[Anjae]

RCR, I used personally, for me, etc. I would say I was clear is was what it means to me. And to me it means a waste of time.

Being civil towards someone is just that.

Your article has a purpose and it is not the LBS well-being, it is reconciliation.

You cannot say it has a purpose and that was why you used Paving The Way and then say it is not really what it means. Makes no sense and, as far as I am concerned, it is having double standards, one for you, one for others.

I don't think it is not possible to separate RCR the stander from 15 years ago from RCR the writer because she writes as a Stander and about what worked for her. RCR does not write from the point of view of a long-term LBS with an abusive MLCer that does not wish to interact, let alone, reconcile with her MLCer.

I am fully aware why people come to HS at first. Even I come here for the same reason I my BD had been years before. It does not change the fact that most of us will never reconcile nor that Paving The Way is more effective early on and that early on many, if not most, LBS are not capable of Paving The Way.

Yes, HS was founded to support them in that purpose. However the reality is that most here stop being standers and nearly no one reconciles.

The Paving The Way article in itself has an agenda, reconciliation. If it is aimed at reconciliation, that is an agenda.

Like I have said many times, if one is Paving The Way one is Paving The Way towards something, and per the article the something is reconciliation.


Mort, HS has existed since 2010. Most of its members never reconciled and never will. It is a well known fact, including by RCR. The odds are extremely low. MLC tends to last a very, very long time. Life goes on, LBS have new relationships and marriages.

I think you are still seeing things the way many early on LBS see, MLCer and marriage rather than LBS. It is normal, but, with time, many of us change the way we see things.

Your husband had a short crisis and he was not a particularly nasty MLCer, RCR. What would you have done if he was still in Replay 10 or more years down the road and if he was a violent, abusive MLCer? Stand? I recall you writing that if your husband's Replay hadn't end you would give yourself a timeline. Yourself, not him.


I understand every singe part of the word crisis. I had a MLC myself. I also know that when it comes to violence, or for that matter cheating, it makes no difference why. Someone was violent and/or cheated. For some reason, we tend to see MLC cheating as different from other cheating. We also tend to pretend it is not has a big, hurtful problem as it is.

OW/OM are a sympthom. It does not change the fact that OW/OM tend to be the number one reason why there will be no reconciliation. OffRoad and other LBS are clear, if their MLCer has OW/OM they will stop standing and be done.

Yet, we seem to want people to accept and take back someone that, frankly, as far as I am concerned once I gave a step back, is not worthy of us. Think about it. Standing for a cheater that is often living or even married to someone else. Standing for someone that is abusive. Pretty much all MLCers are abusive. Most are not physically abusive, but many are emotionally, psycologically, finanacially, abusive.

What is the logic? What is the logic of telling people to stand for someone that has done such atrocious things and whose crisis can last 10 or more years? Wouldn't it make more sense to say, unless you are a Covenat Keeper or similar, after a few years you may want to consider move one. Or something similar.

Most of us end up doing just that anyway.

I do not attach Paving The Way to anything. The article does. Why not get rid of Paving The Way and write about the LBS well-being? Like Bewildered mentioned, the term is ambigous. And like I and Treasur mentioned, if one is Paving The Way, one is doing it with a goal. The term itself implies an endgame.

I am not certain abusers and/or cheaters deserve grace, kindness and compassion. For me the abuse or cheated person does. The one in the wrong, in particular abusers? Not really. I am not saying be rude or unkind. Just that it may be better to let it go and not to interact with them.

If our actions are to matter to the MLCer, we are doing things for the MLCer, not for us.

Just maintaining dignity is good enough of ‘paving the way’, especially at the beginning of LBS’s journey, I think.   Self respect, self care, resilience, counting one’s blessings, cleaning up our own side of the street.

This. I think this is all the Paving The Way that is necessary and is LBS focussed, not MLCer or marriage.

[lawprofessor]

Anjae, I agree with you and have said more than once Paving the way is a huge waste of time in my opinion.

1.  A concept that is so loosely defined as to encompass nearly all things is not a theory or a portion of a theory or a pattern or recipe for healing or reconciling.  It's designed to be all encompassing and all inconclusive but loses meaning and applicability in doing so in my opinion.

2.  It is not the job of the LBS to make it easier or harder for the MLCer to return.  It is the job of the party who wants to return to make effort.  The LBS is supposed to have learned not to be a fixer.  So why then do we need to make it smoother for ex to return?

