[forthetrees]

I think that the bottom line is that timing matters. We here of course identify with your wife as we know first hand the devastation of being the LBS. I can honestly say it was the most painful experience of my life- it emotionally and physically flattened me. Do the ends justify the means? I could only agree if somehow you could undo the pain and loss of time that being a LBS leads to.

I have come out of the valley of sad, have maintained my LBS weight loss- one of the crazy silver linings, and have found an inner strength was heretofore untapped. I suppose that it is also a silver lining to know that that inner strength is there. I would have happily toodled along without discovering that in the LBS way.

I think that your postings only confirm the wayward spouses´focus on self to the detriment of their families. It is unfortunate that your wife did not choose the path of counseling. Though you are not religious, I do hope you believe in the Golden Rule. I also think that your postings here confirm the human tendency to rationalize behaviors and please understand that I think all humans do this, whether MLC, LBS or just existing in the "real" world.

Good luck to you. May you have learned some life lessons so that you may cherish Anna to the end. Maybe in some weird karmic way, the love you give to her will make its way back to your ex and in some way complete the circle.
FTT

[wkramer]

...I am saying that affairs hurt people. Full stop. You say you are sorry about that, so on some level you must realise that is the case but you then contradict yourself by stating your wife didn't really care, if that is true what ARE you sorry about?

In my own circumstances (and I repeat - everyone's circumstances are different) my ex-wife was ambivalent about the end of our marriage. That doesn't mean that other people weren't caused pain by my actions and I regret that.

You clearly feel that your own personal "happiness" justifies hurting how many others? Just one person, or maybe some kids too, or maybe some extended family or old friends? Here is a question for you. Is hurting people truly ok if it is for "love"? Presumably you once loved your first wife too? So when love fades you can start hurting people in search of gratification and love? Hurting how many others? You said that you were truly sorry. Why be sorry if you did not hurt anyone? Nothing to be sorry for.

I don't "clearly" feel that my happiness justifies hurting other people. But I can't help thinking that you are trying to frame the question in black-and-white terms when the reality of most people's lives is shades of grey.

And what do you think of the opinion that some people hold that we are all internally responsible for our own happiness? So
placing the expectation of being "made happy" by someone else is dooming most relationships to failure.

I once read somewhere that marriages fail when  one or both partners see the PRIMARY role of marriage to make each other happy. Because life is such that the minute we experience a feeling of unhappiness, we then project the failure of our personal happiness onto the person who was supposed to be maintaining it for us, rather than looking at ourselves and how we treat others and engage with them and addressing other aspects of our lives.

I think if you are relying on someone else to make you happy, i.e. that is the only source of your happiness, then you are probably making a big mistake.

Thank God not all lives are the same, and honour and loyalty and promises still mean something to some people.

I suppose when you visit a site like this as the "enemy" you should expect a few cheap shots. In your case your reasoning is good and well argued. I don't really think it needs the jibes.

[wkramer]

According to Wikipedia (hardly the most authoritative of sources but nonetheless)
Old Norse trú, "faith, word of honour; religious faith, belief"

So in the same vain, you do not believe in the truth either.

Who's truth?

The Lutheran "truth" of my wife's family (not really since Finland is probably one of the most atheist countries on earth but you get the point)

The Catholic "truth" of my ex-wife's family?

The Islamic "truth" of many of my former colleagues in the Middle East?

The Mormon "truth" of one of my former colleagues?

Etc, etc...

In my opinion a problem with many sites like this is "groupthink". People might not like the answers I give but they will be an honest evaluation of what led me to where I am now.

You are on a forum that is dedicated to people standing for their marriages, what would you expect? That is like going on a forum of people that cook and post "do you all live in a kitchen?"

I was simply pointing out that I have been as honest as possible with any replies I've posted and recognising that many posters here wouldn't like the answers.

[NoRegrets]

I'm actually curious, since you've been so honest.

Any indication yet from Anna that she's got the emotional problems I would expect to see in a woman who has no respect for marriage or family?

Your children with your first wife had a father, the man she set her sights on. She poached you from your first family. Yes, you are responsible for your own actions. But one might suppose that she has no moral compunction about inserting herself between you and your children and between you and your wife; she no doubt encouraged you to lie and cheat. This is not a woman I admire, and not only for her lack of morals. You see, I have good reason to understand that her actions are indicative of deep flaws in her character, and they belie her emotional maturity or stability--or lack thereof.

Any signs yet?

[wkramer]

I can honestly say it was the most painful experience of my life- it emotionally and physically flattened me.

I know that what we did caused feelings like that for Anna's husband. As I have said before I regret that our behavior caused him pain like that.

Good luck to you. May you have learned some life lessons so that you may cherish Anna to the end.

Thank you. After your experiences it is very kind of you to say that.

I'm sure I learnt some important life lessons along the way. Whilst I'm sure you'll believe that the ends didn't justify the means I can assure you that I do intend to cherish her to the end.

[wkramer]

I'm actually curious, since you've been so honest.

Any indication yet from Anna that she's got the emotional problems I would expect to see in a woman who has no respect for marriage or family?

Your children with your first wife had a father, the man she set her sights on. She poached you from your first family. Yes, you are responsible for your own actions. But one might suppose that she has no moral compunction about inserting herself between you and your children and between you and your wife; she no doubt encouraged you to lie and cheat. This is not a woman I admire, and not only for her lack of morals. You see, I have good reason to understand that her actions are indicative of deep flaws in her character, and they belie her emotional maturity or stability--or lack thereof.

Any signs yet?

Whilst it is obvious the question wasn't meant sincerely let me answer just for the sake of clarity.

No.

[NoRegrets]

Oh, the question was asked in all sincerity.

Perhaps it is a little painful to consider seriously, however. That's up to you.

[wkramer]

Oh, the question was asked in all sincerity.

Perhaps it is a little painful to consider seriously, however. That's up to you.

There is no pain in considering it seriously.

I love her. She loves me.

It might not be a popular opinion here but sometimes (occasionally maybe - I'm prepared to admit that) wonderful things flower from less than ideal circumstances.

[nesquick2]

wk  i know you traced the forum from your blog, but can i ask what makes you post on here as we are lbs. most of us are standing for marriage and relationships. what are you getting from this forum 

[wkramer]

wk  i know you traced the forum from your blog, but can i ask what makes you post on here as we are lbs. most of us are standing for marriage and relationships. what are you getting from this forum 

I figured some of you were interested in the other side of the story? That certainly was why the first few posts were written. People seemed to have questions and I felt obligated to answer them.

Have I overstayed my welcome?