[xyzcf]

I did not share very many details with our daughter. It is all deeply personal between her dad and I and  I wished to keep things private. I did speak to her about MLC, she could see the changes, the anger, the acting out with her own eyes. She knew that this was not and is not the father that she had known for 25 years.

He spends a bit more time with her now than he did for several years and they have their chat time every Sunday. We live quite far away form her so see her a couple of times a year. This was the first Father's Day he has spent with her in 20 years 

I don't ask about their time together. If she tells me something, I am open to listen.

She knows how I was pretty damaged for years....

Actually, I now remember something that has stuck with me...years ago, when I was a real mess, Stayed, a long time HS member told me "you had better get yourself together. Your daughter has already lost one parent, she can't afford to lose another". I am smiling when I read this now but not so at the time. 

He continues to keep his life pretty secret from her as well.

Some might call this playing "happy family" but I will disagree. Another person once said to me when I was "terrified" (and that is a word a friend used recently to describe how I was back then) that when I did have contact with him, treat him like a long lost relative that you don't know very well. Change the picture in your brain, reframe the situation,

Our son-in-law never knew his FIL prior to the crisis. The first time I could see them after COVID (19 months of not seeing my daughter!!!!) we stayed with friends who knew us before our daughter was born, just my daughter, SIL and myself...and over "adult beverages" the stories started coming out around the fire pit...I am smiling again.....my daughter was really grateful to these friends and the stories and laughter we shared that evening...she wanted her husband to know the father she had grown up with.

One time, when they were visiting in the home my husband and I shared before BD which is now my home, he and I were cooking, laughing, drinking wine, he was teasing me, the music was playing...you would really not know that we were not still a couple. My SIL said to me the next day "mom, I don't understand...and I replied, join the club".

We just let him be.

I don't talk to him about anything that is significant...some would say then why bother? I have learned (and another really good friend of mine in a similar situation) that there is absolutely no use in bringing up what happened, what I'd like to see, what my needs are because all I would get is that "deer in the headlights look" and it just isn't worth it.

He cannot meet any of my needs at this point. Acceptance.

But because I have peace about this..it works for my family. It doesn't for many others.

Most long term LBSers whose kids see their MLC parent separately, also have found that their kids are very aware of the "strangeness" the "alien" that once was dad or mom. Some adult kids never see their MLC parent and I cannot imagine how that feels to anyone...complete and total abandonment and rejection.

In therapy, when I discussed this dilemma with my therapist, should I see him or not, can he join us or not...she wisely said to me, "xyzcf, this is totally in your hands and you never have to make a permanent decision. You are ALLOWED to change your mind about this from one day to another. Nothing is carved in stone."

Freedom. I am ALLOWED. This is in my control and I can weigh it and decide each time whether this is good for our daughter and whether it causes problems for me or not.

I CHOOSE and that is the right thing for me and my family. Others may not wish to do so.

I do not have a relationship with another man. He keeps his life a big secret but I am aware there are OW's....if he were married or outwardly in a relationship with someone, I might have different feelings about this.

Recently, I accompanied him through two surgeries. In pre-op, staff asked several times..."who are you?"...I would say "a family friend". The one time the doctor asked him,
"who is she???" and he used my response and said "a family friend".....whatever.

It is a bizarre situation and we learn to mold our lives into a vessel that can tolerate whatever is thrown our way. We survive.

[Reinventing]

Onlythelonely,

I am no where near ready to extend the olive branch to him, nor do I think I should atm because he is still cycling.

Yes, we respect that the LBS is not a punching bag nor a martyr in this. The LBS needs to "put on their own oxygen mask first" and healing is a primary focus, especially early on. The gaslighting, lies, etc can be damaging and traumatic to the LBS, especially while they are trying to get their feet under them after their world drastically changed.

You can always change your interactions once you can catch your breath and have some time to heal. Nothing is cast in stone. Just take care of yourself first and foremost. That helps you and everyone else involved.

[Onlythelonely]

So here’s an update, and I need to vent somewhere and need advice.  I’ve been busy GAL ing the last couple weeks.  I have talked to RCR within the last week. Continuing NC with H. 
Nothing much has gone on the last 3 weeks except H refused to attend D21s birthday dinner and did a separate dinner with her, and S24 and I saw him at a local diner and he sat at the bar, separate from us. H is VERY MAD at me since I went NC. His last text to me was full of gaslighting and blame shifting.

D21 and I are out of town this weekend. This morning she woke up to texts from 3 friends who saw H and OW at a bar last night, kissing. They videoed the whole thing and sent the videos to her.  This is the first that I have been aware that he has gone public with OW the whole time this has been going on.

D21 is mortified and livid. H told her 2 months ago the relationship was over.  Her siblings are livid. D21 and S24 want to go no contact.

