[Busy_Bee]

Not Your Monkey,
 

I have a question. When you all talk about "actions" being needed, what exactly are you talking about?

My X is a clinger, he was talking about him making a mistake and asking to take him back for many many times ( I couldn't remember how many), but always ended up going back to make the same mistakes. Would I believe him again? no way. I need more then his words.

Your H is currently doing what he wants without any explanation ( ex. I want to have OW and I will have one) Is he just a jerk or he is in MLC? We don;t know your story.
You do.

[Not Applicable]

You are out of line suggesting my H is a jerk. You are completely incorrect that he has done anything without an explanation. In fact, I probably have gotten a lot more detailed explanation than most people on here and so that is why I have never had any doubt that he is in MLC and I have made my choice to stand with as much information as possible. It's just the explanation is none of your business.

I share my full story with those who I trust. Period. The details of an MLC are not fluff. They aren't silly superficial things like shark eyes and buzz cuts and changes in music tastes and clothes.  This is a serious, life changing, horrific experience for both MLCer and LBS and often other parties built on top of a history of horrific child abuse and the fact is I am not going to put it all out there to have it ripped to shreds and let anonymous people on the internet cause me more trauma than I have been through already by judging the choices both of us have made years before and during this crisis that have led us to where we are today. It is quite clear at least one person I trusted with my story breached that trust and gossiped to others and there are some twisted and false rumors floating about in PMs about me as evidenced by some nasty veiled remarks people have made publicly. That's enough abuse, so why should I put up with any more than that? I actually had planned to tell my whole story here someday, but after these public breaches of my privacy I don't think I ever will. A few bad apples spoil the barrel.  Is that so damn hard for you to understand?

That said, this is a man that I love and have compassion for and who is the kind of person if you stand by him, he will stand by you and I am that way too. So if you cross my H, you cross me. If you hurt my H, you hurt me. If you disrespect my H, you disrespect me. My H has recently affirmed his commitment to me and trust in me, both in words and actions, but he is not yet at a point where he can say what I want to hear about his MLC actions because his MLC is NOT over. My H is a very lucky MLCer, because he has a very devoted wife who has earned that commitment and trust both before and during MLC.  And I am proud of that. 

[OffRoad]

NYM,
Please go back and read what busy bee said. While the first sentence may not have reflected what you believe to have conveyed at some point on some thread somewhere ( I can't say I recall seeing a post from you to the contrary of what busy bee wrote, especially since your name has changed several times and I believe you said you has no thread of your own-I could be wrong on that, but said post well could exist on some thread that was missed by many), the second part merely asked IF your H is just a jerk or in MLC, that we don't know your story (true) and that you do (true). This implies that you are in a better place to determine if he is just a jerk or is in MLC. No accusations of being a jerk, just a question.

As to your question, words or actions can be lies, in all honesty. A person can do what looks like nice things for you (the generic you), but they do it for their own benefit, not because they care about you. Most people have experience with verbal lies, not so much action lies. For me, there was a time when at home mlc ExH brought me food on a regular basis. And slurpees. I could have construed that as proof he still loved me. Not so much, though. He still had to run eventually.

I might conjecture that for the MLCer, when the words match the actions and the words and actions match what the LBS WANTS from a relationship, then it will feel like Acknowledgement, Accountabiltiy, and Acceptance. If the Apology comes at that point, it might be believed. Just an apology without substance means little to nothing. My 2 cents.

[SteelSpine]

Veering off topic, but OMG NYM- he got rid of the OW??

[Penelope2018]

NYM,
Please go back and read what busy bee said. While the first sentence may not have reflected what you believe to have conveyed at some point on some thread somewhere ( I can't say I recall seeing a post from you to the contrary of what busy bee wrote, especially since your name has changed several times and I believe you said you has no thread of your own-I could be wrong on that, but said post well could exist on some thread that was missed by many), the second part merely asked IF your H is just a jerk or in MLC, that we don't know your story (true) and that you do (true). This implies that you are in a better place to determine if he is just a jerk or is in MLC. No accusations of being a jerk, just a question.

As to your question, words or actions can be lies, in all honesty. A person can do what looks like nice things for you (the generic you), but they do it for their own benefit, not because they care about you. Most people have experience with verbal lies, not so much action lies. For me, there was a time when at home mlc ExH brought me food on a regular basis. And slurpees. I could have construed that as proof he still loved me. Not so much, though. He still had to run eventually.

I might conjecture that for the MLCer, when the words match the actions and the words and actions match what the LBS WANTS from a relationship, then it will feel like Acknowledgement, Accountabiltiy, and Acceptance. If the Apology comes at that point, it might be believed. Just an apology without substance means little to nothing. My 2 cents.

