[Dontgiveup]

From the articles

Key Components of a Midlife Crisis
•Depression - Covert & Overt
•The Urge to Abandon
•Infidelity
•Blaming or Projecting (Denial of Responsibility)
•Personality Changes or Mood Swings
•Depression

[kaffe diem]

A WAS...  a person "desperate" enough to leave an M, will make up reasons to leave an M, no matter how sane they might otherwise be...

People don't have to be MLC to change their minds...  people change their minds and make course corrections throughout their lives...

As an intellectual debate, I'm sure that one could argue the logic does not necessarily follow...

But one thing is for certain...  WAS leave their M...  just as determined as someone who is MLC...

And again, that's where, such as in the example above, that the LBS really needs to clear their heads and figure out how to "be the change" that they have gleaned from the complaints and concerns of the WAS as soon as possible and if they truly want to save their M, they will make changes that they feel are appropriate and that they can live with and become the better spouse and parent and stick the changes and make them real...  so that the WAS can notice and believe those changes...  and that possibly, they will reconsider...

Time is VERY important dependent on WAS or MLC...

An LBS has lots of time, even post D, to make changes, become a great person, and if the spouse in MLC comes out of the tunnel, they will notice and might come to the conclusion that they want to R...  5 years down the road...

A WAS...  it appears to me...  has made their choice and has been working diligently to set in motion the method by which to leave for potentially years prior to BD...  and BD might appears just as "out of the blue" as the BD of a person in MLC...  and to the LBS...  perhaps just as un-rational or unreasonable...

The reasons...?  Maybe not so much...  People can be pretty creative when it comes to making up reasons and excuses why we do or do not want to do something...  like jumping out of a perfectly good airplane, for example...

[kaffe diem]

From the articles

Key Components of a Midlife Crisis
•Depression - Covert & Overt
•The Urge to Abandon
•Infidelity
•Blaming or Projecting (Denial of Responsibility)
•Personality Changes or Mood Swings
•Depression

Yes, DGU...  it's important to look at the big picture here and the multiple facets of the components and facets of MLC...  and how difficult it is to try to distinguish between the rational and irrational actions and thoughts of a person...  For the same reason I suspect that the medical community can't or won't place MLC in the text books...

People who are in transitional times...  that is very real...  people who end up in crisis, which revolve around these transitional periods, are truly in crisis...  it is very real...

I believe I read somewhere that in some cases, MLC is actually noticeable or described as such only AFTER the fact...  I can't quote the source, but it's something that stuck in my mind...

Maybe this discussion really is moot...  for idle conversation or animated discussions over tea and crumpets...

As LL indicated, it doesn't really matter...  well, maybe it DOES matter, but really...  does it really matter...

What we most certainly understand is, WAS or MLC...  the techniques is the same...

And perhaps it needs to be understood that, regardless of which, the actions of the LBS regarding their own personal growth and journey, should begin as immediately as possible...

And the while the reasons will most likely be relevant (unless the WAS is exaggerating or lying in order to soften the blow or force the issue) because the reasons of a WAS are real whereas the reasons a MLCer gives could just as easily be bogus and send us on wild goose chases...

Making real, positive, permanent changes in the LBS is the important part, and making changes that aren't true to us, no matter how much we want to save the M, is simply a sign of co-dependence in the LBS...

IDK...

[StandandDeliver]

Kaffe, I see what you mean - I look at my sitch and even at BD H was not "sure" of what he was doing. He came back to me for a month and at the end of the month I was the one who told him to leave because i did not understand his bizarre behaviour - desperate to hang on to me one minute, distant, cold and unfeeling the next - this went on for a month. If I had known about MLC (at the time I assumed he was simply a WAS btw because it did not really occur to me that H was having a mlc ) i may have behaved differently, but then again i was so hurt and upset, it may not have made a difference.

i agree that someone who has decided on an affair as an exit strategy may not show a range of behaviours that a person in crisis shows...

for instance, an inability to look after the needs of the children that they leave behind...

[StillStanding]

But I want to submit that IT DOES MATTER whether they are MLC or WAS, in respect to time.  Time is crucial...  Because if a betrayer is a WAS, they may have characteristics of MLC, such as certain PDs or depression, etc...  But their thoughts are otherwise fairly clear.  They have come to a conclusion that the M is not savable and they are intent on moving out, when they feel it is safe to, and often with at the very least, quasi rational plan and time frame.

In that regard, the positive actions of the LBS is imperative NOW.  The WAS is not in the so called MLC "fog" and so there will be no "awakening" and realization of the damage done.  They are aware of the damage and are to the best of their ability, probably trying to minimize the damage along the way.  And once everything is done, they won't be looking back, whether they left in anger or they left in what they feel is the best peace they feel they could muster.

I'm not sure what you are getting at; in both cases, it is important to work on the detachment, or forgiveness, or 180s, or whatever it is you need to do NOW. Not for the sake of whether or not you can change your spouse's mind, or speed them through the tunnel, but because it will make you healthier and happier NOW.

It's entirely possible -- likely, even -- that a non-MLCing walkaway spouse can have a similar awakening. It may not be as dramatic as some of the "coming out of the tunnel" stories that we hear, but just as your spouse grew to love you, then married you, then grew away from you (MLCing or not), they can swing back towards you once again.

* Living by themselves may not be as fulfilling as they thought.
* The dating scene isn't very promising.
* Their finances are a lot more precarious.
* They still interact with you because of kids, friends and family, or social or work-related obligations.