3.  Anything worth having is worth working for.  Human beings value what they work hard for much more than what they acquire easily.  In my opinion why go through the hell of waking up from a crisis and fixing your life only to get what you always knew you had anyway?

4.  I agree I do not understand the concept of separating RCR stander from RCR writer.

5.  If the MLCer is going to attempt to return he will do so regardless of our actions in my opinion and my experience.  I am worth the effort.  If he doesn't think so, then he does not deserve me in my opinion.

6.  I did not spend a single minute making it easier for my ex to return yet he has wanted to and actively searched for ways to return for well over 2 years now.

7.    I walked and hacked my way through hell to get to where I am now.  In the process I learned and grew.  Ex deserves the same opportunity to learn and grow and feel the same sort of pride I feel.  He can't do that if I help him by providing a paved way.  That's what his mother did and laid the seeds for this MLC.  Again in my opinion.

8. Change only lasts when one does it for herself, not with an agenda towards becoming a more attractive person to another, in my opinion.

9.In my opinion, the focus on agape love and behaviors is counter productive in healthy healing.  It pushes the LBS to skip normal healthy emotional stages like anger  so as to declare they have forgiven the MLCer and adopt a false persona of a Zen like master. You know why I can talk with my MLCer easily now?  Because I worked out my anger at the time instead of stuffing it down to erupt later.

10.  Time spent focused in any way on the MLCer is a waste of time in my opinion.  If it happens deal with it then.  Either we have impact or we don't.  You can't have it both ways.  Yes, try to conduct yourself with self respect and dignity. 

11. The opposite of agape love is not bitterness. It's indifference in my opinion.  I'm a bit tired of bitterness being used to describe those who either dont want to reconcile or those who are situationally angry. 

And I'll second Anjae's suggestion that it's of more importance (in my opinion) to write substantive things focused on the LBS rather than the MLCer.  It's their crisis after all.  If the focus were different, perhaps more people would feel this experience is ultimately a positive.

Lp

[CallingHeart]

I don't actually  remember the content specifically on "Paving the Way " and I (quite frankly) don't care to reread it now. With that said, I remember the feeling I had when reading it 4 years ago. And I was comforted by it. I probably Tried to take the meaning of Paving the Way to mean I could possibly affect an outcome but, I think that's what I needed, so I was comforted.

There's cliche' with the concept,which does complicate the idea behind it because we're not really physically working with one of those huge concrete rollers, smashing down the rubble to make the road smoother, but it is comforting to know the rubble can be rearranged to benefit us - and perhaps the wayward spouse in the end.

For those reconciled, paving the way worked wonders, right?  For those of us still left to go forward with our lives taking on a new direction outside of reconciliation, the concept differs and becomes about our own path in life.  I think "maintaining dignity" is truly on the mark in describing that paving when one is not reconciled.  Like it or not, reconciliation is extremely rare.

[Anjae]

All LP said. With a couple of side notes.

For me Agape love is universal love/love for all humanity that I translate in something as simple as be polite and civil to everyone. No need of a fancy complicate idea, just something I learned as a child.

I do not see the opposite of Agape love as indiference, because of what I wrote above.

I'm a bit tired of bitterness being used to describe those who either dont want to reconcile or those who are situationally angry. 

So am I. I would say especially LBS early on into this mess do not understand the often long, painful growth process LBS further down the road went throught. It is understandable someone not so far into their own process can find it difficult to grasp. However, when it comes to mid or old timers, even if they are Standers, it should be easy to understand.

I have no problem with anger if like LP said it is situational. It can be a great driving force foward in many ways. I see a problem if someone remains angry years down the road.

I have always said I was not angry at BD/early on, I was furious. Truly furious.

I have also always said that Mr J didn't mind it. To him it meant I still care. What he does not like one bit is that I have long stop being furious.

We were much close when I was furious. Strange, isn't it? Or not really if one thinks that anger/fury/hate are not the opposite of love.

For those reconciled, paving the way worked wonders, right?

I don't know if that is true for all people reconnecting or reconciled. Barbie did not Pave The Way. Not in my view. She made her MLCer leave, and, so far, for a number of reasons, nothing was been smooth.

MammaBear, that has long stop posting, for me was not Paving The Way, but being a doormat and competing with OW. If you want, for me, she was not thinking of her dignity, rather wanted her husband back at any cost.

It is also how I see 1trouble's efforts. Wanting the MLCer back at any cost, including personal dignity. This are my views on the matter, others may see things differently.

