[Onlythelonely]

Hello Everyone-

I have been a member here lurking for several years. I have had many coaching sessions with RCR, and I have reached out to a few members individually for advice. They have all helped tremendously. I have been hesitant to post publicly for several reasons, but I'm finally feel like I've exhausted my resources IRL and am going to attempt to put a very generalized post together looking for advice for the "stage" that we are in.

Very briefly- I have been married to H for 26 years. We have 3 kids in their 20's. Bomb drop was 10/18. OW found out for sure 5/20. He has moved in and out 4 times, and has currently been out for 15 months. I believe OW is done or winding down, (but I have been fooled before).
There has been massive financial infidelity as well but thankfully I am ( and will be ) financially fine no matter the outcome. H is also a workaholic clocking in 80-90 hours per week.

H has been a clinging boomerang the entire time. Had I not set stricter and stricter boundaries as time went on, he would still be clinging. He also had massive cycles and I saw plenty of monster, but that has calmed down somewhat.

I managed to protect the kids from the entirety of the situation until about 6 months ago. At that point H forced me into a situation where my options were to lie to the kids to hide his A, or tell them the truth, and I told them the truth.  The time since then has seen H move a little more forward with the kids, spending a little more time with them, but they will not approach him about what he is doing to the family or how they feel.
The last 6 months I have also maintained "smart contact". When we are together we get along well. I am detaching as much as I can, and have done many things to GAL, and I have my own IC, but I still have significant moments of cycling emotions.  I feel like I should be further along in this process but I guess I'm not.

Two weeks ago H and I had a lengthy dinner- probably the 5th or 6th time we have seen each other in the past 6 months. At the end of 2.5 hours he stated "he did not see us getting back together", and I completely lost it. With RCR's help I have been no contact since that point. I know this is a drop in the bucket.

Here is where I am really struggling:

1-  All 3 of my kids want me to file for divorce. They think I am prolonging the inevitable, see the situation as hopeless, and don't really understand MLC. They think I am rationalizing his horrible behavior.  At the same time they are spending time with him and not verbalizing their concerns to him, which leaves me with the brunt of things. I know it is in the kids best interest to have a relationship with their dad, but part of me feels like it is enabling to sweep things under the rug if they don't get the opportunity to express how they feel. Plus to be honest, I am jealous of the time they get to spend with them and I do not like this aspect of myself. It is impacting my relationship with them and I have tried very hard to have open lines of communication and be honest with them.

2- There is not anyone that knows the extent of what is going on, that has contact with H. He does not have friends outside of work, and he does not have family that lives nearby. So other than myself, no one sees the craziness of his life.  He is extremely successful at work and that feeds into his justification for his lifestyle. Basically, there is no one to challenge his poor decision making other than me, and in true MLC fashion, any issue or solution I bring up is immediately dismissed. 

I've done enough reading, reflecting and counseling to know that I cannot have any impact on his choosing to come out of this OR stop his workaholism. He needs to crash if there is any hope of change. I know intellectually that all I can do is keep detaching and GAL.

So I guess basically I need help to maintain a good relationship with my kids without putting them more in the middle of this than they are, or expecting them to be a catalyst for helping to change him.  I also need thoughts on if I am enabling him by keeping all of this craziness as private as I have-public knowledge would impact his career and our finances.  I'm just at the point where I'm not sure I can take on any more stress and still continue to heal, no matter what happens.

[xyzcf]

So I guess basically I need help to maintain a good relationship with my kids without putting them more in the middle of this than they are, or expecting them to be a catalyst for helping to change him.  I also need thoughts on if I am enabling him by keeping all of this craziness as private as I have-public knowledge would impact his career and our finances.  I'm just at the point where I'm not sure I can take on any more stress and still continue to heal, no matter what happens.

It is exhausting, the energy it takes to figure out how to live and make the best of a lousy situation.

I don't believe that anything we do "enables" them. They will do whatever they want. I have always been very protective of my husband's actions, except with a few friends. Actually, I have found nobody in his business world really cares. Many have been divorced and remarried and he's just such a "nice guy" that I think they believe I am responsible for our breakup.