D21 texted H a photo from the video with No commentary. He texted her back that he loved her and he was sorry. That they could talk this week. She has not responded.

Please advise.. I am staying out of their interactions and letting her deal with this on her own, correct? Unless she asks for input?

Also while I’m shamelessly asking for support/advice.. H is drinking a ton, more than I have ever seen. Coupled with bringing OW public, and his anger at me, should I be looking at this as potential movement forward? Otherwise right now I feel like I am a fool for standing.

Sorry I’m just a little scrambled at the moment. His behavior is shocking, though I should have expected it. It’s going to take me a little bit to see it more clearly.

OL

[Evermore]

Hi OL

I’m so sorry your kids are having to deal with this. As you know my XH went public right from the start so my kids are now (nearly five years on just like you) used to seeing him with the OW. Doesn’t mean they like it any better or that it’s still not weird and unsettling.  They don’t see him that often these days (every couple of months) and I’m sure part of the reason is that uncomfortable feeling it gives them.
 

I am staying out of their interactions and letting her deal with this on her own, correct? Unless she asks for input?

Yes, I think you’re right to let her deal with this on her own unless she asks for input. She’s an adult and her relationship with her father is now hers to navigate. I know how hard it is to watch but say nothing in these circs!

As for whether his current excessive drinking and anger are ‘movement’, the most important thing I think I’ve learned is that nothing is a sign of anything. It’s very hard not looking for signs and wondering what each new weird thing they do means. I’ve got better with practice but even yesterday XH (I practice saying XH to try to get better at saying that too  ) liked and commented on some FB posts of mine and then sent me a text message about receiving some mail about our family health insurance. It was something we’d texted about previously so he didn’t need to text about it. He’s been very quiet lately with no texts and no FB liking etc. I could feel myself wanting to wonder about why and had to remind myself that none of this means anything!! At the end of the day he is still over there with OW. Unless that changes there are no signs that mean anything.

I can’t advise you about whether it’s foolish to continue to stand or not. That’s for each of us to decide and I struggle with this as well. I’ve recently kinda sorta started ‘seeing’ a very nice man. It’s very very early ‘just friends’ stage. In my case I feel I’d be a fool NOT to see where it goes with this guy… but I’d still like to put my family back together. I figure if it goes somewhere I’ll want that (putting my family back together) less and it’ll all sort itself out in the wash.

So for me it isn’t a matter of deciding whether I’m standing or not. I’m just dealing with the right now. So that’s the only advice I can give to you. Deal with the current reality. Have no expectations and don’t look for signs. If real movement happens it will be very obvious. You looking or not looking for signs that it’s happening has no influence on him and the situation. But always looking and wondering what things mean DOES affect YOUR peace and sanity. Aim to focus on your own peace and sanity. It’s the only thing you control.

[sachat3]

I think the fact he’s heavily drinking just shows okay he can’t be that happy can he.

The ow is just an insecure jealous bleep bleep. Mine ended up moving in with his ow. They bought a house together and my kids would stay every other weekend. They were 4,5&8 at the time, I left them to deal with it. Anything that involves their dad is on them. Sometimes D9 wants to come home on his weekend. Sometimes she wants to stay. It’s completely her choice. Ofcourse if she asks you respond and advise.

[One day at a time]

I also think you need to leave your adult children deal with their father whatever way they see fit and unless they ask for your input, I would stay out of it.

As for standing, well, this is what none us what to hear but, standing really should be for you, not for him or your marriage. He's going to do what he's going to do, no matter what you do. Some people stand because they truly believe that marriage is forever and even though their h/w decided to break their vows, it doesn't mean the LBS has to.

Some people stand until they get to some threshold where they feel there's no going back (e.g. the MLCer marrying the OW/OM or having a baby). Others stand until they feel back on their feet and ready to move on with life.. And I'm sure there's all sort of the other reasons.

Don't confuse the word stand with wait. If what you are doing is waiting for him to get over MLC, unfortunately, you might be wasting your time. There are no guarantees in this. Even if he eventually "wakes up", it doesn't mean he will want to go back to the marriage. I know it's hard to hear, but you really need to focus on you and your kids...

[Reinventing]

At the end of the day he is still over there with OW. Unless that changes there are no signs that mean anything.

And

So that’s the only advice I can give to you. Deal with the current reality.

I agree. Stay in reality and put on your own oxygen mask first.

Also, I really didn't want to be the OW to the OW. I respected that he could choose another life with another person--as gut wrenching and hard it was for me.

Understanding why this happened (MLC) helped me realize that it wasn't me or the marriage. But it didn't mean I knew the outcome. It helped, with time, answer that big "why" that kept running through my mind.

It also helped me turn my focus on to healing. I am thankful that that became my number one concern--to heal and become my happy self again.

