[Dontgiveup]

I also agree that Standing is about commitment and vows.....even potentially post divorce.  From most of what I read, MLC is akin to an illness....an emotional disorder.  The majority of MLC's do come to an end if you believe much of the information that's out there.  Jim Conway's statistics are 2-5 years in women, and 3-10 years in men.  This may mean that you get divorced before the MLC has taken it's course (if it does take it's course).

Standing is a big piece of what brought me to this forum.  Standing means that I am going to hope that God will provide me the strength to see if my ex-wife's "condition" will change.  Much of what we read says that it probably will....but it's going to require two areas that are tough to enter....forgiveness and patience......which are two areas that I believe are hard to do with our own strength.

[Mermaid]

The social structures you cite (polygamy, fathers not active in raising the children) have largely been abandoned in modern human culture.  These constructs may have been deemed to be valid at the time, but now we know better.  The nuclear family just works better.  We, as a species, have tried all kinds of social structures, from Communism to Capitalism, Democracy to Dictatorship, to increase our chances of SURVIVAL.  I have to admit that I'm little surprised that I'm debating the merits of a nuclear family on midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com! 

Actually, no.  :)The social structures I cite are still in existence. Modern western culture and the nuclear family arose as the result of economic reorganisation during industrialisation. Extended families weren't abandoned because they didn't work so well, economic life makes it less  possible. In southern Europe, extended families are a source of greater stability and social support networks, even in the case of divorce. Divorce is more destabilising where these extended networks do not exist. We don't know better now, we know different. And we have passed the modern period where one idea is supposed to be better than the others, and moved into a post-industrial period of greater heterogeneity.
I believe in marriage, I believe in my marriage, but just because I do, I don't believe this is the only way to live. I am not a fundamentalist. If I were married to a violent man, I would not want to stay married.
There are obviously several  reasons for standing; Vows, beliefs, hopes, desires, avoiding pain, abut we agree that avoiding change is counterproductive.

[Rollercoasterider]

Awesome thread! I wish Braveheart were here!

I am scanning back and have been scanning threads, but am focusing on reading and making notes on those posters who have requested coaching...so you probably won't hear much from me. I received more requests during my vacation than when I'm here!

[OldPilot]

Awesome thread! I wish Braveheart were here!

I I received more requests during my vacation than when I'm here!

I guess thats why you started this forum!

[pexio]

...While I agree with your basic sentiment here, I do disagree with a few statements. For me, standing has everything to do with my vows. And while everyone has their "uncle" point of pain tolerance, I have to say that the emotional pain I've endured would be enough for me to quit if I did not have my vows to back up my position. Personally, I try to never make a promise that I do not keep, and I said vows to stay with my husband forever. Until death. Therefore, I must stay with him until he either returns (which he will) or he finalizes it.

I understand your POV completely.  But, it's still all about pain.  You are clearly committed to your marriage and the vows you made to your spouse (and God) all those many years ago.  I suspect that, due to your upbringing, abandoning that commitment and breaking your promise would cause your a lot of pain.  In fact, it would cause you much more pain to throw in the towel than to endure what your MLC spouse is inflicting.  Wouldn't you admit that you would feel really, really bad about breaking your vows?  So you stand because it is the least painful thing for you to do.

Choices aren't made in a vacuum.  All choices, even the tiniest, are made to serve ourselves FIRST and FOREMOST.  We would not last long as a species if we didn't choose in our own self-interest all the time.  Did you ever toss a few coins into a panhandler's cup?  Why?  To help out someone in need?  Well, that's the secondary reason.  The primary reason was because, due to your upbringing, you "felt bad" for this person and you didn't want to "feel bad".  To alleviate this pain, you gave.  You quite literally, paid for pain relief.  And didn't you "feel good" as you walked away ('tis better to give than to receive)?  We always choose, as Mark Twain said, to "content our spirit" first.  The only difference between a "good"choice and a "bad" one (from a societal perspective) is that the "good" choice benefits us AND OTHERS at the same time.  All people are selfish all the time.

