[Shockandawe]

SS

This was the same with my Father. He ended up marrying the worlds gold medalist of psycho ow! As with your FIL he didn’t want to live alone and, after many requests to my Mother for reconciliation, all of which she refused, she re married. My Father took about 5 years before his awakening began. My Mother gave up and moved on.

My Father died 9 years ago and he died still loving my Mother which is so sad as she herself told me that at the time she had no idea about MLC and had there been a forum like this she would have understood and would very probably have waited.

I’m wondering about my sister with her MLC the trigger was our Fathers death but I think the FOO thing was prevalent in her case. Our Father had an MLC so maybe that affected her more than me as she’s older and remembered a lot more.

[Anjae]

We may not have any firsthand ones, but I recall a recent post where someone mentioned an MLCer they know of who reached out to the LBS after 15 years with the OW. I'm sure there have to be others of really long duration.

It was Savoir Faire that mentioned it. Don't recall if it was 15 years with OW or 15 years gone. The MLCer is still with OW, but reconnecting. Still, long term reports, be it first hand, second hand or by the LBS of a long term returning MLCer are rare. Stayed has a friend whose husband turned up after 8 or 9 years gone. He literally showed at his LBS doorstep.

Not all reports on HS are first hand, several are from MLCers or former MLCers HS members know. However, most of those stories tend to be towards the shorter or mid lenght crisis. At times Old Timers that haven't post in a long time show up and update, several still have MLCers in Replay many years down the road, so that is mostly all they have to say for now.

HS posters are a small sample, but larger than many serious studies of all sorts use. Most LBS out there move on. Most likely they don't have a clue what is going on with their spouse (all those years ago at BD I didn't), and even if they do, just like in HS, many will find a new life. Most marriages never reconcile, be it on HS on out there.

Even Replay often (mostly I would say) lasts far more than 3 or 4 years as seen more and more on HS as time goes by. Same with several real life MLCers I  and other HS members know. The crisis will last even longer.

Thanks, Standing Strong. Any insight is welcomed. If your MIL is still clings to the lies she told herself and the lies OM told her, she may not be fully cooked? 10 years after divorce is a long time. Many, if not most, LBS have long moved on 10 years after divorce or BD. Your FIL did what he had to do. He could not knew how much long his MLCer crisis was going to last of if it was ever to end.

What is interesting with your MIL, and with the MLCers of some HS male LBS is that we are start to see female MLCers whose Replay and crisis take many years and not what used to be thought, that women's crisis were much shorter than men's ones.

The good thing of HS being around for a good while now (9 years) is that we are learning much more about long Replay and Crisis, but we still don't have information anywhere near the amount we have on BD and the early crisis years. Same happens with reconnection and reconciliation, we know more than we did, but still not enough.

[Thunder]

You're so right Anjae.

There is so much more to learn from when this site began.  It was in it's infancy.

I truly believe these crisis's last a lot longer then originally thought.

[Standing Strong]

We may not have any firsthand ones, but I recall a recent post where someone mentioned an MLCer they know of who reached out to the LBS after 15 years with the OW. I'm sure there have to be others of really long duration.

If your MIL is still clings to the lies she told herself and the lies OM told her, she may not be fully cooked? 10 years after divorce is a long time. Many, if not most, LBS have long moved on 10 years after divorce or BD. Your FIL did what he had to do. He could not knew how much long his MLCer crisis was going to last of if it was ever to end.

What is interesting with your MIL, and with the MLCers of some HS male LBS is that we are start to see female MLCers whose Replay and crisis take many years and not what used to be thought, that women's crisis were much shorter than men's ones.

I'm wondering now (in the case of MIL) if it isn't a form of brain damage or brain washing. The guilt and shame have always been there, since the day I met her.
That has never changed. A restless, wandering spirit..... but a very kind one. I wish I could have met the version she was before all that happened.

I don't know how long it takes someone to believe a lie, but I can see her doing anything to believe those lies and keep them going.... the alternative is to look at herself (and she's ALWAYS hated doing that).
This seems to be a reoccurring theme with the long term MLC stories.

How sad someone will lie to themselves their whole life, and die...... covered in lies. Terrible.
It does make me wonder, the really long MLC'ers..... it's not like they will call up and say "hey, I'm out of the tunnel.... come get me". I'd imagine they pop out, the world has changed, and they crawl off into the dark and wait to die. I really get that from my MIL. She can't make amends, she can't look at herself, after 30 years she still fuels her life with distractions, and obsessed with convincing herself that she's a good person. She's scared of her siblings, avoids them like the plague. Avoids anything heavy with her daughters (but wishes to have a good relationship with them desperately). I do think there's some sort of brain damage because while she is a sweetheart, there's something noticeably off in that head of hers.

Does any of that strike a chord with long term'ers?