It took me a long time to realize this too. I mean I knew it in the back of my mind but it took  me a while to truly come to terms with the fact that he would say anything and even do minor routines from the past just to keep me hanging on. I stand corrected now in that actions don't mean much either from these people. Mine did the same as yours, he would bring me a meal from our (previous) favorite restaurant and a tea from McD's almost every day and it made me feel like he still cared in some way but really it was just a manipulation tactic or even pity. When I pull away, out come the "I love you," "I miss you," "Come home," messages. They always have an ulterior motive and it has nothing to do with your benefit, ever. I learned that the hard way and it's not something I could ever share here because it's really embarrassing how he used me. They're very, very deceitful.

[Anjae]

Seems to me too - which I think is shown in the discussion so far - that if being a healthy human is the outcome, then the discussion has three aspects.
Which of the 4 A's WE need to DO to be healthy ourselves?

For me, Acceptance. We can't change what is going on.

Which of them we believe our MLCer needs to DO to be healthy?
(Assuming that some kind of thinking/feeling shift is necessary for either one before any kind of DO is possible.)

All 4. In the MLCer's case Acceptance is accepting they did what they did.

And I suppose if there is any interaction betweeen our 4 A's and their 4 A's? If we need to receive things from them or indeed they from us for any kind of healing?

I don't know. The matter is a bit above my paygrade and it has also been too many years for me. The whole thing is a faint memory. I am, however, in favour of restorative justice. For me that would be Mr J giving me all the money he owns me and legally has to.

That does not require any interaction between us, other than bank details or a check.


When I mean actions matter and not words, I am talking about consistent actions. Agree with OffRoad, at a point the words have to match the actions and both need to be consistent.

[barbiedoll]

Seems I may be the odd one out here . I needed words without question. The 4 A's were and are vital in my journey forward with my husband . Without them..I never would have continued to try to reconcile or fix this mess. I cannot even imagine how some (most) LBS seem to feel "words are meaningless". Without "words" would I ever allowed my husband back into our home??  NEVER. My husbands "actions" in our entire marriage were always solid, positive and responsible. He always "did" the right things . But the monster-words out of his mouth changed who I am , how I trust, how I feel about relationships, how I love and even how I parent. His "words " changed my entire world.

Acknowledgement - Without acknowledging the pain, deep life altering hurt in me and my daughters ...I don't want him in my life. He is not the kind of "man" I could ever love again. If he cannot comprehend the full weight of his actions, his words ...he can continue to live in his truck and find himself another OW.

Accountability - Hearing "blame" ...is my #1 trigger.  It took almost 4 years to get the reactivity under control. I heard blame, even when there was none...according to 2 therapists. I was "hearing thru a wound". If he is unable to voice words of accountability, to own his sh*t...how will I ever know ?  My intuition is on shakey ground...he needs to use his big boy words, speak from his heart and tell me who he is . If he is unable to do this...trust will never be restored.

Acceptance - seeing and speaking the truth and dealing with reality as it is now. Acceptance that there is much work and words if you want to fix your life, your marriage and your role as a father. Acceptance of who you are and a willingness to commit to educating , seek and do whatever it takes ..to like the man you are becoming.

Apologize. My husband has apologized many many times...verbally, in writing and in many ways ( I am not minimizing actions). It took me over 2 years to "feel" his apology , to feel any emotion attached to his words . Maybe longer . But it was vital to hear ...otherwise, I cannot imagine wanting this man . I should wonder if he is sorry ? I should wonder if he has remorse ?   No.

Having said all that ..I also agree that actions are equally important . Not 1 being far more important than the other . I am NOT dismissing the absolute importance of consistent actions that back up your words. But for me , if there are no words, I will not hang around to watch your actions.

[Anjae]

Barbie, I don't need words because it has been 13 years of Mr J gone. If he come back six months after he left, they probably would had been.

I am not planning to reconnect or reconcile. It is a very different situation than yours.

And I have had words, plenty of them, but that was all I had and they meant nothing and changed nothing. So, to me, unless there are actions and those actions are consistent, words are just that, words.

The monster words of Mr J after he left include "I want you dead and I am going to rip that baby out of you no matter what", "I want you in the street, under a bridge, because I want to come back to the flat and have it for myself" and other similar things.

Those words come with physical violence and destruction of stuff in the home. Being nearly killed was far more of a problem than the words that were being said, even if the words were beyond the pale and of extreme violence.

With such words I knew he had fully lost it and was a danger.

Do you think a I'm sorry is going to mean a thing after the things Mr J did and said? The less he says, the better. I have tons, and I mean tons, of e-mails from him filled with all sorts of words. From I'm sorry to I hate you and everything in between.

Actions is all that matter to me. And by actions I mean a civil way of sorting all that needs to be sorted out plus all the money that I am legally entitled to.

[Treasur]

This topic seems to be in the HS 'zeitgeist' right now on a few threads. Not sure why, but imho when issues generate heat they can also generate light perhaps? For me, it is driven by my own perception of how you heal as an LBS and that is entirely a function of where I happen to be right now.

