[OffRoad]

.
People come to HS wanting reassurance ...especially they often want a rule book that will somehow influence the outcome.

I'm a people. I did not come seeking reassurance or a rule book. I came trying to figure out what happened, and how to survive having a live in MLCer, without destroying any possibility of reconciliation.

IMO, I had all the information I needed here. Some people reconciled under X situation. That might happen for me, it might not, and I got to choose if I wanted to wait for a person who would do what XH did to me. I made my choice.

I'm almost hearing that some posters don't believe other posters are capable of making their own decisions based on everything that is here. Because it's not in big red letters as factual numbers? Because an LBS cannot get back their critical thinking skills once they have gotten on an even keel? Or do people think that if someone is stuck, they have lost their critical thinking skills until they are unstuck? Or can't people just be stuck for a while and figure things out at their own pace?

[MyBrainIsBroken]

OR, I completely agree with you but I think xyzcf may be right and you and I may not be normal.

[lawprofessor]

In response, I'd say that I came here looking for answers as well to what in the world happened to my spouse and how to glue myself back together so I wasn't looking for reassurances that my spouse would return. 

In that perhaps we are in the minority although I don't know that with any degree of statistical certainty.

However, as to critical thinking skills, several thoughts to toss out there for consideration:
1.  Critical thinking skills are best utilized when as much information as possible is clearly presented.
2.  Critical thinking skills do not seem to be at the optimum level when one has just been traumatized.
3.  Critical thinking skills do not seem to be normally and or optimally accessible for many if not most who are suffering with things such as PTSD and like diagnosis as well as depression and anxiety.
4.  Some circumstances do not allow for time so that the poster regains the ability to make fully and solidly rational decisions to the best of their ability because the poster has a high energy MLCer, is a violent MLCer, is spending through all financial resources, is accumulating joint debt, is involved in risky activities, is attacking ones career and or reputation, is involved in drug use and or sales, is risking drinking and driving, etc.
5.  Many of those who post have gone through or are going through a time of their spouse gas lighting them.  In gas lighting a part that is directly attacked is ones ability to use critical thinking skills and have confidence in those decisions. 
6.  People come here for different reasons. Some for information.  Others want the secret key to getting their spouse back.  Others want commisseration.  Some don't want to feel alone.  Others have a variety of other personal reasons. 

The reasons and the varying levels of trauma, PTSD, depression, anxiety, previous physical and mental health, the type of MLCer, financial situation, age, age of children, etc seem to have an impact on how a person views whether or not they found the information they wanted/needed.

7.  Sometimes decisions made early in the process have long lasting repercussions.

Is anyone saying posters are not capable of making their own decisions?  I don't think that is what is being said. 

I think what's being said is there is no reason not to present all information.  No reason to hide or even to gloss over information.  No need to enable the poster in clinging to a belief such as all MLC'ers return when even RCR stated on the forum that she doesn't believe that.  No reason to shift the blame to a poster when they miss a few lines in a random thread such as the response of RCR where she said she doesn't believe all MLC'ers will return.  How many of the posters could find that without the link posted by Airmid?  How many would even know to search for that?  No reason to then state, well they will get it if they just x, or worse to state well we all know that and in time they will realize it.  No reason to duck responsibility to communicate when selling a product. 

An lbs can't get back their critical thinking skills when they get on an even keel?

Nope I don't think anyone is say that either.  That's just what happens when some LBS's come back and say they feel duped or deceived by the information and reassurances they were given when they arrived here.

The question is really how long does it take for them to get back on an even keel?  In that time what decisions are they making based on incomplete information?  As an example, Years ago when I began posting here, a common piece of advice was to let the MLCer own the divorce.  In time we saw the number of posters that were devastated financially by this advice grow.  Many of the people that followed this advice, trusted this advice, were financially devastated by it and still have not recovered all these years later. 

Is that a case in which those people were unable to use their critical thinking skills?  Or unable permanently to access their critical thinking skills?  I don't think so.  I think they trusted the advice they received on the forum.

If someone is stuck, have they lost their critical thinking skills until they are unstuck?  I don't think anyone suggests quite that.  Being stuck doesn't make a person incapable.  It makes them unwilling perhaps to apply critical thinking skills to maximum levels perhaps.  But that is a poster's responsibility.  Not a question of ability or glossing over or stifling information or something else.

Can people be stuck for a while and just figure things out in their own time?

Absolutely.  That's a personal choice that all are free to elect to follow. 

However, the site doesn't have to encourage that or enable that as it's not in line with the goals of the site.

As well, the people who elect consciously or subconsciously to remain stuck should not bleed over on to others, have tantrums, make policy demands so they feel more comfortable in their stuck-ness or stifle a conversation because it makes them uncomfortable etc.  Making a choice to remain stuck is a decision one should own and can live with without impacting others.

None of this is anymore than my generalized opinion off the cuff, typed on my phone, in an effort to think over points you raised.  I would hope others could add or subtract their thoughts if they have an opinion. 

