[Not Applicable]

The old timers repeated again and again, “stop monkey-braining, take your focus off of him and onto yourself, GAL, He’s in la-la land, practice self-care, etc., etc.,...

But it's like telling someone not to think of a pink elephant. The only way I think to truly do all those things is to get away from people telling you to do them and just living your life.

How many times do these old timers need to repeat the same stuff over and over without thinking? UM described a comment from Acorn on her thread as being like "Live like they aren't coming back" but Acorn's H never left! So it makes zero sense to describe it that way.

I think a lot of the advice is being doled out without any critical thinking whatsover. It's become robotic. It's become one size fits all and ignores people's individual situations.

But then there are those who are totally offended when you point out your situation isn't like theirs (e.g. vanisher vs. non-vanisher), yet I think these differences do matter when it comes to deciding how to handle the situation.

[nah]

True, NYM, often there is standard advise that doesn’t work for everyone. Like LP wrote, having the MLCer “own the divorce” often led to financial devastation.

Your example of “live like they’re not coming back” doesn’t work for live-ins. Is there a discussion thread for live-ins like there is for vanishers?  If there isn’t, there should be.

Anyways, your pink elephant example. I agree, 100%, we are going to think about the pink elephant, it’s impossible not to think of them, especially if they’re standing in front of you, or even if they instantly became a ghost.

I still think “focus on you” applies. How is it healthy to come to a support forum after monkey braining all day about your own pink elephant and start asking a self-proclaimed former pink elephant what they were thinking? “Hey, Ex-PE, did you like your tail rubbed?, how about your trunk? If your caretaker talked to other PE’s did you get mad or would you then decide to stop being a PE?

If the PE wants to be a PE, that’s their issue. I can spend the rest of my life being a PE caretaker or shift to being something that is healthy for me. Yes, I’m going to peek at the PE, I can smile and wave when I walk by him but let someone else shovel his huge pile of sh!t while I grab my baton to twirl in my own parade.

The point is, we are naturally going to talk about them, look their way, and wallow in the “what if’s” but IMO, it’s not healthy.

When I first met my current husband, part of my attraction to him was the GALing.  I was obsessed with traveling, and he liked to travel too, so it worked (it was just about having fun). Anyways, I was only about 3 years post BD, so I would often have triggers. A place, a song, a memory, you know the drill, and I would fall into a dark place in my mind and would go over what happened again and again and again, repeating the bad memories like a broken record. “E” would listen, then hold my hand and whisper, “come back to me”, and I would. I wallowed for a few minutes and he literally reached out his hand and helped me back into reality or what he used to say, “be where your feet are placed, not in the past, not in the future but in the now.” 

IMO, we need to travel through the necessary stages but sometimes we need a gentle reminder to stop the constant wallowing about the pink elephant.

[lawprofessor]

Good morning,

"I agree with Whyus, that focusing on any MLCer, currently or a self-proclaimed ex-MLCer is “dangerous”, maybe not bc their advice is necessarily dangerous but bc it keeps the LBS wallowing in the bargaining stage."

Well I'd have to say I agree with Nah, Whyus, and In it.  I believe I see a shift as well.  Instead of being willing to think about what's said and written, (applying critical thinking skills?) some of the newer generations and a vocal group of older timers seem to want to believe they know, that there's a short cut to this, that anyone suggesting anything else is wrong, and that differences are insulting attacks so they can just run around sticking their fingers in their ears shouting I don't have to listen to you. Some due to being young in this, some due to being unable to yet face/grasp all and apply critical thinking skills, some because their ego overrides all else, some because they are wallower lbs, some because it's easier to get answers they want, and a variety of other reasons.

If these people want to stare at the pink elephant, my attitude is go, stare until you get your answers for the most part.  If they want to believe one MLCer journey is applicable to all others, and use a former MLCer as a soothsayer, good luck with that.  Obviously RCR has allowed it to date but may be questioning that most recently.

My personal opinion:

Really, using critical thinking skills, who seriously believes with any long term experience of MLC, one MLC'ers experience has any bearing or explanatory value on that of another except in the most generalized sense?  So what if they use a few common terms/script occasionally?  Those commonalities are so general as to be nothing more than of passing interest holding no explanatory value in the long term other than to reassure the lbs that what they are seeing is most likely a MLC.  When we look for commonalities we find them.  Human nature.  When we seek differences, the same.  Focusing on one to the exclusion of another?  Is that applying critical thinking?