They can be very successful in their career lives, they wear a mask very well it seems.

Counseling often looks at the relationships we have with our family members, what is happening in the marriage (without really understanding MLC). It took some serious mind/body work, 8 years after BD I found a therapist who specialized in trauma and then it took over 60 sessions over a period of 2 years before I started to feel more like myself than I had for the previous 10 years.

Each of has to choose what works best for ourselves. We have one adult daughter who lives in another country. He had very little to do with her for 12 years but they are managing to find a relationship of sorts.

In our particular situation, I decided that it is ok for us to be together as a "family"..otherwise we'd have to split time with her and I did not want that.

He has always been a "clinging boomerang"..he has never stopped being in touch with me but is still extremely secretive about his life. I don't get shaken the way I once did and the times we are together can be quite nice actually. We laugh and have the same views on certain things, but I do get angry at times when I hear about his life. One that I would have been sharing with him.

Eventually, I healed quite a bit from the "trauma" and figured out what could be salvaged from this broken family. I did not want to close all doors to him but I also wanted to be able to feel joy and peace again.

I am not sure anyone can direct us to this place of acceptance, calm and peace because there are so many factors to consider in each case. Each situation, although there are similarities, is unique to our own values and beliefs and our family situation.

I do see MLC as a crisis that neither one of us had any control over and the impact of his crisis caused me a great deal of pain and harm, as it did to our daughter. I do not think it could have been avoided and I don't believe he intentionally took this path to harm me..I don't think he even realizes how much harm this has done.

I never stopped loving him. There is still love, for the man he once was but also for this person he is today.

He recently had two medical surgeries and I assisted him for both of them...not because I expected it would change anything...but because I wanted to. Some people would call that "cake eating"..he didn't ask me ..I offered and I do think it was the right thing to do.

Acceptance, that was perhaps the biggest thing that helped me to get to the other side. I don't wonder anymore about his returning, he has been gone a very long time. I never wanted to give up on us, I am pretty stubborn that way but I learned that there will always be a place for him and that becoming stronger and able to be in his presence without it tearing me apart, I found it better for me in the long run.

I didn't involve my daughter in much of what I was going through. We have talked about what works for our family. Your kids wanting you to divorce him, it's not their call. That is for you to decide or not.

In my case, he sent me a text message 9 years after BD to say he was divorcing me...imagine that! Yet nothing changed in his contact with me. This is a prime example to me..what "normal" person does this?

5 years is a long time. Many on HS are still struggling after a decade or more...not like we once did...but there are still things that trigger us. Some have gone on to find new partners and perhaps that is a solution..it would not be for me.

Thanks for sharing. Here, you can talk about how you feel and others will share their stories..and perhaps that will help you not to feel so alone.

[forthetrees]

I went by the guideposts of not wanting regrets down the road. I don´t think you are enabling him by keeping quiet though there is the personal emotional cost to you not have the craziness validated. It is not worth blowing his cover as it would likely blow back on you. Finding a way to let the truth come to light due to his own actions is a path that allows you to drop the rope, really drop the rope, and not be tagged with his undoing professionally or reputation-wise in the community. That´s for the karma bus and his own actions to lead to consequences- let him reap what he sows, no need for you to harvest it for him.

Your kids are old enough to navigate a path to having some sort of relationship with him but they don´t get to dictate your marital status. It´s not your purview or job to express their feelings for them- please check out the Bowen Family Center in DC and look at their posts on triangles- you do NOT wan to engage in a triangle with your kids and H. Not worth being jealous of their time with H as he is likely an a$$hat in many ways to them so you´re not missing out on much.

