[Arcticfox]

H let me know by text yesterday that he will not join me and the kids for niece’s confirmation party + the two hour drive each way. Text message said: sorry, i can’t do it. He did ask to write his name on the same congratulations card though and wanted to gift niece some money (he is her godfather). I said (texted) that is okay and we agreed that he can come to our house to sign the card today.

As I came home from the cottage w/ kids today, I noticed that there was some of h´s stuff still in the living room. Some empty moving boxes and some items. As he came to sign the card I asked him to take out the stuff. He said okay, I promised he can borrow the car. So as he was packing up the car i went outside to chat. I was sad that he is not coming to the party as I had done some small renovations at the cottage and also braved a difficult treetop adventure route at a nearby amusement park (never done even the easy ones as I am afraid of heights so h has always gone with the kids) and I had thought the long drive would be a natural situation to brag about my accomplishments. So I went outside to discuss. He was uncomfortable at first but soon it started to get better.

So, I asked him if he is all right. (Living in his new place). He said yes. That he is not feeling depressed or anxious like before. He did show really weird facial expressions though. Don’t know if he felt bad telling me that or what? Then he told me that he does have some feeling but he doesn’t know what it is. (Did I say he has no emotional skills?) Well i said to him that this whole thing is really odd because I was happy being married with you. Odd how two people can be in such a different place. But i did keep asking him last winter, what is wrong and why he is depressed. And I got no answer so I couldn’t have know. And in hindsight there were of course some things that could be done differently.

I then asked him about a certain habit of mine, if it had bothered him. He said no. And he told me that it is no use thinking if I should change something because it will not help, there is nothing i did wrong. So i asked him if it is his thing that is the problem. And he said guess so… but don’t know what it is. And that he should probably see his friends and start an old hobby of his again. Well I have been telling him that for years. It was just work and weight training at home for him.

We both cried a little. But I feel really bad now. He has no other woman to go to, as far as I know the Woman at Work is not interested. So he is just off to search for himself. It feels so bad that he can’t even bear living with me for the childrens’ sake and is rather alone than with me. I feel hopeless at the moment, and also stupid because I still want to hope. I knew that our marriage was in the center of my life, but yet I didn’t truly know how important it was for me until I lost it. (Well, he didn’t want to file for D … yet). At least I didn’t ask any stupid questions about love, or whether we still have any hope as a couple!

We do have a MC session reserved exactly 1 month from now. He brought that up and I thought he will say lets cancel it, because the overall tone of the discussion was so unenthusiastic about our relationship. But he didn’t say that so I said see you there then. And he said, we also need to stay in contact because of the kid’s arrangements. So I guess things could always be even worse than they are now. And he is going to IC as well, his health insurance will cover 10 sessions which is very little in my mind. But better that nothing. So I suppose I can do nothing but wait.

Forthetrees, you have such a good knack at enjoying the little things in life! This is what I also must try and keep doing at least for a little moment every day. And of course keep the everyday life rolling for the kids, dog and me. Although I am inclined to worry a lot about thing I can’t control (well why would one worry about things they CAN cotrol…?) but I tell myself it is also okay to worry a little, that it is only a feeling and so is crying, it is also okay that I cry a little every day and on some days a lot. That is only normal in this situation.

[zartheit]

I want to just say I'm sorry. It sounds like you are firmly in it right now and it is overwhelming. Even though you're going through this, you don't deserve this.

I had thought the long drive would be a natural situation to brag about my accomplishments.

I remember those invisible hopes and expectations. It was incredibly hard for me to unravel the interconnectedness of us. It was made even harder because I didn't want to! But when I was finally stably able to, it was like dropping a heavy weight I didn't realize I had on my back.

So, I asked him if he is all right. (Living in his new place). He said yes. That he is not feeling depressed or anxious like before. He did show really weird facial expressions though. Don’t know if he felt bad telling me that or what? Then he told me that he does have some feeling but he doesn’t know what it is. (Did I say he has no emotional skills?) Well i said to him that this whole thing is really odd because I was happy being married with you. Odd how two people can be in such a different place. But i did keep asking him last winter, what is wrong and why he is depressed. And I got no answer so I couldn’t have know. And in hindsight there were of course some things that could be done differently.

