[Rollercoasterider]

MLC & Experts

What makes someone an expert in MLC?

• Being in one?
• Going through one?
• Being the spouse, caregiver or primary observer of someone in MLC?
• Having been the spouse, caregiver or primary observer of someone who wen through MLC?
• Studying MLC?
• Studying in an accredited academic program?
• All of the Above?
• None of the above?
• All of the above including the none of the above option?
• Some of the above?
• A different some of the above?

All of us and none of us are experts. I have studied MLC on my own—though I hold a graduate degree it is not in psychology or MLC; it’s in writing. The last (and only) Psychology class took was my junior year in High School—not college, High school.
Jim Conway, on the otherhand, has a PhD specializing in Adult Development and if I’m recalling correctly, his thesis was on midlife. He was completing his studies—or had just completed his studies—as he wrote Men in Midlife Crisis and went though his own MLC. He also has an M.A. in Psychology.
HeartsBlessing, like me, has studied MLC by observing her spouse and through observing others in forums. She studied Jim’s book and wrote a revised version of Jim’s 6 Stages of Midlife Crisis. Her version is a great improvement—in my opinion. She gave more examples and she’s a better writer.
Stayed is like HeartBlessing and my Self; she has been through her spouse’s MLC and her marriage is intact.
Jim’s perspective is from the MLCer, but his book targets both the MLCer as well as their spouse and his late wife Sally Conway wrote several books from the spouse’s perspective.

But are any of us experts?
I am no more an expert on your MLCer than the information you give me.
If the only information is that you think your spouse is in MLC and you contact me through this site, I will have a few assumptions.

I will assume you have read my definition of MLC and for you it is a marriage crisis—you aren’t a co-worker gossiping to me about that crazy guy in the next cubicle who you think is having a midlife crisis.
I will assume your spouse meets most of my Key Components of a Midlife Crisis.

• Depression—Covert & Overt
• The Urge to Abandon
• Infidelity
• Blaming or Projecting (Denial of Responsibility)
• Personality Changes or Mood Swings

But notice I said they will meet most, not all. They may meet all and they may not yet but will later. But those components that remain unmet open up a variety of pathways.

• Is the depression overt or covert? Those will manifest differently which will yiled different dynamics. How is the urge to abandon manifesting?
• Did the MLCer leave right away, leave and keep visiting, leave and come home a day later, move to the boat, move in with the alienator but say they don’t want a divorce…
• Is the alienator a fantasy person—not real at all, an emotional affair, a physical affair, married, in their own MLC, younger, older, the same age…?

I don’t know your MLCer. I glean tidbits of guesses from what you give me and that is all I have to go on. That certainly should not qualify me as an expert.

I have my agenda and purpose.
Stayed has hers.
OldPilot has his.
And so on…

When I post I try to balance. I try to support my moderators even while they are disagreeing with each other. I try to see all sides. That is one my main methods.

Stayed has a tough love style; set boundaries and protect yourself. StillStanding focuses on the Unconditionals.

Experts and Sources
Sometimes one person’s expertise may be in the work of someone else. Don’tGiveUp probably knows my online articles as well as I do OR BETTER. If we were to be tested on my online writings, I’d bet on him to score higher than I would unless the test is open book in which case I could use my computer to search all of my notes and my versions that have been revised since posting; basically I could cheat. His expertise is not limited to my writings or mine and Jim Conway’s, but we are sources.

I use Jim & Sally Conway, HeartBlessing, Jung, Murray Stein, James Hollis et al. as sources. My articles come from these and other written sources and even more from reading and participating in the forum. I’m not sitting on an island just thinking this stuff up.
Someone once asked me a question and told me what I could not use as an answer. I can’t recall the precise question, but it was something to do with Sweetheart and relationships and she said I could not use love as my answer. Huh? Love was the answer and she knew it. It is inappropriate to ask a question and refuse to accept a valid answer. Let each person choose their sources and be an expert in what it is they know.

An expert in evolution had better be familiar with Darwin, so it would be unfair to limit certain answers about evolution to nothing from Darwin. A New Testament Biblical expert probably knows a lot about the apostle Paul, it would be unfair to ask that person about the Book of Galatians and require Paul not be a part of his answer.

Tough Love & Unconditionals
Some of the things we need to be careful of are shoulds. Yes we should protect ourselves, protect our assets and protect our children. But what we should do to protect those things varies. It is sometimes appropriate to kick the MLCer to the curb when he moved home and continues to see the alienator or simply refuses to participate and work toward reconciliation. But being sometimes appropriate does not mean it is the best action in all situations. It is sometimes appropriate to allow an MLCer to move home when they ask, but not always.

Sometimes there are two separate groups.
Tough Love
Unconditionals

The Tough Lovers think the Unconditionalers are Doormats, attached or enabling.
The Unconditionalers think the Tough Lovers are too harsh, not compassionate, mean and judgmental.

And sometimes both groups are correct. But not always and maybe not even often.
If you must know, I fall toward the side of the Unconditionals. But I know that I need help balancing and so I need the Tough Love group to bring me back to the center.

