanted quick fixes... wanted my h to come back and to not feel so DREADFUL! 

That is just what this site does, except it shows that this can be a blessing, if we let it be.  If we take the time to find ourselves, this crisis can actually be the making of us, rather then the destruction as we initially see it. 

I wish this site had been around, when this first happened to me, as I am sure, I would have recovered much quicker.  Whatever our situations are, although they are all unique and similar at the same time, the process is still the same. 

Accept.  Embrace the process and do your journey.  There is no way around, over or under this, only one route and that is through.  With the right guidance, such as sites like this one, the journey is eventually embraced, bringing hope and enlightenment with it.  With or without your spouse.
hugs Stayed...

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: HeartsBlessing on March 14, 2011, 05:44:55 PM

If it would make anyone feel any better; I did the SAME thing in the beginning; did the wondering what I had done wrong; wondering what I had done to deserve what I was getting; wondering WHY ME?

I searched myself at that time; but it didn't help that he was treating me like common dirt; and being the good little co dependent that I was; I figured it was all my fault; but didn't know what to do.

I felt I had given so much, gotten back so little; and the whys of the situation were eluding me.

The only search I remember running on the internet in the early days was to find out the signs of an affair; because it was the only thing I could think of that he might be doing.  And he was; and that nearly did me in.

It was different PEOPLE that helped to start me on my journey; not a message board; I didn't find that other site I wrote these other things on until we'd been in this for several months.

I was like some of the people that show up long after their bomb drop; I'd already been dealing for some time when I arrived on the other site.

And I don't remember exactly HOW I ended up there; only that I did; through an internet search; the thought was that there had to be something more than what I was already doing.

It was something else to find that other than a great amount of wisdom was being posted by a few men and women; there was practically NOTHING...not like there is now.

I stayed on that site until early 2003; and left for good until last year.

MLC was even LESS known then; and we're talking about early 2002...Jim Conway was the only author I knew of at that time that had written on it; besides a number of other authors whose books, I had trouble with; and his was the clearest written; I ordered his book to read to help me understand more.

Would you believe, that to understand OW/OMs, and their behavior, I lurked on a message board designed FOR these particular type people for awhile; it was part of my research.

They posted some of the most sickening things I had ever read; there were DETAILs about their sex lives with their Married people; and when the affair broke down; they grieved JUST LIKE the MLC'er's/philanderers, they'd entrapped for a time.  Some of them had "dreams" of marrying their married man/married woman; but those dreams NEVER came true for these people.....for the majority it came down to the fact(and this was OWs) that they were USING the person they were involved with for MONEY and MAINTENANCE.

I didn't read anything about any of the women getting pregnant to further trap their married men; yet, these people were truly predators; and they didn't care about the spouse; in fact, they complained about them all of the time...how they were "getting in the way" of their "true love."  Things like that.
Quite a bit of what I learned went into one of the lessons I wrote about OWs and how they work.

I lurked on that particular board for nearly six months, reading and absorbing the information there...I came out knowing more than I ever wanted to know.  :)

But, I'm glad I did...knowledge is truly power.  :)

Research was part of my lessons; and I learned that very well.

I'd have to say there's more information on MLC on the internet now, than there was back when I was going through this mess with my husband.

It's another step forward toward more information on MLC, at least.

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: Dontgiveup on March 14, 2011, 06:21:30 PM

I am going to chime in express sincere thanks to RCR.  I am thankful for this website in general, including the blog. 

For me though, it's the articles.  The articles contain the most informative, accurate information that I have found in regard to MLC.  They have helped me to understand and Accept the process of MLC....and for that, I am very thankful.

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: stayed on March 15, 2011, 02:50:45 AM

What a ride!  Can't say I enjoyed it, but once I started getting more information and eventually found other people that were going through the same thing, it honestly became easier.  Just felt so alone and such a "failure" at first. 

I too blamed myself, as the good little codependant wife I was.  Thought I was just a precious little Suzie homemaker... eeeeeeeek, makes me gag, when I think about it.  :-\

You are right, even in 2004-05, there was not a lot of information available about MLC.  Odd too, because I was always seeing articles in newspapers and magazines about the subject.  I was stunned to find very little real, documentation about the subject. 

The big truth though.... ...knowledge is truly power.    The most powerful tool of all, other then a strong heart! 

Stayed...

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: BonBon on March 15, 2011, 06:19:11 AM

The information on this site is invaluable and I can't thank enough all of you who post to the forum and those of you who have written so much in terms of resources.

I am on one other small forum and I enjoy it there as well.  It is sad but comforting at the same time to know you are not alone.

I too am dismayed that there is so little on the MLC and particularly, the ml "C" as opposed to ML Transition. 

When I first started researching I came across so many flowery stories of people in transition and how fabulous it was.  It took me a long time to find stories of the hell they go through and worse, the hell they put their spouses through.

Even if the journey iltimately brings both the MLCer and the LBS to a new and better place as individuals and/or as a couple, there is no doubt it is hell and I have to say I got very sick of reading alot of existential drivel about this transition that never addressed the fact my life got turned upside down, my heart got broken in the process and my husband was possessed by an alien... :o

Thank God for this place...and for all of you so willing to share and help.

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: Mitzpah on March 15, 2011, 06:23:28 AM

I agree with you BB!

Quote

Even if the journey iltimately brings both the MLCer and the LBS to a new and better place as individuals and/or as a couple, there is no doubt it is hell and I have to say I got very sick of reading alot of existential drivel about this transition that never addressed the fact my life got turned upside down, my heart got broken in the process and my husband was possessed by an alien...

That is one of the reasons I am glad I found this site!

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: stayed on March 16, 2011, 04:12:29 AM

It's the UNKNOWN parts that get to us all.  Sure, it's good to know that there can and most likely will be GREAT ENDINGS... but how the devil to you get to that point, right.  :-\

I figured I would get through it, like you guys, I just didn't have any idea how to get "started"... like most things, the "starting" is the tricky bit. hehehe.

This site is OUTSTANDING in the information it shares, so willingly with anybody who cares to listen.  You have no idea how often, since I found this site, that I have thought, "dang, where was this site when I NEEDED it".  That being said, I think I found it EXACTLY when I was needing it the most.  There was so much, I didn't know and this site has filled in the blanks. 

It is definitely one of the best resource I have found to complete the journey to wholeness.  I am so glad I found it.

hugs Stayed...

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: DCD on March 16, 2011, 08:29:05 AM

Quote from: stayed on March 16, 2011, 04:12:29 AM

It is definitely one of the best resource I have found to complete the journey to wholeness.  I am so glad I found it.

DEFINITELY!  i went through a whole bunch of "win your husband back" type sites before stumbling onto this one...and i know for a fact i would be bound up and drooling in a "comfy" room somewhere if it wasn't for this site...and for the people on it :D.  i know how i used to react (very much REACT) and i know that i would not be in the better place that i am today if i had been set loose on him with my old way of thinking.  pretty sure he's in a better place physically than he would have been if i had been set loose on him with my old way of thinking. 

Title: Re: What makes us different?
Post by: stayed on March 16, 2011, 08:35:17 AM

 ;D ;D Different-Coloured Days... I was actually thinking of designing coloured straight jackets... hehehe.... !!!!

I can't believe more of us do not end up insane... or at least in jail for attempted murder.... it is that mind boggling a situation.

hugs and thanks for the laugh... Stayed...