[Acorn]

I am only recently starting to chew on what forgiveness means to me in my situation.
Tbh acceptance without hatred was a hard enough job for a while.
And I honestly think we need to resolve some of our own trauma and get a little strength and time/distance first before we push ourselves too hard to try to forgive. If only bc initially we might not even quite know the reality of what we have to try to forgive lol.

It is imho extremely hard to forgive people who are still actively hurting you and who show no regret or concern about it at all. There are important rewards that come with forgiveness...but I also think it comes when we feel ready and want it. And that's ok too.

I agree!
Practice love and forgiveness for self first in order to learn what they really are.
That process take as long as it takes, just as you said.

[Nas]

It is imho extremely hard to forgive people who are still actively hurting you and who show no regret or concern about it at all.

I agree.  I would go so far as to say it's hard to forgive someone who is still actively hurting you even when they might show signs of regret.  They're still doing the hurting and one of the consequences of purposefully hurting someone or detrimentally affecting their finances or other aspects of their lives is that they will be upset with you. 

That to me is another problem with the understanding of "paving the way."  Paving the way for them to be forgiven someday if/when they choose to stop the emotional/psychological/financial abuse - how does one even go about that? (I don't include physical abuse - that to me is a level beyond, and I count my blessings I've never had to face it and would not know how to advise how to deal with it and won't presume to even think I can speak on a subject that big.)

[9393roo]

My 2 cents about forgiveness and paving the way. 

I feel that in my situation I’m being faced more and more with trying to peel off the many, many layers of forgiveness.  Just when I have peeled more off and think I am at place that I can honestly say “I forgive you”. More things come my way that I need to face.  For me lately forgiveness is parallel with understanding.  Understanding what happened and why it happened.  I have noticed especially in the last month the more my H wakes up, the more I am able to understand this was all about him and his issues.  He has yet to genuinely say “I’m sorry” and take full responsibility.  I have yet to say “I forgive you”. I think it will come slow and steady.

I could not pave the way with a broken heart.  The more my heart mends with work on myself the more I am able to pave the way.   I feel that once his active hurting me (replay) stopped, I have been able to have more compassion and empathy for him.  I feel like I am at a point now where I am maturing and he is following. 

[Ready2Transform]

I want to compel RCR the writer for a minute. Because I agree personally with a lot of what Anjae and LP have said for us in the long term, no longer standing pool (my message here is not to contrast what either of you have said, but to point out something different). BUT, long term standing, covenant keeping without reconnecton, being divorced while standing, etc. is not where your expertise lies.

A concept that is so loosely defined as to encompass nearly all things is not a theory or a portion of a theory or a pattern or recipe for healing or reconciling.  It's designed to be all encompassing and all inconclusive but loses meaning and applicability in doing so in my opinion.

I second this. And not just for personal reasons. I think you should consider that making the Paving the Way message too vague (or any of your message, for that matter) is going to be bad for website SEO, and therefore not effectively place in Google so those who most want the message can find it, and find this site.

The forum itself has become more diverse, with everything from Covenant Keepers to non-standing remarried LBSs on either end of the spectrum. People can choose to continue posting, sharing knowledge, and building relationships, but that doesn't necessarily mean your message has to adapt to fit everyone's situation. It's better if it doesn't.

Looking at some of the other standing resources: the Steinkamps and Rejoice Marriage Ministries make no bones about being Covenant Keepers. MLC, abusive marriage, 2 week LBS or 2 decade LBS, doesn't matter. They don't change the message to adapt to the audience, but stay on-target and let those that either initially fit but change fade off the site, or repel those that know right away. They know their audience will read and re-read every article, buy the resources, attend the retreats. That's where they put their focus. Same with Joe Beam. He focuses on the limerent affairs because he had one. He's big investment for most LBSs, but he puts a time limit on it (4 years, if I remember) so they're aware there is a cutoff point to his expertise.

Neither of these are "better" resources - not what I'm saying - but they are good models of reaching the right audience and not swaying focus from what they know best. I think you are the perfect resource for a very specific audience, and I would hate to see that get lost by trying to please everyone (even if I am not the audience any longer). Don't second guess what your experience has given you to teach, because it is that experience, not all of ours as individuals, that will most help those it's meant for.

