[Was your MLCer depressed or stressed in the run up to his/ her MLC?]

Was your MLCer depressed or stressed in the run up to his/ her MLC?

Yes, depressed.

5 (12.8%)

Yes, stressed

3 (7.7%)

Severely stressed to the point of burnout, which includes depression

15 (38.5%)

Yes, stressed and depressed

15 (38.5%)

No, neither stressed nor depressed

1 (2.6%)

Total Members Voted: 39

Voting closed: August 31, 2016, 04:04:04 PM

[Anjae]

It may not be, but I was diagnosed with burnout 3 times and the cause was physical and mental exhaustion. Either all my doctors (including GPs, pshychiatris and neurologists) were wrong, or something is being missed. Maybe in translation? I was not diagnosed with any of the 3 things on the list, even if, of course, emotional exhaustion  was present because if physical and mental exhaustion is present, so is emotional one.

It end ups being very similar/the same thing as stress and/or depression and/or exhaustion. It looks a bit different in the 3 points list, but very much the same in the 12 points list. All those 3 things are present in depression, they can be present in stress, and at least two can, and often are, present in exhaustion. Many times the 3 are present in exhaustion.

I don't thing those items allow to a very good way of differentiate, since those items also show in depression.

I did not went to hospital, stayed home, but was under medical supervision, so was Mr J the times before BD.

Depression and exhaustion are also on a scale. Everything is. But for me the problem is that I really see no difference between the burnout items and the depression ones. They are the same thing.

Essentially, and osb has also been talking a lot about it, high energy MLCers are like addicts. They need their fix, they will run for more and more and more. They are depressed, but all those amazing chemicals/hormones they have become addicted to are masking it. For the most part, at least. Because when they have downs, they go to a very dark place.

An easy way of understanding it is to think about bipolar, with its manic highs and its deep lows (bipolar, of course, also is on a scale). Or to think what happens when we have a small, lets say, ache in a knee of hip, when we start walking (or running) we become warmer, adrenaline kicks in and the pain disappears. When we stop walking (or running) and cool down, the adrenaline lowers and we fell the pain again.

Yes, we can gain energy from changing our context. The excitement will raise a series of hormones and other things, the person will feel energy. Well, we know high energy MLCers need to keep doing things to be able to function, otherwise they go into overt depression. The problem is, those levels of energy are not sustainable. They will cause serious damage. It does not take long for a high energy MLCer to look old, tired and plain awful.

I can be energised both by being with people or on my own. It depends, of the people/type of situation. I can pretty much feel the energy level rise and I will be all happy and invigorated. However, then, I will need time on my own. The energy level will not last for the next day. The next day I need alone time. Either that, or do what I did after BD, going out and about non stop. Of course now I can no longer do that, I do not have that initial energy rush to go with, and I do end up feeling tired.

Introvert and extrovert to me have more to do on how people process things that with being, or not being, social. I am social, but I am also someone who loves to be alone. The real Mr J is similar to me. We had no lack of social life, always attending concerts, film festivals, exhibitions, going out to dance, dinners at friends houses, etc. But we need to keep our house for ourselves, we need it to be our space. We both liked the level of social life we had.

As you have seen on the link Kikki posted about depression, depression has to do with the  hippocampus (among other things in the brain, it is not just that). It is not related to personality. Memory, in case anyone is wondering, also pertains to the brain domain. There are many different types of memory, and different typed of brain areas used. http://www.human-memory.net/brain_parts.html

If the marriage/spouse was the problem, once they leave and have OW/OM they should had become happy. They don't. So, being unhappy in the marriage is not the reason. When MLCers say they are unhappy in the marriage it is the depression talking.

Many of us, including myself, have faced severe stress and depression, and not engaged in escapist behaviors

As you have said, there are levels, and people aren't all affected the same way by the same thing. Stress and depression are enough to explain what we see. It is all very simple to explain with neurobiology/neuroscience/biology. X affects Z, that in turns has reaction R, which will lead to T. The effects of stress and/or depression are clearly explained in neurobiology/neuroscience. Also in endocrinology.

And you do not know how you will react if stress and depression hit you on a level that leads you into crisis, do you? No one knows. Not even those who have previously suffered depression and/or stress.