He can say he's not feeling depressed or anxious anymore. He might even believe it. I can't imagine undergoing a major life event like separating and moving out and feeling nothing but peace and contentment, even in the best possible circumstances. And it's reasonable to want insight into his choice, which impacts you considerably and which he undertook without consultation or consideration, but I don't believe he is capable of providing answers.

I then asked him about a certain habit of mine, if it had bothered him. He said no. And he told me that it is no use thinking if I should change something because it will not help, there is nothing i did wrong. So i asked him if it is his thing that is the problem. And he said guess so… but don’t know what it is. And that he should probably see his friends and start an old hobby of his again. Well I have been telling him that for years. It was just work and weight training at home for him.

I am glad you heard that it wasn't you. It must be frustrating to see him say he is the problem and yet... not change anything. I do not believe seeking insight from him about you will bring you anything of value.

We do have a MC session reserved exactly 1 month from now. He brought that up and I thought he will say lets cancel it, because the overall tone of the discussion was so unenthusiastic about our relationship. But he didn’t say that so I said see you there then. And he said, we also need to stay in contact [...].

I personally wouldn't read anything into this. In my own situation, marriage counseling did nothing except cost me money and upset me. It wasn't a "safe space" for me to share my experience, as anything I said was only used as ammunition against me. Any suggestions that the therapist made were only attempted by me; my ex-wife did not try at all. When my ex-wife would voice things in a session, they tended to make no sense to me (saying things vaguely like she was at the bottom of the societal hierarchy). For the things that I DID understand, she would phrase them in ways that I now believe were trying to manipulate the therapists into "siding" with her (e.g., "I only want to be in a relationship that values my mental health").

[Arcticfox]

Hi zartheit and thank you! You’re right this is overwhelming. Being at home and his desk missing, his mattress gone… he took so much of his stuff, he really moved out not just took a hiatus.

I admit it is a bit silly to hope that showing how competent and active I am will change his view on me. As we see less of each other every meeting seems important to plant positive seeds. Well I am at the moment not detached at all! Totally the opposite. Like I would do almost anything to get him back, even though when I look at his faults I don’t even like him that much. So many writers here say they had their spouse on a pedestal, wonder if that predisposes a relationship to MLC? And I have done it, too. But even now as I have become aware of what kind of person he really is, my skin misses his touch so much.

I would certainly like to be in the 5% whose spouse returns to them. Funny how the other favorable outcome, being happy without him, doesn’t seem nearly as tempting. Maybe only because I have no idea how it would look like? What would my daily routines be like? Would there be a new significant other and what would he be like? Where would I live? I can’t begin to imagine it. And I always preferred safety and familiarity, the good things I know instead of new experiences.

I must just start with making today an okay day.

As for the marriage counseling, it does seem to be all about him. Which is not surprising given as it seems we don’t have a marital problem (except of course him not wanting to be in a R with me  ) I feel that I want to hear what he is thinking and how he is doing. I have for half of my life been his confidante. But I must learn to let go of that as well. At least he is paying for the sessions … so it is only a waste of time for me.

[KayDee]

Dear Arctic, I remember the place you are in now. I remember having a huge H-sized hole in my life. I could not quite imagine another way of being. I remember thinking 'where will all that love go?' One of the most significant 'clicks' for me was really understanding that the marriage was a separate issue to the crisis. The marriage, for what it was after he'd taken a sledge hammer to it, would come second in any recovery process. You mention 5% of restored marriages - not sure where that comes from, but it does sound like a figure based on certain constants and conditions, like a maths exam or something  In fact, it is the opposite, and it has many, many moving parts. This is not a situation where two people are working together toward an agreed goal of an A*.

Like it or not, you are both on different paths. For now. And you will change. And how you feel will change. And, personally, I think that is OK. To let that happen to you too. See what the universe throws you and be open to that.

