[LisaLives]

LG, I absolutely have gotten and expect the best of people.  I could be horribly betrayed tomorrow by someone I love and trust, but I will not live in fear.  I have many people in my life who have not always been honorable and I can't say I have always been honorable, but right now I am surrounded by people I love and trust and who love and trust me.   

I have never knowingly betrayed a sacred trust that jeopardized a person I cared for, nor can I imagine ever doing so.  And, because I don't want to live with suspicion and fear, I have never again extended trust to a person who betrayed me, even a little.  There are far too many people in the world that have not burned bridges to me than to take a second or third chance on someone who has.  That said, no one who has ever betrayed me has cared enough to ask forgiveness, and I did not value them enough to pursue it.   

I believe in forgiveness, when wrongs are recognized, forgiveness is wanted, and remediation is offered.  I don't believe forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves.  Acceptance is, tolerance is, but forgiveness must be earned--not through olympic efforts, but by acknowledging a wrong, even if it was not intentional, and offering to make up for it.  I have written LONG letters to exH asking forgiveness for all the possible things I could possibly have done to him and asked him to recognize what he has done to me and our family.  He has neither forgiven me, acknowledged doing anything wrong, or accepted any recommendations to abate the betrayal.     

If the old relationship and marriage are dead and R is a new start, then there must be trust.  In order to trust exH again, he would have to seek forgiveness, and prove he intends to act honorably.  Until I believe him, I am positive he should find me untrustworthy.  When I imagine R and the difficulty I have seen others go through, I have a hard time imagining me "all in" until I see him make A LOT of effort  He was the one person, besides my kids, that I would have given my life, without hesitation.  It would take a LONG time before I could ever FEEL that again, but I would have to have that level of trust with him--exactly because of our history and our kids.  I would never hold another person to that standard--perhaps that's not fair, and perhaps that's just me, but I would not want to have him back and have "less."  If I were going to settle for less, why not just settle for another person?         

I will always love him, but "standing" to me feels like continuing to sacrifice myself on the alter of his selfishness and betrayal.  I partly wish I could be that heroic, but a part of me thinks it's insane.  When I look at all the amazing people here and I imagine the fantasy assemblage of all their MLCers in a giant jail cell, I just want to kick the s#$% ouf of all of them--really--I find it all so RIDICULOUS.  And it's exactly because I have empathy and compassion that I feel so angry and frustrated right now--look at what good people go through just to live in some situations, and our MLCers are moping around feeling sorry for themselves in ridiculous situations of their own making--seriously?     

And again I come back to--where is the point of no return, we all should have one.  When I was a business owner, I knew I needed an exit plan, and I knew when it should be activated.  We all have investment stop-loss plans, or should.  We all think about end-of-life decisions.  We generally know what we will and will not accept from our friends.  Is marriage really SO sacred to you, your god, whoever, that you will sacrifice yourself forever--because I think "standing" or maintaining a commitment to someone who does not honor you in the same way is a sacrifice-- and a tragedy.  We are relational beings and if you reserve a valuable part of yourself for someone who clearly does not value it, and it could benefit another human, then you are wasting your vital life force and energy--and that's a crime in a world where good people do without.     

Anyway, I am getting down off my soap box now.  I am in a bit of a "way" these days.  I am just tired of dealing with all his s#(% and tired of the fact that all of you have to deal with even more--it's just a sad and ridiculous situation!  And I am really not advocating not standing, but I am advocating for an MLC Inquisition process where I get to beat the crap out of anyone who acts ridiculous.  They all need to be sent before an MLC panel where they will receive a contract:  You have one year to get your emotional house in order, do what you will, report monthly for STD testing, pay your ordered support, maintain your job, and in a year report back on your progress.  We expect results, or you will be sent to MLC work camp for remediation where you will participate in daily therapy and life skills education.  Your family will grade you monthly and your release will be contingent on their approval...  And if you get ridiculous you will be disciplined by Lisa who will not be wearing heels and leather, that is reserved for those who make progress...  Yes, I do think it's a bit funny--MLC is a disease of wealth and leisure and we don'y have time for it anymore--our entire world is in a recession and we are wasting productivity on this inane navel gazing...  That got a little off track, but I am posting it anyway, I feel a bit better... 

