[Trustandlove]

Hello all -- me again,

I just re-read what I had written 18 months ago, as I'm seeing the effects on my children more again.  My children are young adults now; mid-twenties.  And when I think that they were little children when this all started!

What is happening now is that my former H is suddenly badgering, for lack of a better word, one of my sons.  He has texted saying "I don't know what I have done to you in the last 6 months, why are you blanking me?" or words to that effect.  Followed by "I would do literally anything for you".  That last bit made my son furious.

Back in the spring this son had finally had enough, and said that he didn't want to see his father any more; he has tried for years to say how he feels, but has felt shot down every single time.  He now looks at these texts with anger -- saying that how on earth can his F not think that he has not done anything wrong? 

My daughter has also had enough; she had an incident back in the summer that left her in tears saying "I can't do this any more, I can't take the disappointment". 

Other son is going through so much of his own heartbreak that he has no time to deal with H; he is starting to realise that what happened when they were children has had a profound effect on him -- his father ditched all responsibilities, and my S tends to take on far more than he needs to.  It really is a mess.  This S did see him over the holidays, and it was just more of the same.  Former H was nice to him, but boasted that he was doing well in business, and then got them token gifts from a cheap store.  Just no sense whatsoever. 

I just try to be there for my children; I can't do anything and, unlike what HT got, my former H hasn't asked me for help.  If he were to, my response would be pretty much exactly what HT wrote -- so thank you, HT, I may have cause to use that!

I'm not writing for any particular advice; I'm the oldest old-timer here, I think.  But all this has made me profoundly sad again; nothing has changed at all.   I cried over this for the first time in quite a while. 

My suspicion is that something has (again) gone wrong in his life, so he is grasping for the children. That kind of thing is what we experienced before.  This time I have reason to suspect that he is no longer with OW6, who he married, although he hasn't said anything to the children. 

We can go on about them swirling around in the mess until they really do decide to look at themselves and do the work, but I guess in many cases, at least in mine, nothing changes, and my children are left to pay the price. 

I don't want to frighten anyone who is early on in this process, I do believe that redemption and reconciliation are possible.  There is much wisdom on this site, and it has helped me beyond measure with both this crisis and in so many other areas of life.

x

[Trustandlove]

I should add that the son that is being "badgered" has an assortment of special needs, particularly with regards to language.  He finds it hard to regulate his emotions as well, and often just screams "I don't know" when he can't find another way to express himself.  This is something that H never really got to grips with, even when things were "normal".  And now former H has been gone so long that he really has no idea. 

That son presents very well, and has done well in life so far despite everything, which, paradoxically doesn't help much in this case. 

I'm just sad that they have to go through this, I'm sad that any of us ever had to. 

[FaithWalker]

The collateral damage when it comes to our children definitely does affect them years on.  I see this with my 20 something's too.  I'm worried about my D and her new BF.  She may have subconsciously picked someone like her F.

S18 was upset the other day because his F had a very deep, meaningful conversation with D's BF when meeting him at Thanksgiving.  He said to me "M, in my 18 years of life, F has never once gone that deep with me."  It was heartbreaking to hear and to see that he was upset by this.  He dislikes D's BF immensely, and this just added some fuel to the fire for him.

It seems that years on T&L, that your MLCer still views himself as the "victim".  It's so hard for our kiddos because their parents should be the mature ones.  Sadly, this doesn't seem to be the case in MLCers.

[xyzcf]

It really does have a huge impact on our children.

WE really need to be the stable one for them.

Good to hear from you Trustandlove

[limitless]

My kids are all in their 30’s now. (They were 16 and 20 when their father left).

Their relationship with their Dad is very strained.  He tries to push his new/old wife on them. The two of them have this delusion that they are all a family. 

He lies, tells half truths.  He tries to make them feel guilty. They dread spending time with him. 

None of my kids are married.  My twins each have relationships.  My older daughter is single.  I hope that they haven't been disillusioned with marriage.  Marriage is a wonderful thing.  Not everyone will have an MLC.

Their Dad is a lost cause. 

It’s all unfortunate. 

Nice to hear from you gals

L

[MadLuv]

I also see the damage to the kids as adults. My son appreciates me more, my daughter who had her father on a pedestal has disconnected with us all. She has anxiety and the situation is easier for her to escape and avoid like her father. My XH is a always the victim. He is comfortable there and he uses it to escape and he uses it to establish new relationships in his crisis.

I hate that my kids now look at their father as something mentally they may have in them. If that makes sense.  When you once thought your parent was a stable force that gave you confidence and  strength, now becomes a flaw and a lie.  In life you should always be able to count on your parents love and support. Scary to think you never knew them. Much like we ourselves view how we see them now, so do our children.

[kikki]