Regarding putting the spouse on a pedestal. I did not do this with my xH - I am in the ex-fixer club. And in many ways, I think he put me on a pedestal. I notice a lot on this forum that BD happens when our attention on our spouses was redirected (sick child, stressful work situation, illness etc). By thinking that idealising your H sent him into crisis you are over playing your hand - no one person can make another go into crisis of this magnitude. The type of person that goes into this type of crisis doesn't have good coping skills, they are not emotionally resilient - they are like a bridge with a hairline crack, which has looked strong and functional for years, and then suddenly the weight of traffic becomes too much and it collapses (insert better metaphors here ).

Keep going - one step at a time. You've come so far already, even if you don't feel like it.

[Treasur]

I agree so much with what KayDee said here about allowing yourself to adapt and evolve, and slowly accepting that you don’t know what your perspective will be in the future. That sounds easy but I found it actually quite hard initially - many of us are accustomed to thinking we have a plan and that we have more control over how life goes than sometimes we do.

I suspect you may be hanging quite a lot of your hat in this MC date, particularly bc it sounds as if he scheduled and paid for it? That’s understandable but I would also try to be equally open-minded about that tbh. Why? Well, these folks seem to do one thing one week and the opposite the next week….he may not show up and if he does he may have no clear purpose for the MC or he may use it to vent or justify his actions. Or even use it as a bit of a centralised ‘sadz party’ where everyone is supposed to prioritise his current state. Have you asked, or has he stated, what HIS objective for MC is? And do you know what yours is? Bc that’s where any decent MC will start…so it’s worth taking time to think about your PoV imho. And it’s ok to say No beforehand or to put a condition on it or to leave the session if it seems that it is not going to meet your objectives or doesn’t feel like a safe and equal space. It is Ok to say No, Not Now or Not Like This.

Bc this isn’t just about him, my friend, this is also about you and your kids and your life. And you’re allowed a voice and a vote on that.

In a more positive slant, my xh did much the same - put a huge amount of effort into selecting and scheduling an MC. And of course that raised my hopes of fixing whatever was going on, that’s normal. And then he just didn’t show up and ignored all messages from me for several weeks after that…but the MC was a great individual therapist too and proved immensely helpful to me individually, so silver lining! I recall it was the first time I felt heard by someone who got it and that was life-saving at the time.

[forthetrees]

Regarding crying you may find this interesting: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-microscopic-structures-of-dried-human-tears-180947766/

Emotional tears include a natural painkiller so your body knows what it needs.

As for marriage counseling, my ex paid for it and lied straight faced to the counselor. It was yet another layer of betrayal that I had to process. So I would say go to MC with the aim of observing not one of resolution. If you can somehow put yourself at an emotional distance to some degree, you may learn more about what the hell is going on in his sphere.

Joy does await you now and in the future, it´s an innate part of being human.

[Arcticfox]

Hi KayDee, Treasur and forthetrees!

Thank you for the link to the article forthetrees, not only was it interesting and beautiful, it also have me something else to think for a while! 

KayDee, I’ll have to think about marriage being separate from the crisis. Hadn’t really considered that angle.

The 5% come from a post near the beginning of my journal, read a nasty reddit discussion where same figure was mentioned, and also I have been looking at the pages here on this Forum and very roughly it seems like there is 20 threads on a page of which about one is pink or purple. Very unscientific way of looking at it I am sure  (and of course many members have more than one thread) I was not in a good place as I wrote that part and feeling that the chances of reconciliation are so dim and yet that is the only outcome I desire… of course everything depends on the individuals and their situations, it is not possible to give any separated couple a prognosis in percents.

Thank you for reminding that I did not cause this crisis. The mind strives to find an explanation. But the hairline crack one makes more sense, and lacking coping skills of my H have been mentioned before - locking away all unpleasant feelings, sports and alcohol, but also just pressing on and on with gritted teeth and having a high stress tolerance. But everybody has a breaking point. The good thing is that H has been consistent in saying that I did not cause the crisis, I understand that many MLCers blame the spouse. So that’s a (admittedly thin) silver lining. He has also told me to not change anything in myself, but it is too late. Like it or not I am already changing in many ways and as for me I feel the end result will necessarily be something stronger, wiser and more pleasant to be around than I used to be. As for him, some change in him brought this crisis about or vice versa, but I always thought people develop in a better direction, grow and learn as it were, but his change is more like he’s going backwards toward teenage selfishness, while learning to lie and developing a tougher shell to better be able to tolerate hurting and harming other people. It’s like a Windows update after which many things don’t work like they’re supposed to and you liked the old version better anyways 

