[Was your MLCer depressed or stressed in the run up to his/ her MLC?]

Was your MLCer depressed or stressed in the run up to his/ her MLC?

Yes, depressed.

5 (12.8%)

Yes, stressed

3 (7.7%)

Severely stressed to the point of burnout, which includes depression

15 (38.5%)

Yes, stressed and depressed

15 (38.5%)

No, neither stressed nor depressed

1 (2.6%)

Total Members Voted: 39

Voting closed: August 31, 2016, 04:04:04 PM

[Roma]

My culture is one that teaches us not to complain, find solutions and talk about that instead. So I really don't know if there were any stress or depression before hand.

He started out working way too many hours overtime, so I knew there was something going on in his mind.

I saw more anxiety/restlessness than anything yet that could be so many things.

So I voted neither stress or depression , because I really just don't know for sure.

[Thunder]

I almost did the same, EL.  But I did see some depression at times but chalked it up to him working too much.   

[superdog]

I voted for stressed only. I am afraid my husband was a very lazy man so he would never burn himself out on anything !!

My h was becoming excessively intolerant of the children, to the point of rough handling them when they were only 4 years old. He was very stressed anywhere near them. That would be exactly around his 40th birthday too.

My h admitted early on that he resented the children and wished he never had them. So they are inextricably linked to his crisis and the stress he was showing.  There is more to this obviously but they were the main cause of his stress.

Sd

[osb]

I voted stressed to burnout, plus depressed; but my H would disagree (despite also being an MD, and perfectly familiar with DSM-V, he won't cop to depression cuz real men don't do that ). Stress at work, in an emergency room, is a sine qua non. There were also a number of inquests, some of which involved my H - depositions, court rooms, stress... H felt undervalued and that he had achieved nothing in his life. H was also spitting nails angry, for quite a few years; having difficulty maintaining collegial relationships at work, no positive feeling for his patients or co-workers, wanted to leave medicine and become a mountain guide; anhedonic, obsessive compulsive, unable to feel anything except anger. High energy replay activities - body burned out, H became overtly depressed, and BD came shortly after.

Maslach burnout inventory, or MBI, is a specific tool to measure stress specifically as the result of work, and is recognized as a valid reason for taking sick leave in a number of countries. It's recognizes as a valid scale, with internal and external reliability. The MBI Surveys address three general scales:

1. Emotional exhaustion measures feelings of being emotionally overextended and exhausted by one's work
2. Depersonalization measures an unfeeling and impersonal response toward recipients of one's service, care treatment, or instruction. This includes "anhedonia", which is a loss of the ability to feel.
3. Personal accomplishment measures feelings of competence and successful achievement in one's work

Some writers propose 12 stages of burnout, some 4, some 3. In the following, note stages 6-11. Does it look familiar?
1. The Compulsion to Prove Oneself; demonstrating worth obsessively; tends to hit the best employees, those with enthusiasm who accept responsibility readily.
2. Working Harder; an inability to switch off.
3. Neglecting Their Needs; erratic sleeping, eating disrupted, lack of social interaction.
4. Displacement of Conflicts; problems are dismissed, we may feel threatened, panicky and jittery.
5. Revision of Values; values are skewed, friends and family dismissed, hobbies seen as irrelevant, work is only focus.
6. Denial of Emerging Problems; intolerance, perceiving collaborators as stupid, lazy, demanding, or undisciplined, social contacts harder; cynicism, aggression; problems are viewed as caused by time pressure and work, not because of life changes.
7. Withdrawal; social life small or non-existent, need to feel relief from stress, alcohol/drugs.
8. Odd Behavioural Changes; changes in behaviour obvious, friends and family concerned.
9. Depersonalization; seeing neither self nor others as valuable, and no longer perceive own needs.
10. Inner Emptiness; feeling empty inside and to overcome this, look for activity such as overeating, sex, alcohol, or drugs; activities are often exaggerated.
11. Depression; feeling lost and unsure, exhausted, future feels bleak and dark.
12. Burnout Syndrome; can include total mental and physical collapse; time for full medical attention.