I'm seeing the effects on my late 20's sons here too.  One has lived overseas for 5 years, one for a year, and the youngest is heading overseas in a couple of months time.  I felt very lucky that they were all here (including the girlfriends) for Christmas and a week or two afterwards.  In recent years, they have been busy focussing on themselves, their careers, their own relationships and friends, rather than their Dad being much of a presence in their lives.  He wasn't able to be such a destructive force as when they were teens.  Their time with him consisted of occasional meals, lasting a couple of hours at most - while their Dad presented them with his new superficial, glossy life filled with shiny expensive things.  I completely understand that they want a 'normal' and stable father, especially when they have 50% of his genetics, and all of the potential implications that brings. And because he abandoned them as teens, they all seemed to have negotiated some sort of new relationship with him as young adults, while I got very used to not saying a thing, hoping for the best, while knowing the likelihood of them being let down once again, was a very real potential.
They seem to be pretty good at keeping him at arms length emotionally, and expecting things to only go so deep with him - a reasonable place to have your expectations at.  They have given up trying to discuss things more deeply with MLC him, and it is clear that an apology to his sons will never exit his lips.
I noticed a shift in that dynamic this year. Their Dad suddenly seemed to want to reach out to them, not in any meaningful way for them, but for himself.  He turned 61 this year and despite the gloss, his life appears devoid of anyone that could be described as genuine.  So with them all being home, it meant a lot of negotiating dinners - as we suddenly had a lot of dinners to navigate around that he wanted the boys involved in too. 
I initially assumed that maybe he was becoming more normal (after all, it has been 13 years), and perhaps was realising how much he had missed out on by going awol all of those years ago.  Which meant that I spent time talking firmly to myself about learning to share the boys with him, when I had never really had to do that much before. 
But sadly, the cracks quickly showed.  The boys say very little - but the two youngest say enough for me to know that things are not great - their Dad's mood swings are huge, and he often makes them feel very uncomfortable, and they call him  'a grumpy old man' and they realise how his 'negative, controlling opinions have impacted them over the years'.  One said that it's good that he can no longer aim that at me, and said 'someone else will be getting it now' - meaning the OW. 
It is always reassuring to hear that I have always been, and will continue to be home for them.  Even though it still makes me very sad that any of us had to experience this horror. 
I find the girlfriends are the ones that will often tell me the most.  Not that I have any interest in seeking information, just that they have a need to share their own experience with me, and in doing so, their understanding of how strange the shift in personality and behaviour must have been for us all, as they themselves have now seen the mask fall right off.
This happened when middle son's girlfriend said that her parents had sent a very small Christmas gift to my ex-H (I had been given a lovely gift box from them) and she said that she felt very awkward giving it to him, and instantly regretted it, as apparently he became very angry and verbally abusive, and told her to 'never, ever do that again'. 
Luckily all three of the boys were there, and told their Dad to stop.  She went outside and middle son went out to be with her and was absolutely furious that his dad would have done that to her (that same old behaviour we have all experienced since BD). 
Apparently, my exH then came out to talk to her, no apology, no acknowledgement, but started quizzing her about unrelated 'stuff' in a happy happy joy joy way.  She said it was so false and awkward, and she has never liked him or felt close to him, but had always put up with him for middle son's sake.
What a mess of their own (MLCer's) making.  I had hoped for a happier outcome for my sons (in regards to their Dad). 

[Trustandlove]

So lovely to see you pop up on this thread, kikki!  -- I always felt like we were in the trenches together.  I am glad that your boys have good relationships of their own, and it is a given that you have always been the stable one for them.  And continue to be.

Since I last wrote I found out that my former H had been to see one son, and that this son finally got up the courage to say what he thought.

This is all volunteered by my S, by the way, after the fact -- I didn't know that they had met.

Apparently former H had started out saying that he had screwed up by leaving them, but that had quickly descended into blaming me again.  S said that he told his dad to stop, and just listen.  That H had never put them first. He said more as well, but I wasn't there.   S said that after the dinner he reflected and realised that nothing had changed; he said that H had seemed a bit desperate (grasping?).  S said that he had no empathy whatsoever for them. 

The one thing that particularly grated was that he told S that he had left because of me, that he didn't want to be with me, not that he didn't want them.  And he has then for the past goodness knows how many years shown them that he has absolutely and completely left them as well.  It's bad enough telling your kids that you just don't want to be with their mother  (i.e. he just wants what he wants, when he wants it, and so on), but to try to say that it's my fault (apparently I didn't let him see them -- anyone who might have known me then knows that I bent over backwards to try to include H in everything, probably even when I shouldn't have, that he had complete and unfettered access, etc.) is beyond the pale. 

Sorry, that sounded a bit vitriolic, it still makes me angry just writing it.  And also because it confirms that it really is a lost cause...

My experience has always been that this kind of thing means that something isn't good in his life; we may or may not eventually find out what it is this time.

Why he feels the need to blame me after so many, many years is completely bonkers.  As far as we can tell he has got And I feel so empty again, pretty much realising that the selfish qualities (that we often here compare to narcissism) that came to the forefront at BD have never  changed, he has got exactly nowhere. 

I, too, had hoped for a happier outcome for them, but that just isn't to be.  They were small when he left, there just isn't any relationship left to salvage there....

Thank you to everyone for reading!

[Trustandlove]

I just realised that I need to clarify -- the S that I said that my former H was badgering is not the one who he met for dinner, that I wrote about above.  I need to find a way to identify them better without giving exact ages!  Perhaps  just S1 and S2 -- so S2 was the one who was being "badgered", and S1 had dinner with him a few days ago. 

[Ready2Transform]

This happened when middle son's girlfriend said that her parents had sent a very small Christmas gift to my ex-H (I had been given a lovely gift box from them) and she said that she felt very awkward giving it to him, and instantly regretted it, as apparently he became very angry and verbally abusive, and told her to 'never, ever do that again'. 
Luckily all three of the boys were there, and told their Dad to stop.  She went outside and middle son went out to be with her and was absolutely furious that his dad would have done that to her (that same old behaviour we have all experienced since BD). 
Apparently, my exH then came out to talk to her, no apology, no acknowledgement, but started quizzing her about unrelated 'stuff' in a happy happy joy joy way.  She said it was so false and awkward, and she has never liked him or felt close to him, but had always put up with him for middle son's sake.

    There are no words.

I've "seen" so many of your children become adults via this forum, and it makes me sad for you all that your families still have to navigate this. But it speaks volumes that you've all stepped up and done the work of two parents and prepared them for a life where hopefully none of them tip into MLC themselves.