I think "maintaining dignity" is truly on the mark in describing that paving when one is not reconciled.

I'll go further and second Acorn that maintaining dignity is also very important when standing and for reconcilation.

Like it or not, reconciliation is extremely rare.

It is. For several reasons mentioned many times by many of us. I get a lot of heat for calling a spade a spade, but I am not going to call a spade a pen just because.

How many people reconciled since HS started, regardless of them still posting or not? Do you have numbers RCR? Both in exact numbers, or close, and in percentage?

Do not get me wrong. I love reconnections and reconciliations as much as everyone else, but I have always said most MLCer will come out of crisis and want back, but few will reconcile. I have not changed my mind. Real life and HS still support my thought.

[Treasur]

One of the things imho that this discussion highlights is that neither RCR (as the person whose experience led her to create HS and write all of those articles) nor HS posters are the same as when the articles were first written or when this community began. That is a normal thing, a good thing, a sign that as a community we learn and evolve as we learn. But it makes me wonder if we are always using that collective learning as precisely as we might.

Like any written document, the articles are a static snapshot of what was known and thought at the time. The posts here over many years are an unfolding legacy of information and shared learning through different eyes. The risk in treating the articles as 'gospel' tbh is no different than treating ShockSis's posts of her MLC experience as the same. It is I think ingenious to completely separate the experience of the writer from what is written. The intent is a positive one but when humans in pain are trying to make sense of the incomprehensible, they are drawn to wanting answers and certainty where it does not exist. RCR and ShockSis's experience and perspective, and indeed our own, are just that and no more than that.

Many of us are profoundly grateful that this place exists, that RCR and others came together to create it. For many of us there was a time when it probably saved our lives and/or our sanity. And many of us reach our own conclusions about MLC and surviving as an LBS through the lens of our own character and experience. Which means that we don't always agree with some of the core principles or material. Tbh I have often thought that a structured revisiting of some of the core material to expand it to include wider perspectives and experienced other than RCRs might be a constructive thing although it might not be a commitment that RCR might want to take on as a mother of young children in a restored marriage. 

I agree with most of what LP said. I think the people coming here come with commonalities. I think with time as their individual situation unfolds we see more of the differences. But the initial starting place is relatively predictable...people are in shock, pain, bewildered and desperate in a situation that threatens the things and people they value most in their lives.. Which makes them vulnerable and not always thinking so clearly as they might otherwise do. And LBS seem on the whole to be kind, conscientious fixers in a situation where their spouse is at best lying and at worst consciously manipulating them. And there is as predictable a script for most LBS as for most MLCers in the early days at least.

I honestly believe that bc of that and bc of the facts that we all know make some things more likely and others less so, we should actively and explicitly prioritise the wellbeing of the LBS over the wellbeing of a marriage or the MLCer. Most LBS instinctively do the opposite for quite a while so HS doesn't need to do that. And we should be cautious about materials that can easily shift that balance bc it increases the risk of further damage to the LBS.

The sad truth of most of the experiences here is that they did not look like RCR's personal experience. That there are indeed very few healthy restored marriages after this experience, for a variety of reasons. And there is a lot of practical and emotional damage and destruction along the way. No amount of understanding MLC or compassion for MLCers changes those practical realities. But what an LBS does can make a difference to some of them.

Bc what is 100% sure is that the LBS needs to survive an extremely traumatic life altering experience that few people in RL will validate or understand. And they need to do that completely regardless of what happens to their marriage or spouse or family. And they need to stumble towards a healthy post-crisis life whatever that means to them and whatever happens in their situation.

Clean clear unambiguous language matters even more imho when people are distressed, confused and vulnerable, when they have been at least psychologically abused. Facts matter. Simple principles of self-care and self-protection matter.  Respect for difference matters. Time matters. Explaining what some of the terms we use in simple ways matters as does explaining what they might look like in practice and how people might take the first practical steps to survive, then deal with and then heal and rebuild. What we learn as we struggle matters. Accepting that we learn at different speeds and find different solution matters.

We talk about putting the LBS first but sometimes our wish for better endings for painful stories can lead us inadvertently to not always do that. I think it is important to keep reminding ourselves to do so. Jmo.

