[Bewildered survivor]

Barbie I found your post painful to read- the trauma & abuse your H experienced would undoubtedly have caused some deep wounds that may never heal

Reading others perspectives on role/purpose of ow and the way MLCer treats them obviously made me reflect on my situation. I don’t have insight into that relationship apart from bits that the kids share and what I can see on the surface as H has never spoken to me about the relationship in any kind of detail and we are pretty much no or dim contact for some time. But from what I can see H treats her pretty well- in fact puts her on a pedestal. He seems to be doing all the same things with her as he did with me. He’s just replaced me with her.

The biggest difference is that with her he can feel adored and he knows however much he lowers his standards and morals, in his mind he will always be better than her or not as bad as her. He can be someone else. He can be someone who is the opposite of the man he was before....someone who craved the need to be needed and loved and therefore someone who did everything to please others and fit the role he was expected to. He’s basically gone to the gutter and surrounded himself with rats so he can be king of the castle or gutter.

That stemmed from childhood. He wasn’t allowed to rebel and had to do what was expected of him and be perfect. There was no overt abuse (as far as I know) and he was brought up very privileged and somewhat entitled. He wasn’t brought up to deal with adversity or conflict or any other important lessons in life. However he was brought up in a family in which he didn’t ever feel good enough and wasn’t respected or heard. The only way he could be noticed was by being the ‘perfect’ son/ brother and doing whatever was expected of him. Until middle age hit and he imploded.

With me he again tried to fit a role. I respected him and appreciated him and showed him mature love. But I had standards. He knows I would not put up with the way he is acting now. I was brought up to have an opinion and to express it, something he once loved about me. During this crisis he can no longer handle that and has chosen someone who is broken and has no morals or standards so he thinks he can be whoever he wants with her. He’s full of low self worth. It’s clear in my situation that he projects all goodness on to her and all badness onto me- hence why I get all of monster. Until the mask slips and he sees her and himself for what they truly are. Ow in my situation has an agenda and until her agenda is fulfilled she will play the role of adoring and doting ow and put up with it all...after all it’s still better than what she’s had before. So low self worth on both sides makes that relationship one based on need and not love.

I’m not convinced he working anything out in that relationship and think it’s purely based on addiction and a need to avoid himself and his demons. Ow doesn’t resemble any relationship with his parents. What she represents is pure rebellion and the opposite of someone who he should be with according to his family. It’s like the moral radar or switch is turned completely off.

[Not Applicable]

Nerissa makes a good point. I read something somewhere that someone who is sexually abused as a child on average waits 30 years before they tell anyone.  Not to say he was necessarily sexually abused, but it does show how there is always the possibility you don't know the trauma he went through.

[Not Applicable]

I just remembered another comment I wanted to make. Not sure who made the remark earlier in this thread, but someone said something about how they are looking for someone that reminds them of their parent and then with time they outgrow the need to have someone like that. I just wanted to point out that sometimes they may want someone like that (my H told OW he wanted someone like his mother) but that person doesn't actually fit the mold perfectly and that can lead to the breakup once they realize that OP is not what they fantasized. And it may be a superficial characteristic that they fit. In my H's case, it was literally just one word that OW said in response to him that his mother used to say to his father to just get him off her back. Seriously, just one word. My H wanted to hear this word from me and I flat out refused because it was demeaning. In his language it is a word used normally by an inferior person to their superior. My H has told me on more than one occasion that hearing this word and another word are more important to him than ANYTHING. I grilled him on this, he asserted it was more important than anything in his life. Well I think any of us can think of thousands of things more important than a word but for him that was numero uno. That doesn't mean though that OW will be like his mother in other ways. So they may latch on to one similarity but it won't necessarily be a comprehensive fit.

[Anjae]

MLC theory is just that.  A theory.  It is based on personal observations and anecdotes. Hardly objective or scientific.  Besides, you see what want to see.  Humans are very adroit in cherry picking in general, to suit our subconscious agenda. 