-SS

[Treasur]

Occurs to me that there is a risk too in combining different things.
The affair and our rejection is so painful that it is tempting to use both as markers of MLC 'progress' but if we also remember that their crisis is not about us, that could be a confusing mistake? And Replay is not the totality of the crisis process is it? If the later stages are about insight and some kind of internal resolution, who is to say that this resolution draws them any closer to the life they had before? Rebuilding my own life post-LBS crisis is teaching me that some of the old bit of my old me/life....nothing to do with my MLCer or m...no longer feel as if they fit. Big things as well as small ones.

So, I can imagine an MLCer reaching a point of 'awakening' and realising that the affair was not the right answer...ending it but not reconnecting or communicating with the LBS at all bc their crisis realisation is that they want a different kind of life that fits the post-crisis person they have become. Not in a Replay way but a normal way. We can't know what is in someone else's head after all. Or they replace the affair with a healthier new relationship. Or are trapped in the new reality they have made bc there was an OB, or a Omarriage, or financial dependence....but no longer in crisis. It is worth reminding ourselves that THEIR recovery from THEIR crisis may simply be nothing to do with any kind of change towards either the AP or LBS?

And as Nas says, and for those of us with vanishers we probably all start to assume this, that as awful as the affair and rejection feel to us or as awful as ow/om often seems, the relationship evolves into something of more substance and fits who they become after their crisis. That must happen in some cases. If you have some kind of contact bc of kids etc, I imagine that you would see some changes in their behaviour generally from crisis version to post-crisis version...but if there is no contact, it doesn't mean it isn't happening just bc the LBS doesn't see it. Jmo.

And on the issue of time, there are quite a few old timers - think karmirtsaghik was a recent one? - who get long letters of regret and remorse years and years later from MLCers who for whatever practical and emotional reason did not try to reach out as they started to recover. Anecdotally the AP does seem to be part of the landscape of crisis and most MLCers do seem to eventually regret it....but of course we can only know how they feel if they communicate and many may not. Or they end up with a half-cooked post crisis version bc of their own sense of shame and helplessness a bit like Standing's MiL...no longer in crisis per se...but some kind of sad in between.

[Trustandlove]

Just on the subject of them "awakening" after many years; I know of Dragonfly's H, who has now done so after something like 12 years; the path to reconciliation isn't easy, but it's happening. 

My name gets brought up here sometimes, my MLCer is one who has gone from OW to OW; I have said before that I think he is living the consequences of his crisis; he may not be in the deepest throes of it any more after more than a decade, but he is living a new reality, yes there is an Omarriage, and from what I understand financial dependence as well.   

Which is difficult for a man who used to be financially successful and well regarded in his profession. 

All of his crisis wasn't about the OWs; there were many other factors; he left his job, he lost huge amounts of money doing other things, there is plenty more. 

My own view is that he was pretty much a poster boy for MLC, and that in the earlier years it was pretty textbook, and not even that horrible if the stories here are anything to go by.  There were many times when he could have woken up and said "I want my life back"; he didn't do that for whatever reason, very possibly because friends may have told him it couldn't be done.  And he felt guilty not only about me, but about they many other things he screwed up, and the longer it went on, the more there was to feel guilty about, hence it was easier to run. 

And in the company he now keeps there was plenty of opportunity to run. 

Over the years I saw so many instances of "almost" reaching out, starting to, and then pulling back hugely.  That was usually after he had spoken to someone else, either an alternative therapist or a "friend"; so many people just say "that ship has sailed, you can't go back, she'll be a b**ch", and so on. 

He once told me that he had thought about it, but that there were "too many resentments".  He has also often spoken as if it were the other way round, as if I had left him -- he even once said that he tried to behave badly so that I would kick him out; in his own mind he may well feel that he is so horrible that I would do so.  Again, that way he doesn't have to face himself. 

He told me that he felt "not good enough"; which I know is a standard feeling for those in crisis, however he said it was me who "made" him feel that way; perhaps the OW doesn't.  Or maybe she does, but he goes along with it because he doesn't see an alternative that he feels he can do. 

And the role of the OW(s) in all this?  At first for him it was just a clean slate -- he felt that with someone, anyone new he could be whoever he wanted to be, there wouldn't be any hurts or resentments.  He of course found out that each r came with "issues", but again, didn't choose to come back to me.  That may well have been because he still felt that what he did was unforgivable, and he thought, assumed, whatever, that I would hold it over him forever.  Even though I said otherwise it was pretty clear that he didn't believe it. 

The latest OW may well be the one who thinks he is marvellous and doesn't ask questions, she may well have her own reasons for that.  Our children haven't met her, my MLCer says that he has "accepted" that he doesn't have a life with them. 

I am not at all sure if he has "chosen" a new life to suit the person he has become, or if he is just living the life he finds himself in; he used to frequently tell me that he felt guilty; he has more recently said that to our children, (although they see each other so infrequently that even that was over a year ago), and told my D that it was a mess, but when she said "so fix it", he just said "how?" 

And she of course couldn't answer, and it isn't her job to do so. 