I do wonder if some of your current angst stems from some anger and hurt at having kept the affair secret all this time and yet H still has a relationship with the kids. Also that you have put so much time into waiting to see if he´d change and have been shut down with a "I don´t see us getting back together." Both of those are another kick in the teeth and require processing hurt all over again. That is where backing away and taking a break from contact can allow you to avoid having yet another hurt inflicted. Self-preservation requires stepping out of the line of fire. Maybe have a period of time for which your kids do not report back on how H is doing but during which they know they can come to you to talk about their feelings. You cannot process their feelings for them, nor can you protect them from their Dad doing bone-headed or hurtful things. You can be there for them to listen. The NYTimes had a great article in which it said that you can ask people, "Do you want to be helped, heard or hugged?" That is a valid question for you as well.

Make this the summer of YOU! Check out the meet-ups in your area. Maybe you are also dealing with the sadness of being an empty nester along with all the LBS load. You are worthy of love and kindness.
FTT

[MadLuv]

Not sure this will help, but I struggled with some of those same things

1-  All 3 of my kids want me to file for divorce. They think I am prolonging the inevitable, see the situation as hopeless, and don't really understand MLC. They think I am rationalizing his horrible behavior.  At the same time they are spending time with him and not verbalizing their concerns to him, which leaves me with the brunt of things. I know it is in the kids best interest to have a relationship with their dad, but part of me feels like it is enabling to sweep things under the rug if they don't get the opportunity to express how they feel. Plus to be honest, I am jealous of the time they get to spend with them and I do not like this aspect of myself. It is impacting my relationship with them and I have tried very hard to have open lines of communication and be honest with them.

My 1stBD was same as yours and I stayed. I did move my now XH out for 10 mths and we dated and he moved back and then left again 10/20 and I divorced him within 4 mths. My D also thought at first BD I should be done, but just like their relationship is theirs so is yours and you have to do what you want to do. I think if not forced I would have stuck with the marriage as long as I could due to our history and family and age.

2- There is not anyone that knows the extent of what is going on, that has contact with H. He does not have friends outside of work, and he does not have family that lives nearby. So other than myself, no one sees the craziness of his life.  He is extremely successful at work and that feeds into his justification for his lifestyle. Basically, there is no one to challenge his poor decision making other than me, and in true MLC fashion, any issue or solution I bring up is immediately dismissed

Thats tough. My XH also was very high up and involved with a subordinate and I did not keep it quiet. I felt I had been betrayed and he moved on quickly with her and I did not feel I should hide his behavior. He did get fired from his 35 year career a day before our 1 year anniversary of our divorce and 3 mths after he moved OW in. He honestly had not been doing his job well as he was in crisis. You have to go with your gut, but always know that it’s not your burden to bare.

So I guess basically I need help to maintain a good relationship with my kids without putting them more in the middle of this than they are, or expecting them to be a catalyst for helping to change him

  This has been a very difficult process for me as well and I found that my S does not want to talk about it and my D tried very hard to accept OW for her Dad and that was very painful for me, but I finally stepped back and it all blew up. Unfortunately neither of my kids now have a relationship with their Dad and haven't seen him in 1 1/2 , but that is on their dad. I always tell them to leave the door ajar for their Dad, because I dont want them to feel embarrassed or  unable to be honest with me if they do reconnect and I do want them to have a relationship with their dad. I am glad that now it appears neither will accept OW and selfishly I am glad. I think you have to support them and do your best to not make them feel like they cant talk about their Dad in front of you. I actually recently put 3 old family photos up so they aren’t ashamed or feel like they cant talk about him. I also bring up old stories here and there. I dont want them to think I have resentment towards him, but I also have told them his behavior is unacceptable, but that is not who he is. I try to balance compassion, empathy and honesty.

[Onlythelonely]

Thank you to all 3 of your for your responses.

xyzcf- I understand what you are saying about being "protective" of H's actions. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but it does help me clarify. I sometimes have an internal debate about whether it's enabling his actions or "standing in the gap" to minimize the damage all the way around, and I lean toward standing in the gap. When we picked out names for our 3 kids, we never told anyone what we had picked because I didn't want to hear anyone else's opinions or feedback. I feel the same way about my decision now to keep things private. No one could possibly know what I/we have gone through unless they have lived it, and if I shared all the details, almost no one would believe me. My H is also "such a nice guy" and admired by all that know him IRL. I will look into trauma therapy as well as I am open to all avenues for healing. I give you credit for your ability to forgive and allow your H to still be part of your life. I don't think I am quite there.