[TrustingMyHP]

Lisa,

Loved that last paragraph!  MLC inquisition is a great idea!

Thanks for giving me a laugh.  It's the first one I've had today (and that's sad because it's my b-day.)

TMHP

[LettingGo]

I hear ya, LisaLives... I really do. I don't advocate that anyone sacrifice themselves.... I don't feel I'm sacrificing MYSELF, but I am willing to sacrifice for my marriage and my family. I believe that's what it takes, whether there is betrayal or not. I also know that everyone is capable of great betrayal.. EVERYONE.

I find it hard to believe certain stories of forgiveness in the world myself... I think "I could not do that!!" One I read about recently was the Mother of a young man who was gunned down by a gang member... her son was an innocent bystander, the gangmember was enraged over a perceived rivalry over a GIRL... anyway... she was able to forgive the young man (18 at the time of the murder) for the loss of her son. She contacted him in prison for her "closure", and they became "friends"... the murderer was repentant.... but it was TOO LATE.... he couldn't turn back the hands of time.... he didn't SEE that the road he was traveling was headed for MURDER and PRISON... he admitted her son could have been ANYONE.... that it was all about HIM... he didn't UNDERSTAND the very REAL consequences...

Psychologists have found that teenage brains are not fully developed for understanding... while MLCers are NOT teenagers, their brain function HAS gone awry. I would simply NOT hold them to the standard of someone whose brains are fully developed and functional. Anyway, this woman became the murderers SURROGATE Mother.... something I don't believe I would be able to do... She claims she NEVER IMAGINED she could  forgive her only child's murderer... but she has, and they have forged GOOD out of EVIL.... the young man has completed his prison sentence and fully understands the gift he has been given in life.... but he cannot change things. I'm sure he has asked for forgiveness.... but the woman forgave him LONG BEFORE HE ASKED FOR IT. This is what many standers believe... that they are CALLED TO FORGIVE for their OWN sakes.... when I felt that calling, it was a complete and utter surprise... yet, my Mother does NOT forgive those who transgress against her, and thus she is betrayed, or percieves betrayal OVER AND OVER.

Your arguments are succinct and valid, and totally appropriate for you. I'm sure it is difficult for you to understand why "standers" stand.... it must be a curiosity or you wouldn't be here. One cannot fully let go until one FULLY FORGIVES.... food for thought... and though I've forgiven, the transgressions are ongoing... and I have not fully let go. But I will be able to... because I'm able to forgive OW and my husband, doesn't mean I have to like what they are doing or that I don't get angry over it... I do. Forgiveness is for me. It has nothing to do with trust.

As for the MLC inquisition.... I would like to reinstate the Scarlet Letter... but make it for the MLCer AND the OW, LOL!!! Also, stocks where we can throw rotten fruit at them!!

[Thundarr]

LisaLives,

I agree with your position wholeheartedly, but at the same time it is not for me (at least not at this time).  I believe that anything is forgivable and that as Christians we are called to forgive just as we ask God's forgiveness for our transgressions.  While I have not had to deal with what many on here have (at least not yet but I know it's likely), I have searched my soul to see if I could forgive a PA if it were to happen.  I believe now that I could as I have had to ask forgiveness from my W for that very same thing 19 years ago.  This may be the strongest test of my value system ever and one in which I hope I am not found wanting.

I read a post by HB many months ago about not taking what our spouses are doing personally.  Her point was that what they do does not truly hurt us directly, but only to the extent that we allow it to.  It hurts them both in the fact that it destroys trust others have in them as well as the offense to their own bodies they visit upon themselves.  In truth, that is correct and not something I would have been able to see that way had I not been privy to HB's wisdom.  If I choose to want (or accept if the opportunity ever happens) her back after a PA that is entirely my choice and should not be dependent upon her having defiled herself but rather on my capability to forgive and not judge her.  And, if I wait for her to ask for forgiveness then I am making it conditional and therefore not agape as RCR and many others point out.  We are called to forgive those who offend us whether they ask for it or not.  Asking for it is for their own penance, and it truly doesn't affect us at all as we have no way of knowing if they are sincere or not other than our own instincts.  In summary, we forgive for us.  We ask for forgiveness for us.  They are the same in that regard, IMHO.