M&H, you're right.  Everyone DOES have their "uncle" point.  That point is reached when the pain of the current course of action is perceived to be greater than the pain of a different course (the scale with pain stacked on both sides reaches the tipping point).  It's why the MLCer chose to abandon the marriage in the first place.  Their perception of the cause of the pain and the path to alleviate it are flawed because they are ill.  But it is the pain they feel nonetheless.  They will do what they have to do to alleviate the pain, and so will we.

 

[OldPilot]

Pexio

That was really good.
I am currently reading a book called "The pain behind the Mask" "Overcoming Masculine Depression".
This book confirms what you are writing and generally explains why men behave the way they do.
Men in MLC have choosen to try to stop their pain by running rather than looking to confront the pain.
Your explanation of  the behavior of the LBS is very inciteful.

Thanks for that.

[Mermaid]

So you stand because it is the least painful thing for you to do.

I agree with this, it gives us hope, but I question whether we always should. We have to question ourselves about whether standing is right for us, why we want to be married, what is good about our relationship.

Despite the pain, despite our vows, there are times to let go. In some cases the partner has always been abusive, but even their LBS don't want to stop

[MarkedandHealed]

Ah, very clever. Yes, I will concede that it is painful to think of lowering what I consider my moral limit in order to accommodate what I consider an immoral act, that of leaving a marriage. Very well stated. Four stars. 

[HeartsBlessing]

Interesting thread.

I can see what Pexio is saying; as I'm at a place far removed from the crisis...once you detach, GAL..it becomes a way of life...and is useful when facing OTHER trials this life has to offer, even AFTER the crisis is finished and behind you both.

You, too, will see these things as you come forward yourselves.

Life, post-crisis, becomes one big problem to solve on a daily basis, and you learn the tools of a lifetime....again, these will be useful in other problems the marriage, or your life, in general, may come up against.
The changes you undergo are PERMANENT, not temporary; a growing up that all needs to do within the MLC of the spouse.

Believe me, I have been there, myself.  You find as things begin to change for the better, you're NOT really needed; as your spouse needs to learn to care for themselves..they become your  companion, someone you are married to, and you find that you need because you love; not the other way around.  Yet, you'll find you're not "joined at the hip"; and NO ONE is controlling the other; each person is allowed room to grow without it being a "threat" to the other.

Your vows take on a different, truer, deeper meaning once you've survived the crisis together..and a "scar" is laid upon the marriage bond; a mark of healing for you both.  Your love deepens to yet another stage, but not the final one; it will be years before that final stage of love is reached.

Being married is not a means to an end; but you stand because you CHOOSE to stand; even after ALL you endure.  Committment holds you even when the love is gone for a time; and it happens to ALL couples.
I've been there, too, right along with my husband.

My situation in his MLC, was quite different ,within the early days of this, in regards to the adultery my husband committed:

I, for one NEARLY left my marriage a few weeks AFTER OW Discovery..and was determined at the time that I would.  I figured I was a intelligent woman; could make it in the world...but was unsure what I was going to do; yet I'd made a decision I knew I was going to have to live with for the rest of my life.  This was a life changing decision; a definite "no-no" in MLC.

I said NOTHING to anyone; but GOD knew..yet, I hadn't talked to Him about it..well, we KNOW He knows EVERYTHING.

That same night, I had someone come to me, and after telling me things that only I knew, in time, she, having allowed the Lord to use her, convinced me to turn around.
Yes, it took TIME for her to convince me to change my mind...stubborn doesn't have a "one-up" on me, when I make my mind up about something...but I'm thankful that He looked past my stubbornness, and kept her after me...even to the point I got VERY angry.

But, I turned, and am glad I did.

I had SUPERNATURAL intervention; Ladies, and Gents; that turned me around, and into a Stander.  The "door" to me leaving was open at that time, because my husband had committed adultery...and I was TWO steps away from taking that option.

I didn't break my vows, MY HUSBAND DID.