This. Or one seems what the examples and the words of the examples one knows in real life. If they all point to one thing, that is what ones has as example/sample size, it to another thing, something else, etc. Some may have different types of real life examples.

To take the theory as gospel truth and extrapolate the same or similar travel path and/or outcome as seen in RCR, HB and Conway’s cases, is perhaps naive at best, delusional at worst.  Just my opinion.

This 100%

When does a theory become a quasi-religion one believes and invest trust in?  A question I asked myself often, especially when I was despondent and wanted to hang onto some hope. 

I don't know, but it seems to had become a bit so on HS.

It is obvious people haveMLC for different reasons, and the reasons vary from MLCer to MLCer. There is a MLC recognisable process/script, but what drove the person into crisis can be, and often is, very different from MLCer to MLCer.

The depression part I think no one disagrees with. It is part of MLC, regardless of the reason for MLC.

Mr J solved nothing with OW1. He also did not work on anything with OW2. Maybe if he gets to OW3 he may. OW2 is no more. She stop living with him October 2018. He as since moved from where they used to live and lives somewhere else.

I don't have a clue if OW1 or OW2 had any role, or represented something to Mr J. One of the few things he said about OW1 was that "she was what he needed now" and that "he wanted to try and make it work with her". It didn't last long in the open. Maybe he spend 10 years trying to make it work with OW2.

He is still a mess, he is still in High Replay. OW is not the main driving force of his MLC. However, OW/the affair/living with someone else/divorce court cases are all reasons that hindered him and that made it very, very hard for a reconnection, let alone a reconciliation.

I think there are too many theories on the role of OW/OM. No one can prove a single one of those theories. Phsycology is not a science and a lot of what is used on HS still comes from the Jungs and the Freuds. Very old stuff that many therapists and psychiatrists have long put to rest.

[beyondblessed]

But in the end, if they do the work or not, they might go on to a new life without us because they have become different people and we no longer fit together.

Ah!!!! I was wondering about this for weeks..... this is the best explanation I've seen. Makes perfect sense. Thanks Nerissa!!

Makes sense to me too...and that perhaps even more likely that we LBS become sufficiently different as a result of this experience that we no longer want what they might have to offer even if they do try to reconnect.

100% spot on.... This whole situation perpetuates CHANGE.  If you navigate this journey with a forward-facing, forward-moving direction,  there's a far greater chance your paths will never cross again in an intimate relationship. 

[Anon]

Heads up.... it's a very long post thanks to just catching up now after posting a day ago. 

A lot of thoughts here and I've commented on a lot of them.   It's resulted in a super long post but I am thankful for the many replies to my original question.   Do I know the answer yet?  Well.... I'm still very strongly leaning toward the affair helps the MLC journey but it's in ways we cannot see or understand.   Whose to say if a MLC takes so long because they are stuck for many years in an affair or if they would be even longer coming out of MLC without the affair?  It's one of those questions that can never be answered because we will never know what the alternative path would have yielded. 

From MBIB:   

Obviously, therapy would be a much better solution than an affair but therapy is not an option for MLCers so the affair becomes a necessary part of their attempt to heal.

I don’t know about this Brain.   Therapy has been widely reported as useless to anyone in the thick of MLC.  They simply are not open to it.  If they were, would they really be in MLC?  No idea, but just I wonder. 

,,,it also extends the crisis because the AP does everything possible to prevent the MLCer from healing. It's best for the AP to keep the MLCer just as they are at BD.

This may not be  any different than the unhealthy original conflict with whoever that was (parent?).   The AP may be exactly who they need to recreate that conflict, regardless of how much they prevent their eventual healing.  It’s a lesson they need to learn and master - getting free from it.   So does the affair really prolong the crisis or just force the MLCer to face that original conflict.  Without doing that,,, they may not resolve anything. 

From Anjae:

My view, and the view of all real life MLCer I know who had OW/OM is that they were not solving anything. They had a crisis and an affair because they felt old and wanted to capture lost youth.    Their affair sorted nothing, only brought them more problems, the loss of their marriage and LBS, them feeling like rubish, etc..