Thank you Mermaid, this is meticulous. My H went through most of these stages - initially relating to his work, but then displaced to mountain climbing, which became the only measure by which H would validate himself (having mentally abandoned his career - you think I'm a bad doctor, to hell with you, I'm a climber!).  He was still working madly, piling shifts on top of shifts; any time H had a few days off, he was off to the mountains. Taking lethal risks, trying to fit himself into an exclusive climbing community (medicine is, I suppose, also an exclusive community; but one that he had written off by then), because per H, "that's the only place I can feel anything!". And inevitably, his body failed him. Unmasked the crisis.

Was this burn-out? Or merely overwhelmed and inarticulate? Were the rage, anhedonia and OCD manifestations of clinical depression? I feel so (and fwiw despite academic controversies, I do believe in the imbalanced neurotransmission theory of depression, but can't see how one simply fixes it by increasing total body serotonin levels - it's more complicated than that). I do think H's more and more frequent forays into high adrenalin / endorphin territory were attempts to self-medicate the depression - a clear pattern of chasing the dragon. This part, H does agree with now, in hindsight.

[MourningDove]

My H admitted to being burned out - having been self-employed for 20 years. The firing of one long time client and the other not renewing a contract (they were OW's suggestion and I had a weird vibe from them - turned out to be shady, but then I didn't get a vote by then). He too, like some of the others took on a new career path, which I encouraged, but OW got credit for that and yet, now he is focusing on building a "home" and not really working too much.
He was stressed for sure - brought on by financial stresses and depressed, although he said he was not. He hid his depression well. Bad behaviors, etc.
None of which he could admit to.
I think for mine the burnout was one of the factors with the stress that brought on depression and subsequent MLC.
Almost like an emotional overload. Easier to escape than to cope with it.
Not working out so well for him at the moment - he is on a downward spiral and blames the marriage and everything but any of his own actions.

[Medusa]

I went with depressed and stressed. The catalyst for his crisis was retiring from the Marine Corps, which was his identity. He was stressed and depressed looking for a new job them stressed and depressed because he found no satisfaction from the new job (until OW showed up). For a couple of years, he seems to have felt his life had no meaning. Even before OW he was, in retrospect, spinning into replay with his fun seeking.

[Anjae]

I do understand that perhaps only choosing one gives the opportunity for better analysis of what we see.
I understand that, but these polls don't let us have multiple options, as far as I can see.

Theoretically, they should, since I can change it to 2 or more votes per user, but it does not show. It will be this way, then.

Esgotamento is not a just a psychological category, it is also a physical one. Esgotamento Nervoso/Mental is a psychological/emotional category. Esgotamento Físico is physical. Usually, the later involves the former.

Burnout is a severe form of Esgotamento (breakdown), a complete physical and mental one.

"Burnout Syndrome; can include total mental and physical collapse; time for full medical attention." this is what happened to me and Mr J twice before BD, and to me once after BD. It is not the same that I see in MLC, be it mine or Mr J's one.

That is the only point I identify with burnout, the remaining look like standard depression and/or stress ones to me. I don't manage to truly differentiate except for 12.

6 - To a point
7 - Not at all, if anything, Mr J social life increased 100 times and he was more outgoing and extroverted than ever in his life.
8 - Changes in behaviour obvious to me, friends didn't seem to find anything strange. Early on SIL advised Mr J to go see a doctor because of the depression and manic energy. She was concerned that, like herself and their mother, he could had thyroid problems. He refused. He may have thyroid problems, he may not. He never did the tests.
9 - The only person who had no worthy was me; OW1, MLC friends, Mr J, all were fabulous, fantastic and the most amazing people on earth according to what Mr J shouted at me. This is what he said, but what he wrote to OW1 tells me he felt totally down and lacked self-esteem.
10 - I was never told Mr J felt empty inside. But, again, by what he wrote to OW1, I would say yes. And he said he was depressed, depression comes with feeling empty inside.
11 - Mr J himself said he was depressed.