Lp

[OffRoad]

I completely understand what you wrote, LP, and agree with most of it. The rest I have questions about only because I'm still trying to figure out how people get "duped" by what is here. Were/are there posters who post as if their opinions are definitive "proof" that something is, when it is nothing more than their opinion? Oh, yeah. Ticks me off to no small degree.

Perhaps I am so clueless as to believe people can figure out who is screwed up from who isn't on their own, if only eventually.. IMO, sorting through that here has been a great help with my spotting screwed up people in R/L. Pollyanna Offroad believed everyone has the same or better intellect and capabilities as she does until it's proven otherwise. I've learned better, but still learnining.

I got all this information for FREE. I had the ability to choose to take it as gospel, or find corroboration or contestation.I suppose I'm not understanding how a person can be duped, when no one guaranteed them anything. What works for person A does not always work for person B in any part of life. People told me a live in MLCER was "better". Not for me it wasn't,  but I don't hold anyone responsible for my not kicking him to the curb and just waiting for him to move out. My choice, I learned something, I will not tolerate that situation ever again. All of that is 100% ON ME, No matter what anyone here posted.

What I got here was a lot of  different viewpoints. When I kept looking at everything from the viewpoint of HIS  mlc, I couldn't heal myself, hence changing the focus to "How do I want to live MY life? He'll sort himself or not." I started moving forward. But I did need to stop and do some recon first. I might have been "stuck" there for longer than someone else thought I should be, but it was just as long as I needed.

If anything about my experience can help another, awesome. But I'm not here to fix someone else. Let them figure it out like an intelligent human being without spoon feeding them all of the way. Let them stop blaming the rest of the world for their own choices given their situation. Let them be sad if their choices lead them to sadness. Commiserate if you want to and don't if you don't.

I don't believe people get stuck because of advice they get here. I think they get stuck because that is who they are at that time. Once someone is ready to move forward or change their stars, words that have been posted have new meaning. JMO. I am most certain everyone's mileage will vary.

[OffRoad]

OR, I completely agree with you but I think xyzcf may be right and you and I may not be normal.

MBIB, I revel in being not neuro-typical.    But truly, do you think people are looking for reassurance that their spouse is going to come back? Because that isn't here and hasn't been since I arrived over 4 years ago. I'm still trying to figure out why the site I've been reading seems to be different than what others are reading. This site always said "This was what worked for me" (RCR). What worked for her would never work for me,  So cool, one person's opinion. I am grateful I learned enough to never destroy any chance of reconnection on my part because I get to know I am not at fault if that never happens. Had I had an abusive mlcer, I wouldn't care. It matters how the mlcer behaved

Is the neuro typical thing to blindly believe anything you read? (Maybe so because...Social Media?) Again, I'm on board with I'm not normal. I would just like someone to explain why anyone would think reading/doing something guarantees them anything.

[xyzcf]

Quote from: xyzcf on November 28, 2019, 12:54:51 PM
.

People come to HS wanting reassurance ...especially they often want a rule book that will somehow influence the outcome.

I'm a people. I did not come seeking reassurance or a rule book. I came trying to figure out what happened, and how to survive having a live in MLCer, without destroying any possibility of reconciliation.

Sorry Offroad, I should have said "some" people come here.

[nah]

I will be the first to admit that I had zero critical thinking skills when I first joined this forum. I wanted the magical keys to get my marriage back and I did not want to let anything else in that would deter me from my one and only goal.

The old timers repeated again and again, “stop monkey-braining, take your focus off of him and onto yourself, GAL, He’s in la-la land, practice self-care, etc., etc.,...

Remember that advice?  I still feel whether or not reconciliation is a possibility (statistics don’t matter, IMO) focusing on yourself is the way to go.

Does anyone else notice a shift lately?

I give this same advice and lately the response is, “If you don’t like this thread, keep scrolling”, “What’s the big deal if I want to get in their heads?”  “We don’t need your protection”

Well, IMO (and usually the opinion of any old timer who has walked through Hell to the other side), the big deal of focusing on the MLCer is, yes, it keeps you stuck in the bargaining stage of grief (if I do/say the right things, if I’m patient, if I Love them more than the rest of you, I will win the MLC lottery). Now, if you were stuck in anger, the same exact people who wallow in the bargaining stage year after year after year would be yelling at the top of their lungs for you to forgive immediately or you will remain bitter for life.

I agree with Whyus, that focusing on any MLCer, currently or a self-proclaimed ex-MLCer is “dangerous”, maybe not bc their advice is necessarily dangerous but bc it keeps the LBS wallowing in the bargaining stage.

One of my favorite words of advice came from BBHelp, a poster who has reconciled with his wife, he often writes, “whatever you focus on gets bigger”, those words were so powerful to me.

I love that he reconciled with his wife, even though reconciliation isn’t in the cards for me, that doesn’t mean I don’t have hope for others, it’s not a contest. I just feel, like BBHelp, we need to put our focus where it belongs, in the firetrucking mirror!