Surely the reason for MLC is not this simple.   I feel old and I would love to turn back the clock in many ways but I haven’t had an affair nor a MLC.   I accept my reality … what makes it different for a MLCer that they can’t do that and need an affair?  What is different between them and the rest of us that do not have an MLC?

I don't see, and has never seen, MLC the way many here tend to see it. I see it as a result of stress, anxiety, depression and fear of aging/losing out.

How much stress, anxiety, depression does one need before launched into a MLC?  Most of us here have had a few lifetimes worth of this and some do have their own MLC, but from what I can tell, most do not.    Again, what’s the difference between us and them?   Fear of aging/losing out…. that’s definitely part of MLC but it’s far from the whole story.

Since most will never reconcile and the main reason tends to be the affair, exactly what good did the affair served? 

The goal of MLC may not have anything to do with reconciliation and there may be a lot of good the affair served.   We are constantly told that we or the marriage are not the cause of the MLC.   The goal of a MLC, supposedly, is personal growth and resolution of old buried unresolved issues.   The marriage really has nothing to do with this so we can’t say that anything that happened during the crisis (including the affair) had anything to do with the marriage and therefore cannot have anything to do with it’s reconciliation either, once the MLC is over.   That doesn’t mean the affair had no value in aiding the resolution of the MLC just because the MLCer did not come back to the marriage.   Hard as it may be for many of us to hear,  the point of MLC is personal growth which may mean leaving the marriage behind for good. 

The affair is usually the may reason why there will be no reconnection or reconciliation. I am not talking only about HS members, but people in real life as well. It is the affair who prevents the MLCer from coming back to the LBS because the most LBS will not want the MLCer, mostly because of the affair.

Yes, the LBS may shut down any attempt at reconciliation because they don’t accept the affair and don’t understand the complexity of MLC which affairs are typically a part of.    BUT…does that necessarily mean the affair had no purpose in resolving the crisis?   Perhaps it did,,, maybe for sure it did,,, but the LBS doesn’t care anymore.   Doesn’t mean the crisis was a complete waste because reconciliation didn’t happen.   Without the crisis, the MLCer may have died a slow emotional death because of the issues that remained buried.   What’s worse?  A healed MLCer without a marriage?   Or an intact marriage with a person who continues to suffer with unaddressed buried issues?   

I find it interesting you guys are so cool with the affair being so, so necessary, yet, several, if not, most of you, are deeply upset and disturbed by the affair. If I think something is absolutly necessary I am not going to be upset or disturbed by it.

This is partly why I opened this discussion.    If it’s totally necessary then I’m far less likely to be deeply upset or disturbed by it and I may find that compassion and forgiveness that is part of the final letting go I’m desiring.   I want to find that compassion and forgiveness.   It would be harder to find that if the affair was totally unnecessary and served zero purpose in the grand scheme of MLC.   I would find that offensive enough that compassion and forgiveness would be a lot longer coming than if the affair was a necessary aspect of resolving the MLC. 

P.S. If the affair was truly necessary for MLC/the MLCer all MLCers would need to have an affair. That is not true, some do not have an affair.


The reports consistently say that 97% or more of MLCers will have an affair.   The 3% that don’t are wallowers or simply unable to find a willing affair partner.   If they could, they would be in an affair too.   That’s more than enough for me to wonder if the affair is necessary to resolve (or attempt to resolve) a MLC.   In fact, these figures alone lead me to believe that the affair is necessary.   

The AP to me is merely the person that was willing.

This is far from true in my h’s case, anecdotal as it is.   There was a woman who was begging him for some kind of relationship post BD despite the fact that he was married, a mess, and having a MLC.   He couldn’t get far enough away from her.   

Another thing I find interesting, RCR created HS with a sample size of one, her husband. HB start writing about MLC with a sample size of two, her husband and herself. They're considered MLC "gospel". Yet, several of us have far bigger real life sample sizes than RCR or HB, yet, what we say the real life MLCers we know told us and/or our own.