One thing that does resonate with my situation is that it is said that MLCers go along with whoever is making the decisions; my H is now with someone who does that, and he may just find it easier. 

Whatever his truth is, one thing I do know is that he continues to blame circumstances rather than look inward, and he has people in his life who enable that. 

[nah]

I know I'm late in the thread here, very interesting discussion.

I'm surprised addiction hasn't come up yet (unless I missed it).

I often called The Leaver the trophy carrying MLCer, he fits every stereotype to the extreme (Harley Davidson, red sports car, young blonde coworker, the list goes on and on and on)

Is there a difference between MLC and addictions?  I'm not so sure.

History:
When I met my future husband, we were teenagers.  He was addicted to cocaine. 
He had many issues due to that addiction that led him to quit, the biggest one being a gun in his face b/c of a bad deal. 
So he quit and now life would get better, right?
No.  New addictions emerged over the years; 
Let's see...
Alcohol, bottles of hard liquor a day. quit at 23.
Food. Put on 80 lbs in one year. quit food (lol) at 24-25
Exercise. Ate only one pickle a day (weird, I know) Lost 60 lbs in 2 months.
Started eating again, put on about 50 lbs in one year.
Started drinking again, b/c he could "handle it now."
Quit 5 years later b/c he was hiding (not very good at it) that he was drinking more than a liter of hard liquor a day.
Switched to Marijuana for about a year. 
Switched to cigars,
then chewing tobacco,
Diet Coke (about 24 cans a day)
back to food, exercise yo-yo...
Nasal spray, Q-tips, working, shopping, picking at his eyebrows, nail biting, gum chewing... these things seems normal but he switched from one to another and compulsively obsessed about these things until he switched to something else.

He never denied that he was extreme, we both used to say he had an "addictive personality"

What I didn't know, and never in a million years thought would be possible, that young girls would be an addiction. Not sure why I was so confident that sex addiction was not on the table, just naive, I guess.

Anyways, his "addictive personality" started to accelerate after a few of our friends died (suicides and drug overdoses).
Handfuls of "men" vitamins a day, 3 hours of exercise a day on top of 50-60 hours of work (how did he find time to date?), guns (this was new), tattoos, back to playing in a band (over 50K spent on music equipment) etc.

Nothing was working.  In his head, there must be an outside answer to why he was feeling miserable inside. He even said to me a few months before Bomb drop that he had everything a man could ask for, a beautiful family, a wife that he loved (his words), a great career, all the material things he wanted, but then he wanted to drive into a tree. 

So here comes the young blonde coworker that gives him attention.  His heart races,... they start an affair,... finally, he can feel excitement again, that's it!  He found the answer to his misery.  The only thing in his life he hadn't changed was his wife of almost 30 years.  He's happy when he's with the new one, so the old one MUST be the reason he is miserable inside.
So he dumps me and runs...

So... "MLCer in an affair - does this help or hinder their journey through the crisis?"

Personally, I think it's just another addiction.  Does Heroine help or hinder the addict? Maybe. 
Maybe it helps them hit rock bottom, so they can climb out OR it kills them.

Six years after he left, we just messaged each other.  He told me he had a "bad relapse a year ago" with drinking but "fought through it with support from very good people".  I told him he was a dry drunk.  That his issues would never subside until he addressed them directly.  He agreed but he is "proud that he made it through"...

So it's over now?  He "fixed" his issues for the final time?

What do you think?

[UrsaMajor]

So it's over now?  He "fixed" his issues for the final time?

What do you think?

No words needed...

[MyBrainIsBroken]

It does make me wonder, the really long MLC'ers..... it's not like they will call up and say "hey, I'm out of the tunnel.... come get me". I'd imagine they pop out, the world has changed, and they crawl off into the dark and wait to die. I really get that from my MIL. She can't make amends, she can't look at herself, after 30 years she still fuels her life with distractions, and obsessed with convincing herself that she's a good person. She's scared of her siblings, avoids them like the plague. Avoids anything heavy with her daughters (but wishes to have a good relationship with them desperately). I do think there's some sort of brain damage because while she is a sweetheart, there's something noticeably off in that head of hers.

It's been 5 years since BD and I can see my wife going this direction. The section I highlighted describes her perfectly.

[UrsaMajor]

It does make me wonder, the really long MLC'ers..... it's not like they will call up and say "hey, I'm out of the tunnel.... come get me". I'd imagine they pop out, the world has changed, and they crawl off into the dark and wait to die. I really get that from my MIL. She can't make amends, she can't look at herself, after 30 years she still fuels her life with distractions, and obsessed with convincing herself that she's a good person. She's scared of her siblings, avoids them like the plague. Avoids anything heavy with her daughters (but wishes to have a good relationship with them desperately). I do think there's some sort of brain damage because while she is a sweetheart, there's something noticeably off in that head of hers.

This describes FIL(RIP) to the T.... right down to the "crawling into the dark and waiting to die" because that is exactly what he did in the end...