[ConfusedHusband]

Hello

I've not posted on here before however I wanted to share my experience in case others are able to shed some light on things based on their experience.

My wife (41 yo) exhibited the symptoms of a MLC last year (roughly between April and November, though Jul/Aug was better) before then getting through it at the end of the year and being stable to April-ish this year, since when she's been up and down. The background is that she finished her phd Feb/Mar 2024 having done it part time over 6 years such that she was able to run the home, bring up kids (who are now 13 and 11 yo) etc. Post completion of the phd last year she therefore was hit with the uncertainty about what comes next which lots of women experience when their kids are younger (eg when the youngest child goes to school). Returning to work was never a realistic prospect given my wife's depression has meant that she's unable to hold down a permanent role (she tried to again go for interviews last summer but couldnt manage it). From April last year she was very distant, emotionally cold, spoke of needing space at times etc. Around early Nov she suggested that she gives 'us' until just after xmas and then make a decision on our future then. Nov/Dec saw an improvement as she focussed on a book which she wanted to write and for the last 6 months the research for that book has kept her focussed, energised, happy, motivated etc (as well as some other related things which she's had the time to focus on).

More recently though, she's had doubts about the likelihood of getting the book published once its written and I believe it's those doubts which are giving her questions about her future again. This has bought more migraines (which get caused by stress) and depressive down periods over the last couple months, though thankfully those depressive periods have only been 24-72 hours and have resulted in her sleeping a lot rather than on anything more. However on Friday last week she suggested that we spend too much time together and that she needed some space - I work from home 3-4 days per week so its true that we are both in the house quite a lot. She suggested as a result that I get an office somewhere or WeWork etc. The surprising thing about last Friday's conversation was that I was travelling most of the week, she was chatty over WhatsApps and when we spoke, signing messages with kisses and then very happy/huggy when I came home on Thursday night. Since last Friday she she's been less distant, but not wholly normal, until today when she was very friendly all day...until a point in the evening when, as I was on the way home from a work dinner, she unfortunately messaged asking whether I had looked at offices, but then promptly signed the next message with a kiss (her messages are very transparent - when matter of fact and cold, they end with a '.', when more happy end with a x).

So its all somewhat confusing. I actually so get the need for space given that when I'm stressed (which isn't too often) if she smoothers me or tries to lift me up, I kind of don't want that and prefer peace and quiet. Therefore if she's going through some internal turmoil/angst, I do understand that space can help. She's also said to me very recently when we were talking about a friend of hers who suffers from depression about how she's grateful for 'all that I've put up with from her regarding her own depression' (we've been married 17 years).

I'd welcome others interpretations of the above. Is this a MLC? Are recurrences of a MLC normal which seems to have happened here (if it is one?) How should I react? Should I push back on the office thing, or accept it in order to buy some time and provide her with time to get back to normal? Is the 'space' thing and office suggestion a way of her gradually wanting us to split up...or is it her wanting us not to split up by providing some distance?

I'm wary of asking questions like the above to her or asking her about her views on 'us' because, whilst various articles talk about communication, my experience of dealing with a spouse's depression is that you categorically do not ask a depressed person to make big decisions (as its not the real them making the decision). You just buy time. Literally the last thing you do with a depressed person is ask them to make big decisions, and it seems to me the same would apply to someone with a MLC.

I love my wife and wouldnt want us to split up. I love my kids - they're amazing - and we're generally a very close knit family who spend a lot of time together and each don't have a huge number of friends at all. I've deovted my life to my life and family, sacrificing hobbies and friends. My wife isn't massively sociable, finds it hard to meet new people and quite introverted.

I'd really welcome any views on the above and what people things I should do about the space/office thing and more generally.
Many thanks,

A Confused Husband!

[zartheit]

Hello ConfusedHusband. Sorry you find yourself here.

I can relate to this post a lot. For me, that time felt almost like being in a loud room and trying to negotiate. Some of the words were getting through but I couldn't follow the conversation. Surely there must be a coherent rhythm to it and I simply am not able to follow it. I tried to work harder to understand, to read her lips, to estimate the likely next word. At least in my case, there was no misunderstanding. There were simply a collection of statements that didn't mesh with the actions I was seeing. It took me an incredibly long time to accept that.

I'll try to answer your questions but I'm afraid my responses may seem withholding.

Is this a MLC?

No one can know. MLC isn't a well-defined object with sharp contours and bold edges. It's a chaotic mess of symptoms and behaviors. From what you've described, it doesn't seem outside of the "norm" (for whatever that's worth). Regardless of any label we could attach, your wife's behavior is erratic and hurtful. She herself doesn't seem to have an endgame. It's good to see these clearly, with open eyes.

