[Nas]

It’s extremely hard for me to think that my H would just abandon me and stop communicating when I got cancer, because that requires me to believe that he not only doesn’t care about me now, but never cared, because a person wouldn’t abandon someone they once loved who now has cancer, even if they no longer love them.
So it’s easier for me to believe he must be in an emotional crisis or impaired in some way.
Bug is that just how I deal with my own cognitive dissonance?
Absolutely no way to know what’s true. The only truth I know is that my life and my health have value to me and spending time trying to figure out why he did what he did doesn’t serve me at all.

[terrified_in_TN]

Real quick I want to address the analogy the brain applied above with statutory rape.  I don't see how that was relavent since there is no "3rd party" to lay blame on...

Some of this maybe due to our age differences brian?  In the 80s when I grew up, it was WELL known that tobacco was bad.  Even at 14 years old, I knew of the health risks and how bad it was for you, etc.  So although you might say I wasn't of legal age, therefore I was unable to make life altering decisions, from a legal standpoint you would be correct.  From a practical standpoint, I would disagree.  I knew what I was getting into.  Maybe not the FULL ramifications of my actions, but I knew.

And revealing MY own foo issues, truth be told, the bully down the street that I was trying to act cool in front of had MORE to do with my decision to smoke than did the Phillip Morris Tobacco company.  Should I hold him liable should I get ill?

i just believe at SOME point you have to own up to your own choices, and stop trying to blame every body else for your issues.  (not you personally...that is meant in a generic fashion).

-T

[Thunder]

I've been reading along I just have a few things to say, and I'll shut up.

About smoking?  Unless someone has been addicting to cigarettes for 30/40 or more years you have no idea how strong the addiction is.

I know of NO ONE, not one person who smokes who wouldn't love to quit.  They know full well how bad it is for them, plus how expensive it is.  Smokers are not stupid people.

I had a SIL who when into treatment years ago for a very bad addiction to alcohol, seeing bugs on the walls, etc,.who also smoked.

She eventually quit both but when asked what was easier for her she said, she would quit drinking "5 times over" before she would quit cigarettes.

She said maybe because most alcoholics don't drink 24/7 or they would be dead, where they did smoke 24/7.  It was much more of their daily life style than drinking was.

I do agree with T though, we chose to smoke.  That is on us.  Personal responsibility means you don't put blame on anyone but yourself for your choices in life.  If you try heroin, who's fault is that?  The drug dealers or yours?

About MLCers?  I have great empathy for all of them.  I agree with Shock's Sis, who in their right mind would choose to have a midlife crisis?  No decent, normal person I know.  It's a very scary, confusing, painfully dark time for them.

I never blamed my H for his.

Bottom line is IF they really felt they were doing the right thing, then why the guilt?
My opinion is, they do know right from wrong, even in their fogged up brain.

If they feel no guilt, ok than maybe it is not a MLC, just an unhappy spouse who wanted out.

[Acorn]

Choice to have MLC.  Choices made during MLC.  Two different issues.  We might be mixing up the two?

I acknowledge that H did not choose to have MLC.  (Who does?!  )
I acknowledge that MLC explains H’s bad choices. 
I acknowledge and have deep empathy for his pain he suffered during crisis.

Extenuating circumstances, yes.
Understandable, yes.

But...

He was responsible for all his choices during his crisis.  He says so and I fully agree.  No plea of ‘diminished responsibilities’ here. 

My recognition of his full personal responsibility does not mean that I hold any animosity, bitterness or vindictiveness toward him.   Blame game is not on my mind.  Because I have forgiven him.  Because I’m out of LBS fog and can face naked truth - he did it, not the fog, not OW, not alcohol, not confusion.

I know it’s not just my MLCer who deflected his responsibility for his actions but I, the LBS, did that on his behalf as well.  And I did a really good job of it.

If one is intent on taking away personal responsibility from MLCer, which is not LBS’s prerogative in the first place, the question is not about the verdict on MLCer but the motive of the LBS who exonerates MLCer’s actions.  In my view anyway.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

You win T. I agree. It's totally your fault that you're a smoker.

Now let's return to the point of the discussion. Forget about why you started. Why do you continue?

You stated that you started when you were 14 "back in the 80s" so you've been doing it for at least 30 years. You knew all along that it's bad for you. You knew all along that it could eventually kill you. You're smart enough to realize that your second hand smoke could be harming other people, even your own children. Knowing the type of person you are, I would be surprised if you didn't feel some guilt about that. And yet, you continue to smoke and you claim that it's your choice. So what you're telling me is that you've been hurting yourself and your family by your own choice and that you plan to continue? Why would you choose to do that? Maybe you can explain it to me because I don't understand.

Is it possible for an MLCer to believe what they're doing is wrong, perhaps even feel guilty about it, yet feel powerless to stop? I believe it is because I know that T is a nice guy, that he wouldn't hurt himself or others on purpose, and yet he does just that by smoking and he has stated that he feels powerless to stop. But stopping is just a choice. For the smoker. And for the MLCer. Maybe they just need to hit rock bottom.

I'm sorry T. I think you're a great guy but smoking was your analogy. Did you quit yet? I know you can do it. I'm weak and I did it. You just have to want it badly enough.