Escapist behaviors are clearly a defense mechanism, meaning that they cannot face dealing with their lives by discussion/negotiation or minor changes.

Many of us had spouses who were totally able to to face life dealing with discussion/negotiating or minor (or huge) issues. The other thing is some of us here have had our own MLC. I think we know how we are, were before crisis, and during crisis. As a general rule, we will say that we were super stressed and there was also depression (often covert).

Personality disorders do not show all of a sudden when people are in their 30s, 40s, 50s or 60s. They show in adolescence, often earlier, the latter until very early adulthood. A person with a personality disorder is easy to spot and is not capable of hiding it. Let alone for decades and from their spouse.

Hormonal changes could be a good reason for MLC or any sort of crisis. Crisis are not uncommon in adolescence and for peri-menopausal women, people with thyroid issues, etc. But that would also but, stress in the hormone cortisol, so, stress is in itself an hormonal change.

Depression also affects several chemicals and hormones (hormones, by the way, are chemicals, but to make it easy, one usually says hormones when referring to certain chemicals).

I don't give much relevance to the FOO issues. Those alone would not lead anyone into crisis. In fact, they hadn't for decades, have they? The crisis mode only arises if there is a certain degree of stress and depression (the degree would be different for each person, but it is above a normal level), that becomes out of hand.

there is a coping style, which is inevitably learnt,...

Then, how does one explain that many were perfectly capable of coping, often with extremely difficult things, without any problem? I think the thing is, every human has a breaking/burnout/stress limit point. It is different for every human, but we all have it. And our limit at 20 may be higher than our limit at 30, 40, 50, or the other way round. When that point is reached, a crisis will follow. Either that or a total crash.

Anyway, stress, depression, burnout, hormonal issues, all those can be treated. My view is that we are all (LBS & MLCs) enduring something that has treatment/solution. Much I think of it, I cannot see the point of MLC, not even of my own. I just think mine happened because, at BD, I was not treated and advised the way I should had been.

[Anjae]

Mermaid, I have been watching the Olympics. Which reminds me that Michael Phelps had a depression, start to behave like a fool, and was DUI twice.

“He had no idea what to do with the rest of his life. It made me feel terrible. I remember one day I said: ‘Michael, you have all the money that anybody your age could ever want or need; you have a profound influence in the world; you have free time — and you’re the most miserable person I know. What’s up with that?” This are the words of Phelps long time coach, Bob Bowman. http://www.sportskeeda.com/swimming/depression-rehab-and-becoming-a-father-the-other-side-of-michael-phelps-journey-from-2012-to-2016-rio-olympics

Phelps is not a normal person. Not even in Olympic normal. He did things (I'm writting did because this time he will most likely retire for good. He was not able to won the 100m butterfly yesterday; and the previous day he was visibly tired) no other athlete as done so far. Yet, he also felt victim of depression. If Phelps can get dive (pun intended) into depression, I think us, mere mortals are certainly not above it in any way or fashion.

What I am trying to say is that the best, most drive, most focus, most hard working, extraordinary person on earth can have depression. Or stress. Or burnout. Phelps limits are not ours, we would never be capable of his features, yet, he could not escape falling into the darkness.

[Roma]

I never knew 'burnout' was an actual medical diagnosis. Always thought it was just a term people used. Maybe in different countries it's used differently?

[Mermaid]

I was diagnosed with burnout 3 times and the cause was physical and mental exhaustion. Either all my doctors (including GPs, pshychiatris and neurologists) were wrong, or something is being missed. Maybe in translation?

Perhaps... Did they use the word burnout or esgotamento? I've noticed that doctors tend to use words that will be accepted.

But Anjae, I'm shocked and amazed! Three burnouts? How did you manage that? How did you recover?

It end ups being very similar/the same thing as stress and/or depression and/or exhaustion. It looks a bit different in the 3 points list, but very much the same in the 12 points list. All those 3 things are present in depression, they can be present in stress, and at least two can, and often are, present in exhaustion. Many times the 3 are present in exhaustion.

Not always, but this difficulty in differentiating aspects of some types of depression is a criticism of burnout. I haven't added a full description here of the three categories, which can be seen better here: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Christina_Maslach/publication/277816643_The_Maslach_Burnout_Inventory_Manual/links/5574dbd708aeb6d8c01946d7.pdf

Essentially, and osb has also been talking a lot about it, high energy MLCers are like addicts.