I still don't have a clue with what Mr J felt overwhelmed with. His reaon to leave was "I can only do this now". This being djing and now is actually 10 years down the road.
 
For me, it remains stress and depression. Since the only point in the list that differentiates burnout from depression and/or stress is number 12, and number 12 has not happend this time. If it had, Mr J would not be out there being all crazy and wild. He would had crashed into bed many years ago.

However, the existence of stress and depression in themselves are not enough to explain what we see as MLC. As xzycf mentioned, there seem to be several factors together, or as OP has said elsewhere, a perfect storm.

Why not? The points in the list seem more than enough to me to start a crisis of any sort.  Anyway, without the stress and depression there would had been no crisis, so the other issues really aren't that relevant. Without the stress and depression the issues would had been solved, the person would had not got into crisis mode.

I think it will depend of the type of depression, osb. But more recent studies and ideas think that just raising serotonin levels is not enough in many cases of depression. And it certainly does not work for everyone. Some people react very badly to SSRIs. Mr J is one of them. Plus, depression affects far more than only that neurotransmitter, so I find it strange that so many doctors still go with just trying to fix serotonin (or neurotransmitters) levels.

[trusting]

I said stressed and depressed. I do think that he had pushed himself to burnout.  Ironically, with the onset of replay, he amped up his constant busyness and it has continued for all these years.  HOW he not ended up collapsing, I will never understand.  He finally had enough MLC energy to switch jobs the past month because he was completely burnt out on his old one.  And of course, he is already barely keeping his head above water with the new one.  A good deal of that is self-imposed, though.  He is not good at balance and frankly never has been.  And I do not believe his MLC self can stop from being way too busy.  He has to keep running. 

About six years before BD, he had a breakdown of sorts with extreme anxiety, burnout, etc.  We were living in a different country then (and probably not coincidentally, it was where his family was living when I believe he experienced a lot of the wounding that has plagued him all these years) and so therapy in English was not easy to come by.  He was told by a counselor at that point that he needed to be seeing someone regularly.  He never did, and I wonder if he had at that point if he could have avoided an MLC. 

[MourningDove]

My H did complain he was burned out and I did see those signs, but in retrospect he too, amped up his business and put in insane hours. At that time we did not need the extra money. It was nice, but we were ok.
Of course now, he says I forced him to work those hours and I knew he was working to get new clients in order to release some older ones. Ummmm no, that would have been OW (EA at that time) he expressed that to. Not only that, there was no stopping him. Tried to. He was determined to work that hard and for awhile seemed to thrive on it. I was concerned he was going to have a crash and nervous breakdown then. What came has been just as bad, if not worse. Yet, there if you ask therapists, many acknowledge MLC as a real thing, but medically they say it is not acknowledged entirely. Components are labeled as other things. That said, most of us know, it doesn't matter, as with any therapy it won't work with anyone who doesn't think they have a problem. MLCers are notorious for deflecting and avoiding their inner demons. (My D once told me she wished her F would have a breakdown. I was a bit shocked, but she explained, maybe then he would get help

[Mermaid]

Wow! Almost everyone here has voted for stressed, depressed or burnout to some degree, except

My culture is one that teaches us not to complain, find solutions and talk about that instead. So I really don't know if there were any stress or depression before hand.
He started out working way too many hours overtime, so I knew there was something going on in his mind.
I saw more anxiety/restlessness than anything yet that could be so many things.
So I voted neither stress or depression , because I really just don't know for sure.

So the only person not to indicate any of these was likely to have had one of them though unexpressed.

In hindsight, this is not surprising. Stressed feelings about a situation which continues is in itself a crisis, and stress leads to a fight or flight response.

It's interesting to notice that the origin of the stress and the responses vary widely. This is also not surprising; what is stressful for one is not for another.

I voted for stressed only. I am afraid my husband was a very lazy man so he would never burn himself out on anything !!

My h was becoming excessively intolerant of the children, to the point of rough handling them when they were only 4 years old. He was very stressed anywhere near them. That would be exactly around his 40th birthday too.