I don't think you got "lucky" with Chuck. I think you did define the kind of MLCer he was, and your behavior with him *did* impact whether you reconnected. I resonated a lot with your message when I found you - more than any other site I'd come across, and believe me, like most of us I was reading them all 24/7. My guy was a clinging boomerang, out less than a year, hadn't filed for divorce, and seemingly was going to be financially responsible at some point. I felt I knew him better than anyone and had the space to research and Pave. And yes, I was Paving for a return and felt my research via your work and the anecdotes from the forum gave me confidence - BUT - I did not hold ANY of them responsible to guarantee a return! It was my Knowing that kept me going, and the writing just gave me hope and encouragement.

My guy changed types, my healing turned more inward, and "it is what it is" (yuck, sorry!). Do I think you need to change your writings to reflect my outcome? Absolutely not. If I want to tell my story, there's my option. It is of value to people who resonate most with it. Anjae, LP, everyone else here - your stories have the same effect. They are YOUR teachings. And many here have gained so much from them.

But RCR, your story shouldn't be an exercise in crowdsourcing, in my opinion. You know what you lived and what you can most benefit the world with. Get clear on that, who the message is intended for, and don't worry about the rest of us. We're fine. Your true message and writing will draw out the keywords that will get you in the search bar of the people who are hurting most at this moment. It's okay if it isn't for everyone. This isn't an argument about whether people should stand or not. It's one woman's story of triumph "when your spouse is having a MLC and you don't want a divorce."

"I can't make reconciliation guarantees, but I will throw you a lifeline," - taken right off of the front page, says it all. That lifeline helped many of us, and that's what we came for. You don't have to heal us. We're helping each other with that.

[xyzcf]

Ready2Transform..I wish I was good at finding emojii's because I would send one to you of an applause and standing ovation. You just nailed it!!!!!

No site is going to be able to be all things for all people. It is impossible to be that.

I see though that people believe that they are "right" and that anyone who doesn't agree with them is "wrong."

It is condescending and hurtful to those with different beliefs and values and shuts down any respectful dialogue or debate.

RCR, your site has been tremendously helpful to thousands of people. You never guaranteed that the MLCer would return.
What I find missing now on HS, is understanding what MLC is and any empathy shown for the MLCer is considered to be a bad thing. Words like "doormat" and "not being detached" are used for those of us who continue to have hope of healing in our families...that healing doesn't necessarily mean the marriage will reconcile...but it is important in my mind that healing takes place for all members of the family.

Change happens. It is inevitable and we grow through adding to the  body of knowledge.

Perhaps it is important to remember, there isn't a "right" or "wrong" answer.. each situation is different and each LBSer is coming from their own experience, values and beliefs.

I follow this thread and wonder..is it really so important? The term "paving the way" creates in some people such rage....

I don't really care what you call it..doesn't matter. It won't change how I interact with my husband. Change the term if that pleases people..the concept, as we each see it in our own families will remain regardless of what you call it.

[Nas]

You don't have to heal us. We're helping each other with that.

Very well said, R2T.

I just want to say that not long ago someone questioned why people stay on this site for many years after they've stopped standing or hoping for their MLCer to recover/return.

And this statement is the exact answer to that question. 

[Nerissa]

I also think forgiveness is overrated.  I think it has more to do with the comfort of the onlooker than anything else.  Forgiving too soon, especially when coupled  religious overtones or exhortions  is just a ‘spiritual Bypass’. - a ‘painting by numbers’ kind of forgiveness without genuine understanding or  acceptance.     

You statement sounds rather harsh and skeptical to me.
Forgiveness is not rated high enough in my view.  Personally, it has been one of the most important elements in our rebuilding and reconciling.

What you refer to as ‘religious overtones’ is a necessary component in my forgiveness and I make no apologies for it.  Because I have been forgiven much, I also forgive my neighbour. 

‘Do unto others’ has religious overtone for sure.  That does not make it a spiritual bypass.  Rather, it is a spiritual inspiration. 

I view forgiveness as one of the major stones that paves the way.

Does it sound harsh?  Maybe.  Perhaps I should more accurately have written that forgiveness is often misunderstood rather than overrated.  Scepticism?  Well I don’t believe that’s a bad thing:

“Skepticism (American English) or scepticism (British English, Australian English, and Canadian English) is generally a questioning attitude or doubt towards one or more items of putative knowledge or belief or dogma.[1][2] It is often directed at domains, such as the supernatural, morality (moral skepticism), theism (skepticism about the existence of God), or knowledge (skepticism about the possibility of knowledge, or of certainty).[3] Formally, skepticism as a topic occurs in the context of philosophy, particularly epistemology, although it can be applied to any topic such as politics, religion, and pseudoscience.”

What exactly to we mean by forgiveness, philosophically and psychically.  (Religion isn’t necessary for forgiveness although it is integral to all religious philosophy).

