[Freddygone]

St&Del........Brilliant

[StandandDeliver]

It seems that in many situations our MLCers indulge in Gaslighting behaviours that are insidious, cause the LBS to question their own perception of reality and our own self-worth to the extent that by the time BD happens we are already psychologically weakened by months of lying and emotional manipulation. For instance, I discovered that my H had been lying about things (not just the affair) for months - during that time I occasionally would lose my temper with him and the end result would always be me feeling bad about "what I had done" by yelling. No matter how VALID my complaints about his behaviour or our relationship, somehow it was always me that walked away from exchanges feeling worse about myself. With the power of hindsight and my renewed sense of self, I KNOW without a shadow of doubt that I was on the receiving end of months, if not years, of significant gaslighting behaviour. 

I guess I am starting this discussion because I was wondering about what others make of the link between gaslighting and MLC. If a person uses this form of emotional abuse to navigate life (even if only during MLC), how can we believe that they will not continue to use these patterns going forward for the rest of their life? My H was more emotionally honest earlier in our marriage, but he feels he has always been conflict avoidant, but imo that the conflict avoidance fuelled the development of manipulative, dishonest and frankly much more abusive ways of being even before his crisis was fully underway. He avoided, which then turned into lying, which eventually became gaslighting - making me feel bad about my more emotionally honest way of interacting with the world. It is interesting to me, as well, that H does not have many friends, and never has done. He has never "put himself out" for other people. He would always contact everyone when he had something to boast about, but he did not look after friendships or others unless he felt that there was a gain (ie. work colleagues) to be had. Now, part of this may be the result gender socialising that happens in our culture (women often valued for "caretaking") but still, he did not even do any activities that EVER involved regular male bonding - no sports, no going out, no poker nights with a regular friend or friends. The burden to be his "everything"; friend, lover, co-parent, even mother, career counsellor, housekeeper, admin assistant all fell on me - and I think that it was a set of roles I could not possibly fulfil brilliantly all of the time. I never had any time to really put me first for anything our relationship.

So, it seems that some people in MLC really "change" during the crisis, but for others the crisis is just a hyper magnification of all the negative character traits already evident in someone who failed to learn healthy ways to express themselves and to interact with the world. Maybe I am rewriting history now, but I look back and I see myself as a person who was fighting to "grow" within the relationship as my life changed as I became a mother, as my priorities shifted while my H remained a "little boy". It is weird because I look back at our time together and I imagine myself the way that I am; as a woman, not a little girl, whereas I always view him as an insecure young boy, not a man. Maybe he will never become a man - he has moved in with a girl who is 10 years younger and who has significant self-esteem issues, including mega abandonment issues from her father, and will be easier to manipulate than I ever was (although God knows he tried). They are living their party lifestyle and "pretend" at being parents for the odd weekend or week that they have the kids, but then revert back to their childish behaviours. Apparently (according to my S) OW has a bed filled with stuffed toys like an 8 year old child. I mean I have nothing against having some toys that remind you of your childhood and that you are attached to, but I think that there is something a bit disturbed about being a 28 year old who thinks it is cute to behave like a 8 year old. And I am shocked to think that H could find this endearing (and is happy to have his bed covered in fluffy fake animals).

Any thoughts re: gaslighting and MLC?

[kikki]

Hi S and D

Yes, definitely think that there is a link between the two.  Wonder if gaslighting goes along with the MLC narcissism??

Pretty sure there was an older gaslighting thread somewhere?

[missybuddha]

yes I started a thread



after I realised what had been happening  to me was gaslighting. (actually I had been gaslighted  for quite some time). It was a funny kind of relief to read around this subject and look back and realise that. cold comfort really.

In my IC I'm undoing unravelling the effects on me of this behaviour and  working on trusting my perception.




Edit:  threads merged

[missybuddha]

....and Stand your post has great resonance with me, my h didn't nurture his male friendships or cultivate them, his EA was with a woman (17 years younger) who had been abandoned by her mother.
He expected (and it was pointed in MC that only infants can expect to have their needs met without asking for them) me to intuit what he wanted and recently, as (inevitably) I fell short and my shortcomings were pointed out it was another reason why we should seperate "I would expect my life partner to understand that/do that".

...and this brings me to really deeply reflect on if I should stand or not. I am for now and being still but in my inner core is the fact that this man has (and on a level I allowed it/certainly facilitated it) emotionally abused me for some time. that alone makes me feel angry let alone everything else. and makes me question why I would want to be around him in any way. BUT I am working on myself and am building up inner strength awareness and protection.
only time will tell. I'm early on in this process (bd was 10 months ago) but I do perceive my h as an extremely manipulative man and trust nothing, brush it off.

[StandandDeliver]

Thanks mb - I responded in your thread at the time! I just couldn't find it again!

I am not so far ahead of you really - BD was 13 mths ago and H left 12 mths ago. We also did MC and a lot was pointed out about his behaviours that I now realise was the MCer basically diagnosing gaslighting behaviour.

I suppose the thing is that our H's have found younger and immature women to manipulate because this method of interacting with us was no longer working in a way that gave them  the results they were looking for. My H stated that it was my job to "complete" him (and even in my very vulnerable state I knew that that was a ridiculous expectation - how could I be me AND complete him? He was a seperate person fgs!). I almost feel sorry for OW because I have made my escape  and she is just embarking on a relationship with a narcissitic, gaslighting man who will imo, also abandon her if she does not walk away first (she probably has a pattern of finding men she can abandon or who will abandon her, just a guess).