These MLC ‘legends’ may have started their writings with such a small sample size but over time they have worked with several dozens (hundreds?) of people living with an MLC spouse.   Their writings would have evolved to include the knowledge gained from their research and with direct contact with LBS’s.   As far as ‘gospel’,, what they say is not surprisingly quite similar to other professionals who have spend considerable time researching MLC.  When it comes to sample size it matters little whether the sample is 1, 2 or several dozen.   They are all pathetically small and no conclusions can be accurately drawn from them.    To be anything but anecdotal reports, not dozens, but hundreds of accounts are required.  According to HB anyway, and maybe even RCR,, they may have dealt with such numbers. 

From Treasur:

The relationship was created to meet the needs of two folks at the time it was forged....so if the MLCer ever starts to recover and needs to stop running, their needs will change and the dynamic of the relationship would need to change too.

Agreed, and I expect the affair ends when this happens (or any relationship) when dynamics change significantly enough.

 I guess in some cases it does and in others it either ends or the MLCer gets stuck in it and wears a new mask.

If there is a new mask, then they are stuck.   That new mask carries them for awhile.   Eventually it will crumble just like the mask with us crumbled.   

I remember on one of the MLC checklists there was something about the MLCer seeing us as part of themselves as opposed to a separate person in our own right...perhaps the affair is similar, just a different part of themselves? I guess it helps if that enables them to explore and choose who they are independently of either us or the AP

I’ve read pretty much the exact words to describe co-dependant relationships which are usually unhealthy.   If we were co-dependent when our spouses abandoned us, the pain would be far worse than if we were not.   If our spouses often feel ‘one with the AP’ as opposed to a separate person as is usually the case, then that is also a co-dependant relationship and they will suffer the same pain when it eventually ends.   The extreme pain is because we feel a part of ourselves is lost when the relationship ends. 

Makes you wonder too I suppose why they were drawn to us and what we represented and represent now that they are no longer the same person in crisis or even after their crisis? I think my h valued my honesty and courage and kindness and optimism...a lot of the Babe stuff he didn't have...probably loved my father for the same reason i suspect. It made him feel safe and it was who he wanted to be probably.  Until he didn't or couldn't. I've always felt that part of his hatred for me is that subconsciously he felt that I failed him in some way, that I/we didn't keep the demons away forever. Not rational or fair I know but weirdly makes sense. And perhaps he feels that ow either does that or that she likes his demons or shares them or understands them...idk. But it makes sense too that he can't see me without seeing a mirror of who he was vs who he became and that would be pretty uncomfortable.

 Some of these older psych theories make perfect sense to me in a lot of what you say here.  Theories are not gospel and are never an answer to all the questions but there are times they fit so well it’s hard not to adopt them as the most likely explanation of what happened, at least in some situations.   FWIW,,, there is no definitive theory currently or in the past.   Unless a theory can satisfy every loose thread, it remains a theory.   And the theory of today is still just that,,, a theory, because there are still many loose threads.   Having said that,,, I do have my fav theories that seem to explain more than the other ones about what happens during a lot of MLC situations.  They are my fav theories because they often explain more than the other theories.   If that changes, then so would my fav theory change. 

From GIG:

Mlc operates at a conscious and unconscious level.

So true - way more unconscious than conscious.   That may be true of all of us and our behaviour.   The unconscious mind is far more in control of all what we do, unlike what we would like to believe. 

It makes me very uncomfortable when people talk about the "purpose" of MLC. Yes, the MLC has its causes and effects that we can observe. That does not mean it is something purposeful.

If not purposeful, then why do so many MLCers follow the same script?   It’s like they are driven to reach ,,, something,,, they don’t know what but they are driven none the less.   Reading the threads of those who stuck it out with an MLCer to the end (BB Help, Stayed, etc), their spouses seemed to come out of MLC and eventually reached a contentment that is way beyond what was possible otherwise.    My own opinion, fwiw,,, all human behaviour has a purpose.   We just don’t know what that is a lot of the time or even most of the time.   Doesn’t mean there is no purpose because we can't see it. 

