[Songanddance]

Undoubtedly they all gaslight - some are more extreme than others.

How though if you are a newbie do you recognise it and separate it from comments that made me based in truth.

For example - H accused me of being controlling and having to control everything.

Partially correct and partially gaslighting. I was much more of a control freak than I am now (mirror work) but the everything bit is the gaslighting.

As a newbie the reaction to such a comment would be defensive " No I don't have to control everything"  which leads to the MLCer justifying further their comments and increasing the gaslighting. 
A detached comment recognising the gaslighting would be " Everything H? - hmm interesting"

This is what I where I would like this thread to go - examples as Whyus and others have given and possible alternative solutions not to react and perpetuate it.  Instead of discussing why MLCers gaslight - let's make this thread a share of the kinds of things they say and how to deflect/detach/defeat it.

Your turn!!

[Shockandawe]

Haha Whyus

It’s when I look back I think to myself WTF! He really convinced me that this was my fault entirely. That it was all my fault that he was unhappy and if I had have been a strong person who didn’t stop him from riding his bike when it was raining (I’m not kidding but I never stopped him doing anything he wanted btw). It was my fault that he took a job he had never wanted ( he actively wanted the job and loved it, he now hates it). Plus many other things I supposedly did wrong.

These MLCers are all in Lala Land and they are all desperately trying to avoid what they did and what they need to face. Let them get on with it and leave them alone to do it. It’s only giving them what they want after all isn’t it?

God bless you all

[Helpingme!]

Whyus
My W started with skimpy workout outfits at gym. Yes, told me I didn't trust her. Told me that's why she never wore revealing stuff. Because I was jealous. Total BS. Hell I was so dumb I encouraged her in her changing of wardrobes. As a husband I actually did like it.
Then she changed all her wardrobes underneath the clothes, I was still clueless. I never seen her wear them, but somebody was.

[Treasur]

I read somewhere (assuming you want to engage at all) that you can do a 'normal people with good intent test'.

Spew, blah, blah...
Gosh, I never knew you felt that way...I'm so sorry bc that really wasn't my intention. Can you give me an example so I can be sure I am understanding you now?
Normal people will usually a) become less angry bc they feel acknowledged and b) be able to give you a specific factual example which c) makes sense even if you don't agree with it.
Not normal people who are gaslighting? Won't do that and will usually double down and spew more.

The other trst I think is to use the rule of 3 to consider a)the facts you know and b) what they have to gain from persuading you the facts are not true. So, for instance, my xh got on a gaslighting roll towards the end of his divorce when he would complain that I was dragging the process out. I knew that a) that was not factually true but the opposite was actually and b) I could have emailed him the 'evidence' and it would not have changed his POV, waste of time.  The other bit of gaslighting was that he was like a dog with a bone that he wanted my written permission to say I was ok if he broke his agreement, that I was happy for our m to end and if he applied for the absolute before the financials were done. No idea why he felt that way but it was a nonsense...he didn't need it legally, I couldn't stop him nor did he need my approval or permission...and it wasn't ok with me and I was entitled to feel that way..repeated words from his L and mine made no difference. So I just stopped engaging with him about it.

The other gaslighting clue I think is when people use words like Always and Never and Everything...particularly about a long time period. Rationally, this is unlikely to be the whole truth even if it is their perception.

I honestly think though the biggest warning sign of gaslighting is that it makes you feel off balance, unsure, as if you are being unreasonable when you know really you're not.

[Not Applicable]

What is curious here is why has a thread on how to deal with gaslighting been classified as a mirror work thread and not as an mlc strategy thread?

[Seahorse]

I think I recognized gaslighting after I was told that I was a victim of it by my therapist.
You will feel uncomfortable, as if you're to blame, when in your heart you don't think you've done anything wrong. 
Basically - you'll feel like you've done something wrong, when you haven't and it's the MLCers way of negating the responsibility or putting their blame on you and making it your fault.