I actually just feel stupid that I allowed the behaviour in my life for so long. I refuse to regret my marriage (because, of course, I adore my children) but I do wonder if I would have avoided being stuck with someone immature, narcissistic and gaslighting if I had been single for some of my early adult life.

[Stillpraying]

S&D,
I can totally relate to your first post on this thread.
If you check the other thread there is a good link there about gaslighting.
My H commonly complained that I berated him in front of the children.  it was something discussed at counselling and I tried really hard not to criticise him in front of the kids.  However, looking back on a number of situations I can see I never even started a fight in front of them.  He did.  The last one was when he was collecting stuff after he left and I received the most awful hurtful text from him and ordering me to never berate him in front of the kids.  All those times I actually apologised because he had me believing I did do that.  On this occasion, I just spoke to him stating he could have cleaned up the mess after taking his furniture and he was the one that STORMED into the house and yelled at me in front of the kids.
I don't know how he managed to get me sucked in SO quickly but I was.  I never saw it for what it was until after he left and I had time to reflect on the facts of what happened.  Then I was like "Hang on a minute!  I never......!!" (all to myself ofcourse).
SP

[missybuddha]

Stand, we will never know how things would have been different but I'm sure we were how we were in order to provide the best environment to nurture our children.

 I started to perceive my h and our roles together once I read the chapter of Bluebeard in Women who run with the wolves by clarissa pinkola estes. I let him have the power in our m. or he took it., stole it,harvested it.
But there is no doubt that he is not the man I knew. the children see him as manipulative/distorting things.

Great, so .... all more reason to work on myself. to work out how I didn't blow him out of the water every time he gaslighted me. ( by telling me I was insecure; he insinuated that I behaved unconciously to hurt him; my nurturing behaviour was "violent" that sort of thing)

because to undermine someone else's sense of reality/ perception is very very abusive behaviour, bullying And I should have put a stop to it. but I didn't listen to myself.


and Still yes totally agree with this:-
 "I don't know how he managed to get me sucked in SO quickly but I was.  I never saw it for what it was until after he left and I had time to reflect on the facts of what happened.  Then I was like "Hang on a minute!  I never......!!""

I know. It is the worst feeling when you doubt yourself or realise in retrospect that it was not so.

Hope you don't mind mb I am just adding the book link from your original thread to help anyone who needs more information and explanation (explanation here  http://www.sonderbooks.com/Nonfiction/gaslight_effect.html)

[Voyager]

Hi

I've posted a long rambling journal on the same lines and then read this thread.

This is the risk the MLCer runs in running, that time away from the marriage causes the LBS to start to see more clearly. When the rose coloured glasses fall off its a time of much soul searching and pain.

I think I had a period of this about a year in, and 2 years in it came around again and this time its settled and formed very clearly.

My h was and is a deeply flawed person, and these flaws were ever present but sometimes spouses don't see them, or see them and ignore them, or see them and feel that somehow they deserve on some level to have that kind of relationship and so put up with the behaviour because their own needs are very strong.

I think I fell into all three

But the important part is what you do with that knowledge as now it's known it can't be unknown. For a long time I thrashed about with it and tried to deny, then thrashed about and felt deep anger.
But it helped me to look at myself more clearly too and ask hard questions of myself about why I allowed myself to behave in the way I did, because a lot of what I did enabled him to do what he did.

So that for a while made me very down on myself, but after a long time of soul searching chose to accept the issues in myself and then work on them and have compassion for them. Now I can feel compassion for my h but I also know that I could never compromise my new self by falling back into the old script.

 What that means for my standing I don't know, but right now the work in progress is purely on myself, to finally feel on safe ground as someone who has healed and recovered from a life changing experience.

 My h must go on with his life and possibly never make use of his time to understand himself more. I think that would be sad for him, but I can't go any further on that journey with him.


Much love. xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[missybuddha]

Thanks to whoever merged these.
 Voyager I relate so much to  what you say
"My h was and is a deeply flawed person, and these flaws were ever present but sometimes spouses don't see them, or see them and ignore them, or see them and feel that somehow they deserve on some level to have that kind of relationship and so put up with the behaviour because their own needs are very strong."
 Way back in May whilst on Trial Sep and kind of reconnecting,  (but with hindsight not, not really, not enough but I was in denial and was still if fix-this-mode, go -along with it, letting h lead when I should have been firm) I said to h I needed to work more before he moved back. I should have listened to myself. I was not ready and was so eager to please, try, that I was not ready and it all went tits up. or rather it followed it's course.

I am not ready to be in any R at the moment let alone my M so am working on myself , getting insight reflecting, had 3/6 IC sessions and am milking this for all it is worth.
Funnily enough I'm fine alone, yes I miss h but not as he has been recently. I miss my friend and lover. but I function v well without him , I'm very much "my own person". I don't take this (yet) as being that we were not "meant"  to be together or stuff like that. For me it's about maintaining this level of independence WHILST in a R. or M . or both.

Edit - "Thanks to whoever merged these. "  - Your welcome