[Thundarr]

As I promised AnneJ on my thread I would post the info I gleaned from my discussion with the long-time Doctor of Psychology I have the pleasure of working alongside.  I told him I had some general questions but I think he probably realized my level of questioning was a bit personal.  I decided to post this on a separate thread so that those who don't normally check my thread could be party to the info.  I did not solve the puzzle of MLC, but I certainly came away with some good perspectives of what it might be and how it's perceived by the academia.

On whether or not MLC exists and why it is not recognized by the medical and psychological community:  "It is possible that MLC exists, but when you are dealing with a radical personality change before you can make an accurate diagnosis you have to first rule out medical causes.  Several things such as brain tumors, brain injuries, peri and menopause, andropause and many diseases can cause a drastic personality change."  He went on to tell me the story of a local man who was very successful and suddenly began acting much younger.  His W ordered an MIW on him due to concerns for his welfare and the doctor ordered a CT scan on the man.  What he found was "frontal lobe atrophy" which can occur around 40-50 in males and females and is a precursor to dementia and Alzheimers.  He said that they symptoms can lessen and the person seem like they are returning to normal, but the condition is irreversible and they will inevitably worsen as they age further.  This was news to me, both about the term as well as the fact that no diagnosis can be accurately made without ruling out a medical component.  I wonder if the frontal lobe atrophy may have to do with how some never "come out of the tunnel" so to speak.

On why we should not take what they say or do personally:  We know that if a person is a good person at heart who is very caring, they cannot simply become what looks like sociopaths overnight.  If the person cared before and was empathetic to others' feelings then they will always be that way barring a severe traumatic event such as going to war.  But, even then the core person remains.  He said we should know and accept that the things they do are NOT personal even though they look and feel that way for sure.  If the person were really that way then they would have been that way all along and their lack of regard for others would have shown up in all facets of their life.  He stressed again not to take their words or actions personal.  This is why I thought he might have picked up on it being about me.

On other possible causes for what we term MLC:  He said that some people to become good at hiding behind their jobs or their friends and covering up parts of their personality that are undesirable or that they just don't want others to know about.  When they can no longer hide behind their jobs or the people around them, or when they begin to realize that the people around them have begun to figure them out they may stop hiding and expose their true selves.  This often happens with borderline patients who are able to function in society but are often screaming inside their heads.  They are able to compartmentalize by suppressing those aspects of their personalities.  Notice that this does not contradict with the previous paragraph as the core person never changes, but rather the undesirable traits simply come to light.  I wonder now if my W may fit this description.

He has some literature to give me on how brain functions affect personality and such.  He said that if a personality change happens then it obviously has something to do with the brain or brain chemistry. That was another reason he said not to take it personally as there has to be something wrong upstairs, but we have no way of knowing what it is.  We also discussed his views on covert depression and whether or not they could compartmentalize enough to function in their jobs and society but not be able to function emotionally, and his response was that was possible due to the fact that industrialized societies teach people to do that anyway as the focus is on achievement and attainment.  To me this gives credence to the theory that collectivist societies do not suffer from this epidemic. 

I have alot more to share that we talked about and will post it as I remember it.  I've had a margarita already tonight (strong) and am getting ready for another so it may be tomorrow or the weekend.  I was fascinated by the convo and look forward to picking his brain more when the opportunity arises.  Perhaps the events of the last month really were meant to be for the best.  But again, a good day in Hell is still a day in Hell.

[kikki]

Thundarr - thank you so much for posting his thoughts/opinion on this.
As you know - I've always been really interested in the brain aspect of this, and have always believed the root cause to be non functioning brains - for whatever reason.

His W ordered an MIW on him due to concerns for his welfare and the doctor ordered a CT scan on the man.  What he found was "frontal lobe atrophy" which can occur around 40-50 in males and females and is a precursor to dementia and Alzheimers.  He said that they symptoms can lessen and the person seem like they are returning to normal, but the condition is irreversible and they will inevitably worsen as they age further.

What's a MIW?
This is really interesting, but a scary thought at the same time.
They also know now that depression reduces blood flow to the pre frontal cortex, so I guess could give similar personality and behaviour changes?  But might be more temporary?  Or not?

I wonder if the frontal lobe atrophy may have to do with how some never "come out of the tunnel" so to speak.

Or ongoing depression, could be another reason??  Or anything that damages the pre frontal cortex beyond repair?

He said we should know and accept that the things they do are NOT personal even though they look and feel that way for sure.  If the person were really that way then they would have been that way all along and their lack of regard for others would have shown up in all facets of their life.  He stressed again not to take their words or actions personal

Agree.  Poor brain function leads to bad behaviour, and decisions.

Do you know if he is a fan (or not) of Dr Daniel Amen's brain scanning work?

Looking forward to hearing more....

[kikki]

Here's the link to my thread where I took Dr Amen's Brain Health Survey on behalf of my MLC H.

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1771.0

[Thundarr]

Kikki,

MIW stands for Mental Inquest Warrant.  It's what someone tries to have served on someone who they feel may be a danger to themselves or others.  A judge has to sign it and a Qualified Mental Health Professional has to do an assessment on the person within a set period of time to determine if they meet the criteria to be hospitalized.  I did one on a co-worker 12 years ago and he was committed to a mental hospital for 6 months.  He's okay now and has been thankful to me in our interactions since as he was a danger to himself at the time. 

