[MarkedandHealed]

RCR mentioned that this would be a good topic and I agree. So, here’s my introductory post. I’m a researcher by nature so I’ll continue to try to pull up research and information regarding standing and MLC.

Many times people have something in mind when they think of a topic and others take it and run with it and the outcome is different. I believe ideas are living, breathing things and ideology is individual to each of us, no matter how many synchronicities there are between our situations and lives. I hope we can explore many aspects of this subject and all come to a good, healthy understanding of what Standing is and should not be.

The benefits and detriments to standing.

Benefits and positives
Keeping a family together
-the legacy of divorce, which affects generations to come
Maintaining your own self esteem about keeping your promises
Faithfulness to your religious beliefs
Being true to your future self, not making rash decisions
-Stats say 80% of all divorced people regret it at some level
Healing for yourself
-getting pushed into and then taking time to grow, learn, develop
-issues you may not have embraced without this crisis
Staying in a better financial lifestyle
-According to one study, women’s income decreases approx 27% with D while a man’s increases 10%


Detriments
When you get stuck and don’t face reality
Cake eating
Door mat
Self esteem
Depression
 
In researching for this, I found a great website www.theartofloveandintimacy.com/2007/03/top-ten-myths-on-divorce-research.html
Lots of articles and statistics, and questionnaires on marriage, divorce, and your attitudes towards it. Please don’t have your MLCer take these tests, though, as we all know they are not in their right frame of mind and their answers will be, shall we say, less than satisfactory.

[Mermaid]

M&H, I've just read this, and it's useful to reflect on this! I suppose we all wonder sometimes why we stand when we deserve better (thus our self esteem is at risk).

The link has some basic information, and is worth reading.

[pexio]

...I hope we can explore many aspects of this subject and all come to a good, healthy understanding of what Standing is and should not be...

In my view, most everyone stands for marriage - certainly all of us LBS who have sought out MLC forums like this one.  Marriage and family are the microcosm of society.  As goes marriage - so goes society.  I agree wholeheartedly with the benefits of standing and the veracity of the divorce myths cited at the link.

In a practical sense, standing has less to do with one's commitment to the institution of marriage or a commitment to keeping one's vows.  It has all to do with pain avoidance and insulation.  The only thing that makes a stander into a non-stander is that the pain inflicted in their sitches has reached a point where the LBS says "Enough!" (when the pain inflicted reaches the LBS' tolerance level).

We can bolster ourselves with our faith and our commitment to our marriages and families, but on a day-to-day even minute-to-minute basis, we must always CONDITION  ourselves to distance ourselves from painful situations.  'Detaching and Getting A Life' is not only the Conventional Wisdom, it is the Universal Truth.

[Mermaid]

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure that I quite agree, pexio. There are many types of societies, many types of families, and many types of marriage. In fact, our current romantic view of marriage is quite recent, as is the nuclear family. It is important for stability, as our extended clan membership has broken down and the parents are the most important frame of reference that new members may have. Indeed, research shows that extended social networks may alleviate the detrimental effects of divorce.

I also do not think that standing is to do with bearing pain until you can't. There is a great deal of pain in separation/ divorce. There is pain in standing. There are consequences of either. I am standing because I love my H, I believe that we can still have a future together, and I believe he needs my support, although in a different way to before. Sometimes the pain seems more than we can bear. THis is why some LBS go NC.

'Detaching and Getting A Life' is useful, but there are no Universal Truths, only truths relative to our situations, cultures and beliefs. It is important that we have a self and that we our responsible for our own happiness, but sometimes our actions have to be less selfish in order to have a satisfactory outcome. I say this because I recognise that if marriage has led to a feeling of pain (I don't say it is the cause), then one thing a LBS can do is to create positive experiences with the MLCer when he/ she comes back into contact. In fact, I'd say this is an essential companent of reconnecting.

I hesistated to reply to you, because I don't like to contradict people's faith and culture, which are important to each of us, but I think it is helpful to understand that there is not ONE way to deal with MLC or one reason.

[pexio]

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure that I quite agree, pexio. There are many types of societies, many types of families, and many types of marriage. In fact, our current romantic view of marriage is quite recent, as is the nuclear family. It is important for stability, as our extended clan membership has broken down and the parents are the most important frame of reference that new members may have. Indeed, research shows that extended social networks may alleviate the detrimental effects of divorce.

While the "romantic" view of marriage may be relatively new (likely influenced by too many romance novels and 'date night' movies), the concept of a nuclear family is as old as man.  Long ago, we as a species learned that parents who loved and cared for each other and  together raised their children in a loving environment, acting as positive role models for personal interaction, increased their and their children's chances of SURVIVAL.  That's precisely why marriage is the institution that it is.  I certainly don't dispute the importance of clan or extended family-type relationships.  But they are supplemental to the nuclear family.  There are very few, in any, statistics that show a positive outcome from divorce, unless it was to alleviate an abusive situation.

Sometimes the pain seems more than we can bear. THis is why some LBS go NC.

This is exactly what I was trying to say.  There IS pain in standing AND in separation/divorce.   It's like two sides of a scale with pain being stacked on both sides - should I stay?, should i go?.  When the scales tips too far in the favor of separation/divorce, the stander becomes a non-stander.  I assert that if one wants to remain a stander, then one must work to keep the pain from stacking up against standing.  Which is why NC is so helpful.

'Detaching and Getting A Life' are universal because they are powerful tools - armor if you will - against the pain inflicted by the MLCer.  It's just my shorthand way of noting what another poster recently said, "We need to live our lives as if our MLCer was never coming back."  Oh wait, that was YOU!  ;-)  I'm not really sure what you're disagreeing with...

