[Was your MLCer depressed or stressed in the run up to his/ her MLC?]

Was your MLCer depressed or stressed in the run up to his/ her MLC?

Yes, depressed.

5 (12.8%)

Yes, stressed

3 (7.7%)

Severely stressed to the point of burnout, which includes depression

15 (38.5%)

Yes, stressed and depressed

15 (38.5%)

No, neither stressed nor depressed

1 (2.6%)

Total Members Voted: 39

Voting closed: August 31, 2016, 04:04:04 PM

[Mermaid]

So, let's discuss what we know so far, and start with a definition from RRR:

A normal life event—midlife transition—that has escalated to crisis levels of emotional and mental turmoil. Denial and attempts to avoid the transition yield crisis which manifests through avoidance, regression and depression and in the context of a marriage often includes infidelity and separation. MLCers react overtly with outward destruction; whether intentional or not, an MLCer hurts other people in significant ways

So... by definition, this emotional and mental turmoil is a reaction to an exogenous event... A normal life event. Of course it will have a neurological corollary. A crisis means stress, depression or burnout ( a particular type of work-related stress, according to the Maslach inventory.) Almost everyone in our poll acknowledged stress, depression our burnout. The reaction can be understood as an adaptive mechanism to perceived stress. We've been looking at what these mechanisms are, and how they explain some reactions like apparent personality changes and lack of empathy, confused thinking, etc. I suppose osb can explain the neurology of this better than I can.

On the other hand, yes, our brains are different. Our genetics are different, and our adaptive mechanisms vary according to our learned resources. I've cited research that shows how differently people react to stress and depression. It's not just down to our DNA, but to our life path, emotional resources.

There is nothing in our neurological development which happens without social context, starting with very early social interaction, such as crying or smiling. So Piaget's developmental stages, which correspond to approximate periods of neurological reorganisation, are now seen as depending on social context.

So it is with our MLCer. Whatever reactions they have to the outside world will depend on resources, social and emotional history, opportunities and restraints. There's always an interaction. There is always a self, or selves, to be renegotiated.

On the other hand, the stress they feel will have neurological consequences beyond what they, or we, can cognitively understand. It's so important for our understanding to work out what they are.

[Mermaid]

Like seeing my H have real hot flashes?   

If you've seen that, Thunder, that sounds like evidence rather than belief or opinion.

Of course we know that our perceptions here are subjective (hard to get away from that), but it's as good as we can get here.

[Mermaid]

Here's a piece of anecdotal evidence about my H's case that might be interesting.

 When he was at the beginning of his MLC, just before BD, actually, he had transient global amnesia after doing physical effort on a hot day. He was unable to form new memories for about 10-12 hours, which meant he asked the same questions over and over, was very confused, and could not do anything by himself which required new learning. So he went to hospital and had a brain scan, and they found nothing wrong. The same thing happened about a year later, mid MLC. For a while I thought it was related to his MLC, but Actually problem was metabolic, and caused by statins for blood pressure. It's well documented now that statins could do this. It lasts for a few hours, and leaves no long term effects.

The link between MLC and statins? None.

The interest here? My H had a complete neurological examination and was normal, apart from temporary confusion and memory loss.

[Velika]

The link between MLC and statins? None.

Has this been studied? How can we assume there is none if not?

The interest here? My H had a complete neurological examination and was normal, apart from temporary confusion and memory loss.

What is a complete neurological exam? Is this a brain scan? An MRI? What did it measure?

Very interesting on the timing of these events.

Also, since the topic of empathy came up, very low heart rate and blood pressure is a physical marker of sociopathy. So who knows, perhaps there is a connection between heart rate and ability to empathize etc.

[Mermaid]

The link between MLC and statins? None.

Has this been studied? How can we assume there is none if not?

I think we can assume it hasn't been studied, as MLC studies focus on psychological reactions! Unless there are other MLCers out there who took statins?

However, studies have found the stress is associated with increased cholesterol. So stressed people are more likely than average to take statins. A quick search tuned up dozens of pieces of research, including this:
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=620270

There is research about the effect of statins. Here's one piece: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1592/phco.29.7.800/abstract

Not everyone who has high cholesterol and takes statins is stressed. But stressed people may take statins and other medication. TGA from statins is episodic and lasts less than a day.

The interest here? My H had a complete neurological examination and was normal, apart from temporary confusion and memory loss.

What is a complete neurological exam? Is this a brain scan? An MRI? What did it measure?

He had a brain scan plus a set of other neurological tests. You can see a description here https://meded.ucsd.edu/clinicalmed/neuro2.htm

Very interesting on the timing of these events.

