[honour]

I don't know if I am being clear here, but this is how I see the difference -

Yes you are being clear. A very helpful post.

honour

[Thundarr]

I find this thread extremely interesting as I'm sure many others do as well.  I often wonder whether my W is MLC or WAS and sometimes struggle with the differences between the two.  I've had many say that my W is textbook MLC due to the fact that she abandoned the kids, had the dramatice weight loss, made the impulsive spending decisions (new car, clothes etc), moved three times in 4 months and slept in the same bed with me for weeks after BD and even ML afterward.  That would SEEM to make everything obvious, but it's the times when I speak to her that she seems so lucid that throws me off.  Now, she hasn't done anything legally with the D since filing and even seems to have forgotten the Separation Agreement she had drawn up several months ago and had her lawyer mail me to sign (funny thing is that it's the original, so if I don't sign it or "lose it" she will have to go through the trouble again).  Does this indicate confusion or just that my W is a procrastinator?  Does this indicate that she may be a WAS who may just decide to give the M another chance with  the holidays coming on?  I hope so, but since everyone close to her has noticed the change in personality and teenagery behavior I'm not getting my hopes up.

Do WAS change their personalities, start hanging with new friends, abandon their kids and take on all-new habits? 

[summer progress]

"Do WAS change their personalities, start hanging with new friends, abandon their kids and take on all-new habits?"

Good question.

My H said he needs to get male friends. He has gone for so long isolating himself. I wonder if it is a part of finding themself. For a guy, it could be part of dealing with the whole "masculine" thing. I do not think my H feels like he is abandoning the family since we only have S19 home and he is in college. I think H just thinks that he has abandoned me. He does feel bad about it, but feels it is something he has to do. He lets me see his depression and confusion, but does not show this to anyone else that I am aware of. He has a different mask for work. Your W does seem to be in a true identity crisis right now. That is part of MLC and she is at midlife. Has she talked about depression?

Summer

[Thundarr]

Hey Summer,

She has never admitted to depression and states that she is very happy, even "the happiest she's ever been."  I don't believe her, though, and D10 has mentioned that she always looks really sad when she doesn't think anyone is watching her.  I remember looking through the window at her when she was in the living room by herself before she moved out and she often looked very down.  She always complains of being tired and has had several ailments (mostly stomach problems such as diarrhea) since BD as well, which are classic symptoms of depression.  So, she either is and won't admit it or she doesn't realize she is.  I sometimes chalk the depression up to stress (which I've heard her describe it as) about the changes in her life.

[honour]

Hey Summer,

She has never admitted to depression and states that she is very happy, even "the happiest she's ever been."

Fits a pattern: my W said she had discovered herself. Points perhaps to an initial sense of euphoria.

  She always complains of being tired and has had several ailments (mostly stomach problems such as diarrhea) since BD as well, which are classic symptoms of depression. 

Right after BD my W had a severe soar throat. So severe could barely talk i.e. answer questions. Psychosomatically convenient?

honour

[LisaLives]

I wonder all the time, is it this is it that, what if I had done that instead of this...  But at the end of the day, none of it really matters.  You can't change it.  Anything you try to do that is not in line with who you are is pretzeling for an uncertain outcome.  Our spouses left, or want to leave, or are not fully present in the M, that is all we know.  We may never know the real reason why because they may never know the reason why.  Whether they are MLC or WAS, they are still in some kind of crisis or revealing a personality flaw that became too hard to hide. 

So the only thing we can do is figure out how to live our lives, separate and apart from them and the weird issues they have chosen not to share with us.  Whether he ever loved or trusted me, he got to a point where he just didn't--so much so that he could take his considerable pain and uncertainty away from me, and in my case to another person, knowing it would hurt me and our family. 

Whether I believe in MLC, or the process, being fixated on it makes me fixated on him and all I can fix at this point is me.  I know a man that once upon a time was a great husband and dad, who has been in replay for over 10 years and three wives.  I know his original LBS and his son who is now an adult still wonder what happened to their dad, but at this point all they can do is laugh and hope he doesn't hurt anyone else.  There is no crystal ball that can tell us the truth about our past or our future, so we just have to make the best life with what we know today. 

I appreciate this thread, but don't get stuck here, like I do so often,  There are no answers, just life and love and the gifts of every day and if you spend too much time looking for answers to the unknowable you just might miss the joy that is staring you right in the face.  As I went for my run this AM, I found myself getting angry thinking about him and how he got "here" until I forced myself to be in my present which is an amazing fall day, surrounded by fall leaves, deer, turkeys, very loud birds, not sure what was up with them today, and crazy busy squirrels and the dogs that love to chase them.  I could have missed all that, and so could you, so just don't!  Love and light, Lisa   

[kaffe diem]

LL:  I wanted to touch on your post first.

First, I understand the futility we all feel at times, and then the hope, and then the despair, and then...  the cycles of the LBS...

One thing which "the books" DO tell us is that whether MLC or WAS, the techniques of the LBS remain the same...

But I want to submit that IT DOES MATTER whether they are MLC or WAS, in respect to time.  Time is crucial...  Because if a betrayer is a WAS, they may have characteristics of MLC, such as certain PDs or depression, etc...  But their thoughts are otherwise fairly clear.  They have come to a conclusion that the M is not savable and they are intent on moving out, when they feel it is safe to, and often with at the very least, quasi rational plan and time frame.