Maybe that will help any newbies who don't realize, as I didn't...

Sea

[3Boys4Me]

What a great idea to help people ide tidy gaslighting, when it started happening to me I felt like I was going crazy.  It took me a long time to figure out what it was, and now the kids and I are better skilled at handling it, can still be hard, but, we’re progressing.

First time - end of April 2017 we arrive in FL for a family vacation, I made all arrangements, about a week before our flight he asked me if I had reserved a car, I said no, thanks for the reminder, he said “I’ll do it right now” - I said I always reserve through (our frequent flier airline) and we automatically get the points, discount etc on our mileage credit card. He said, great! A couple minutes later he says, I found a car for $xxx, I said great, that’s a good deal. It was an off brand place.  Fast forward a week, we arrive at the airport, head downstairs to the rental areas and nowhere - nowhere can we find the change of the rental car company - it strikes me, I said, can I look at the reservation? He hands me his phone and the rental place is a few miles away from the airport - I said ok, this place is miles away, let’s see what we could do - he was way stressed, unreasonably so, I said it’s ok, I’m online now I may be able to find something at the airport right now - we got in one of the long lines and I had made a new reservation before we got to the counter - wasn’t too much more $$$... the reservation my H made was cancelable, so he just cancelled and it cost us nothing.  All good right? As we were leaving he said, well it’s your fault, you made me reserve through xxx. It was totally out of character and completely false - the airline has all the big names at the airport, he just picked the best price. I also immediately knew it was something his mother would have said - we used to look at each other and take deep breaths when she did so. It that moment I literally said to myself, uh oh, I’m in trouble - it was the moment I knew my marriage was in trouble.

The other day in an argument on phone with sporty Son - he said, dad everything I just told you is true - it’s a fact, H said, just because it’s a fact, doesn’t make it true”

One day when working outside, H can I help you? H, no.  I go upstairs and help kids with homework. Come back down less than an hour later, H, can I help you? No... I do it a third time about 15 minutes later...still no. Within an hour we drive sporty Son to practice, as we exit the car, he says I can’t believe you didn’t help me outside with the project.

More recently, we absolutely need to work together and not spend any more money on lawyers - he’s hired two more lawyers I. The last two months and started more legal proceedings

I could go on for days

[Father5]

I spent atleast a year being gaslight before I figured out what it was. I thought I was going crazy. I literally called my mom crying on my way to work telling her something was wrong with my wife. She said you two are made for each other. Dad and I were just saying how good you guys are together.

 I couldn't figure it out. I would ask my wife what was going on. She said she was in single mom mode and couldn't get out of it. Then we were looking at new houses and got a new car. I thought it was in my head that I was bipolar like my sister. It was the worst part of my entire life. I am still trying to recover from it. It seems like a bad dream.

[OffRoad]

If I feel slimed, I've been slimed. My suggestion to people is if you feel like your concerns have been dismissed or poo-pooed as if your feelings don't matter, you are likely being gaslighted, and that applies to everyone you deal with.

My favorite gas lighting story was when I told xh that I felt like I was in this marriage alone. Xh declared, "I'm completely engaged in this marriage" yet was never there to help with anything. When BD came, xh declared," You were right. I had checked out way back then"

So he checked out, insisted he hadn't when I called him on his behavior,  then said that he had.

For me, I didn't think it was my problem, I knew something was wrong, but assumed it was stress he was under.

Xh also used to "borrow" my tools and insist he put them back. I would have thought it was just forgetfulness until I found my tools hidden in his nightstand drawer,  and then they would magically appear in my tool box two days later.  When I asked if he had found them or put them there, he'd say I must have forgotten I'd put them back. I knew better.

Trust your instincts,  if it feels off, it's probably off.

[barbiedoll]

Of course everyone of us has had some experience with gaslighting. You know that feeling when you just "know" something is going on ( like knowing there is an OW) and you are told in an extremely convincing way that you are "nuts?".  That internal battle with simply knowing something and another person is an expert at denying and convincing you that you are in fact crazy and something is wrong with you . Neither voice gives up ...so you do feel like you are cracking up.