[in it]

And I agree Nah. Denial, Bargaining we've all been there.

And I really think it would help newbies more if they were educated in the 5 stages of grief. And when you are processing or dealing with grief in my humble opinion you need to be left alone by these MLCers to do it.  You need peace and quiet and not all the chaos/ mixed messages/lies some of them create that keep the attention on them.  That means NC will be helpful.

Even if it's 30 days of nc, just something for the LBS to establish a boundary so they can deal with the shock of it all. You'll probably suffer a lot less emotional damage if you do with the things they say.

I had no idea I was grieving when I first came here. No one was dead. That's the only way I identified with grief is if someone died.

[lawprofessor]

"I don't believe people get stuck because of advice they get here. I think they get stuck because that is who they are at that time. Once someone is ready to move forward or change their stars, words that have been posted have new meaning. "

I used to believe that as well in a sense.  But in the last year or 2 I have come to think it's more complicated than that.  As I said above, we all have the propensity to get stuck.  But I'd toss out that the tone of the forum, the focus of the forum, who the newbies come into contact with first, as well as having a consistent message, a balanced approach between compassion and encouragement, and other factors matter as well it seems to me.

It's not so much that people get stuck because of the advice given here alone although some of that is questionable (like blanketly insisting one should let the MLCer own the divorce because God knows these people are not focused on our best interests or concerns overall much less thinking clearly generally).

It's that it feeds the propensity to get stuck.  And there is little counter balance to that message.  And I think that's at the crux of some of this discussion, that some posters are bothered by the unbalanced message being presented by a select group of vocal posters who seem to dominate the message at least at times and they no longer see the forum as having a focus on getting back on one's feet and managing life with a MLCer, healing, moving forward, being happy, being their own person, all which was thought to increase the possibility of recon if both parties someday chose, to a forum that focuses on the MLCer, thoughts, words, deeds, hidden messages in those, will they regret their actions, and conversely on the everlasting pain of the LBS and looking for psychological explanations for their issue, seemingly so they can skip right to being the most compassionate and forgiving LBS of the week.

Well, thanks for helping me narrow and define my thinking on this topic.

Lp

[Treasur]

Nah. I remember that phrase too...took a while for me to be able to use it but when I could, it madeva big difference.

But I also remember how kindness and feeling reassured that I was normal and not insane made a bigger difference first. Kindness is not enabling imho. It's a kind of gentle playing witness. And it is easy to forget perhaps a few years later as our strength and detachment shapes our MLC lens that probably most of us had an early time when we needed kindness like air.

Again imho grief, shock, fear and pain....along with the almost inevitable lies, gaslighting and blameshifting that seems to be part of an MLCers preferred toolkit...does stop most of us seeing our own wood for our own trees for a while. Seeing some of the inherent nonsense and futility of what we are trying to adapt around. The MLC lens fills a void for a while maybe....and what we come to believe about it may shape our choices. Which sometimes carry significant consequences. Simple ones too like continuing to expose ourselves to further hurt or confusion. I agree with init that an initial period of NC to catch our breath would help many of us....but of course we don't know what we don't know and by the time we do events have unfolded.

Perhaps we should be more specific early on about things like radical self care, what doing detachment might look like or different ways of GALing? Or ask people to consider where they are on the Fight/freeze/fawn/flight response spectrum. Idk. But I think newbies come here often in the equivalent of the ER and seeing the wood for the trees is part of moving to ICU perhaps.

I honestly believe that the beliefs we have about MLC shape how we use the MLC lens.

I have wondered sometimes too if there are things that make Standing more or less sustainable. I have no opinion or right to tell someone else to Stand, to not, or to go back and forwards about it. It is true I think that meeting your own needs, focusing on your recovery and wellbeing regardless, is a win no matter what happens. But I wonder if there is almost a tipping point of practical things that makes Standing less risky or more do-able for some situations than for others? I'm not sure....it may be different for different folks and I'd guess mostbof us come here as default Standers....but I suspect too that sometimes beliefs about MLC (e.g. that it is a long but temporary process, that the MLCer is in pain and confusion too) may encourage our beliefs about the merit of Standing or not filing or how much contact we have.

So, jmo, but it seems to me that being as honest with ourselves as we can about our own beliefs about the MLC lens shapes how we use it....which in turn shapes our actions and choices. And it isn't easy bc by then we have probably set some of those beliefs in quite firm ground as this link explains.   https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe And it is uncomfortable to challenge our own beliefs and uncomfortable to be in disagreement with HS folks who have supported us maybe. Maybe too why a few years down the line we see newbies post things and think 'well, if i had known then/been able to foresee how much worse it would get...i would have done x or y' but the memory of how shellshocked we were has faded a little perhaps? I know I started to make progress when I started to treat the MLC lens as optional and to care more about my own sense of what was around me than how I labelled it. And that did make me question what I did or did not believe about a bunch of things, as well as which beliefs served me or didn't.