Treasur, you’re correct I am fixated on the MC session H reserved and will pay, just to have a date when something will happen. I HATE open-ended insecurity. My goals at the moment are hearing where he is in his processing (if there is a consistent thought or direction instead of the ever changing ones as he himself said his thoughts and wants are) and to have a chance to say something meaningful to him (I actually try to keep contact near to the minimum, especially R related stuff, to respect his need for time and space). Only i am not sure what to tell him. I don’t want to be too angry and drive him away, I don’t want to dwell on the past… but also not pursue. Maybe I will tell him that I have loved him as he is, now he is thinking so much of his clothes and looks, so what if someone falls for him because he looks good on the outside. Is it more valuable and important to him than what we had? I consider myself a real and honest Person and I thought he was one as well.

His goals, I am sure he has no idea. Maybe he is coming and paying just to assuage his guilt? I think if H doesn’t show up I will probably file for divorce (unless there is a VERY good explanation like a train wreck). No sense in telling him that though, can’t make a horse drink etc. If he doesn’t show up I will cry to the therapist and also get a valuable piece of information on H (that he is not interested enough in MC to show up). H will pay the bill anyways.

The control issue is a big one for me. I have FOO issues. Mom was/is apparently an undiagnosed covert narcissist. Dad was always either at work or hiding behind a newspaper. When I was 10 mom got diagnosed with cancer, dad escaped to work and nobody told us kids anything, but we knew mom could die and she was in the hospital for long stretches of time (so it felt at least). My little sister started calling me mother!  And I took the responsibility very seriously even if it felt like too much to bear.

Mom recovered (miraculously as I was told later) and is almost 80 and still going strong! But I have battled insecurity and anxiety the rest of my life. H has been the first and only safe adult in my life and the R with him has allowed me lots of personal growth which is why this betrayal is a double whammy. I have partially learned to come to terms with God laughing as people plan their lives, but H’s MLC and him telling he doesn’t love me any more is definitely something I could not at all see coming.

Many MLCers seem to have FOO issues but H actually doesn’t? He told me he thinks he has had a TOO SAFE childhood which is why he takes a risk like this?! Only, his biological father did the same trick to my MIL as H was newborn. He dumped MIL with almost exactly the same words (that he doesn’t love MIL anymore, is in love with another woman and she is not interested but he wants a D because then the is at least a small chance he gets the OW). They were about 25 so not MLC but H’s biological father has a lot of FOO issues. Anyways, as he has never actually been in H’s life, i think maybe this thing is genetic  (H has always been angry at his biological father and has judged him harshly so maybe that counts as FOO issue. Funny he can do the same $hit himself…)

This is probably too long already so I will quit rambling now.

[xyzcf]

I admit it is a bit silly to hope that showing how competent and active I am will change his view on me.

His crisis is not about you and not about your marriage. Doesn't matter how competent we were/are....he most likely would have had a crisis regardless of who he had married.

I would certainly like to be in the 5% whose spouse returns to them.

Unfortunately, there are no reliable statistics to say how many spouses return. On this forum, many come for a while and then leave so we have no idea what happened in their lives down the road. Years later, there may be reconciliations, but the LBSer has long since left this site.

Even with the best research, it's hard to really define who is having a MLC..there is no diagnostic criteria. Information gathered would all be anecdotal.

Many LBSer's are not willing to spend years of their lives in "limbo" and they find another relationship.

Many LBSer's do not want the MLCer back...they have caused too much pain.

Each case is very much an individual situation. I did find I wanted to read the return stories and believe so much that we would be one of those. Many told me that they thought in my case it was likely he would return, I could never believe that he would never come back home.....

You are very very early on into this journey. Of course you miss him and the life you once had. Totally normal.

I must just start with making today an okay day.

Sometimes, it is minute by minute, breath by breath and it is very hard work to get to a place of calm and peace...and it takes a long time.