I believed my husband was the king of gaslighters and that caused repairing any marriage to come to a dead stop...many many times. One of the most troubling issues that still rears its head is him continual saying " I never said that ". So an example would be having a rather deep conversation and he asks me something and I answer ...sometimes at great length. He is then silent . When I ask for a response he says " I never said that". Like I am hearing things . Endless debates on what he said and what I heard . Yes, I started to doubt myself, thought I was nuts and talking to him was endless anxiety. The king of denial. I started to refuse to have conversations with him as it was extremely upsetting. Then I overheard him on the phone talking to one of his employees and low and behold he said " I never said that ". Interestingly , he also has said that to the counsellor . He responded to her, she replied and he said " I never said that". She ( because she is patient and loevely and gets paid to listen to his crazeee ) asks him to explain exactly what he means. The bottom line is he is a very poor communicator in terms of his thoughts, perceptions and emotional language. I knew that in the past when he helped with homework and the girls also said " I don't know what you mean" until someone was crying. We discussed this at length in therapy. So is his "gaslighting" intentional ? Or is he just a very ineffective communicator?

He had no idea what gaslighting meant or that there was such a term. We have watched videos , done some work with this and he sees what damage it creates . So it is now his responsibility to change that , not mine. T stay away from the damage of feeling gas-lit , I now ask for clarification of what he means ( before I answer) , repeat his question or call him on it . You are gaslighting...or it certainly feels the same. It still is a struggle. So is he an evil manipulative gaslighter or just a really shi##y communicator?

Another issue that has created endless misery is silence. There is much control and manipulation in silence. I have felt "punished" by his refusal to answer, react, ask questions, maintain the conversation etc. It is crazy-in-the-head making to deal with someone who simply quits the conversation. It enrages /triggers me to an absolute screaming maniac. It attaches to the childhood wound from my mother of refusing to answer me all of my childhood. And boy or boy, that makes me so reactive and angry. There was some understanding when I finally saw that connection. My mother "punished" with silence and is a gaping wound from my childhood still alive in my marriage.
I interpreted his "refusal" to respond as utter control, manipulation and a form of gaslighting and it endlessly triggered me to my 5 year old self with loud nasty protest behaviour. And then came a day in counselling when the therapist asked him some hard questions. He refused to answer her . She waited . Three , four, five minutes ...and she asked again. I am reacting to his refusal to answer and actually happy someone besides me will see what I put up with. Again she asks him ...and we wait . He is silent, he is bright red and sweaty looking , his eyes are like slits and he is frozen. I can see his chest moving to breathe...no other movement . He refuses. She asks him "what is happening to you right now? ". He says nothing. I FEEL FURY ...HOW DARE YOU TREAT SOMEONE LIKE THAT? . It feels like that person is made invisible, like you have "voided" thier presence and they do not matter one bit. She gives me the "be quiet look". She works away with silent him ..He "cannot think". He cannot find the right words to describe the emotion ( and it is a HUGE risk for him to "not get it right again), he is "emotionally flooded to his "freeze" reaction from his childhood. He was conditioned to "freeze" ...otherwise he would / believed he would be killed by his father. The fear is that paralyzing . She explained his reaction to me ( to us) in great detail , and for the 1st time I saw it in a different way and could react in a different way. It was a changing moment in my life. It was NOT gaslighting ...but it sure felt like it was. He works on this "freeze" response endlessly because he does see how it feels to me . He has not always been successful. Neither have I. But we now understand what is truly happening inside our little wounded selves. It is NOT always gaslighting but rather our responses to certain behaviours programmed inside of us. I hope this makes some amount of sense. I guess we have to look deeper sometimes and examine our reactions ...not just their behaviour. Hard lessons to learn . If I see or feel like I am being "gaslit" , I point it out and it gets talked about and stopped.