Forthetrees- My goal throughout has been to be impeccable in my words and actions, and minimize the damage this is doing to my kids. I am no where perfect, but it has been a mantra that has helped me when making decisions and responding to H. I am familiar with triangulation ( but will look at the Bowen Family article ) and part of my reason for posting here is recognizing that I was veering into that territory. It's a very fine line to walk when trying to facilitate ( or at least not inhibit ) the relationship with the kids and H, but also be a sounding board for them and verbalize that what H is doing is completely wrong and bizarre, while personally setting a good example and not demonizing him.  H is also telling the kids that me discussing the situation with them is wrong, so there's another added element as well. I have had difficult conversations with 2/3 kids the last few days where they have finally verbalized to me that they understand he continues to not make sound decisions and is "messed up".   That has helped validate to me, at least, that they aren't thinking that this is how normal people deal with life decisions. They are just taking his bread crumbs when they can get them.

You are correct that this last week was definitely a "kick in the teeth" and it takes me a while to recover. I've had one encounter with him since I first posted that was pure monster, and it actually helped me distance from him as he just further demonstrated that I still cannot have any rational conversation with him.. I sort of felt he had moved past that, but it just came roaring back. It was a great reminder to me to stay away, for now.

MadLuv-We have a lot of similarities in our situation, it seems.  Can you explain a little why you were forced to D? I have the same goals as you with my kids and H. I can see where mine are hesitant to say when they are going to spend time with him, purely because my reactions have been poor. I'm trying hard to remedy that and provide an environment where they feel safe to talk about anything. It still hurts like crazy.  I keep telling myself that it is in the kids best interest to have a relationship with H, and that has helped a lot. Thankfully he has never brought OW public, and she may be gone, but all 3 kids have verbalized that they will have nothing to do with her. Again, they are in their 20's so a different situation vs. we were on a co parenting schedule.

 I know the Karma Bus will get here eventually, but sometimes I feel like it must have broken down somewhere or missed a turn!

[Standing Strong]

Hi OL 

What a rough spot, and so long already.

The thing which stands out to me is the circumstance: were he is now, and what he is doing.
His escape and passion is his work. In there (so long as he is successful) he can place his value, identity, reward, and whatever else..... it is safe (for him). I think we (LBS's) have to have value in order for them to come back, but when they put everything into career it's very hard to break them away. There needs to be disappointment and failure for them to change and grow.
My W was in this mode for years before BD, and it changed her so much (in a bad way). Not needing anything and deriving all her self-worth from work was so destructive.. and I couldn't snap her out.

For women with an H trapped in this cycle (especially ones who are really successful), I don't know how they are shaken loose or snapped out of it. In this way, I guess it's good when the MLC'er can't hold it together and gets fired or does something really stupid like quit to sell timeshares in Antarctica or starting a business reselling girl scout cookies year-round..... but the ones who compartmentalize and hold that one part of their life together effectively.... ouch. So easy to justify anything you want with success.

If you don't mind me asking: was he always a workaholic to this extreme? Or did it happen later? If so, suddenly or gradually?

-SS

[sachat3]

Hello, just thought I would chime in. Whilst I see similarities in our situation there are also huge differences. To your point 1) the children. Mine are much younger than yours. My oldest is 11. She struggles very much with it all. When her dad is around she turns quite nasty towards me, in a way to get on her dads side. Example being, if Clington (that’s what I call my MLCer) makes any sarcastic comment, even if it’s about him. Like say he says “do yoh like my hair it’s going grey” and I’ll sarcastically reply “oh yeah, that receding hair line is amazing” she’ll pipe up “have you seen your hair mate. And your fake tan”. But when he’s not around she’s different. She’ll make comments like “yeah dad can only be bothered with us 4 days a month”. It all boils down to she is hurt by his actions. I imagine that’s how your kids feel. They want you to get a divorce FOR YOU. But ultimately they will cling to their dad because they likely want his approval. They’ve seen how he has treated you, and they don’t want to be next.