Yup... But why these behaviors, not others? We all have our obsessions, in the Neolimbic brain, although they are hidden from us. Yet we don't have MLC. We all have the possibility of having drug addictions too. Yet not everyone does, even if we take addictive substances. It's not only personality traits which affect addiction, but basic attitudes from childhood like trust and existential security.

Introvert and extrovert to me have more to do on how people process things that with being, or not being, social. I am social, but I am also someone who loves to be alone. The real Mr J is similar to me.

That's pretty much true... Introversion /extroversion is defined as how you gain your energy. We're all a mix. Introverts need more time by themselves, but can be very sociable.

As you have seen on the link Kikki posted about depression, depression has to do with the  hippocampus (among other things in the brain, it is not just that). It is not related to personality.

Ok, every thought and feeling, all learning, actions, etc. have a place in the brain. Without this, they wouldn't exist. It's a basic mechanism of brain function, and a deep issue of the mind body issue. However, the different regions interreact with each other, and develop, most essentially, in social context, without which there is no brain development. And research shows, consistently, that personality affects how people react to stressors. Here's an example: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022395612000350

If the marriage/spouse was the problem, once they leave and have OW/OM they should had become happy. They don't. So, being unhappy in the marriage is not the reason. When MLCers say they are unhappy in the marriage it is the depression talking.

Ah! I know I was being provocative with this. We do know that first marriages fail and lower rates than second marriages. So some people either make bad choices, don't know how to adjust to marriage, or have unrealistic expectations of marriage. I added this provocation because sometimes marriages end because of unhappiness, and subsequent marriages do work. We don't know all the cases here, and can't guarantee that they're all about MLC.
Apart from that, I agree that our confused MLCers won't find happiness in false projections.

Many of us, including myself, have faced severe stress and depression, and not engaged in escapist behaviors

As you have said, there are levels, and people aren't all affected the same way by the same thing. Stress and depression are enough to explain what we see. It is all very simple to explain with neurobiology/neuroscience/biology. X affects Z, that in turns has reaction R, which will lead to T. The effects of stress and/or depression are clearly explained in neurobiology/neuroscience. Also in endocrinology.

Even neurologists and biologists recognize the role of social context for at least 50% of behaviour!

And you do not know how you will react if stress and depression hit you on a level that leads you into crisis, do you? No one knows. Not even those who have previously suffered depression and/or stress.

This is true. We don't know. On the other hand, not all our MLCers have faced extreme stress. Most importantly, they face aspects of their lives that they can't accept, which becomes stressful.

Personality disorders do not show all of a sudden when people are in their 30s, 40s, 50s or 60s. They show in adolescence, often earlier, the latter until very early adulthood. A person with a personality disorder is easy to spot and is not capable of hiding it. Let alone for decades and from their spouse.

Yes, it's true they don't appear but no, they're not always easy to spot, even for trained psychologists. We're not talking about extreme PDs, in most cases, but several people have had a realization that their spouse is on the unhealthy side of the scale.

Depression also affects several chemicals and hormones (hormones, by the way, are chemicals, but to make it easy, one usually says hormones when referring to certain chemicals).

  I guess most of us know this, but thank you for the reminder in case there is anyone out there with any doubt.

I don't give much relevance to the FOO issues. Those alone would not lead anyone into crisis. In fact, they hadn't for decades, have they? The crisis mode only arises if there is a certain degree of stress and depression (the degree would be different for each person, but it is above a normal level), that becomes out of hand.

Isn't that the point? Coping styles are learnt, and reactions to stressors are based on personality, which develops in social context. There's no doubt that FOO has significant effect on behaviour, and this can be felt decades later. There's a lot of science in this, too much to even begin here.

there is a coping style, which is inevitably learnt,...

Then, how does one explain that many were perfectly capable of coping, often with extremely difficult things, without any problem? .....My view is that we are all (LBS & MLCs) enduring something that has treatment/solution. Much I think of it, I cannot see the point of MLC, not even of my own. I just think mine happened because, at BD, I was not treated and advised the way I should had been.

Do you mean therapy, or pills? Therapy is about the person exploring aspects of themselves. I don't think there is a magic pill for MLC, like there is no magic pill for depression. There are antidepressants, but they're no good if the source of depression isn't removed. This is obvious, I think, for the most hardened neuroscientist.

