[Penelope2018]

   Maybe you guys should have a message board or a discussion forum set aside for your personal disagreements. You guys have gone back and forth arguing with each other so much that the thread itself and it's purpose has been lost. I am a newbie and would have loved to hear someone else has lost it and said hateful things to their ex after BD. I wouldn't feel so much same and regret if I understood maybe someone else did it to and was able to grow and heal from it. THE FEELING OF HATE IS REAL ! not constructive but it is a definite issue for some Newbies !
Maybe call the disagreement thread the Sandbox

I would love to hear discussion and disagreement but when it consumes the topic by personal attacks and thread police taking over i'd rather watch Springer !

Oh yeah I blew up as best I could. I was staying in a guest room when I finally got hold of his phone and saw all their texts, pics and stuff. I actually had enough sense to record everything. He came looking for his phone shortly after and we got into a wrestling match because he kept trying to snatch it from me. His parents were in the next room and I didn't want them knowing our business so I couldn't really even scream at him. But I did say a lot of extremely hurtful things. I remember I was shaking I was so angry and I couldn't release it. I wanted to punch and kick him. I even thought about bashing him in the head with a weight that was in the room. Yeah, I was out there . I told him I was going to show his entire family his d*** pics I was gonna fly to her parent's home and show them her pictures. Later on, I wanted to send them to her family on FB! I never did it though. All he did was cry and say he was sorry over and over. At one point I was scared I may have caught an std or something, and demaned he get tested. He had even texted her while we laid in bed together! Nasty ass b*****d! It was crazy.

[OldPilot]

Everything in this thread comes down to detachment, the one basic thing that I advise every one when they arrive.

If you don't or can't do it then every other thing gets messed up.

The other person has an important role to play,
They are broken too and yet they might be interacting with
Our children.

So still can you detach?

If not why?

If you have an issue, how do you fix yourself if you are
So attached to it?

This is all I can say on everything at the moment.

[1trouble]

I am very saddened to see how this thread went after I went to bed...(it was 11pm in the UK)

It was suppose to be a safe place for discussion

Yes this is a discussion but frankly in some posts I see judgement and discouragement.....

And sadly, what I think some of you fail to realise is not everyone is so forthright.
There are some very fragile people on this board, just starting out their journey, there are others like BS who is dealing with so much crap in RL she needs a safe place here.....
There are others who read these boards and are frightened to post and when a thread goes, as this one has gone, I have no doubt they will not have the confidence to post.

I feel saddened the way this board continually seems to go this way lately and it is starting to discourage those who really need support to reach out and get it.

I partly expect this was going to happen, and that's why I opened the thread explaining why I felt it was necessary....If I had of left the name calling bit out, then I am sure something else would have derailed this thread because thats the way it seems to go lately.

When I read posts saying 'personally I never had a problem with the OW....' and "I realised its stopping my healing'...…

'and you should stop focusing on the OW'.....which I have seen on this hread and others ..
it really dismays me.....

Because those posts are, inadvertently, dismissing how some people are feeling OR making others feel somehow they are weak or inadequate for feeling how they do....have you ever thought of that?.................

There are some people who were gaslighted before BD there were some who were told they were never loved......and then saw their MLC walk out the door to be with the OW..........and for some (sadly) it has effected their self esteem.
There are some still being hounded by their OW or both their MLC'er and OW ....
(this has not been my experience BTW) but that doesnt stop me feeling huge compassion for those LBS's
I wanted to bring those all together here to talk about and share their experiences and to get support......

There are some, like BS, who have to hand their small children over to the OW ....there are some who have lost homes, livelihoods and everything in a blink of an eye .......and see the MLC'er and OW together .....supposedly living in 'paradise'.
and are finding it hard to move forward .....
They have every right to be angry and hurt and if some direct that toward the OW then why shouldnt they.....?

We all process stuff in our own time JUST BECAUSE IT WASN't YOUR EXPERIENCE DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT OR MAKE IT SO..

And just because you are forthright and have no problem saying how you feel, not everyone is the same.....so we need to step back here and be kinder and a bit more thoughtful toward others...…..a lot of the people contributing on this post have been here for a long time.....but I feel some people forget how they felt when they first come here and some are only seeing everything from their own experience...….IMO... 

