[hrtnbig]

Wow that is strange that he goes on vacations with you and OW, I don't get that.  Seems like a lot of female management going on there.  Aren't women supposed to be exhausting?

[Mitzpah]

I am still waiting for my BD OW. Many people tell me that it is unreal to think that he doesn't have someone, but all admit that when they ask him right out he denies it. He doesn't really show any big signs of having an OW. In fact, I am reading Terry Real's book and it struck me that his case of depression really fits the carried over depression that runs from father to son, the 'terrible' legacy and he quotes George Santayana who said "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" in his case it is really a hero's journey because if he gets through this he will be healing three generations. Interestingly, all these men (h. included ) married very strong women, who were not destroyed by their h.'s MLC. His connection at the moment is with his half sister - the result of his father's affair. He is terribly sorry for her and thinks she is lonely and he needs to help her - save her from getting involved with married men (!!)
He also has a very close (too close in my mind) with the sister who comes right after him and who was his companion all through their troubled adolescence of father leaving home (a vanisher) and mother struggling to cope with a big house and four teenagers, having to go back to work after being a genteel SAHM for twenty years. Yesterday, my middle s17 got a brand new laptop from h. and sister-in-law as a joint birthday present (his birthday is only in August!) - it is as if I do not even figure in the family!
When he was our children's ages he had NO contact with his father and all he knew was that he had run off to be with this other woman and then when he was 20 he was told that his father was going to be a father again! two years later his father dies as a result of a heart attack brought on by alcoholism and smoking (and a very troubled mind!).
So what I see, is a desperate attempt to regain closeness with his deceased father to absolve him and unite with him by becoming him, except he is being the knight in tarnished armor to his half sister because of her absolute neediness for a 'father/male protector'. He is drinking a lot more and has gone back to smoking just like his father.
He told me on Sunday that he will be getting his 'own' place soon. I suspect he will rent an apartment with half sister, let's see...
I don't really know if he has an OW or if he is so focused on his sisters that he is shutting that part out of his life.

[Dontgiveup]

I posted the article link in response to your original question, which was when the alienator is gone, is the MLCer through the crisis.  The answer is no, or at least probably not.

My ex-wife does not appear to have OM now (the key word being appear) but she is still in her crisis.

[Dontgiveup]

Ok, I think I see what you are asking.  In my case, if my ex-wife has ended the relationship with OM, how do I know if she is progressing through the tunnel, or if she may be stuck?

I don't know for certain.  I think we only know most of the MLC progress in hindsight.  For instance, I know my ex-wife has not shown any anger toward me in about a year.  But obviously I would not have been able to say that 6 months ago.

I have no reason to believe my ex-wife is not still in Replay.  I would assume she is......but what can be noticeable over time is things like touch and goes, reconnection, and pursuit become stronger.  I see that in my friend's situation.....not as much yet in mine.

[HeartsBlessing]

The EA has run its course.  The 1st PA is over.  The 2nd PA could still be in the background, but is not the dominant force at play here.  I think even he sees that finally.  I don't believe he loves her, he's not saying he loves her.  This is about him and finally facing up to this unsettledness he feels.
I was asking if anyone else was at this place, but I guess the board is too young.
RCR?  Any help?

From what I know to be true, as long as there's an OW in the picture, the MLC'er is still in REPLAY; all Replay behaviors INCLUDING the OW must be FINISHED, before the MLC'er moves on to the next phase of the tunnel.  Depression shows throughout the crisis; as does Withdrawal...both these components are seen within the crisis until the Acceptance phase; then eventually these will fade; as the MLC'er resolves themselves AND their issues.

I have NEVER seen a case where the OW/OM stayed over into the Depression/Withdrawal/Acceptance/Settling Down Process of this.  Even the ones I know that chose to go on with the OW/OM, are STILL in the tunnel at this time; and have been for some time.

The OW/OM represents one or several issues they need to resolve; and in the MLC affair; they are looking for something; and they may or may not find it...depending on what they decide.  Some MLC'ers have multiple affairs as they are searching for SOMETHING that will satisfy their longing/wanting; and that SOMETHING is not always known by the LBS; but IMHO; they won't find what they are searching for; as damaged people cannot help heal damaged people; and the whole "relationship" is comprised of damaged people; each person with severe baggage.

What I HAVE seen, however, in my own experience was while my husband was in his extended crisis; fighting his last issue; he had an EA during that time that I was responsible for breaking up; but he was at a different place than your husband, having already come through his initial crisis.

Yet, he was still damaged by this one issue he tried to avoid/set aside; but it was biting him and hard.  So, there were aspects of the original trip through the first tunnel that was I was a witness to...on the other hand, you could say, he jumped right back into a Replay phase of this secondary tunnel....I haven't thought that completely out, just yet; it's elusive to me at the moment.

In the cases where the MLC'er leaves and returns; and after a period of time things go south again for the couple; it is evident they never exited the tunnel; as they've simply picked up where they left off; for a variety of reasons; which I won't go into, here; it's been written before.

IF your husband gets "stuck" you will KNOW; I can't say exactly HOW you'll know; but you have intuition, therefore; you'll KNOW.

Maybe this might help, I don't know; Good luck in your search for  further answers, LIW... 

[Mamma Bear]

  HB I find comfort in your words. I thank you for sharing your experiences. They help me to see things I wouldn't have ever thought of. My H was such a tender kind soul before this lead in to BD and everything after. It is all so choreographed it is eery. I pray that my intuition is correct about this whole matter and I know I'll be fine either way.
   This whole OW thing is just crazy BS You can see it from a mile away. Too bad our little tender hearts are torn asunder in the process. I guess that's what Paving is all about. Paving your heart to be protected.