The reason people stop being able to cope vary hugely. Tipping point theories have something going for them. We can all cope until we can't. The point of tolerance varies hugely. Haven't we all had little moments of coping, them snap? I wouldn't blame that on my brain, as if it were an organ separated from me!

My H was physically ill, depressed, burnt out, stressed, but his crisis was existential and emotional. He continued working. Suddenly OW seemed to present a way out. I can't be sure that she was the tipping point. But he eventually seemed to stop blaming me, and realized he wanted me. He still hadn't resolved his need to change his lifestyle. He's still depressed, fed up with life. Of course this registers in his hippocampus, but the stressor is exogenous and also attitudinal.

[Mermaid]

I never knew 'burnout' was an actual medical diagnosis. Always thought it was just a term people used. Maybe in different countries it's used differently?

Yes, it is, though it does vary from country to country. Diagnoses also have cultural contexts!

Anjae, interesting about Phelps, he is extraordinary, but actually people who push themselves to their limits already have a very specific psychology, including many perfectionists, etc. There's a reason why they need so desperately to succeed. People who are comfortable with themselves and their lives are more rarely so driven.

[Velika]

I find this so interesting and had some questions.

1. What are common physical traits of MLC? Is it shark eyes? Rapid aging? I think that this is key to discovering at least some of neurological aspect.

2. What are highly typical quirks of MLC? Again, I think this may hold key to neurological aspect.

3. When the MLCer meets the OW/OM, do they know it will end up being a physical affair? I don't mean was it love at first sight, but it is common to report affair down/odd choice on this forum. Yet many MLCers have known this person for years. Obviously they are not like someone who suddenly decides to leave family for someone they only just met.

4. Is it true that MLCer is horrified by choice of OM/OW later later? I have read this on the site, but if many knew beforehand would that not necessarily be true?

5. Why does MLCer project so much anger/hatred/revenge into spouse? I agree with Anjae it seems like many here are not happy with OW/OM but remain angry with LBS. Why? (WHY?😭) In my own case for example there are many people my husband could obviously attribute his anger to besides me.

6. What makes this change so very sudden? If the MLCer is not true narcopath/NPD/BPD it seems like they could not carry on convincing charade for very long. What is likely length of plan to leave?

[Mermaid]

I find this so interesting and had some questions.

1. What are common physical traits of MLC? Is it shark eyes? Rapid aging? I think that this is key to discovering at least some of neurological aspect.

People often report dead eyes. From depression, perhaps? Shark eyes sounds like evasiveness, if they're feeling guilty. But it's not the key to discovering a neurological aspect. The neurology reflects behaviour, feelings, which come from personality, social world, attitudes.

2. What are highly typical quirks of MLC? Again, I think this may hold key to neurological aspect.

These are described in a lot of posts, but vary hugely. MLC is unlikely to be caused by a neurological event, like most social behaviour. There is always a neurological correspondence in all thoughts, feelings, personality and behaviour, which develop in social context. There is no evidence whatsoever, despite musings here, that MLC is a disease that starts in the brain, like an anurism or a stroke!!! It's so clearly not!

3. When the MLCer meets the OW/OM, do they know it will end up being a physical affair? I don't mean was it love at first sight, but it is common to report affair down/odd choice on this forum. Yet many MLCers have known this person for years. Obviously they are not like someone who suddenly decides to leave family for someone they only just met.

  Some are affair downs, some are mirroring of their ideal opposite sex selves. Some leave with people they've only just met. Sometimes they " fall in love", which is not the same as loving someone different chemical and social process). No one knows what and when they decide, and there's no reason to think they're all the same.

4. Is it true that MLCer is horrified by choice of OM/OW later later? I have read this on the site, but if many knew beforehand would that not necessarily be true?

some are later ashamed, some are not.

5. Why does MLCer project so much anger/hatred/revenge into spouse? I agree with Anjae it seems like many here are not happy with OW/OM but remain angry with LBS. Why? (WHY?😭) In my own case for example there are many people my husband could obviously attribute his anger to besides me.

They are unhappy with themselves, but can't face this or don't understand it. They feel unhappy, so project that on the person nearest them. We don't have full access to our unconscious brain.