From Bewildered:   

I’m not convinced he working anything out in that relationship and think it’s purely based on addiction and a need to avoid himself and his demons.

This is MLC in a nutshell.  Addiction is often, if not always an aspect of MLC.   The addiction helps them keep unconsciously distance from their unresolved issues.  Who knows exactly what he is working out in that relationship with ow?    Most of the growth in ‘beneath the soil’ and unseen to us, especially since we are not usually in the front row seats anymore.   We just don’t know what is going on in their heads.   Reconciled lbs spouses also went through many doubts over the years because they simply could not see or assess what was happening in the mind of their MLCer.   Many MLCer's come through eventually and to some LBS's it seems to happen suddenly because the bulk of the growth is not visible from our view. 

From Nerissa:
 
But in the end, if they do the work or not, they might go on to a new life without us because they have become different people and we no longer fit together.

Yes, I  suspect this will be true for most of us and why reconciliations are rare.   They change, we change, and the odds the dynamic stays the same between us during the MLC years is incredibly low.   I feel my own change (never mind his)  and it seems so unlikely the dynamic can ever be recreated that brought us together in the first place and I’m no longer sure I want that either.  We are different and changed and maybe what we need in our own future is not what worked for us in the past so it’s fitting we move on without each other as painful as it is.   It would be far less painful though, if I could understand, feel compassion and forgiveness, and love despite all the horror of the MLC years… and let go because that is what may be best for both of us despite the once perfect marriage I thought I had.   Tbh, as much as I want this in my future, I do struggle with the final letting go.   If my gut instinct, or any ‘knowing’ led me to believe we should be together after MLC then I would fight against it.  Instead, my gut instinct strongly tells me there is no future, nor should there be if I am to grow as I should, and to let go and get on with my life without him.     

[Anjae]

It can be that simple. Age was the reason given by the real life MLCers I know. Even people who do not have a MLC often tend to have an affair at midlife because they were feeling old and wanted to gave it one last go. Not everyone will have a MLC, feeling old will not have the same effect on everyone. Also, remember some MLCers, Mr and my cousin being some of those, were 36/37, not in their 50's. My cousin did nothing but to say how old he was, how his life was fineshed, blah, blah, blah.

The difference is people who do not have an affair did not thought an affair was a good idea/was going to solve a thing. Or they thought it was, but didn't had the energy for it (usually wallowers). There are also people who have had a MLC and never had an affair. Me, Ready2, others on HS, my cousin, etc. MLC does not always include an affair.

I don't know how much stress, anxiety and depression does it take for crisis levels to be reached. It will be different for each person. However, there is no MLC without stress, anxiety and depression, regardless of the reason for the crisis itself.

Again, the difference is each person is different. Each person reacts to things in a different manner. I am one of them as well as one of us. I know a bit of being one of them (my crisis was short, mild and did not include destroying a marriage and having an affair) as well as a bit of being one of us.

Why do some smokers have lung cancer and other's don't? They are different people.

True, there may be a lot of good the affair served. So far, I am still to meet a real life MLCer who ever said the affair served any purpose. They all regret it and said they gained nothing from it, with the exception of kids for those who had them with OW. I would venture those guys should know what the affair served, or did not served for.

I am still to see most HS members explaining what good did the affair served. As a general rule, the only thing the affair brings is huge problems, including for the MLCer. It leaves the MLCer with even bigger problems than before the affair.

Hard as it may be for many of us to hear,  the point of MLC is personal growth which may mean leaving the marriage behind for good. 

Is it? If so, why was it not for me, my cousin and the real life MLCers I know who have shared their story? My cousin is the same person he was, I am worst in a few ways, better in another, real life MLCers are either who they were or worst than before, maybe with one or two exceptions. The exceptions tend to be the ones who did not destroyed a marriage or had an affair.