Listen to what you know internally, listen to what your body needs...start to dream about the things that you wish to do and enter into new activities meeting new people and finding out who you are without him.

Doing these things does not mean that he will not come back..but we often advise "to live as though he is never coming back" if that makes sense.

As for the FOO issues....I find that Erik Erickson's life stages are helpful...within each stage there are developmental stages that need to be successfully met, or you go into the next stage without having resolved certain things and later in life, may need to resolve those things.

It may not necessarily be a FOO issue, perhaps the MLCer was sexually abused as a child, perhaps they had some serious illness, maybe they were bullied...there are so many things from childhood that could have an impact as well as biological changes, fear of dying and perhaps the most imprtant is "the mother of all depressions" as they search for something, anything that will fill the emptiness and the void within.

We can do nothing to fix this...for we were not the cause.

Time will allow you to incorporate what the vets here are saying, each of us coming from our own experiences so take what is "advised" not as gosepl truth, but as one way that one poster lived through this.

I am so sorry you are going through this...I do believe that when our lives get blown up, it really is a trauma and finding a therapist that specialized in PTSD and trauma was the most helpful in my case.

[Arcticfox]

Hi xyzcf (hope I got that right  )!

Live as if he is never coming back makes perfect sense to me! I’ll have to think what it means for me as I was already very happy with my life. But probably I will need to add something to fill the H shaped hole in the middle of my life right now. A new relationship/dating does not feel like a good idea at the moment, as I am too heartbroken for anything good to come out of it.

A friend told me earlier on to not worry, that I  will find someone better. I answered that that is what I’m afraid of. Well the thought does not scare me any more.

I’m not sure where to place H’s developmental problem on Ericson’s stages. But somewhere in the teen years or young adulthood definitely. He has spoken a lot after BD about him being so shy around girls and women, and not getting to have much experiences. Also he has said that his appearance has bothered him for all of his life! He mentioned this maybe one or twice as we were dating. But never since. And IMHO he is striking. (I wish he truly was butt ugly so nobody would want him but me  )  But that is his own experience. Those things seem kind of trivial in my mind, not worth blowing up your family, but to him they apparently aren’t trivial. Also he definitely has great fear of both death and old age with the ailments it brings.

So the shyness and perceived ugliness could be the hairline cracks and aging (cholesterol meds and some joint pains) are the proverbial load that broke the bridge. Nothing drastic like the death of a relative. S17 turning seventeen has left H bewildered though, he has multiple times wondered where did the time go…?

[Treasur]

Another website calls it ‘untangling the skein of f**kedupness’ and tbh it’s a relentless challenge to try to get inside someone else’s head. We all do it for a while - humans are designed to try to read patterns and trauma tends to make us double down on that, it’s normal. It’s part of what usually brings us here, isn’t it? That effort to understand things that make no sense to us at all.

But it’s rarely very useful imho 😝
So we all do it for a while until we gradually stop doing it so much and turn our eye towards ourselves and things we can do something about.

I don’t know if you have had therapy on the past as part of managing your anxiety but, jmo, you may find it more constructive to focus on the messages in your head from your own FOO than to worry about his. It’s so normal and reasonable that as small humans in challenging circumstances we learn how to operate and then carry those principles forward in our lives bc they probably worked well back then. It’s tough then to realise as an adult and as life evolves that they may not be serving us quite so well now. And it’s hard work to rewire ourselves without a bit of support from a good therapist or coach. And tbh if you already wrestle with anxiety and then someone upends ypur life, it seems reasonable to me that you might need to refresh your toolbox! So, my friend, I’d encourage you to consider finding a good IC who understands trauma and anxiety…if only bc you can exercise more control over your head than you can over someone else’s lol

And no need to feel worry about being judged here - plenty of us struggled hard with anxiety and/or depression post BD, some of us were even diagnosed with PTSD, even if we had not experienced these things before. We know what it’s like and we know how overwhelming it can feel to be in your shoes. The good news is that most of us also know what a difference it can make to really really look after yourself perhaps in ways you have not before and lay down the burden of our ‘magic mind reading hat’ and looking after others as a priority in these circumstances.