If you feel like outting him will be in your benefit and help you feel better. By all means. Go for it. But again, speaking from experience. It’s unlikely too. Clington cheated on ow with me at the early stages and I felt so smug telling her everything. I had screenshots. I had it all. I thought (stupidly) it would change everything. It changed absolutely nothing. If anything it made her dog her claws in deeper.

Honestly it’s a tough old ride but it does get easier

[Treasur]

My sense of what you are describing - but I could be wrong - is that you have hit your own internal ‘buffer’ in some way, and whatever that means for you, your instinct is that some of how you have tried to navigate the last few years is no longer working for you. That you feel you need to do something different and so you are questioning a lot of aspects of your tactics to date. Is that how it feels?

And you are wise and sane and honest enough with yourself to see that you have a blend of emotions and priorities which don’t always sit at ease with each other? So, more to chew on, hence that feeling of running out of ‘resources’?

The first thing I want to say is that, if I have understand that sense of where you are rightly, you are not alone here. Quite a few of us will probably recognise that beginning of an internal shift and the confusion that comes with it.

The second thing I want to say is to commend you on your courage in looking for new tactics and in reducing contact while you figure that out. And tbh in telling your young adult children the truth, to whatever degree seemed appropriate, when your h was trying to bully or emotionally blackmail you into not doing so. Again, quite a lot of us here understand how hard it can be when those kind of ethical issues become something real as opposed to a tricky question on a philosophy paper!

I’m not going to comment on your current choice to stand, your pov about your h’s life choices or your last unsettling contact with him. There are others here much wiser than me about these things.

It sounds as if you feel as if you are in a deeply uncomfortable (for you) multi-pronged kind of virtual triangle? With your young adult kids and with the wider world in RL? A triangle where you feel judged in some way, unheard in others, helpless about some things and responsible for trying to mitigate the damage as you see it in other ways. If so, that’s quite a doozy of a mix, isn’t it? Exhausting to even try to put into words let alone sort out.

I can’t recall if you are seeing any kind of IC and finding that useful in thinking out loud and experimenting with different tactics. As I think someone else mentioned, I would encourage you to dig into deepening your understanding of how trauma affects our perspectives and problem-solving with some expert help if you can. That feeling of having one’s life upended to the point where it becomes unclear which way is up is hard for folks in RL to get, no matter how good their intentions, unless they have trotted in similar shoes for a little while imho. It sounds as if silence has sometimes been a ‘go to’ for you; it sounds as if gaslighting and a certain level of control is yoyr husband’s…..both of which are not uncommon in the LBS experience here. And it is quite possible that learning more about our normal human responses to trauma may also help you acquire a slightly more detached (in a good way) perspective on how trauma might underpin some of your kid’s responses as well as your own. Bc this upending, and all the confusion that came along after, did not just happen to you, did it? So all of you, in different ways, are trying your best to navigate it…..and young adult kids have less life experience, and an entirely normal level of healthy narcissism, in their twenties, right?

Without unpicking the detail of your situation, it sounds as if you may need to take a fresh look at your own priorities. What matters most to you at the moment as you stumble forwards? What has changed? What has evolved? And then imho, this may lead you to consider anew your own boundaries and the limits of what you are prepared to hold yourself responsible or accountable for. But again imho this kind of deep internal winnowing is almost undoably hard to do solo….hence the value of the right kind of thinking out loud IC.

With the caveat that I am not a parent, it seems to me that some of your desire to protect your kids and protect whatever remains of their relationship with their father is entirely normal. But perhaps the landscape renders these normal instincts not always so useful. Are kids, adult or otherwise, always better having a relationship with a disordered parent if they feel it is painful or distressing? I’m not so sure tbh….but if so, I suspect that this is not your job or responsibility to manage. Maybe your only job is to not get in the way of whatever they individually feel works for them? Or not? And as a human being, you are imho entitled to remind your young adult kids that, much as you love them and know they love you, you are also a human in your own right with your own needs at a given time that you would like them to try to respect even if they disagree or you do.