6. What makes this change so very sudden? If the MLCer is not true narcopath/NPD/BPD it seems like they could not carry on convincing charade for very long. What is likely length of plan to leave?

Some changes are sudden, some are not. Sudden changes are like getting to tipping point, when suddenly they can't cope with their lives (the last straw breaks the camel's back), or the presence of OW/OM means they feel there's a better life out there, rather than fixing their existing one.

Time varies, sometimes days, months, years... Some don't return, I'm afraid. That's why it's so important to GAL and detach. Take care. Hope without expectations! Xxx

[Velika]

I don't think shark eyes are evasive. They look very flat. I am very dim since about April and no contact since May, but before that I saw a very strange look that reminded me of dementia. I saw this over and over again. For me, and because this is so commonly reported, I think this is a clue that something neurological has happened.

Some quirks that I have noticed or read include leaving with almost nothing, dressing like a younger person, talking like a teenager, and fantasy thinking about the future. This seems to happen across the board. Again I feel this might indicate neurological. I think if this were simply crisis of identity it wouldn't so consistently be like a teenager. (For example it doesn't seem like MLCers are suddenly passionate about nautical history, genealogy, or gardening or other areas of interest typically pursued by older adults.) Leading up to the crisis my husband exercised more and dressed nicer. These seem like positive moves. But once the "break" occurred this quickly devolved into gaining weight and styling his hair like a teen, wearing too-young, too-tight clothes. I feel this is also a little like dementia, like someone who doesn't really know what period of their lives they are living in.

Anyhow, I do think that whatever this is affects parts of brain related to decision making, personality, and impulse control. I think that again at a certain point the person may be on a verge of MLT, but something pushes them into MLC and whatever that is becomes out of control and ruled by subconscious/impulses/neurological forces. I think this is why for many it closely resembles a mental illness.

From what I have read and observed, number one trait of MLC is lack of empathy. I see this consistently. In fact, in some ways I see this as a person's sudden inability to empathize. I read elsewhere that it was like watching an ordinary person turn into a sociopath. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic, it really does often feel this way.

My husband is a very extreme MLCer and has family history of MLC, mental illness, and depression so I may be more inclined to see it this way than someone observing a milder MLC with inlaws who are just as bewildered etc.

[Shocked]

This is an interesting discussion!!! My stbx has that look. I really noticed it more a couple of months ago. He looked blank and like there wasn't too much thinking going on. He spends a lot of time looking at social media and playing games like angry birds. I haven't spent much time with him in the last several months since he is a vanisher and in replay. He does drink a lot, took up smoking, move to trending area with all new furniture. He wants to be about 23 again. He married for the first time at 21. It lasted 4 years. It seems to me he regrets those years that he didn't get to be carefree and cool after college.
Does anyone think the time they lock themselves in is about what they regret or the time they enjoyed the most?

[Ready2Transform]

I don't think shark eyes are evasive. They look very flat. I am very dim since about April and no contact since May, but before that I saw a very strange look that reminded me of dementia. I saw this over and over again. For me, and because this is so commonly reported, I think this is a clue that something neurological has happened.

This is where it's hard to develop one solid set of "traits" for MLC (and I don't actually believe it matters if we do or don't). We are not all trained at the same "school of MLC"; what one person's 'shark eyes' is will by definition not be the same as another LBS's interpretation. Without pictures to compare to of what we mean, we can only go by the power of each others' words to correlate things, and in many cases, we may be discussing two completely different things. Taking those concepts and running with them, then, leads us on a fruitless chase for answers.

I think I know what Velika means by shark eyes. For mine, his pupils dilated larger and the blue washed out (another LBS, after seeing a picture, said she would have never guessed him to be blue eyed). It's hard to describe more physical attributes of it; he just literally had a different face suddenly, and has maintained it. Only a few times, early on, did I see his "old face". It wasn't because he loved me again or his personality changed. Velika and I have the similarity that our spouses were on or discontinued (apologies, V, I can't remember if you said yours stopped taking them) mood altering drugs around the time these traits appeared. That is certainly not the case for everyone here and "shark eyes" really may be just a display of emotion or guilt that is foreign.

All we can do is interpret to the best of our abilities what we went through and observed and try to reconcile that. Without a willing patient, it's so hard to test. If only!