[Couragedearheart]

I still super new to this... so for me currently PTW means several things.
1) talk in terms of me and how I am developing Self...Ie “I realized I’m codependent, that’s unhealthy so I’m working on it.”
2) talk about my relationship with god, and casting my cares on him and his love.
3) talk about forgiveness, how I learned to forgive ones Self and that forgiveness can always be asked for.
4) GAL-baby steps but I’m working on it.
5)express my earnest desire to “get to know him once he’s done figuring himself out, and how long I’ve prayed for him to feel loved and safe enough to finally express himself in our marriage.”
6) told him it was perfectly okay, to not make any decisions about our marriage while he sorts himself out.
7) explained I am sorting myself out as well, and once we are done we can have a chance to meet the new people we have become.
talked about how yes physically we are 2 different people, we married and had god tie our souls together forever.
9) identified and apologized every time I realized my contribution to our marriage needing work. Attempt to change what needed changing.

[Nerissa]

11. The opposite of agape love is not bitterness. It's indifference in my opinion.  I'm a bit tired of bitterness being used to describe those who either dont want to reconcile or those who are situationally angry. 


Bitterness is about pain and anger.  I think it’s often trotted out by men about women who are not lying down and taking whatever is being doled out.  I think it’s often used misogynistically and I think we should be careful of perpetuating its use about women in that belittling way as it can be a kind of internalised misogyny.  It discounts and dismisses unheard fury which makes people uncomfortable.  It’s rarely used to refer to men.  Their anger is justified maybe?  A righteous grudge?

The kind of permanent sour faced bitterness inferred is a heck of a way down the road for most lbs at any rate.

I also think forgiveness is overrated.  I think it has more to do with the comfort of the onlooker than anything else.  Forgiving too soon, especially when coupled  religious overtones or exhortions  is just a ‘spiritual
Bypass’. - a ‘painting by numbers’ kind of forgiveness without genuine understanding or  acceptance.  In fact burying anger is probably far more likely to lead to debilitating bitterness sometime in the future because the feelings remain unheard and unprocessed.

Women are already expected to carry out most emotional Labour for no recognition.  We are encouraged to think of others’needs and feelings.  I rebut the idea that because I am bloody furious I will also be bitter.

Here are the Merriam Webster  definitions of bitter.  Are they so very bad? 

: distasteful or distressing to the mind : GALLING
a bitter sense of shame
2 : marked by intensity or severity:
a : accompanied by severe pain or suffering
a bitter death
b : being relentlessly determined : VEHEMENT
a bitter partisan
c : exhibiting intense animosity
bitter enemies
d(1) : harshly reproachful
bitter complaints
(2) : marked by cynicism and rancor
bitter contempt
was still bitter about not being chosen
e : intensely unpleasant especially in coldness or rawness
a bitter wind
3 : caused by or expressive of severe pain, grief, or regret
bitter tears

[Helpingme!]

I think the biggest thing of paving the way is for us. The LBS. It has nothing to do with paving the way for our MLCer.
It's not being a doormat or trying to nice them back. IMO it's not about them at all. It's for us.
If we don't fix ourselves , it will be impossible to reconcile with our spouse if and when that happens, or a new relationship with someone else won't work either.

We have to heal. We have to get our life back. Irreguardless of who we spend the rest of our life with. Or maybe we choose to stay alone.  If we don't find peace in our life  , we will stay miserable.

[Acorn]

I also think forgiveness is overrated.  I think it has more to do with the comfort of the onlooker than anything else.  Forgiving too soon, especially when coupled  religious overtones or exhortions  is just a ‘spiritual Bypass’. - a ‘painting by numbers’ kind of forgiveness without genuine understanding or  acceptance.     

You statement sounds rather harsh and skeptical to me.
Forgiveness is not rated high enough in my view.  Personally, it has been one of the most important elements in our rebuilding and reconciling.

What you refer to as ‘religious overtones’ is a necessary component in my forgiveness and I make no apologies for it.  Because I have been forgiven much, I also forgive my neighbour. 

‘Do unto others’ has religious overtone for sure.  That does not make it a spiritual bypass.  Rather, it is a spiritual inspiration. 

I view forgiveness as one of the major stones that paves the way. 

[Treasur]

I am only recently starting to chew on what forgiveness means to me in my situation.
Tbh acceptance without hatred was a hard enough job for a while.
And I honestly think we need to resolve some of our own trauma and get a little strength and time/distance first before we push ourselves too hard to try to forgive. If only bc initially we might not even quite know the reality of what we have to try to forgive lol.

It is imho extremely hard to forgive people who are still actively hurting you and who show no regret or concern about it at all. There are important rewards that come with forgiveness...but I also think it comes when we feel ready and want it. And that's ok too.