My h admitted early on that he resented the children and wished he never had them. So they are inextricably linked to his crisis and the stress he was showing.  There is more to this obviously but they were the main cause of his stress

This is a very interesting case in point. Children are not so stressful for everyone, though they can be hard work and worrying. My own children are a source of my greatest joy. I'm sure I'm not alone.

So, there are obviously personality causes in stress and burnout. We must be careful BTW with our definitions of burnout. It necessarily involves three aspects:
1. depersonalization and anhedonia
2. Emotional exhaustion
3. Negative sense of achievement in work

So, it's not the same as depression or stress from other sources, exhaustion (physical or mental), and yes Nassau, I agree, it will continue or worsen until either the stressor is removed or ways are found to deal with it effectively.

Also, like so many other things, burnout is on a scale, not all or nothing. You can be high on the scale, but not at the point of hospitalization. My H, like so many, was diagnosed with burnout, but was not at that point, like xyzcf's, Mitzpah's & Trusting's spouses.

Anjae made the point about those with burnout being too exhausted for the high energy of MLCers. Perhaps this is one reason why we have low energy MLCers? What do you think?

Of course, energy is not just a category of physical exhaustion. We can gain energy from changing our context. As an extrovert, I know I can be down and lifeless until I get into a social event which gives me meaning. I feel energized as a result. My H typically feels energized by being by himself (so, by definition is an introvert). Strangely, and like so many MLCers, he seemed to change and wanted to go out all the time, especially if OW was there. This gave him energy, and he said it made him happy.

So... A hypothesis... Is this crisis partly to do with re-energizing themselves?

 Then there are the personality issues. Not everyone is as likely to suffer burnout, stress, depression, etc. When I researched this a little, I found loads of academic papers confirming this, for example:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3200/SOCP.146.1.31-50 

   
In the present study of 80 volunteer counselors who cared for terminally ill patients, the authors examined the relationship between burnout as measured by the Maslach Burnout Inventory (C. Maslach, S. E. Jackson, & M. P. Leiter, 1996) and the 5 basic (Big Five) personality factors (A. A. J. Hendriks, 1997): extraversion, agreeableness, conscientiousness, emotional stability, and intellect/autonomy. The results of 3 separate stepwise multiple regression analyses showed that (a) emotional exhaustion is uniquely predicted by emotional stability; (b) depersonalization is predicted by emotional stability, extraversion, and intellect/autonomy; and (c) personal accomplishment is predicted by extraversion and emotional stability. In addition, some of the basic personality factors moderated the relationship between relative number of negative experiences and burnout, suggesting that personality may help to protect against known risks of developing burnout in volunteer human service work.

Possibly it is true, Anjae, that without stress and depression, they'd never have gone into crisis mode. It's almost a truism that crisis happens as a result of a stressor! Nevertheless, this is still not enough to explain the types of crisis that they face, according to our perception of it. Many of us, including myself, have faced severe stress and depression, and not engaged in escapist behaviors, which is essentially what they do. Escapist behaviors are clearly a defense mechanism, meaning that they cannot face dealing with their lives by discussion/negotiation or minor changes. We all have some defense mechanisms, but some have more than others. This is related to FOO/ PD issues, which takes us back to early development of the self in social context.

On the other hand, it's also possible that there are also marriage issues. As much as we don't want to accept this, some spouses may be just unhappy. In some cases, their unhappiness is also related to their PD... Or even ours, although again, this is a question of where we all are on different spectrums of behaviour, not an all or nothing case.

The other issues mentioned by LBS on the old thread are trigger issues (such as death of a parent), medication, hormonal changes, neurological issues, external factors, FOO issues. Perhaps Erikson's midlife stage of generativity or stagnation are also factors when the issue is really about midlife crisis, versus other forms of stressed induced crisi.

In conclusion, It would seem that as well as a stressor, leading to fight or flight, there is a coping style, which is inevitably learnt, and other issues too. Comments?