But neither group has expertise in what to do in each situation. Sometimes advice that is opposite may be right—you could do this or that and whichver you choose might benefit your Stand or benefit your healing or benefit whatever needs benefitting. Sometimes it is more beneficial to lean to one side or the other and it is almost always a tightrope walk between.

[Anjae]

Thanks for this Post RCR.

Tough Love & Unconditionals
Some of the things we need to be careful of are shoulds. Yes we should protect ourselves, protect our assets and protect our children. But what we should do to protect those things varies. It is sometimes appropriate to kick the MLCer to the curb when he moved home and continues to see the alienator or simply refuses to participate and work toward reconciliation. But being sometimes appropriate does not mean it is the best action in all situations. It is sometimes appropriate to allow an MLCer to move home when they ask, but not always.

Think his is very important. One size does not fit all and does not fit all the stages of the crisis.

Sometimes there are two separate groups.
Tough Love
Unconditionals

The Tough Lovers think the Unconditionalers are Doormats, attached or enabling.
The Unconditionalers think the Tough Lovers are too harsh, not compassionate, mean and judgmental.

And sometimes, a LBS jumps group. I was more the second in the beginning of my husband MLC and now I'm more the first. As an Unconditionalers I always had some traces of Tough Love, and as a Tough Lover I always have traces of the Unconditionals.

[With Gods Help!]

Thanks RCR.......
                          I think im an in between-er depending on were or what my h is doing or how he is acting... its a tightrope for
                          sure xxxxxxxxxxx

[Thundarr]

MLC & Experts

What makes someone an expert in MLC?

• Being in one?
• Going through one?
• Being the spouse, caregiver or primary observer of someone in MLC?
• Having been the spouse, caregiver or primary observer of someone who wen through MLC?
• Studying MLC?
• Studying in an accredited academic program?
• All of the Above?
• None of the above?
• All of the above including the none of the above option?
• Some of the above?
• A different some of the above?

For my $.02, I meet most if not all the criteria you listed and consider myself anything but an expert in this.  My graduate degree is in Marriage and Family Therapy and my undergrad (as well as a few grad courses) is in Psychology and this goes against many of the common knowledge in many ways.  The personality shift from how my W was to how she has been the past few months is not only perplexing but deeply disturbing.  I shudder to think that I could become a person who selfishly neglects his family and mistreats those who love me, as well as disavowing my faith and destroying the respect my children have of me.  I still deeply want my marriage to survive and will work toward that until I feel it is truly hopeless, but there is little in the academic studies I have had thus far that has prepared me to deal with this crisis.

Do I want to be an expert in this someday?  Absolutely.  I now know that to be a truly effective marriage counselor I HAVE to be able to take into account that someone may be going through something that is influencing them to make the rash decisions that would send most LBSes running for the hills.  Had I not found this site and LifeTwo, and had not had the resources of doctorate-level psychologists to look to, I might well have already been divorced and moving on with my life.  As it stands, I am stuck in that I don't know how I could live with myself if I did give up on her while she was going through this.  I certainly would hope she would stand for me were the tables reversed, although knowing what I do I would not want her to suffer as I have.  Perhaps one day my story will have a happy ending and my family will live again, but whether it does or not I still want to go forth and help others save their families. 

I work with children and when I first entered the field I was a believer in the saying "If you save just one child, then it was worth all your efforts."  Now I've changed my motto to "If I save just one child, it's not nearly enough."  I feel the same way about marriages and families.

[limitless]

I think that, unfortunately, there isn't enough known about - nor enough attention placed upon MLC - in the real world.  So, there aren't too many experts.  Even though the MLCer may act crazy - the MLCer is sane. 

Just about everything that I have read - pretty much says the same thing.  There is no cure - it cannot be avoided, nothing that the LBS can do about it.....etc. etc., etc.  Like the common cold, the only cure is time.  (a whole lotta endless time).

And, yes, there are two schools of thought on this board (and probably others, as well) - Tough love and the Unconditionals.  I have really tried the Unconditional and, honestly, I am pretty discouraged as my sitch has only gotten worse.  (Even though I had been forwarned that it would get worse before it gets better).  I think there are quite a few of us wondering actually when the "get better" part happens. 

Do I think my sitch would have "gotten better" with Tough Love?  No.  Honestly, at this point, I don't think it really matters.  H is deep, deep in Replay.  It is said that later the MLCer will remember that how the LBS treated him/her.  I guess I will just have to see if this ends up to be the case.

We LBS walk a very fine tightrope....showing Unconditional Love, while avoiding the doormat role......and Standing up for ourselves through Tough Love.....equally avoiding the role of the Woman Scorned.

Maybe we are all contributing to the beginning of MLC expertise - by sharing our stories here on this board?

No we are not experts.....but we have all live it, don't we?