If you want to put it as a (simplified) rational proposition, there are two cases:

1) The spouse is leaving because they are in an unhappy relationship. The window for which you have an opportunity to change their mind closes in a year.
2) The spouse is going through MLC. The timeframe for this particular MLC is 3-4 years before they come out of the tunnel.

In those two cases, it is a rational decision to do the self-work now, so that you can try to beat the 1-year deadline. If it is MLC, then you have an extra 2-3 years to make the changes and improvements a lasting habit.

[Thundarr]

The difference between lying and crazy is hugely relevant to me. If I were convinced that my W had truly thought out her decision to leave over a period of time and was making a rational, conscious choice then I would have little to no interest in standing.  Truly, it is the times that I feel she is lucid and of a sound mind that I give up hope and just want to walk away and start playing the huge, huge field that is out there.  Then, in the times that I don't feel she is in her right mind I want to stand for her and for the M as I would NEVER consider abandoning her if she were ill.  In other words, if she just honestly doesn't want to be with me then I don't want her.  IF she's nuts then I will wait to see if she returns to sanity before making a decision.  The litmus test for me will probably be if she is clear enough to carry through with the D.  I can't say for sure, but that will probably be it for me.  The discovery of a true OM might as well but I'm not at that point yet.

The fact that she's a different person even to the kids really makes me lean toward MLC as I could find no logical reason for a sane person to completely change personalities to such a degree.

So, DGU, no infidelity = no MLC?  That wasn't present in your case as I remember either.  So, how many of the factors have to be present.

[kaffe diem]

I want to toss in something else here, too...  SS, I understand what you are saying, for sure...  I think your 2 case proposition is accurate...

Sometimes when we're looking for an answer, we might loose sight of what the question truly is...

I know OP says this a lot, probably others as well...  "It is great to stand, just make sure that it's not 'still'..."...

Thundarr, true enough, there's something going on in each individuals psyche that we all go through in order to make decisions that "work for us"...  while all decisions and choices made by an individual are ABOUT that individual, there are...  extraneous affects of those choices and we may or may not forget that the input and feedback of others who are will be affected by our choices, should be taken into consideration...

Such as our choice to stand...  and for how long...

For example, if a spouse is not MLC...  does a LBS simply "give up" after...  say...  one year post D...

In other cases, like Thundarr expresses...  how much weight does one give to obvious lying...?  Whether that be blatant lying or lying by omission or any other form...  We have a tendency, not sure rightly or wrongly, to want to believe that when our spouse could be so disrespectful, that we want to excuse it by suggesting an irrational mind of MLC...  even though we understand that, MLC or not, poor choices are poor choices and...  we then need to choose, as the betrayed LBS, our ability to forgive...

What do we trust?  How do we trust?

Like the joke about the litmus test above, a WAS would believe we hate them and the MLC might think we're pursuing...  our choice to accept a truth of a WAS that they want out...  or misunderstanding and believing the claim of the MLCer that they want out...

We choose to stand, in the face of our WAS or MLCer "executive decisions"...  but do we stand in denial...  the "fool" as it were...  or alternatively, do we exit on false information...?

[Dontgiveup]

Thundarr

"So, DGU, no infidelity = no MLC?  That wasn't present in your case as I remember either."

My wife was not actively involved with an affair at bomb drop....BUT part of bomb drop was her telling me she had every intention of finding who she was supposed to be with, and wanted me to do the same.


"The litmus test for me will probably be if she is clear enough to carry through with the D."

It's not that uncommon for MLCers to carry through with the divorce, so I'm not sure a divorce represents clarity.  I am divorced, and her Boomerang behavior continues.  Is that clarity?  Remember too, that once the MLCer is completely submerged in the tunnel, they do feel certain of the decision.....for now and for quite a while.

In my case, every one of the factors were present except the active infidelity.

[honour]

Before all this happened in my life I had heard of the term Mid Life crisis but I didn't know anything about it.

When my W first returned to the country after I found out about the adultery and I had spoken to her in the car on way home from airport and briefly at home she was just so strange I asked her "[insert W's name] are you well?" She replied, "I don't know".

So whether we call it WAS or MLC we can only judge and decide from what we see and hear are our Ws/Hs do and say. On one occasion right near the start my daughter was very upset with her mother and was asking her questions as to why she had done what she had done and W became almost hysterical to the point where I became concerned for W's mental well-being .

So if WAS is a sane person making a mature, adult decision to leave a relationship then my W is not a WAS. She was making a decision to leave the relationship but nothing about it seemed sane, adult or mature.

What she is like now I have no idea because she is so far away and total NC. The children don't see or communicate with her either. Would a healthy person effectively divorce themselves from their own children? We can only hope she comes to no harm.

Each case is individual, some may be WAS, and others depressed, unstable and unwell, what we call MLC. Only you can decide for your own case.

honour

[kaffe diem]

Really interesting and great conversation...

So now, what if we add in the filter of, "Believe none of what they say and only 50% of what they do."

What are the actual ACTIONS of a MLC as compared to a WAS?  Is there anything there that can offer up clues?

Certainly, we know that both WAS and MLC can have affairs, or not...

We also know that anyone, at any time, can choose to change their friends or their hair or their wardrobe or their car...

I believe it's a given that like with the changes of a LBS, it's consistency over time...  is there a parallel in the WAS or MLC where consistency over time in actions, shows a pattern?