I hope now this thread can go forward in a more positive light and I hope it hasn't discouraged anyone who is struggling with the OW's presence from getting the support they need

And OP your latest post proves my point  ..................Wheeling out these mantras regarding detachment and asking them why they cant detach ...….makes people who are struggling feel inadequate.....
it takes a very long time to get to detachment and along the way you need to vent.........and talk and share to get to that hallowed ground..

[Treasur]

Well, 1t, I think a lot of the responses here show that your instincts were right that some people need this space.

Imho OP is right about detachment. Ish.
DOING detachment and TRYING to acheive detachment and FEELING detachment are not the same. And some things are are a lot harder to Detach from.
I read an old post somewhere when someone said what they felt was a kind of 'furious sadness' which was about the carnage that had replaced what used to be their family's life. Pretty good phrase I thought.
It takes a lot of time to find our own version of detachment and some bits of it we may have to learn to live without.

I never imagined I would experience what it was like to receive graphic death threats.
In a way, I did detach from that bc it was so surreal....but ow was a player in that...and my detachment took me to the point of PTSD disassociation tbh where I no longer cared much about anything. So, I won my detachment good girl points but at a very high cost. Ditto, I have no words to explain what it is like to see and read about the soulmate wedding of someone who was your h literally weeks before, to see a public story in which almost two decades of your existence have been erased and diminished. I am pleased that I was detached enough to not do any of the things I wanted to do to scream that I was a real human and to p*ss all over their pretty story bc it would not have helped me for more than an hour. But oh my god, I wanted to...and that was less than a year ago.

Before real detachment comes acceptance I think. Surface acceptance at first and then layers and layers of shocked WTF moments before we get to a deeper kind of acceptance that we can feel instead of think. And then with that acceptance, probably the beginning of really feeling detachment.

I'm about 3 years in. I can do detachment. I have flickers of feeling it on a day to day level. But do I really feel detached from everything I lost, everything that shocked me so much, all of my fears and everything that happened? Not even close.

I am sat outside my mother's room right now, alone, bc she is not well. Is there a bit of me that resents that and feels that my mother deserved better from the sil she loved so much for so long? That ow was/is part of a situation that hurt and disrespected everyone who loved and supported my h and me? And do I feel angry at the idea of them enjoying a lovely weekend morning brunch say while I am here alone? Absolutely.

As 1t says, the path to our own version of detachment is a long tough one and venting and raging at the unfairness of it is part of that path for some. If being able to be honest here that we are NOT detached helps us to wisely ACT detached in RL in our own best interests, that is probably a good thing and it costs nothing for the rest of us to validate and virtually listen.

[Milly]

I agree with everything Treasur and Evergreen said. They are my feelings, too.

Shock, I found your information on your father's OW very interesting. I think it's helpful to many of us to hear a first hand experience of what these OW are like. It makes me feel better for sure.

My H's OW is in my face, has caused problems with my kids, has sued my D and I, has written me disgusting messages but even if she hadn't, my feelings are my feelings.

About Old Pilot's post regarding why I can't detach, I no longer wonder or worry about this. Detachment is not something you can make yourself do, nor is there anything wrong with me since I haven't yet detached.

Yes, almost 5 years, and I haven't yet completely detached. I hope to get there one day, but it's not today. Is there something weaker about me than the LBS who detach quickly? Maybe. But it's not a fault nor is this something wrong about me. As an LBS, I have done nothing but question what I have done wrong during my marriage, after my marriage, and all my life. I have been nothing but gracious, hard working, done my best to survive, support my kids both financially and emotionally single handedly, so I'm not going to take on board that I still have something to correct in myself because I'm not detached. I loved my H. I trusted my H completely. He tells me he never loved me. He cheated on me. I am still attached. What does that make me? I don't know, but not some lesser person.

As I told another LBS in private, I could have handled H leaving me, I could have handled having to deal with supporting my kids by myself, but the affair totally destroyed me. It made me feel like I was ugly, uninteresting, stupid, not good enough in bed, not good enough as a partner, not someone anyone would be proud to be with, and I'm still struggling with these thoughts.