Are recurrences of a MLC normal which seems to have happened here (if it is one?)

Yes, there are a few stories in this forum of that happening. If we think of MLC as a style or family of coping mechanisms, then it seems reasonable that this behavior would repeat until the individual would deconstruct it as a response to various emotions.

How should I react? Should I push back on the office thing, or accept it in order to buy some time and provide her with time to get back to normal?

There is no RIGHT answer. The framing of "should" already has an implicit model that exists objectively "out there", if only one were sensitive or clever enough to sense it. There is no template or form or mold. There is no rulebook, or strategy guide. There aren't even any laws. Similarly, the future is unpredictable. There is another assumption that this is an aberration or mistake, and that, with time, things will "get back to normal". How do you know that? I don't ask that as a challenge, I ask it sincerely, genuinely.

Is the 'space' thing and office suggestion a way of her gradually wanting us to split up...or is it her wanting us not to split up by providing some distance?

It is impossible to know. I, personally, would be surprised if she herself knew.

All of this is to say, nothing is given or certain. Your partner is behaving in strange and unfamiliar ways. Your partner has explicitly called into doubt her belief in your relationship. Your partner has done nothing to repair or strengthen the relationship. She hasn't attempted to ally those doubts. Your partner does not appear to me to be reliable.

When I found myself in this position, I didn't want to truly believe it. Surely all of these other relationships had some kind of achilles heel, or fault. Surely these people don't understand the strength of our bond, the depth of our love. Surely this is a hiccup. Regardless of how I viewed my situation, the advice I received was helpful:
 - detach
 - focus on yourself and your well-being (and take your eyes off your partner)
 - do more of what brings feelings of wholeness (i.e., do more of what you like)
 - do less of what diminishes you (i.e., do less of what you don't like)
 - surround yourself with people that love you (friends, family, support groups, therapist(s), etc)
 - spend time in nature in whatever way you can
 - sleep as good as you can
 - eat as healthily as you can
 - focus, as much as you are able, on the here and now

Half of this probably sounds incomprehensible (at least it did for me: "what the hell do detach and give-space ACTUALLY mean?"), but eventually I came to some sort of internal understanding which made sense to me.

All of our situations our unique. If anything I wrote doesn't feel right, throw it out. Trust yourself. That's all you can do.

Again, sorry you find yourself here.

[forthetrees]

I would venture that depression and MLC go hand-in-hand. You didn´t say if your W is getting Rx for depression and I hope she does. If she takes meds but not sessions with a therapist I would want to have a joint session. I would not go rent an office with the uncertainty of whether or not she´s got one foot out the door. I would not want to have a financial commitment like that.

You are used to being around someone depressed so are your "spidey senses" telling you something is different/new? There are some really efficacious approaches to depression now- ketamine under the auspices of a trained professional can have dramatic and rather quick turn arounds. I would want to explore the avenues of more efficacious treatment for depression bc in the end you want to be communicating with the core her not the depressed her. That said, ultimatums likely won´t bring you closer to a more "normal" family life day-to-day.

There are some great books about introverts and you could show your love by reading one so she can feel understood. And for you, radical acceptance is key and finding joy and purpose in your own life as an individual.

Sometimes I think that in a situation like yours the depressed person is grateful for being able to rely on their partner but at the same time may resent that person bc in their mind the contrast in coping skills "makes them look bad." Basically, you get spew bc you were so good at being supportive. You have the ultimate challenge of being supportive but not being an enabler.

NAMI most likely has on-line support groups for people in your situation. They offer small groups with a leader that meet once a week for about 2 months. Just looked it up and yes, they have in-person and zoom peer led support groups for spouses.

[Standing Strong]

Hey CH 

Based on what you wrote...... I would say "no, not MLC".
This is good, and bad...... but I think most would say "better" at least from the MLC perspective.

The reason I'd say this isn't MLC is because she doesn't hate or detest you, and she isn't running full speed out the door (or alternatively trying to push you out it instead).... and she is not throwing herself headlong into trying to divorce.

So MLC? I don't think so, however something is happening, absolutely..... and you hit the nail on the head about change, age, and then mix in a prolonged depression into all that. That's a nasty recipe. That would certainly result into a very fragile person. The bad thing about you situation would be just about anything you do will make her feel worse about herself (and she'll lack the ability to pull herself out on her own). That's a conundrum. Try and support more = she feels worse. Try and be extra strong = she feels worse. Leave her alone = she feels worse.