The marriage and spouse have nothing to do with MLC, regardless of the reason for MLC. If someone has a MLC because they are afraid of getting old, that has nothing to do with marriage or spouse.

Reconciliation hardly ever happens. It has very little to do with MLC because it is a rarity. Yet, what is the aim of HS? Reconciliation. The rarest of things.

The goal of a MLC, supposedly, is personal growth and resolution of old buried unresolved issues.

Supposedly. For those who believe it has anything to do with old unresolved issues. I don't believe it, real life MCLers I know never mentioned any old buried unresolved issues, they mentioned age. Also, the standard view of MLC is that it is age related.

BUT…does that necessarily mean the affair had no purpose in resolving the crisis?

I can only go with the people I know in real life. The ones who had an affair or went as far as marry OW, say it only made things worst.  Mr J no longer has an OW. He is still in MLC. MLCers who do not have affair solve their MLC. If the affair was necessary to solve MLC, MLCers who had no OW/OM would not be able to solve MLC.

The MLCer does a gigantic emotional death with MLC. I'll go back to my cousin and myself. We solved no emotional buried issues. Nothing. We also didn't had a gigantic emotional death because none of us had a super destructive, many years long crisis. He had it emotionally worst than me, his depression hit horrendous levels.

What’s worse?  A healed MLCer without a marriage?   Or an intact marriage with a person who continues to suffer with unaddressed buried issues?   

What is worst and actually terrible is LBS being told MCLers will be a better version of themselves and will want back (the last tends to be true, most MLCers want back, but there will be no point, the LBS has moved on). Worst is LBS lives being turned up side down and often damaged for life because of the MLCer's crisis. It is kids being damaged for life because mum or dad had a MLC. The damages caused by MLC are too big. Whatever growth a MLCer may have does not come close to the damages, pain and hurt to all involved.

I don't care that much about the MLCer, I care about the LBS and children.


I don't see what forgiveness has to do with the affair serving or not serving a purpose. Forgiveness is forgiveness. It is not related to purpose or outcome. Forgiveness is also not related to reconciliation.


In essence, most LBS and kids suffer enormously for nothing. Most will end up without the marriage, often the life they had, etc. But are always told that, yes, MLC has some amazing higher purpose and so does the affair. What purpose? The MLCer will be filled with guilt and regret, several will try to kill themselves, some will kill themselves, pretty much everyone will not have the marriage. To me, it is nothing but useless suffering.


"Reading the threads of those who stuck it out with an MLCer to the end (BB Help, Stayed, etc), their spouses seemed to come out of MLC and eventually reached a contentment that is way beyond what was possible otherwise"

The contentment may have more to do with age and with the peace that comes out of crisis that has ended. Any crisis, not just MLC. It does not mean there was any purpose. On the other hand, my cousin does not have that contentment. He was probably too young when his MLC ended. He is just his old self. Several of the real life MLCers I know also do not have it. I have it, but may have more to do with having looking after my maternal grandmother for 8 years until she died than anything else.

We may not be able to see the purpose, but surely the person having the crisis should now if there was, or there was not a purpose. Also, how did people who never had a MLC know if there is a purpose? Because someone who had a MLC told them? Probably. But that is the thing, not all MLCer tell the same reason for their MLC.

If you, or anyone, aks me, or my cousin, what was the purpose of our crisis the answer will be "I don't know". My cousin said has much to the psychiatrist who helped him after he reached rock bottom. And I really don't have a clue what was the purpose of mine. The way I see it, it only served to leave me emotional. Emotional meant not doing what needed to be done.

Their writings would have evolved to include the knowledge gained from their research and with direct contact with LBS’s.

Barely. The articles are pretty much the same they were all those years ago. The main difference has to do with MLC time frame that has been increased.


"But in the end, if they do the work or not, they might go on to a new life without us because they have become different people and we no longer fit together."