I didn't break it, I couldn't fix it, but I sure could focus my attention on what helped me heal, feel better, get back on keel and do more of that. And do less of things that set me back and made me feel off kilter.

[Treasur]

Please advise.. I am staying out of their interactions and letting her deal with this on her own, correct? Unless she asks for input?

I agree with the others that your instincts are quite right on this. And that it is as true for the other kids too even if they take different approaches in how they want to deal with whatever kind of relationship they think they still have or want to have with him. It’s how we show young adults we respect them, isn’t it?

Along with a dollop of quiet compassion bc we LBS know what those seemingly relentless post BD mini-bombs feel like. Your daughter is being forced to process not just the reality of ow, and her friends’ response, but the knowledge that he lied to her. Again. That currently his words say one thing and his actions another. Working out how you feel about that reality, and what if anything you want to do with that, is tough and I can only imagine how hard it must be as a parent to watch from the sidelines.

Also while I’m shamelessly asking for support/advice.. H is drinking a ton, more than I have ever seen. Coupled with bringing OW public, and his anger at me, should I be looking at this as potential movement forward? Otherwise right now I feel like I am a fool for standing.

I think I see two implied questions here.
The first is if his recent actions imply anything positive or constructive about his growth towards being a rather better quality human. And, as others have said, that’s an unknown. Perhaps it’s a change of some sort in his behaviour but imho too early to tell (although I appreciate that sounds odd after years of MLC-type behaviour) and MLC types seem to have an extraordinary capacity for digging deeper holes long past the point where we think there is any more to dig. Imho it is as it is….and it doesn’t look like the behaviour of a calm healthy human trying to repair anything he broke….and it would probably be better for you to try not to infer anything from it at all, good or bad.

I suspect your impulse to do so though is linked to the second implied question about how you judge your own wisdom in standing and what it means to/for you. It sounds as if you are looking for evidence or signs in his behaviour that your choice was/is the right one. Or at least facing in the right direction. And that’s probably the glitch in the machine, albeit a pretty common one for we LBS. I agree with the others about treating these things as separate things….his behaviour or progress (or not) and your choice to stand (or not). Bc, if we are all honest with ourselves, if a choice to stand were based on the behaviour of MLCers post BD, none of us would stand at all, would we? 

So your choice to stand - or not, or somewhere in between - is much more about you, about what standing means to you, about what it practically looks like to you, about the cost or risks or benefits as you see them to you. Most LBS I think reach a point when we sit with that choice, probably more than once tbh, and no one here will judge you either way. But I suspect if, as you say, you feel as if you might be a fool unless you see x sign or y evidence based on his behaviour, you may well have inadvertently slid towards the standing as waiting for something (whatever that is) stance. Again, pretty common for most of us LBS, isn’t it, bc this stuff is not easy to figure out? But imho you may find it easier to reflect on your own choices, and what that means for your own next, without the distraction of too much contact or information about his doings either way.  Bc that allows you to make a choice that feels right and appropriate for where you are currently based on your own judgement and priorities.

[KayDee]

It must be really hard to get your bearings and work out what you want for yourself. Every time you create a calm space, your H pokes you. You went Smart Contact, he cattle prodded you with the 'I don't see us getting back to together'. You go NC, he acts out like a giant toddler, turning his back on you in the local diner, snubbing his children ta boot. Then he goes full on public display of OW.  I don't wish to spend too much time analyzing him, he is really acting like a small child and obviously still in a place of chaos, but it seems that this is a pattern, as he has come home and left several times. You said in your first post that you feel you should be further along - is it possible that his continual prodding keeps putting you back to square one? Kicking over your proverbial sandcastle? I completely agree with what everyone else has written, about your kids managing their own relationship with their father, so it is even more important that you prioritize your oxygen mask  because you also want to be there for them.  Your H will likely keep lashing out - bad attention is better than none - but until he looks within, this will probably remain his pattern. It's so hard to keep steady during all this. I know well the cycling of emotions. Meeting my H sets me back a little every time. But, I am determined to keep a check on this - to make sure it isn't something that completely drains me and stops me living my life to the full. It's hard to see, when in the maelstrom, but we can make choices (as opposed to react to provocations). NC, from your end, is for however long you want it to be, or maybe better put, for however long you NEED it to be.

[Treasur]

Lot of sense in what KayDee wrote. And I bet a lot of other LBS will practically recognise that pattern with boomerangs too - weird, isn’t it? 

Occurs to me as a PS that you might find it helpful - and you’re under no obligation to share it here - what standing (or not standing) practically looks like from the outside, regardless of how you feel (or your hopes) on the inside. Bc standing doesn’t need to be shared or even seen by anyone but you if you know what it means for you. Do you know?