[nah]

I hope so too.

[Slow Fade]

I don’t think it is either. It’s solid advice. Many newbies don’t want to listen to it - I certainly didn’t, because the need for it was happening when I was still quite literally shell shocked from BD and truly not understanding the magnitude of what was happening to me and around me.

This was true for me as well. The mentors brought these ideas in gently but didn't take away hope. That is what worked. I "heard" the advice when I was ready. The seeds were planted and eventually took root and came to the surface.

In the beginning you aren't ready to hear the practicalities.......you just want comfort and a community who understands what you are going through. Support. Hugs. Caring words sprinkled with the advice that is needed; Detach, protect finances, get up and find yourself........you just can't start there right at BD.........

[Treasur]

I think most of us know we had a time, sometimes a long time, when we were too broken and confused to hear some of the advice we were given. I know I was. A couple of vets invested a lot of effort and good intent trying to prod me up off my knees with patchy results tbh. Not their responsibility but mine. And it is natural to want to save others heading towards a cliff we think we fell over looking back, but a kind respectful gentle touch is terribly important in the first year or so isn't it? I try to do that but I am sure I often fail. And I am no great success story so tbh I have no magic words of wisdom worth hanging your hat on lol.

But part of the joy of HS is the legacy of diverse voices. The good advice and the encouraging suggestions of what worked for others, or not, stays here and keeps popping up for when people need it and are ready. I have never entirely lost compassion for my xh bc my h was a good human being and I saw that he broke. But I can't do anything to support him or practice that compassion towards him, so I try to use it the best I can for other LBS who might find a few words helpful.

Perhaps the MLC lens is more useful for looking at an MLCer but becomes less so for looking at our own lives after a little while as the mad dust settles?

[Airmid]

And it is natural to want to save others heading towards a cliff we think we fell over looking back, but a kind respectful gentle touch is terribly important in the first year or so isn't it?

Yes, natural - and I think some vets, including myself want to "pay it forward".
Stayed and LP saved me when I didn't want to save myself.

But I think being a vet has its own "issues".
Vets have seen the same play over and over again.
Vets know the likely trajectories.
Vets can see the big picture more easily.

LP often said she really could not work with newbies because she didn't have the capacity to powder behinds and wipe away tears.
I picked LP as my mentor when I was at a point I could take being kicked down the path.
I explicitly gave her free rein to kick me (metaphorically).
And knowing that I gave her that option - I ran like he!! to stay way out in front of her -
chugging through LBSer task after task as fast as I could because I didn't want to feel her boot.
Knowing that if I didn't pull my own weight she would catch up to me and kick me - it was my motivational factor to staying on track for self care.
I used my fear of LP's 2x4s to my own advantage.

My approach to my own healing is not for everybody.
Certainly not for the delicate faint of heart.

LP and I are both known for the tough love approach.
Neither of us seek out newbies, or people to mentor.
Usually LBSers seek us out.

In your case Treasur - you sought out tough love mentors - only to realize that approach didn't work for you.
That realization is vital to understanding what works best for you.
But for many others - like myself - we need 2x4s because we are so stubborn.

[Thunder]

I agree SF, I had Xyzcf and her gentle manner jelled with mine.
She was patient and so good at getting her point across without a 2x4.

We all need something different to get us on track, because we are all different people.

Mind you, I'm not exactly against 2x4's when needed.  It's just not my style I guess.

[lawprofessor]

Early on we certainly look through one lens predominately.  And are treated as newbies, with others well aware we are a more fragile, more delicate soul. One at this point has certain needs and this forum has a continual and high focus on helping newbies.  As it should be.  I mean, Is there a better ambassadour to newbies than Thunder for example?  But I don't know maybe she feels less comfortable when a few middle or old timers are debating.  (I don't that, as she's never said.  It's just a relatable example for cement example.)