In that regard, the positive actions of the LBS is imperative NOW.  The WAS is not in the so called MLC "fog" and so there will be no "awakening" and realization of the damage done.  They are aware of the damage and are to the best of their ability, probably trying to minimize the damage along the way.  And once everything is done, they won't be looking back, whether they left in anger or they left in what they feel is the best peace they feel they could muster.

Of course, no one can see the future, so there is no such thing as NEVER.  But there will be no real catalyst to change the mind of the WAS.  In the same way that anyone who has had an R late in their teen years or otherwise early in their lives and that R ended and a reconnection attempt is made 10, 15, maybe 20 years later...  and there simply remains "nothing there"...

This I know.  I have made three reconnects with exGFs...  prior to M...  just the usual "hey, haven't seen you in a long time" and then over time, reaquainting with them and then, mutually choosing to try to see if the "spark" was still there...  and it wasn't...  it just wasn't...  and I remained friends with these ladies, until I got M and to honour my W's insecurities, I severed comm with them...

So to restate, a WAS's mind is no different than any "normal" person.  They made a choice, regardless how we may feel about our vows and the intended longevity in which we intended to keep those vows.  If they choose to move on, it is a choice based on some combination of reasons, that any other sane person would choose, like the choice an LBS might finally face and make, of no longer standing...  Or the spouse who, while not directly or dangerously abused, can no longer live with nor tolerate the actions of an addict...

An MLCer who "awakens" may still feel firm in their decision, but they still may have to resolve (or will resolve unconsciously) whether their decision to move on really is a good decision, as the fog lifts and their heads clear...  and so I suspect may be more inclined to give the M a second look at that time...  So long as they don't remember the truly "bad" things the LBS may (or may not have) done...

KWIM?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh also, LL...  I hear you about the H who is in replay for 10 years...  I know someone similar...

One thing about PDs or depression, etc...  they may always be present, or they may occur by way of some trigger, a toxin introduced to the body, PTSD, a hormonal change...  and these PDs become chronic.  10 years in replay seems...  interesting...  I'm sure no one knows for sure how long replay can last and as RCR and others can attest, a frightened or resistant MLCer will run back into the tunnel, and potentially replay, if they get scared and chronically want to avoid their daemons...

One friend of mine was a great man, husband, dad...  very successful in his job...  and then...  he started acting odd, drinking lots, affair, many symptoms of MLC...  and then the onset of depression so severe it pretty much put him on the street, after his D, loss of job, and other losses...  and I believe it was truly about 15 years later, he is finally recovered.  Although his M is long over and likely neither he nor his X would ever consider R.  The cause...  was actually a head injury...  and it was finally found he had a bone fragment in his brain...  after recovery from the surgery, thankfully the damage was not severe, and he has pretty much made a full recovery...

Again, what might appear to be MLC, may not be...

[Thundarr]

So, Kaffe, would the fact that many of our spouses have not identified what we would term as "divorceable offenses" come into play based on your observations?  I don't think many sane people would leave a H and kids because the H liked Britney Spears.  Or becaue the H liked comic books or wrestling or didn't age well (all reasons my W has given).  I know I'm far from perfect, but not as bad as what she is making me out to be.  Does a WAS make mountains out of molehills or base decisions on sane concepts?

[honour]

I don't think many sane people would leave a H and kids because the H liked Britney Spears.

Now that would be funny on divorce petition. Cited unreasonable behaviour on grounds of liking Britney Spears.

honour

[kaffe diem]

So, Kaffe, would the fact that many of our spouses have not identified what we would term as "divorceable offenses" come into play based on your observations?  I don't think many sane people would leave a H and kids because the H liked Britney Spears.  Or becaue the H liked comic books or wrestling or didn't age well (all reasons my W has given).  I know I'm far from perfect, but not as bad as what she is making me out to be.  Does a WAS make mountains out of molehills or base decisions on sane concepts?

Thundarr, I believe that is the relevant and pressing question, here...

A WAS...  a person "desperate" enough to leave an M, will make up reasons to leave an M, no matter how sane they might otherwise be...

What was the WAS's reason to M in the first place?  Were they simply caught up in the hormones?  Were they drunk and "agreed" to a 4am M in Las Vegas?  Were they at a transition at the time of M and made some personality changes which, now...  years later...  they find they really do not like...  they realize, after all these years that they really do not want to tolerate the H who goes hunting with his buddies every spring and fall, because while they THOUGHT they could tolerate hunting, they really want to believe that meat comes from the store and some factory and not from a living animal...  and they choose to become vegan...

People don't have to be MLC to change their minds...  people change their minds and make course corrections throughout their lives...

And the person who becomes less and less tolerant of something they THOUGHT they could live with but really can't...  well...  these people may try to "break it to the LBS, gently..."  But if the LBS really is slow to take the hint, or begins to behave like many LBS are want to...  clinging, begging, crying...  well, the WAS MIGHT give them another change, but it might be just as likely that they will become desperate themselves, and start making up excuses...  lame or not...  in order to use the LBS's anger as a vehicle to agree to the sep and ultimately the D...

It's in the nature of humans to do what they might, outside of their comfort zone...  outside of their character...  in order to escape something they truly feel is toxic...

So the question remains...  Are they "lying" (in desperation)...?  Or are they crazy (in MLC)...?