I know the affair is also my H's fault. I know he chose, as a married man, to unbutton his trousers. I did tell him this in the beginning. I'm always going on about my H and his bad behaviour, so I'm not protecting him or believing he is innocent. However, and I might be wrong, I get the impression on HS, that the OW is to be protected. We are not allowed to speak badly about her. Actually, we are frowned upon if we even mention her, so I don't. But I'm still thinking of her, so this virtual message that comes across on HS to not mention the OW because it will help the LBS get over her, hasn't worked for me. I'm just keeping quiet about it. But I do think that if I could let it out about her, it would help me. There are only so many times I can complain about something my H did without it becoming boring to me, or I'm desensitized about that matter eventually. Wouldn't it be great if I could reach that point with the OW, too.

I'm much better about OW now than I was at the beginning, I have learned from my mistakes, such as engaging with her. But hearing from others to not do this, didn't work. Like an addict, I had to see for myself. So I don't blame other LBSs who still engage with the OW, or spy her on social media, I did it, too, until I didn't. It's a progress we need to work out ourselves by trial and error.

I think there's nothing wrong with other LBSs offering advice on how to deal with the OW but then letting the LBS do it her way. Maybe I'm perceiving it wrong, but when we are told to ignore the OW, or she is just a symptom (which is a great message by the way), it feels like I'm less than because I still have emotions about the OW. I envy the LBSs who feel that the OW is nothing. I want to feel like that. I hope to get there one day, but in the mean time, I don't want to feel like I'm some crazy, drama desiring, vulgar ex-wife because I still talk about the OW.

And for the LBS who are still suffering freshly about the OW and the affair. I still call my H's OW disgusting names in private as in the car, or in my head. She is probably the worst person I've ever had to deal with in my life. Then I switch my image to a big red stop button and move on to other thoughts quickly before my heart starts palpitating, I turn red, get fuming mad, and ruin my day.

[nah]

I get what you’re saying Trouble. Well, I get it bc I can check most of those boxes.

2 kids, 30 years.

Gaslighting? Check.
He convinced me I was old and fat. He left me for a younger woman.

Lose everything?  Check
His income was literally ten times mine, financially he had all the power.

Issues with the kids? Check
He and his family alienated me from my adult daughter. A mutual “friend” posted his wedding with the affair partner under one arm and my daughter who hasn’t spoken to me in five years under the other... all smiles.

Did I forget the pain?  I remember it like it was yesterday.

That’s why I’m still here.

I remember what pushed me down, “the monkey-braining” and what gave me power, “focusing on myself.”

As an old-timer 98% of the time, I can skim through the same conversations that have been repeated on here in a million different ways over the years and hopefully gently (but maybe it’s not perceived that way bc of the pain) and recommend guidance to help the betrayed spouse find their way out of that dark cloud of pain.

I know... I’ve been there. I’ve done it.

Number one trick to get back your power?

Firetrucking take it.

How?

Stop publicly calling the affair partner a dumb-dumb-stupid-head (or home wrecker, or ow, or Voldemort, to the public they all sound the same,... weak and pathetic) and address them with the most powerful tool you have...
Silence.

I know this through experience. I’m not being dismissive to newbies pain, I’m letting them know, it’s normal to vent, it’s normal to make mistakes, I did it too but there’s a better way. It’s not much different than watching a 3-yr-old about to touch a hot stove. “Hey, don’t touch, that’s gonna burn”. Hopefully they won’t touch, if they do, well, hopefully they will realize my words came from experience.

You don’t like my advice?  Keep scrolling.

You have a different opinion and would like to discuss?  Again, that’s why I’m here. Ask away. If your a newbie, and afraid to ask publicly, send me a message. You’re not weak, just rightfully so, in a lot of pain. I read this forum for over a year before I was strong enough to post. I get it, I remember, and I hope I can help.

[Treasur]

When my mother cried this morning and asked where my h was (bc dementia means he is still my h in her head)..I wanted both of them to burn in hell with my mother's sad frail confused face on a constant video loop. And I would have punched anyone who said I 'should' feel anything different than how I felt. As Milly says, there are so many places in RL where we have to drink the STFU smoothie....I hope that HS is always a place where 2x4s are reserved for our actions as LBS not our feelings.

My feelings change nothing practically but part of my power as Nah describes is that I get to feel whatever the f**k I feel. As an adult, I am responsible for what I do with those feelings but I get to feel them and to resent the situation created to please others that caused me and my mother today such distress.