I was talking to a therapist a few years ago about depression, and he was talking about his cases - how they start off with one person in depression and end up with both spouses with depression. It is a challenging thing (to prevent this from happening), but it is something that should be known. Often it isn't just the "suffering spouse" who needs help, as both are suffering (one outwardly, and the other concealing it as they attempt to help).

The most important thing in your situation to understand is: she's very lucky to have you. A loving, caring, compassionate, understanding and patient husband is the greatest thing a damaged and wounded wife can have....... but it will cost YOU.

What is her phd in? 

-SS

[Treasur]

It sounds as if two things are going on? You are trying to fine tune your magic mind reading hat….is that normally part of what you see as your ‘job’? And something about the situation is making you uneasy enough to come here with the questions you’re asking….do you know what that is?

I’m not sure I can answer your questions bc my first instinct is that they may not be the real questions that are most useful. Sorry. But my best advice, if you don’t already do this, is to find a decent therapist for YOU who has some serious expertise in the effects of depression and living with a depressed partner. Why? Bc I suspect you may need a safe place to think out loud about what you think you’re dealing with and how you adapt to it in a way which works for you as well as others involved. And imho it’s quite hard to see the wood for the trees when were bang snack in the forest alone!

I have a chum who has spent the last year caring for a younger sister with a TBI and some other health issues. It has upended her life and at times been quite overwhelming for her. The question that she constantly finds herself cycling around is how much of her sister’s behaviour is ‘can’t’ vs ‘won’t’, and how she differentiates the facts of the behaviour from her own rather generous magic mind reading hat about the why of it. (Which is exhausting too of course). And what is her responsibility or not, within her control or not. Although I act as her friend, I occasionally don my professional coaching hat to ask her questions to help her figure out what she actually sees as opposed to why she thinks things are happening, observable facts and patterns over feelings and solutions for another person. Even occasionally reminding her that x is not normal for adults or that there IS a pattern or, most importantly perhaps, that she has done nothing wrong and some things are just not her job to fix solo. I say this bc any long term relationship develops norms and we humans are very good over time at normalising things that are perhaps not so healthy or constructive. The drip drip effect of living beside someone with mental health challenges does that imho. But it is very hard to assess and take the wider view when you are just doing it inside your own head! And I hear in your post quite a few ‘norms’ about your wife’s ‘can’t’s that suggest that might be true for your situation.

As an example, about the whole office/space thing, it’s interesting that both you and your wife seem to think that HER desire for ‘space’ means YOU doing something differently. If she is the one who wants the ‘space’ - and this also the one who understands what ‘space’ actually means to her and why/how that would be helpful - why would it not make sense for HER to do something differently as opposed to you? That both of you seem to think that it’s your ‘job’ to jump into fixing something or giving her what she wants without even being able to really understand it or discuss alternative options that SHE might take. I am not saying this in a judgemental way to be nasty about your wife, please accept that; but I am saying it in an evaluative way…sort of pointing at the elephant in the corner and wondering what you see as opposed to what others might see. Does that make sense?

Damaged folks can be tremendously self-centred even if they are also nice people in other ways. And the cost of that can be very high to those around them. Which is why most people in your situation eventually find that they need some reasonable boundaries about where one person ends and the other begins. (You might find it helpful to read up a bit about Transactional Analysis which is great for seeing patterns between ourselves and other humans built up over time, an oldie but a goodie I think the original book by Eric Berne is called something like Games People Play?)

So, my best advice is to find a skilled solid person to help YOU  figure out from YOUR perspective what YOU see as the reality of life with your wife…and what feels doable to you and what does not. Bc it sounds as if, inherent in your questions, you feel as if something has shifted and you are no longer quite so sure what is going on or what is the best course of action for you?

We are of course here to support you the best we can, MLC or not. You might find it helpful to start your own thread rather than a general discussion one. Right now, given that we can’t answer your office/space question either any degree of certainty, how else might we help you? What do you see as the priority for you and your kids right now?

[Treasur]

Oh and an important PS….all of us here have lived experience of living with either a ‘wounded bird’ spouse or one who suddenly became so. All of us here have some experience of turning ourselves inside out or becoming human pretzels at great cost to try to keep a marital show on the road. So we get it, and our questions or challenges come from that experience. I can almost guarantee that there is nothing about your situation, or your own thoughts or feelings, that at least some of us are not nodding along thinking ‘yup, me too’ 😜

So we are not judging you here bc those shoes are recognisable to us.

Some of us are still stumbling along in them. Some of us are long past that and look back from the cheap seats at a wider vista. But every person here gets at least some bit of how it feels to be you right now, how hard and confusing it is, and we are very very sorry that you find yourself in this situation.

So, if nothing else, a hug from here x