One more reason why standing is not such a great thing aside from a grace period. However, the reason for so few reconcilations is, as seen in HS, and in my case real life, usually the LBS not wanting the MLCer back. The MLCer tends to try to come back. HS focus a lot on standing, the improved MCLer, but very little in talking about how people will change over the years and how far apart most LBS and MLCer will be once Replay is over (MLCers tend to try to reconnect/come back at the end of Replay or Liminality).

I think at first we all have quite a romantic view of MLC and how the MLCer will turn out. As the years go by, many of us start to see things differently.

[Nerissa]

For those who believe it has anything to do with old unresolved issues. I don't believe it, real life MCLers I know never mentioned any old buried unresolved issues, they mentioned age. Also, the standard view of MLC is that it is age related.

 I agree that there can be no one reason for an mlc; that feeling old is a common reason for an affair and that the concept that mlc has a ‘higher purpose’ romanticises what is, in reality, a maladaptive response to perceived personal Circumstances.

I do think though that the reasons for maladaptive behaviours are due to a mixture of innate temperament and ways of being learned from birth, beginning with the way we are mothered in the first days of our lives.  By definition, in order to behave in maladaptive ways, people have to lack self awareness and be unconscious of why they do what they do.

The only chance of uncovering this is effective and good quality psychological help.  How many want that or are in a space where they can lower their defences enough to learn?  We all having coping strategies.  They serve us well in early life but perhaps by by middle age, don’t work so well and we break down in some way, especially in relationships where both parties are impacting each other in patterns which may not be optimal if explored with a good therapist.

If some one psychologically whole and healthy wants to end a
Relationship, there are ways of doing it.  Mlc Bomb drop is not a healthy one. Neither are ongoing affairs while remaining married.  That why therapists, after a while and after a period of mourning the loss , like to see the spouse moving to formalising the separation because it simply isn’t healthy for the individual to be stuck like this.  It stunts the growth of the spouse because it is not possible to develop and individuate and grow while we are embroiled in a bad relationship.  We just cannot give sufficient attention to ourselves and our own lives while in this state.   it doesn't  mean mourning is completed - mourning is cyclical and can always return, but less acutely.   But long term, unresolved mourning  Is always deleterious for the person experiencing it.  That doesn’t mean we should be pushed into things before we are ready - that’s pretty much impossible anyway - we have to be ready psychologically in order to move forward and we will do it in our own time.


Also mention has been made several times about the mlc person seeing us as part of them.  This comes from the theory of Object relations and is about the way we internalise important figures in our lives.  Those with poor internal boundaries in this respect tend to see those close to them as part of them rather than separately.  It is an indication of a personality adaptation and if sufficiently present is an indicator of a personality disorder since all personality disorders have in common poor or undeveloped Object Relations.  It’s why the advice here is to separate emotionally and detach fully so that the distinction between them and us is clear.

A marriage counsellor has as their client the marriage.  A therapist has the person in front of them.  The interests of the individual and the saving of the marriage may not truly coincide in reality. 

[Acorn]

Interesting discussion!

I agree that there can be no one reason for an mlc; that feeling old is a common reason for an affair and that the concept that mlc has a ‘higher purpose’ romanticises what is, in reality, a maladaptive response to perceived personal Circumstances.

Likewise, romanticizing A as having a ‘higher purpose’ was MY maladaptive response to this act of betrayal.  Jung obligingly helped me in this endeavour by giving me some excuses...   It was just a Bandaid for me and hindered me from seeing the reality of H’s actions and our situation.  A straw I was grasping, if you like.   

Purpose?  What purpose?!

Oh, how I wanted to see some purpose in his betrayal to make me feel better.  I wanted to think that he was working through some mommy/daddy issues and guess what?  I saw what I wanted to see.  I wanted to justify it for him.  Well, for me, really.  My H couldn’t be such a bast***, right?  There must be some ‘higher purpose’ in all this, I thought.  Yeah, right!

What do I think now? 