Anyway, I will ask him about Amen's work.  I know that we now accept that teenager's brains are not fully formed and as such they do not have the decision-making abilities that adults do.  It is for this reason that the field is moving away from diagnosing children as having Conduct Disorder and now even Oppositional Defiant Disorder as it may simply be that they have not matured developmentally.  If an injury or, as you stated, a significant decrease in blood flow happens to this area of the brain then the judgment and emotional regulation are impaired.  This may very well be why we see our spouses exhibit "Monster" behaviors and say things that no person in their right mind would say as they are so cruel.  They truly have no regulation of what they say or how much it hurts someone.  Kind of reminds me of the old lady from the Golden Girls who would say anything and everything with no way of controlling what came out of her mouth.  Truly no one with any type of self-control would say some of the hateful things I have heard my W say.  Or, anyone with any judgment at all would not say some of the absolutely stupid things my W has said (I hate you because you watch wrestling!!).

I hope this is helpful.

[kikki]

Ah, thank you for explaining.

Very interesting about the teenage brain too, and yes agree - your W has said the craziest things to you that make ZERO sense.  It is such a shame that she doesn't have a bung knee, instead of a bung brain (along with all of the other MLCers) - this is what makes this all so tough. 
It's a very cruel 'illness' for the family.

Thanks so much T

[Anjae]

Thank you so much Thundarr. I will read with more detail tomorrow. I already gave it a quick read and it has some very interesting thoughts.

Hugs, A

[Trustandlove]

I, too, had just a quick read; hope to be able to get to it in more depth at some point.

The thing that jumped out at me was the bit about the caring person, only because in a conversation with my H at the weekend (first face-to-face we'd had in over a year) I saw that; that the good, caring person he was at his core was still there.....  other factors jumbled on top, however.  But that's just a quick hit; no time to go into it now. 

[Anjae]

My SIL, I and the doctor from husband’s company wanted my husband to be tested for  hyperthyroidism because SIL and MIL were diagnosed with it and both needed surgery. We were wanting husband to get tested ages before he left. As soon as my SIL found out her mood swing and depressions came from the hyperthyroidism she talked to her brother and insisted we would get tested. He never did it.

I know MCLers physical appearance changes a lot but in late 2009 my husband was terrible thin, like he had come out of a concentration camp. Then, early 2010 he was swallen. Now, this could be just the crisis or it could be hyperthyroidism or crisis + hyperthyroidism. SIL and MIL had severe weight problems and oscillations until they took surgery. I always though hyperthyroidism could be a reason for husband’s behaviour before, right after and during the crisis.

My husband’s always had some not very desirable traits so he was not hiding them for 20 years. And he knew he had them, never pretend he did not have them. He would, on occasions, become very irritable and gloomy since he was young. But nothing compared to MLC monster. Again, if, like his relatives, he has hyperthyroidism that could explain his moods and the two or three depression he suffered since the late 90’s.

But none of that has made the caring and devoted man go away nor has he been awful with me. The hating me thing started not long before he left. Same for blaming me about everything under the sun.

Right now, and for the past 6 years I have no idea where the caring, kind, considered man I meet is. He may be being all that but not to me. I know ti is not personal but it is weird having to deal with all that projection, hear what they say, and see them tranfering affection and financial protection to someone else. Hard not to take it personal. If they would remain on their own and were not capable of behaving no nice and gently with everyone else things would be a little easier. I think it is a case of the caring person to be buried under anger, rage, hurt, maybe several health problems that have not been diagnosed.

Agree, a brain chemical change has occurred for them to change personality so much. That is valid for depression, hyperthyroidism, menopause, peri menopause, andropause, and many, many other things. Problem is there is no way we are going to be able to have our MCLers to go to a doctor and get tested for a series of things.

Also agree with the possibility of covert depression and the capacity to compartmentalise. Collectivist societies (and on primitive societies) do not, as far as my knowledge’s of history and anthropology goes, suffer from MLC. I’ve wrote a little bit about it on Kikki’s previous thread. It is what I refer as the soul being broken. We only feed ourselves material stuff, are all about achievement and success. That has a price and it is a very high one.

Kikki, I fear my husband’s never ending high replay actions will damage is brain forever. I even used to have dream about it. The dreams were in the future and he was on a health farm, totally incapable of recognise me or having any idea what had happened to him.

[calamity]

I don't know if this is the correct way to reply but...
This topic is ringing bells for me.  Because I cannot understand my husband's behaviour, because it is all so completely out of character, I have always had a suspicion that there might be something going on that is not explained by any psychological theories.  Last week I was doing a web search for any scientific research on mlc.  All I can find is the MacArthur Foundation study that said mlc did not really exist and a few discussions of hormone-related mlc.  I am going to ask my doctor what she thinks.
Yes I know I shouldn't be focusing on HIS problem but, imagine if there was a physical cause for all this.  I know I excused myself for some very bad behaviour caused by monthly hormonal fluctuations--I was horrible.  It took me ten years to realise that my husband and I had awful fights.  Once a month.
What if?  Med & psych students take note.  Wide open field of research here.  And please invent a pill while you're at it.

[Trustandlove]

Just to add; before BD I did realise something was very wrong; even H did to some degree (but he hadn't been telling me a lot of what he'd been doing...) -- and he had his thyroid tested, as his sister had been diagnosed with problems.  I remember really hoping that there was a physical cause.

That turned out not to be the case, but I do know that for some it is.   It is always worth checking out.