If that lady hadn't done an intervention with me; I would have left him high and dry, and that's a fact.

I had had ALL I could stand at that time; or thought I'd had.

I didn't care at the time about his pain; I didn't quite understand his pain...all I knew was that I had been cheated on...although I wouldn't have seeked revenge against him, I was destroyed emotionally from what I had found out.  And the PAIN I was going through, was something for the record books.

THAT was my "uncle" point in this pain.

I'd known God wouldn't have held it against me; as I wasn't the one who'd committed adultery.  But, I knew I'd be bound to live the rest of my life alone...that was as far as I'd gotten.
If I had left him, I wouldn't be here now, that's for sure.  I suppose I would have learned what I was supposed to learn; in time..but who knows?

I take a HARD stance on adultery; MLC or not.  I've NEVER done it, and God willing, will NEVER do it, and though I counsel people who have spouses that are in the process of committing adultery, I, myself, am total DEATH on the subject.

It's IMMORAL, and the wages of sin are death...as in EMOTIONAL DEATH; I saw my husband go through this while in OW Withdrawal; as well as suffering consequences of his actions, that God made sure he suffered.

He'd not only sinned against me, but even worse, he'd sinned against GOD.

It is WRONG; cuts the spouse that has been wronged DOWN, destroys families, and the devil gets a big kick out of it.

The Bible says it's WRONG; regardless of the circumstances that brings it about.

Innocence is destroyed on BOTH sides, and you can't get that back, no amount of "making up" will ever "fix" someone who's had another and damaged themselves in this way.

I had a rough time working through the whole ordeal; working my way toward acceptance, forgiveness and healing...and I STILL thought of leaving from time to time.  The adultery was my milestone; once I was past that, the other stuff; such as emotional abuse I suffered while within his crisis was easy to forgive.

Yet, as a servant of God, I STILL have the duty to remind people that adultery is WRONG, hands down.  I was ALSO reminded of it even as the Lord explained what had brought it all on; a temptation that led to my husband's downfall..yet, He STILL reminded me that there was still NO EXCUSE for what he did.  And he paid a pretty heavy price for this; even though the Lord forgave him....I STILL observed him reaping hard the corruption he'd sown; just as God's Word says a person will do when they commit adultery/sin.

The MLC'er is well-aware of what he/she is doing, and the guilt and stabs of conscience are terrible.  Say what you will, but they KNOW what they are doing when they fall into this temptation.

There comes a time when they will and must face what it was within them that led them this direction, and they must fix it within themselves, regardless of whether they tell the LBS what they did or not.

If they do NOT deal with the "void" that was within them..it's a setup for yet another bout of crisis down the road.

Thank you all for listening...this is what I learned while within the his crisis.

I will step down off the soapbox now. 

I never understood exactly why God intervened with me, but He did..and I learned, in time, not to question His Will.  His Promises to me then for the restoration of my marriage, came to pass in time, and although life is what it is, I'm actually GLAD now that He took the time to bring someone forward in my direction for this intervention.

He walked me forward one step at a time, one day at a time toward the outcome that He'd graciously shown me in the beginning...something He did NOT have to do for me; yet He did.
As I saw things start to come to pass, I understood that He was there for me; with me, and He was taking care of me...and He was instrumental in helping me to change the person I'd been into the person I became, and am STILL becoming; even today.

I STILL had to walk the walk, talk to talk, learn the lessons, make the decisions as they came about..and He never left me; not even for a minute throughout.

I heard the "radio silence" from Him several times, and knew what it meant...I had a decision to make; but I always knew the alternate paths that went with either decision I made.

I learned to trust Him with EVERYTHING in my life; and even when times seemed hard; I still followed Him; and still follow Him even today and always.

I NEVER blow smoke when I say "let go and let God"; He knows the hearts of all people, and knows our needs; and meets us at the point of our greatest need.  He loves us when we don't love ourselves...and we love Him because He loved us first.

Take care of yourselves.

[OldPilot]

Bumping this thread up for DGU