Yes, I thought so at first. But then my H stopped taking the statins when he realized the association, had no more TGA episodes, but continued in crisis mode for some years. He's still depressed, because he's not living the life he wants, or doing what he wants in work.

Also, since the topic of empathy came up, very low heart rate and blood pressure is a physical marker of sociopathy. So who knows, perhaps there is a connection between heart rate and ability to empathize etc.

I understand that you're looking for associations. But in the case of low heart rate and BP, these are signs of many things, mostly extreme health. Most athletes have low BP/resting heart rate.
On an earlier thread I posted a link about reduced empathy (in normal, non psychopaths) when stressed and also when very comfortable.

[Mermaid]

One more thing; my MLCer turned into a talker at ML. He's normally very quiet, and talks little (too little) about his feelings, like many men who end up stressed.

At ML, he told me details of his life I'd never heard before, along with a lot of emotions which seemed to bubble up from his subconscious. He treated me like his psychologist, actually, but seemed to have little awareness of my needs and feelings (loss of empathy). So, I got a lot of insight, because I listened actively, without showing my feelings when he was talking in this mode. (I did tell him what I thought at other times, and did everything we're advised not to do too... I'm human!)

It gave me a strong insight into his mind; his confusion, anguish, resentments, hopes, dreams... Notably, his sense of future was severely impaired. This, as people have found elsewhere, is a symptom of stress, as is the confusion.

He felt trapped by his life, and blamed me for it. He even told me he hated me (something he has no memory of now), and said the biggest mistake in his life was walking down the aisle with me. But he talked about all his life experiences and how they affected him, including going to military school age 9, his mother's attitude to him, his relationship and regrets with his father, who was violently killed.

I'd known for some years that he'd felt trapped and was stressed and unhappy. A lot of his stress reactions were how he reacted to life, and most certainly his perfectionist personality. So MLC was not a sudden event in his case.

He did change... But his changes were associated with escaping, with OW, his mirror narcisist, feeling happy in his escape. He did seem to have a lot of empathy for her, protecting her.

On the other hand, he was a boomerang. And actually I realized that he was dependent on me, emotionally, something he also blamed me for, as if I'd done it on purpose. When he had his second TGA episode, it wasn't OW he wanted, but me. When his TGA was over, he was off again. The best thing I did was to tell him to go, if he wanted to go. And to be independent myself. He realized what he wanted.

I'm not saying that all cases are like mine. I don't think all MLC is alike, with one pathway, although they share certain characteristics. However, I do have pretty good insight into what happened to my H. It clearly started with stress, which was greater because of his personality. He is who he is because of his development in the social world, so I cannot accept, in his case, that there was a unique neurological event in his case. I know there was not, but I also know that a person is not a fully aware, rational being, and the neurology of stress, meds, etc. has its effect.

If there are people here who, for any reason, find that there is no precursor, and that the flip is sudden, unexpected, and unexplainable in any other than a pure neurological event, that just goes to show how different all these cases are.

By the way, it might be interesting for some of you to read about the neuroscience of personality. It shows how a person develops neurologically as an adaptive response to the social world.

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~cdeyoung/Pubs/DeYoung_2010_personality_neuroscience_SPPC.pdf

[Hmmm]

Fascinating stuff. Mine also said he hated me early on and we should never have married. That he wouldn't even talk to me if we met in a bar. No empathy, memory loss etc. He's still burnt out and suicidal-thinks he's been like this his whole life. Also says he's always hated sex (he hasn't!)

Yet the last two times he's visited the kids...we've ended up going to gigs together.

X

[Mermaid]

Fascinating stuff. Mine also said he hated me early on and we should never have married. That he wouldn't even talk to me if we met in a bar. No empathy, memory loss etc. He's still burnt out and suicidal-thinks he's been like this his whole life. Also says he's always hated sex (he hasn't!)

Yet the last two times he's visited the kids...we've ended up going to gigs together.

There's often lots of projection, strong emotions, desire to escape/avoid what they feel is stressful for them. In my case, he boomeranged right back, and now doesn't remember (or admit to) leaving, or hating me.

I'm not saying your case will be like mine, but just saying it can happen. Hope without expectations.

Take care, and enjoy those boomerang moments for what they are. Xxxx

[Mermaid]

Bumping this up in case anyone wants to vote before voting ends tomorrow.

Mx

[Anjae]

Mermaid, the poll is closed.

Would you like to post some thoughts/conclusion, before the thread being archived?