Many LBSes have posted about the FOO issues their MLCers seem to be dealing with because of childhood neglect and abuse. They didn't choose to be neglected or abused. They were just children. Should we show them less understanding, compassion, forgiveness, than we have for cigarette smokers who made the choice to start smoking, alcoholics who made the choice to start drinking, addicts who made the choice to start taking drugs?

[Jackolar12]

Hi Marvin, it makes sense for sure, I have been trying to find the root of the problem since bomb drop to take control back and hopefully put things behind me. I blamed myself initially for everything and self medicated nightly just to get to sleep as my anxiety levels were through the roof.

I had therapy in the early years it did help a little. I went out to try to GAL for a few years but only ended up feeling our of place as a single man when I actually felt like a married man inside. I purposefully avoided parks and play areas where families we’re having fun as I couldn’t stop tears flowing from my eyes when talking to them. I took every opportunity to learn and study I could fit into my life as for hours I had to concentrate and keep the thoughts of what happened at bay.

Problem was they took me in my sleep I have had them for years and they wake me up in the early hours in a bath of sweat. I might try hypnotism i can’t tell my doctor as I deal with explosives and I think it might be PTSD related and I’d have my licences revoked.

 I think hypnotism sworth a try. I’m sorry you have had to suffer too it is not a nice place to be. When my leg heals and I can walk properly and drive again I will have another go trying to GAL but I can’t face another relationship for now and I doubt I ever will. Having your decisions made by lawyers and judges is really disabling as a man, it was awful I felt like they were a$$ ra$ing me.

I was divorced from my adulterous first wife of four years and only took 6 months to get back to myself. It was easier to heal as I told her to take a hike and although upset I was in control. My last adulterous wife lasted 25 years the attachment goes much deeper and I had absolutely no control. My dreams relate to the trauma and injustices I endured, this ones a hard one to bounce back from.

I constantly try to forget things about the bad times and I got a lot better when I was in University my course assignments kept me flat out and exhausted I grabbed what little sleep I could but the dreams kept waking me up they are always there waiting for me and probably even if I found another love and was happy they would remain etched in my soul. They are baggage I would gladly get rid of if I could.Your advice is very helpful Marvin thank you.
Kind regards
Jack

[terrified_in_TN]

Brain,

  Okay, I am really getting this thread waaaayyyy off track.  I'll just state my position one last time, hopefully in a manner better than I have done thus far, and then let it go.

The smoking thing was just an analogy.  MLC (especially the affair to the OP) has often been compared to other addictions.  That was the point I was trying to make.  Stopping smoking is EXTREMELY difficult for a lot of folks.  Just like I'm sure giving up the 'high' you get from an affair partner is probably EXTREMELY difficult to give up as well.  These are things that I dare say most people just can't find the strength to do.  So I recognize the almost addiction-like attraction running away has.  I get that.  And I agree as well.

But to say one had NO CHOICE is a lie.  If I said I CAN'T stop smoking, it would be a lie.  If I said its EXTREMELY difficult for me to stop smoking, that would be a truth.  That is the only point I was trying to make.

-T

PS  I never smoked in my house in 'my old life'.  I either smoked in the garage, or outside only.  And congrats Brain for kicking such a filthy habit.

[xyzcf]

Perhaps terrified, the "choice" that they make while they are in a crisis is not the "choice" they would make if they were not in a crisis.

They didn't do anything to send them into the crisis by choice...but they are affected never the less in ways that we don't completely understand.

I think the word "choice" has  high meaning for you. I look at it more from the actions and behaviours associated with being in a crisis are in some ways indicative of the crisis. I don't use the word choice so much as they may not be totally in control of what they are doing as they try and resolve something inside of them that has been tearing them apart for years.

Jackolar,

After many years, I was still feeling deep depression and sadness. I had therapy after BD but several years later, I realized I was stuck. It was determined that I was experiencing PTSD as many LBSers do and I found a therapist who deals with mind body work. I saw her for 2 years and recently went by for a "tune up". It has helped me very much.

Others have used EMDR quite successfully.

I also accept now, that the end of my marriage, my family, the life I adored is over. I didn't cause it to be and I cannot do anything to bring him home...that acceptance helps me a great deal also.

[terrified_in_TN]

...

I think the word "choice" has  high meaning for you....

Perhaps you are right.  Again this is such a hard topic to discuss because we all have our own opinions, beliefs, experiences, and even thoughts on 'why' this happened in the first place.

Now we haven't experienced it here on HS that I know of, but most of us have seen middle-age love triangles that ended up in murder.  I'm sure at least a few of those folks were not career criminals or psychopaths, but did just end up going completely off the rails.  Again thank God we haven't had anything like that happen here that I am aware of.  In quite a few of these cases, the stories reeked of MLC.  In cases such as these, do you think the conspirator didn't have a choice?  Should their responsibility be lessened due to diminished capacity?  That's a rhetorical question by the way-each person will feel differently based on their values, beliefs, and so on.

-T

[Not Applicable]

Acorn even if they had no control over their choices, their choices hurt us. In the end this is what they should be accounting for. If after all this my husband told me he was sorry that his fog made him do it, that would show he had little awareness of the effects
of his actions and was still focused on himself