[nah]

Yes, anger is normal and needs a place to go.

Personally, I attack other people’s affair partners all the time.

Surprised?

I never said I was perfect.   

[Treasur]

Fantastic but not perfect is just fine, Nah 

[Airmid]

Dealing with BD/MLC is dealing with Grief.


For a good number of us - the BD will lead to the end of our marriages - and our spouse will end up with the OW/OM.
In a way it is very similar to the death of a spouse - only worse - because in death the person left you - but not willingly.
The death of a spouse usually does not involve betrayal, gas lighting, etc.

Yet even in the death of a spouse - there are the 5 stages of Grief and one of them is Anger.
Why then do we deny the Anger when we are healing from BD?

In terms of the LBSer - anger can take many forms.
 
It can be anger at the MLCer, anger at the OW.
It can also at certain stages of healing can be anger at ourselves for being a self perceived doormat or for not healing "fast enough".
It can be anger at God - how could God let this happen?
It can be anger at others for not understanding why we just don't "get on with out lives (6 months after the BD - sheez  )
It can be anger at our kids for accepting the MLCers behavior - or for accepting the other woman.

In some instances - it is simply a phase and it will dissipate on its own - just like denial and depression.
In some cases it is helpful to have a therapist assist us in working through the stages of grief.

But anger is a necessary phase - and to deny it is harmful because it will simply crop up somewhere else at a later date.
Many LBSers have been fixers or placaters.  They learned to smooth things over in life.
I was one of the types of people.  It took a very long time for me to find and acknowledge my anger.
In my upbringing - anger under any circumstances was deemed "wrong".
This is why I think there was no fighting in my marriage - neither of us understood how to deal with anger so we suppressed it.
My MLCer never expressed anger - and never told me he was frustrated or unhappy - until BD.
And then full monster came out.

Think about that a minute - monstering is a reaction to having a lot of pent up anger that was never expressed.
And once that monster is out of the box - it is like a hurricane.
That is not healthy.

So I think it is important to acknowledge your anger.
And acknowledging it means feeling it - giving it voice.

This forum is supposed to be a place for healing.
It will be a very sad situation if we can't allow a healthy amount of anger be voiced here at the appropriate times.
It is very true that eventually not focusing on the OW/OM is the final goal - but that happens usually with time.

It is fine to preach about detachment - but detachment is a long process.
You can't simply wake up one day and say - "Ok, from now on I am going to be detached."
It doesn't work that way.

I have in the early phases of my recovery from BD referred to the OW as "pond scum" or "parasite" on my HS threads.
In 2015-16 no one had any problem with that on this forum.
Many of us had "pet names" for the OW and our MLCer.
I called my MLC "OB" for Ostrich-boy because he stuck his head in the sand when it came to dealing with issues.

It was harmless and sometimes the names LBSers gave were funny.
It was a way of letting off steam.

Yes, it is possible to go too far with anger.  If you are running out slashing OW/OMs tires - that is a crime.
Unfortunately, for at least one poster here - the name calling resulted in a felony charge.
But these are not the norms.
The normal venting of anger should be accepted as part of the healing process.
 

Stages of grief in terminal illness[edit]
The stages, popularly known by the acronym DABDA, include:[6]

Denial – The first reaction is denial. In this stage, individuals believe the diagnosis is somehow mistaken, and cling to a false, preferable reality.

Anger – When the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue, they become frustrated, especially at proximate individuals. Certain psychological responses of a person undergoing this phase would be: "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; "Who is to blame?"; "Why would this happen?".

Bargaining – The third stage involves the hope that the individual can avoid a cause of grief. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. People facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek compromise. Examples include the terminally ill person who "negotiates with God" to attend a daughter's wedding or an attempt to bargain for more time to live in exchange for a reformed lifestyle.

Depression – "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die soon, so what's the point?"; "I miss my loved one; why go on?"
During the fourth stage, the individual despairs at the recognition of their mortality. In this state, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time mournful and sullen.

Acceptance – "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it; I may as well prepare for it."
In this last stage, individuals embrace mortality or inevitable future, or that of a loved one, or other tragic event. People dying may precede the survivors in this state, which typically comes with a calm, retrospective view for the individual, and a stable condition of emotions.