It can’t be underemphasised, I think, how wide and deep the ripples of this kind of life experience is. Sometimes to a degree that can be surprising even years down the road. Which is why, for most of us, there is an ongoing process of trial and error, of evolving into different ways of navigating our circumstances that didn’t seem appropriate before but now do. And I hope it at least helps you feel a little less alone that many of us do get it.

[KayDee]

Thank you to all 3 of your for your responses.

xyzcf- I understand what you are saying about being "protective" of H's actions. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but it does help me clarify. I sometimes have an internal debate about whether it's enabling his actions or "standing in the gap" to minimize the damage all the way around, and I lean toward standing in the gap. When we picked out names for our 3 kids, we never told anyone what we had picked because I didn't want to hear anyone else's opinions or feedback. I feel the same way about my decision now to keep things private. No one could possibly know what I/we have gone through unless they have lived it, and if I shared all the details, almost no one would believe me. My H is also "such a nice guy" and admired by all that know him IRL. I will look into trauma therapy as well as I am open to all avenues for healing. I give you credit for your ability to forgive and allow your H to still be part of your life. I don't think I am quite there.

I have this image of you standing in the gap (trench?) and taking a lot of flak, and I can imagine the culminative effect of this on your well-being, and that this is something you might not feel while you remain there in the gap. But it may be taking a slow toll on you, depleting the full-rounded, giving, loving you that your children need. I guess what I am saying is, that there is more than one way to minimize damage. Or to put it another way, there are other ways to support your children that doesn't whittle you away in the process. The sadness of my situation did show outwardly, much more than I thought. I didn't know that I wasn't being myself, until people told me later 'yes, you seem much more yourself now' 'you seem happy'.

What SS wrote really resonated with me. I see exactly this in my H. He gets his value and identity from his work at the moment. In fact, he slowly slipped into this sphere about a year pre BD. Now I see him as kind of living at/thru work. But I also see that this can be quite a cold existence, without long-term, close friends. It seems  that you might be your H's best friend, but what do you get from this relationship? I understand what you are saying about sharing this experience and that others may not 'believe' it, but you may be surprised. I have a couple of close friends who, in their belief in me, believe me. They also don't trash my H, or push uncalled for advice, but they have helped me stay grounded and keep my core sense of self. They don't (and shouldn't) replace IC, but good friends can remind you of who you are - not just the crisis you.

[MadLuv]

MadLuv-We have a lot of similarities in our situation, it seems.  Can you explain a little why you were forced to D? I have the same goals as you with my kids and H. I can see where mine are hesitant to say when they are going to spend time with him, purely because my reactions have been poor. I'm trying hard to remedy that and provide an environment where they feel safe to talk about anything. It still hurts like crazy.  I keep telling myself that it is in the kids best interest to have a relationship with H, and that has helped a lot. Thankfully he has never brought OW public, and she may be gone, but all 3 kids have verbalized that they will have nothing to do with her. Again, they are in their 20's so a different situation vs. we were on a co parenting schedule

  so, when he decided to leave he immediately said he wanted to divorce. He was so adamant about. We had just been looking at putting a bid on a lake home and so I knew something was terrible wrong. At that point I felt I wasn’t going to keep him married to me if he didn’t want to. I also came up with my own divorce settlement which was amazing and I assumed there would be some fight on it, but nope!! He agrees to it all. He Never hired an atty. i knew then that he was not thinking straight. My lawyer said you can get remarried but you will never get this settlement again. If there is someone else once she is in his ear hr wont be as agreeable. He did not one think for the divorce. I don’t know if we would be divorced today if he had to handle it. I doubt it, but I can what if’s forever. I secured things for me and my kids and felt if it was meant to be it would be.