[Dontgiveup]

I am not sure I agree that the OW/OM must be gone before they can begin moving to the next phase of the tunnel.......on the other hand, I'm not sure I disagree either (maybe I should just say I don't know).

I don't know (that's better)

Anyway, I've read numerous times that stages overlap.......and not to get caught up in stage analysis.  So, with that said, would that not apply to any of the stages, including Replay with OM/OW perhaps still in the picture?

RCR wrote this in the reconnection article:
If your MLCer is dating, it is likely casual or peripheral, often it is not the original alienator and may be for the purpose of companionship rather than the fireworks they may have sought in Replay.

[unbroken]

This is from RCR

Some believe that the OW relationship will not survive into Liminal Depression and that this break-up may even be what facilitates the transition into Liminality. Though the latter may be true, it is not so in all circumstances, and the idea that the affair will not continue beyond Separation is misleading. The affair can continue through Liminality, but the nature of the relationship will change. The fantasy woman let her guard down and revealed herself; instead of infatuated, the MLCer may now feel trapped or stuck. Since he's destroyed everything else in his life, he might as well suffer through it and make this last thing work.

[HeartsBlessing]

Considering it's a totally free country; anyone and everyone is welcome to agree/disagree/somewhere in between; it's all the same to me.  Nobody's gonna get flamed; just disagreed with.

Just remember, I'm not trying to "fix" or change anyone's perception; each person sees things differently; and though, I keep an open mind about everything; I still know what I know; and it is what I know.  And, what I know I know, is not likely going to change anytime soon.

No OW/OMs are the same; but you tell me, WHO in their right mind gets into an affair?  Certainly not a well balanced mature person; each person that entangles themselves in an illicit affair has problems; and are emotionally broken; not to mention the lack of respect for themselves.

Again, I've NEVER seen an affair nor multiple affairs last beyond Replay in the cases I've seen; a couple ended their affair or multiple affairs; returned to try and rebuild their marriage; all the while still navigating toward the end of the crisis.   I've seen and known MLC'ers who've gone on with the OW/OM; some got stuck; and some were trying to move forward in their crisis, but the OW/OM is not the right kind of stanchion; and they will try and keep the MLC'er right where they are in the tunnel....like anyone else, OW/OM HATES change; and will do whatever they can to keep it from happening...this is the immaturity within them.  This can spell the beginning of the end, as the OW/OM lets their guard down; and starts putting pressure on the MLC'er; which can, in turn, cause them to begin to awaken to what they are doing.

AND, because the LBS has possibly moved on to a point where they no longer want the MLC'er; well, the MLC'er gets literally stuck with the choices they've made; and they can feel they have no choice but to stay with what they have, currently, and try to make it work....or they may walk away from that person....who knows?  The choice lies within the hands of the MLC'er; and to an extent, the LBS; because the LBS has the decision to either begin to rebuild the marriage with them, OR reject them.

Choices lie on BOTH sides of the equation; and there are NO guarantees; regardless of what is chosen by either the LBS or the MLC'er...there is only hope, and the work done within the LBS.

Plus, the MLC'er is on a search, a quest, if you will; and they may or may not find their way back to the LBS spouse; I do agree with RCR on the point that if they decide to go on with the OW/OM; it doesn't necessarily mean they will get stuck in the tunnel.  But in my humble opinion, the majority of the MLC'er who choose to go on with OW/OM, will do it during Replay, for a number of different reasons...seen that quite a few times.

I could go on and on; these are some of the possibilities. 

However, I have disagreed before concerning OW/OM lasting into Depression/Withdrawal, or even into Acceptance; and I will disagree again; and RCR knows I disagree with this; we just agree to disagree; doesn't mean she's right, and I'm wrong; and it also doesn't mean I'm right and she's wrong; we just see things differently; and that's the beauty of being different; and I respect what she has to say, even when/if I disagree.  And, I would hope she would respect my viewpoints, as well, even as she sometimes will argue with them, LOL!

On the other hand, the OW/OM is a band aid for the problems the MLC'er is running from; and as long as they are running; they are NOT facing their issues.

Replay is just that, Replaying times in their lives where they were not only damaged; but their state of mind seems to give them(at least in their mind), a certain freedom they feel entitled to; and they take the rope and run with it; getting themselves in pretty deep until they wake up to what they are doing, IF they ever wake up.  As they begin to make their way into Replay; then, come the issues they need to face; starting with the most painful; is it any wonder why most run away; and grab a band aid to put on the wound; so they don't have to look at it, much less deal with it.   In time, however, the band aid wears thin; and begins to show damage; and they will either grab another band aid; or begin to face themselves.

That's NOT to say they attempt a return to the marriage after the affair is broken off; and after a time, decide to walk away from the marriage completely; and in that process start all over again...I think this would be a two fold kind of path they would be facing....they can decide to jump into dating game, OR they could just go on until a later time.  They would still be in the tunnel, unfinished; but it would be open to speculation as to whether they will finish at a later time; or not at all; remember, it's THEIR choice; not anyone else's.

When it all comes down to brass tacks; the choice is up to them; only they can make the choices they feel is right; this could go either way; and this is the rub, the crapshoot, the uncertainty of the outcome.

Food for thought; in my experience; there has never been a "right" way to navigate this crisis; and the only guarantee you even have is the work you do on yourself.