There is a potential confusion maybe in the temptation to see all MLCers as the same or indeed all LBS as the same. Maybe the similarities are sharper at the beginning of this experience but become more individual as it evolves...both situation and how the personalities of LBS/MLCer come into play? Acorn posted some interesting reflections on her thread about how she saw her spouse work his way towards some of this stuff at different MLC 'stages'.

I was thinking this morning that all LBS get hurt, but maybe we don't all get hurt in exactly the same way. And maybe the lasting damage is different too. If that's true, it makes sense to me that we might need different things to heal so our POV on the 4 A's here as well as words/actions would be different.

My xh essentially ended our m by ghosting me and running away. My deepest hurt was about being ignored and unseen. And powerless probably. So it makes sense to me that, even if I do not exoect it, the hurt bit of me wants Acknowledgement most of all. That I want to be heard and seen, to feel like I mattered as a human being. My hurt was probably compounded bc I lost the other folks who saw me most simultaneously. It is probably an emotional need more than a practical one. It makes sense to me too that other LBS may have hurts that are more about horrific words or financial damage so may feel a different need.

And my own experience of healing myself has led me to believe that Accountability is essential to healing, in myself and in others. I may be wrong but I honestly don't believe that anyone who causes profound damage to another human can ever heal themselves until they see the damage and take some accountability for the effects of their actions even if they were unintentional. I damaged myself by some of my reactions to events and until I could begin to Acknowledge that by looking at it in a way which was more than passive Acceptancd and take Accountability for addressing it, I was stuck. Maybe that was also about the feeling of powerlessness that came with being ghosted and gaslit. Neither have anything to do with blame though in my case and, although words (in terms of my own self-talk) matter, actions matter much more. I suppose I believe that remorse drives change more than regret, and I don't see how you can feel remorse unless you see the damage and feel accountable for your part in it.

And my xh? Well I have a vanisher so I don't know much at all. And I didn't get the 101 Reasons Why I Hate You list. I got nothing but silence really. But I loved this human for two decades, he isn't a bad person, I honestly believe he broke in some way, that he did things that were out of character and destructive, and I would like him to be healed and unbroken bc he still matters to me I suppose. I honestly expect nothing from him that will help me heal though based on what I know as it stands. Nor would I ask for it, bc that seems futile and cart before horse-ish to me. You really can't teach another human to be a decent human or to feel what a healthy human should feel...that I HAVE learned lol.

At the same time, there probably is a small bit of my healing that would be served by feeling some Acknowledgement from him that I mattered enough as a person to be seen again just a little. But the Accountability bit is less about me and more about seeing evidence of his recovery I think? And it would be nice some day to see that just a little, even if I don't expect to see it if that makes sense. Neither Acknowledgement or Accountability by him would make much practical difference to my life now....they might have done earlier, but I am too far along my own path and neither one restores anything that was lost or destroyed....but although I will live without them, I would see either as a welcome and positive gift I suppose.

[New Day Rising]

In the early days, I had many cryptic acknowledgments from my ex about his remorse, but never an official apology and I want one. I don't want him back, but he know what he did.

His remorse has been acknowledged in early conversations and his need to remain in contact which I have ended and stopped all contact with the exception of the kids.

In the early days I spoke about his job and how he should have left a lot sooner as the stress was way too much and he said 'Yes, I know. I should have left ages ago and I wouldn't be in this mess'.

Then I've had phone conversations with where he sobbed down the phone 'What did I do?'. I told him at the time I thought he needed some time on his own to figure out what he wanted.

He has called me to tell me how he is getting help now. When I have responded 'And what does that have to do with me?' He has replied 'PW, you're a difficult woman to please'. I replied with actions speak louder than words. He didn't really show me he was getting any help.

When he has been on the phone to our son, he has then sent me a message afterwards to tell me 'How happy I sound'.

Then he got engaged and told me that it was just about the kids now as he's engaged. I acknowledged it and then a few months later he asked if he could come round and see the kids maybe once or twice a week and walk the dog (The dog wasn't one we had when he left). You can't be engaged to someone else and come round to the house and play family. It doesn't work like that. He saw red when my reply was 'Our lives are completely separate now.'

I've had a messaged saying 'Can I come home now?' and then later he said it wasn't for me. I don't believe him.

So, there's been times when he's shown remorse, but it's not a heart felt apology and I really want that from him. I know SS has mentioned she is respecting her ex husband by not offering an apology and I respect that she knows her ex, but for me, a heart felt apology from my ex would be great. It would greatly improve our co-parenting relationship and I would have a lot more respect for him. In my heart of hearts, I really know deep down he regrets what he's done, but he's felt it got too far, but I just want that confirmation. Doubt I'll get it.

All I've seen is his own self pity. Urrrgghhhh.