Limitless

[WarriorPriestess]

Lol, I have friends who now refer to me as a "MLC expert" and say that they are definitely coming to me in the future if it ever pops up in their lives.  I think compared to the majority of the general population I would be an expert.  I have been avidly reading, researching, and documenting my own experiences for the last year and a half.  But I am also a continual student, with so much still to learn both in my relationship with H and also from the many wise people here on the board.  I really feel that I am meant to learn as much as possible about this condition so that in time I can help guide others down the road.  I hope that I will be guiding them from the comfort of a restored relationship with H.  I hope we all are able to reach that place in time.

[Dandy Lion]

I don't consider myself an expert or indeed vastly knowledgeable about MLC.  Having others on the forum and indeed RCR herself give advice is why I joined the forum in the first place.  Perhaps some of the advice does not work in my situation but one thing I know for sure, the advice given is the best I will find anywhere and comes from experience and research.

I want to get through my journey and come out the other end with my marriage intact and if I can help others by documenting what I am going through then that is fantastic.

[Mitzpah]

Limitless,
I agree with you here:

We LBS walk a very fine tightrope....showing Unconditional Love, while avoiding the doormat role......and Standing up for ourselves through Tough Love.....equally avoiding the role of the Woman Scorned.

This balance on this tightrope is sooooooooo very difficult. Most of the time I feel I am being the doormat - not for my h. because he doesn't see it, but for everyone else watching. So, I definitely do not feel I am anywhere close to being an expert on anything, not that I want to be. However, I do want to help others if I am given that privilege.

[stayed]

Seeing as I have been tagged a "TOUGH LOVE" stander, I would like to take this opportunity to say, I actually believe the TOUGH LOVE is for ourselves.  Believe me, I was not tough whatsoever when my h first dropped this on me.  I wish I had been, as much, much less damage would have been done to me, if I had been.  Unfortunately, there is no way of preventing how we react on discovery, it is simply part of a very painful process, with only one way out which is through it. 

I wish I had adopted the Tough Love stance much sooner.  Once I finally found that stance, I was able to detach, step away from the "raw pain", depersonalize a very personal situation and look within myself, without feeling BOUND or OBLIGATED to my MLCer.   Believe it or not, having been married or almost 30 years, I felt VERY OBLIGATED to give my husband the "benefit of the doubt".   I actually felt I OWED it to him, to look after him, just like I would have if he were physically ill.  I discovered feeling obligated was not helpful, that this was something that needed a fresh, new way of being looked at.  Feeling obligated/bound, simply restricted and prevented the healing that was required in order to truly evaluate the situation.  As unloving as my opinion is, I believe making decisions based on cold reality were more honest and true. Wrapping myself up in the "unconditional love" concept, prevented honest, open contemplation.  Clear headed thinking.

Sorry, but I believe this is an opportunity to rebuild your life, with or without the spouse.  Admitedly, I am not a DIE HARD "save the marriage" at all costs.  I just don't believe ANYTHING is that hard and fast.  To me, this nightmare was dropped at our feet, we owe it to ourselves to look closely and decide if we REALLY wish to remain married.  We certainly didn't start this mess, whether it could have been us, just as much as our spouses,  we will never know, what happened has happened.  WE didn't start it but we do have a say and a lot of control in the outcome.  We owe it to ourselves to at least EXAMINE this possibility. 

In order to come to terms with what was happening in our lives, I had to FREE myself from the vows, obligations, history we shared.  Once I was able to detach, then I was better able to move more towards the center.  As you said RCR you were more a Unconditional but you NEEDED the comments the opinions of the "tough love" to move to the center.  Believe me, I am no less centered then you are, even if it is the other way around... comments from the UNCONDITIONALS to soften my stance. 

I happen to believe it is easier to soften up, then it is to harden up.  Of course that is probably because my nature leans more towards, "get up you fool, the wolves will get you, if you lay there".   I expect for a softer more compassionate type, the reverse is easier. 

I do not see myself as an EXPERT... not in the least.  I have NO MORE IDEA what anybody else's MLCer will or will not do, then they do!  Nor have I ever pretended I did!  I wish, then I really could help.  The only thing I know for sure is the only person we can control is OURSELVES and we should always try to be true to ourselves.  Our priority should always be to sort OURSELVES out first, as that is the only way, wise choices and decisions can be made.  However one does it... is totally up to themselves. Which is something we do control!

hugs Stayed

[xyzcf]

Well, as many of you know..I am totally in the Unconditional category...and that is why Stayed's tough love approach  has been vital to my healing journey. I have no idea how tough love will affect the MLCer, I have no idea how Unconditional love will...but when I slide into my panic/dissociating/crisis.....the tough love approach has managed to get me back on my feet again.

Actually Stayed and DGU have been pretty "tough" on me at times.

Mostly, the support of this site has allowed me to get on  with my life. It is only in the past few months that I feel alive again..lately I have been thinking, two years of my life were spent in tears, not able to sleep, not able to eat....2 years I feel have been "lost".....I know, I've grown and learned things but that's a long time to feel so awful.

I value what people say here...my only concern is the few times that people turn on one another.. respect is necessary and even when I think that I am right and my way is the only way..I can learn from other's points of views.