All have different sorts of foo issues where details matter.
All have different life experiences
All have different personalities
Differences in mlc type high energy to wallower
Different opportunities, assets available to play with
Children, no children
Different physical health and mental health histories
Different levels of family support

And most importantly we are all different and had different responses and relationship styles while together.

Thats why it's amusing watching some of these same people argue statistics aren't applicable as to returns but then turn around and argue that watching the pink elephant and seeking answers from a former MLCer is important and or holds some validity or importance, a window in.  If these people were all the same then there would/could be predictive value, wouldn't there?  Selection bias.

I see over and over the quotes about it being like a movie, but my J thinks that's absolutely ridiculous and just another romanticized excuse rather than the MLCer being honest and 100% owning their behaviour.  He thinks it's just a typical pattern of rewriting history and romanticizing the process while also filling the lbs with what they want to hear and increasing the chance perhaps that they have a soft place to return to. Does that mean one is wrong?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Maybe it's a difference between where people are in healing. Mlc made J brutally honest believing that to tell a truth to someone even if it hurts is better than trying to couch things in a way that won't hurt as much but leaves the message open to interpretation.  He's given up wanting to protect or fix another and he's dealt with the guilt he had for what he did.

J thinks its a big pile of bull cookies to tell an lbs that their MLCER thinks of them, let alone thinks often of them.  Or that some MLCers aren't having fun.  He frankly states he was having a great time in the beginning running free with no responsibilities knowing he could return home at any time.  It wasn't until the end of the journey that he had anymore than fleeting thoughts about home other than how things impacted him.  Was this due to him being high energy?  His personality?  His FOO issues?  Something else?  How does it apply to others?  It doesn't.  He's one person. 

That's what I mean.  We used to understand that these people are different.  They have different personalities, different life experiences, different foo issues, different mlc types. 

And that realization was because there was a balance on the forum.  We were encourage to read others stories even if those stories caused us to examine uncomfortable issues.  We weren't applauded for having tantrums or encouraged to just block someone if we disagreed with her.  We didnt expect everyone to agree.  And we debated topics. 

Another thought, what good does it do to think you are gaining insight hanging on the words of a reformed MLCer?  Does that help move your life forward?  Pay your bills?  Ensure to any degree yours will come home?  Heal your wounds?  Make the lbs a more attractive option?  A healthier balanced person?    I doubt that.  There are dozens of people over the years around here that really invested time and energy immersing themselves in views into the MLC world.  Exactly 0 of them that I can think of off the top of my head are back with their MLCer unless you count rcr and she didn't learn by using some MLCer as a fortune teller but by doing.  But that's just my opinion not a statistical analysis.

Does it help the MLCer if you know a ton about MLC?  Not really because that is still the controlling fixer attitude these people disliked, even rebelled against So they had the space to grow.   So how would that draw them back?  These people managed to have a crisis without our directing it.  They can manage to come out without us controlling or having input as well. 

Learn enough to get your feet under you, and physician heal yourself.  That's where the real returns are.  And if the spouse does the work as well, then there is a chance. But you can't do the work for them and expect them to be grateful and have the lesson sink in.  That's not healthy human nature.

These pink elephant watchers will be surprised in the end, if their MLCER ever comes out and opens up, how much it enables the MLCER to take another trip around the moon when the lbs is staring at the pink elephant waiting for it to move rather than moving forward focusing on herself.  They will be surprised how much their assumptions that begin with "He must..." are just dead wrong.  And with the passage of time in hindsight appear juvenile and unhealthy to them.  That's my experience.  Maybe yours will be different?  Go ahead stare at the pink elephant if you choose, and see a fortune teller if it helps.

J didn't get through his crisis because I knew a ton about mlc.  He got through his crisis because it was time and he chose to. 

But, if you want to stare at the pink elephant, stare away.  Be sure to come back in 5 years and let us know where you are and the updates on the progress of your pink elephant. 

A last thought, we all stare at the pink elephant in the beginning.  Some longer than others.  Who wouldn't stare at him?  Theres an alien with big antennas in our spouses body in the front room.  We old timers haven't forgotten the pain. We have, however, for the most part gotten past the pain and learned there is no joy or reward for staring at the pink elephant the longest, or being the quickest to achieve the mythical grail of most forgiving or understanding.  That no PhD in MLC studies is awarded.  That agape love is an ideal not a summit to be achieved as none are perfect, that it's natural and OK even necessary to be angry at some points, that there is life outside MLC, that sitting down in hell doesn't have to be a life habit, no matter our level of knowledge or intellect, we can't control or fix another, that we shouldn't want to invest a lifetime in fixing another, that our identity is not defined by MLC or what happens on this forum, that uncomfortable spots are where growing often occurs if we are mature enough and ready to deal with it.  That our ego is one of the first things that must get tossed in the disposal before progress is made.  We know these things because we've been there. 