My feeling is that forgiveness is a deeply complex concept and it can be bandied about  as if those who are not ready to give it or who think deeply about whether they are willing or able to are somehow ‘less than’.   People whose self esteem is battered probably aren’t strong enough to give meaningful forgiveness so that needs to be restored first.  Perhaps unwillingness to forgive is the attempt of a damaged ego (ego in the psychological sense -a sense of selfhood - not the Buddhist) to restore itself.  To protest and to say “I matter”.  It might be a good step on the way to acceptance, which I believe is a more realistic aim, at least for a while.  I feel fairly sure at the moment that granting forgiveness, for me, needs me to be a whole person again first.  And forgiveness is far easier where there is remorse.  Is remorse essential?  I’d guess it is for many.

There is the question of whether complete forgiveness is achievable - that the unconscious never forgets and is timeless, and that the injury can pop up as fresh as ever for as long as we live so that ambivalence might be the best we can achieve.

I  believe that it is tempting to claim forgiveness and believe we have forgiven when we are desperate to have our marriages restored,  when in reality we have not.  Given the rather grumpy comportment for many months,  of many returned spouses, forgiveness seems to require a forbearance and goodness I don’t think I possess.  I remember saying I had  forgiven, and I meant it but it transpires thst what I really meant was that I would forgive if he stayed and behaved like a proper husband.

I’m not bashing forgiveness.  The world would be better with more of it but I think there is too
Much unthinking pressure to forgive and less than perfect understanding of what forgiveness might look like.

[Nerissa]

I don't think you got "lucky" with Chuck. I think you did define the kind of MLCer he was, and your behavior with him *did* impact whether you reconnected. I resonated a lot with your message when I found you - more than any other site I'd come across, and believe me, like most of us I was reading them all 24/7. My guy was a clinging boomerang, out less than a year, hadn't filed for divorce, and seemingly was going to be financially responsible a

i agree. I think it is fairly clear to the reader that RCR always had her act together and had boundaries.  I also don’t think the site can be all things to all people.  We have to take responsibility for our own responses to the advice and get individual Professional help if we need it. 

There are other sites that take a tougher approach that are easily found. If we stay here it is because it offers something we appreciate.

[lawprofessor]

No site is going to be able to be all things for all people. It is impossible to be that.

This is something we can agree on. 

Many of the problems begin in that this site tries to be all things to all people muddying the message at times to unrecognizability.

I don't see anyone trying to be right and declaring others wrong.  I see people offering different viewpoints rather respectfully.  That's one of the things I get from this site, exposure to a wide variety of opinions.

Empathy is fine and I don't see anyone suggesting empathy is wrong.  I see a line being drawn between being empathetic and being a pretzeled doormat. 

I also don't see anyone in a rage.  No one is yelling or calling names.  It's simple mature dialog between adults who were asked for a personal interpretation of views.  Because it's personal, there are differences.  Some speak more directly than others.  It's their style which may not be what another would choose but they have a right to express themselves in the style true to themselves as long as they are not insulting or abusing another just as softer people aren't asked to adjust their style of speaking to being more direct. 

As with all things in life it's about one's perspective.  And this time you are absolutely correct  that no site can be all things to all people.  RCR would have to define for herself where she wants this site to go if she chooses to change direction.  I don't really see that happening to one extreme or the other though.

Lp

[xyzcf]

I see a line being drawn between being empathetic and being a pretzeled doormat. 

The semantics.....who gets to judge that a poster is showing empathy (by perhaps "paving the way") or is a pretzeled doormat?

Why do we use the word doormat...all words are interpreted differently by each of us and there are negative and positive meanings attached to vocabulary..perhaps words like doormat cause some standers to cringe?

If we attach so much meaning to the phrases used on HS, ( and there is quite a specific vocabulary used)and they cause us so much distress then what's the point of writing anything at all?

Perhaps I am more "sensitive" to the tone..it feels like rage to me, perhaps that isn't the right word...but it doesn't feel supportive of other's who see things differently. Since I am very strong as well in my own beliefs, just like Velika who started this "dialogue" and felt that "paving the way" traumatizes LBSers, I "hear" positions taken that don't allow for dialogue, but tell me that my way is wrong.

Emphatically stating that it is very rare for MLCers to return home, even though I will agree that to be true and is perhaps wise for people who are not committed to standing to hear....but for those of us who continue to stand it feels harsh and tends to make me feel like I am a doormat for choosing how I treat my spouse...which is not what most HS posters would agree is "right" and which is why I don't post any updates of what has and is happening in our relationship.