[OldPilot]

Mermaid

Don't let Pexio's "newbie" status fool you. He has been at this a long time and is very wise.
I respect anything he says.

Welcome Pexio to our forum!

[MarkedandHealed]

I've been offline for a few days and see this topic picked up. Glad to see it.

I'll read later, my lunch is over, but I skimmed and I think you both have a very good debate going here.

[Mermaid]

OP, I hadn't noticed Pexio's newbie status.  It wouldn't make a difference. A debate is a debate! (I could debate that syllogism, but I won't).

Nuclear families were prevalent from the industrial revolution in Western society. In some cultures, groups of women take care of the children, and boys leave the group when they are initiated as men. In others, men have several wives. Women have had periods of economic power, of dependence, periods when they were gatherers, responsible for giving birth/ raising children. In some cultures, men are not expected to be providers, or faithful, or to have a role in childcare. In others, they do. The most continuous aspects about humans are their plasticity, openess to the culture of which they are a part, their communication and the importance of being connected to others. There's nothing natural about a nuclear family.

There are no universal truths. We have useful tools and perspectives. We have beliefs. But nothing is universal. Not even "I think therefore I exist". (I speak as  a social realist, so I suppose there is some external measurability to existence). The point in this thread is that these are useful tools that we use according to our judgement and insight.

Sorry for being pedantic! This was too much fun to pass by.

[pexio]

Mermaid,
The social structures you cite (polygamy, fathers not active in raising the children) have largely been abandoned in modern human culture.  These constructs may have been deemed to be valid at the time, but now we know better.  The nuclear family just works better.  We, as a species, have tried all kinds of social structures, from Communism to Capitalism, Democracy to Dictatorship, to increase our chances of SURVIVAL.  Those constructs that work, based on past and current knowledge, we keep.  Those that don't, based on new knowledge, we discard.  I, for one, am glad that I didn't have to go to work in the mills of my hometown at age 10 like my grandparents did.  Child labor was a social construct that was tried and thankfully tossed aside.

There may not be universal truths, but that doesn't stop us from trying to seek them out none the less.  We, as humans, are supreme in our pattern-matching and analysis traits to discern What is, or more importantly from a societal perspective - What Works.  We are flawed and our knowledge has been and continues to be incomplete.  Our perception of truth and reality changes over time.  At one time not too long ago, the world was flat, women were chattel, and slavery was OK.  This was true and real because these views were fairly universally held.  These views have largely been abandoned as our knowledge, while not perfect, inches us closer to the mark.

To tie this back to our MLC situations (as I will always strive to do), there are widely accepted "tools and perspectives" that are true and real because the consensus of opinion on their validity (or lack thereof) is fairly universal.  Detaching (to distance oneself from pain) and GAL (to focus on what one solely has control of) are universal precepts that are firmly held on every MLC forum.

I have to admit that I'm little surprised that I'm debating the merits of a nuclear family on midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com!   

Thanks OP for the kind welcome brother.

[MarkedandHealed]

Here is a link to Psychology Today basic primer on divorce. They have many articles here from the effects of divorce on children, to rekindling the love. Good reading.
 http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/divorce

In a practical sense, standing has less to do with one's commitment to the institution of marriage or a commitment to keeping one's vows.  It has all to do with pain avoidance and insulation.  The only thing that makes a stander into a non-stander is that the pain inflicted in their sitches has reached a point where the LBS says "Enough!" (when the pain inflicted reaches the LBS' tolerance level).

While I agree with your basic sentiment here, I do disagree with a few statements. For me, standing has everything to do with my vows. And while everyone has their "uncle" point of pain tolerance, I have to say that the emotional pain I've endured would be enough for me to quit if I did not have my vows to back up my position. Personally, I try to never make a promise that I do not keep, and I said vows to stay with my husband forever. Until death. Therefore, I must stay with him until he either returns (which he will) or he finalizes it.

And, as Mermaid put it, I believe my H needs me. I feel it, I see it in little ways. He can not stand the thought of losing me, he is lost and alone and confused. One day, my strength will be part of what helps him come through and feel forgiven. Can he be a whole person without me? Of course, but right now he is a broken and hurt person and he needs me around.

I totally agree with the minimization of pain, although I'm not certain yet that it's entirely possible. I'm just beginning no contact myself, which is hard as my H still lives at home. I officially, in my mind, began yesterday but today he came to the kitchen while I was cooking dinner and asked me a question. Should I leave while he's speaking to me and be rude, or answer him? I chose to answer. Now the limit starts again.

I personally had a lot of pain this past weekend as I was home alone most of the weekend. My GAL includes trying to find friends, which is very, very hard when you're an adult with no children. H was out watching the fireworks, one of my favorite things, with OW. I was very depressed, and I don't get depressed. It took me two days to figure out why. It didn't even dawn on me that it was a holiday.

Today I am back to feeling happy. Not my usual bouncy, sunshiny self, but happy. Mellow, content. I'm sitting at a Borders waiting for my book writing club to come along and reading on here. Having a pretty good time.

Had I quit yesterday when I was so down, what would have happened? What about if I walked in on H having sex with OW? That would be sure to put me in a funk for a LONG time. What if I quit then, and didn't wait it out for the healing to take place before making my decision to stand or not from a place of power, peace and strength?

I think one of the benefits to standing is that you learn to experience and handle a wide range of emotions and strength of emotions. To be sure, in my previous marriage (meaning the one H is attempting to destroy) my feelings were not at the surface. We had enough problems that I was shoving those feelings down often enough that they were dulled to say the least. One of the gifts H has given me now is that I am able to learn to feel my emotions more deeply than I have in years. And that will make me that much more of a rich, vibrant person when he is through this.