Affair did not serve a PURPOSE, which implies that it was oriented toward FUTRE resolution of MLCer’s issues.  Rather, it was the RESULT of the PAST, in that he lost his mind, soul, integrity, self control and his moral code (becoming base and despicable), thus leading him to make the biggest mistake in his life that inflicted indescribable pain on the people that loved him and destroyed trust, marriage and family.  It was a totally selfish act in true MLCer form.

Whatever he may have gained through A, I did not see or hear.  In fact, being caught out and severing A started his forward movement. 

The reason he had A?  He said ‘human connection, someone to talk to’.  He apparently felt so alone.  No wonder, he had cut off everyone from pre-BD life, including me, the kids, FOO and friends.  Everyone.  His solution to that was to have A!  Higher purpose?  No, a very low one.

He has expressed several times his incredulity at the fact that he was capable of committing such dastardly act.  He was a blubbering mess when he shared that with me.  He also told me he never was/is better than anyone else and that his pride has been shorn away.  That was a lesson learned, nothing to do with a ‘higher purpose’.   

My take on his A?  While it lasted it only hindered H’s journey.  ‘Help’, it was not, in any shape or form.

Other MLCers may have a higher purpose in affair.  Maybe.  I don’t know.  It’s all conjecture anyway if we do not hear about it directly from the mouth of MLCer himself. 

My 2 cents’.  Talking about myself and my situation only. 

[Not Applicable]

It makes me very uncomfortable when people talk about the "purpose" of MLC. Yes, the MLC has its causes and effects that we can observe. That does not mean it is something purposeful.

If not purposeful, then why do so many MLCers follow the same script?   It’s like they are driven to reach ,,, something,,, they don’t know what but they are driven none the less.   Reading the threads of those who stuck it out with an MLCer to the end (BB Help, Stayed, etc), their spouses seemed to come out of MLC and eventually reached a contentment that is way beyond what was possible otherwise.    My own opinion, fwiw,,, all human behaviour has a purpose.   We just don’t know what that is a lot of the time or even most of the time.   Doesn’t mean there is no purpose because we can't see it. 

If like I do, you believe that MLC is the result of childhood issues, then it still does not have a purpose. Let's say I shove you really hard, or I stick my foot out in front of where you are walking, you are likely to fall down in both cases. Now, maybe you were an athlete competing against me and I wanted to hurt you so that you could not beat me in a competition. My action had a purpose that served me, but the effects it had on you had no purpose for you. Now, let's imagine as a result of your retirement from sports you wind up changing careers and invent the next Amazon, then you might spin my tripping you as having a "purpose" to make you move on to bigger and better things, but that's an unforeseen result, not something you purposefully chose.

Now, if MLCers are acting as they do as the result of various FOO issues and childhood abuse, it's like they were shoved or tripped and then 30 years later fell down.

I say all this with the knowledge that my H considers OW a tool, and in a lot of ways she is exactly that. She has a purpose to him, but that's different from the crisis itself. The MLC itself is a consequence of things that happened to the MLCer that they themselves could not control or choose. The actions they choose during the MLC have a purpose to them but the mental anguish that pushes them to undertake those actions is a result of others' actions, not a purposeful thing they chose themselves. They are simply a delayed reaction to actions that took place decades before.

We need to distinguish between things that happen for a purpose vs. those that happen as a consequence.

When the FOO play a pivotal role in your spouse's MLC, such as my H's or Watcher's for example, when the FOO themselves plays an alienator role, then you can see that they did not choose this in a purposeful way, that it was forced on them and they were too weak to resist in the face of the FOO.

If a person comes out of MLC a better person with a better marriage, then I don't think it is because they purposefully chose the "right" path but because they learned from choosing the wrong path and as a consequence learned from their mistakes. And remember, this forum is mostly for those who actually want to save their marriage. Most MLCers are probably kicked to the curb and divorced with no way back to the LBS. So the number that actually reconcile is probably even a smaller percentage than those who reconcile among forum members.