But then there comes a time when we are on our feet more, when maybe the lens is slipping, maybe another lens is necessary due to circumstances. And you have some experience and some skills and some knowledge.   And you're making decisions all over again and evaluating where you are.  It's likely and even natural that your needs have changed in how/what you want from the forum.  Some find they have a need to be heard, some practice that skill by writing and mentoring for example.  Some find a need to release a bit of anger.  Some find a need to dust off critical thinking.  Some just appreciate knowing they can come back and share.  Some find they have other needs.  But many want to exercise those needs in an atmosphere of almost family/friends.

Do those in the second group have less of a right to be here?  Less of a hope for support no matter that they aren't a pile of tears?  Less of the old support of hand holding and a shift to encouraging their growth into a new phase of life as they become middle or even old timers?  Applauding successes and growth? 

Each of these phases comes with figurative growing pains as I see it.  A long time ago there was discussion about whether hs need/should have a separate forum for older timers.  It was decided no.  I thought it would have been a good idea though.

It had nothing to do with standing or not, believing in mlc or not.  It had a ton to do with realizing different people have different needs especially when looking through different lens.  They are dealing with different emotions, different circumstances, different thoughts, different needs perhaps.  And that could perhaps be easier to manage without hurting others if the two were separate because after all we've noted there are different lens. 

Where one interprets a poster as saying quit standing right now, the poster thinks he said there is life after mlc.  One says I've looked at my part in the marriage and during crisis and I'm happy now, another interprets that as it's not my fault so why are you saying it is?  Maybe you didn't have a happy marriage but mine was before bd.  Different lens.  Different needs.  But that doesn't give one the right to demand silence from the other.  Because someday a newbie may become a middle timer and find their lens has shifted, stander or not, mlc believer or not.

I'm personal friends with many of those I mentored.  If I had continued to treat them as mentees I doubt this would be so.  Because people grow and relationship mature, and needs change as they should.

Lp

[Acorn]

I am more aware of the MLC lens and its possible ill effects on LBS than ever. I do not mean using it to understand our MLCer’s totally-out-there behaviours which came about almost overnight, and then leaving them alone to their business of figuring themselves out and LBS moving forward and living her life as best as she can. 

Here is my latest thought:

I am musing if it is possible that the excessive use of the MLC lens for a prolonged period eventually fuses it to LBS’s eye.  That is a scary thought, because, then, your life = MLC. 

Do you think your MLC lens is temporary? 

[Treasur]

I think so. And limited in application.
So, I might decide the MLC lens is useful for looking at the WTF stuff of BD or my xh's behaviour. But I think there is a natural time limit to that perhaps. When you have looked enough and are not getting any new info. When you have NC with your ex at all even indirectly so you only need it historically as in my case. I guess if something changes you might need to pick it up again, but yes I think it has a shelf life.

And I think for a while we overuse the MLC lens bc the impact of MLC is so huge. But perhaps that means we use it for nonMLC things for a while? Ourselves, our marriages, our lives, other people....

Maybe recovery is that with time we use the MLC lens less often and with a more precise focus if we do?

I remember my h saying once that if you go to an optician and after doing the normal checks, they open a small dusty drawer that squeaks bc it is rarely used, you know you have a problem. ( this was when my h had a soh and talked to me of course lol...he also had a detached retina at the time). Maybe the goal is that the MLC lens eventually migrates to that small dusty drawer 

[3Boys4Me]

Acorn,

For me, the lens is becoming more like reading glasses. I use them occasionally to read the fine print. In the beginning, when Dr Jekyl morphed into Mr Hyde, I relied on the lens nearly full time. As I have gained strength, it has become less necessary. I feel more confident. I don’t refer back to the articles daily, weekly, or even monthly - if something comes up and I have a question, or if I am feeling weak, I may go back to RCR and HB’s web sites to re-read. If I am blue and faltering, I will read something spiritually uplifting.

I think I may be entering a new LBS stage where I really have finally dropped the rope and surrendered it all. I’m not focusing on H, I have so much healing to do for me, and I have my kids I need to care for.  Now that I have really released my H to himself, the MLC lens is getting far less use. 

[Treasur]

Occurs to me belatedly that before the MLC lens, the one I used which was much more damaging was the 'my h' lens.....