But we must also remember to allow space for others to grow into realizations that seem obvious to us.  To form their own opinions and come to their own conclusions.  Yes we can share our thoughts and experiences, warning of pitfalls.  We can dislike the focus of the forum as is with the collection of pink elephants and answer people.  We can fear the forum  has taken a dangerous direction.  And we can voice our concerns.  Some will hear and others will defend, feel insulted, or complain amongst themselves or to RCR. Some here would be surprised just how many old timers, former mods, Stander's and those long recon believe the direction of the forum is wrong. 

Yet none of that matters if they are silent or if decision-makers don't hear. 

Which brings to mind the line,
There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know.

Now just who am I suggesting by this?  I'll leave that to those who wish to react rather than respond, assume rather than apply, who personalize rather than see the big picture. 

Now it's back to my life outside MLC for me as the holiday weekend is over and I've shared my thoughts for what they are worth.  And I'm tired of fighting with this site to work correctly. 

Lp

[Acorn]

Well, LP, you beat me to it on one point.  Only because I’m having endless trouble posting. 

I might as well post it, though you said it already.

The (ex)MLCer you read about is not your MLCer.  You cannot possibly guess what’s going on in anyone’s head by extrapolating one/two/three persons’ descriptions of their mental state to your MLCer.   There are sure to be some similarities and even those might be because one forces them to fit.  Whatever ex/self proclaimed MLCer says is a sample of one. 

Heck, I could quote my H to present the exact opposite views an MLCer.  For example, it was my ‘strength and resilience,’ as he put it, that annoyed him to no end.  But then, it’s just a sample of one, right? 

[nah]

Funny how this thread with so many thought provoking posts was forgotten when many of us were distracted with a letter from a self-proclaimed MLCer from another site.

Seems to me the activities of MLCers have a way of stirring up emotions.

I had fly to another state for work yesterday. The safety instructions were pretty clear...
In case of emergency, put on your own oxygen mask first.

[Nas]

I had fly to another state for work yesterday. The safety instructions were pretty clear...
In case of emergency, put on your own oxygen mask first.

Exactly.  Whatever it is that's happened to the person I/you was/were married to, we still have lives to live and need to take care of ourselves.

[KeepItTogether]

I had fly to another state for work yesterday. The safety instructions were pretty clear...
In case of emergency, put on your own oxygen mask first.

Exactly.  Whatever it is that's happened to the person I/you was/were married to, we still have lives to live and need to take care of ourselves.

Yes, and our kids too,  b/c the vast majority of them abandon their children too.

I think I was a slow learner too though in terms of MLC. Then again, maybe that was the time I needed to fall out of love with a presently unlovable person. Have to say, I have really enjoyed hearing all of the advice of some of the "old-timers" b/c I am exactly in the place where I can actually hear what they are saying now and put it into practice. I truly hope you all continue to post.   

[nah]

I feel like we can disagree on many issues, such as statistics, what causes MLC, what is MLC, etc

I just don’t understand how anybody can skirt around the fact that focusing on ourselves is the healthier option to healing.

I don’t understand how anybody can suggest that we shouldn’t reiterate that protecting our finances is essential. I was “lucky” that I secured my finances early, so should I ignore the fact that many, many others often lose their life savings?

Why is this advice, the same advice that was given to me when I landed here battered and bruised in 2013, now considered negative?

[KeepItTogether]

Why is this advice, the same advice that was given to me when I landed here battered and bruised in 2013, now considered negative?

I don't think it is Nah. Maybe for some who prefer to wear blinders. But not for the majority, I think. I hope.

[3Boys4Me]

Why is this advice, the same advice that was given to me when I landed here battered and bruised in 2013, now considered negative?

I don't think it is Nah. Maybe for some who prefer to wear blinders. But not for the majority, I think. I hope.

I don’t think it is either. It’s solid advice. Many newbies don’t want to listen to it - I certainly didn’t, because the need for it was happening when I was still quite literally shell shocked from BD and truly not understanding the magnitude of what was happening to me and around me.